开云体育

ctrl + shift + ? for shortcuts
© 2025 Groups.io

Not Convinced


 

开云体育

You are correct in saying that the surface speed is important when machining on a lathe.? But surface speed depends upon spindle RPM and diameter of the part.? It has nothing to do with what the swing of the lathe is, other than that you obviously can’t machine a part larger in diameter than the swing.? You need to get a copy of the Atlas Manual of Lathe Operations (MOLO) that matches the 10F.? Download and read the MOLO history and version selection document from Files.? Prior to 1954, you can’t tell the version from information on the Copyright page because all 15 Editions just say Copyright 1937.

?

There is a diameter versus RPM versus SFM chart in the MOLO.

?

Robert Downs

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Stan Gorodenski
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 17:14
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

?


Therefore, the spindle rpm for my lathe has to be
increased by 37/7/31.42. The max direct rpm for the 12" is 2072 and so
this means the direct drive rpm for my 10" has to be? 2486 for the
surface speeds to be equal between the two swings (the 12" and the 10")

2486 seems to be too fast an rpm for my 10" lathe. Is this correct"?
Stan


 

开云体育

The Atlas 10” and Atlas built 12” came with the same 16 RPM list.? As I said before, what surface speed you need to be running depends upon three things – diameter of the work piece, material and sometimes heat treat condition ?of the work piece, and composition or type of cutter.? Swing of the lathe is never in the equation because you can’t swing a part that is larger than the lathe.

?

The 16 nominal speeds that all 10” and 12” Atlas machines will do are:

?

2072

1270

805

685

500

418

345

266

211

164

134

112

83

70

45

28

?

I think that the chart was originally based on a motor with an average RPM of 1725.? 1740 and 1750 are more commonly quoted today but the difference is only 1.5%.

?

The surface speed chart in the MOLO actually gives the nearest standard available speeds

?

?

?

Robert Downs

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Stan Gorodenski
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 18:42
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

?


However, aside from an argument of how to determine surface speed or
equate rpm to surface speed, the main point of my post was to find out
what the max rpm, as it came from the factory, is for my lathe. It had
to have come out with this max rpm, whatever it may have been, for a
reason. So, what was the max rpm as it came out from the factory? Does
anyone know? 2486 seems too high to me.



 

开云体育

Robert and friends,

?

I would just like to point out that this is only valid for the original Atlas “Home Market”? ( smile )

A four pole motor will run at 1750 rpm on a 60Hz ( c/s) supply as found in North America , but for the majority of the rest of the world with 50Hz (c/s) supplies , the motors run at 1500 rpm ( no load ) and around 1425rpm under full load

With my Austrian Maximat lathe the motor / headstock pulley combination comes out in two sizes for either 50Hz or 60Hz supplies . . .?

Enjoy your day ,

?

Carvel

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Robert Downs via Groups.Io
Sent: 17 February 2019 10:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

?

The Atlas 10” and Atlas built 12” came with the same 16 RPM list.? As I said before, what surface speed you need to be running depends upon three things – diameter of the work piece, material and sometimes heat treat condition ?of the work piece, and composition or type of cutter.? Swing of the lathe is never in the equation because you can’t swing a part that is larger than the lathe.

?

The 16 nominal speeds that all 10” and 12” Atlas machines will do are:

?

2072

1270

805

685

500

418

345

266

211

164

134

112

83

70

45

28

?

I think that the chart was originally based on a motor with an average RPM of 1725.? 1740 and 1750 are more commonly quoted today but the difference is only 1.5%.

?

The surface speed chart in the MOLO actually gives the nearest standard available speeds

?

?

?

Robert Downs

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Stan Gorodenski
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 18:42
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

?


However, aside from an argument of how to determine surface speed or
equate rpm to surface speed, the main point of my post was to find out
what the max rpm, as it came from the factory, is for my lathe. It had
to have come out with this max rpm, whatever it may have been, for a
reason. So, what was the max rpm as it came out from the factory? Does
anyone know? 2486 seems too high to me.


 

开云体育

If you look at any motor pulley drawing other the MK-II from any decade, they are all 2-step.? Unlike your setup, the large 2-step pulley on the countershaft is outboard of the bearing.? Someone at the factory in about 1934 decided that the larger step should be next to the bearing. Which puts the smaller step nearer the motor in all but one case (some drawings or photos of the 6” where the motor hangs out to the left, making the lathe take up more space on the bench). ?For whatever reason (including it was easier to draw) all exploded view countershaft drawings for 10” and early 12” are from the right instead of the left.? So the smaller step on the large 2-step just doesn’t show.

?

Robert Downs

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Stan Gorodenski
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 20:04
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

?

Jon,
Thanks. From your response one would conclude that my lathe was a 16
speed. However, how does one reconcile the images in the Atlas parts
list? As I mentioned, the images look like the pulley (what I call the
power pulley) that goes to the motor is just one pulley, not two side by
side. I suppose my friend could have used the 4 pulley assembly but
swapped out the original double power pulley for just one pulley, but,
again, there are the parts drawings in the parts list that show a single
pulley.
Stan

On 2/16/2019 5:56 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

On 02/16/2019 04:55 PM, Stan Gorodenski wrote:

I am not convinced my 10F lathe originally had 16 speeds.
Robert had
estimated its vintage is about 1953 or 1954.

Well, all 10 and 12" Atlas and Craftsman lathes I've
encountered had basically the same setup.
A belt with 2 positions from motor to countershaft, and then
a 4-position belt from countershaft to cone pulley on the
spindle. That gives 8 speeds. Then, you have the back gear,
so now that gives 16 speeds.

Jon


 

Thanks, Carvel. Yes, I knew the countershaft arrangement is homemade. It
is because of this that I am going to have to redo what he did to make
room for the back gears when I get them (which should arrive in a few
days). In the process I am thinking of trying to get back to 16 speeds,
in a homemade manner but it won't be easy to do, at least for me. One
solution is to buy some of the parts on ebay, brackets and all, but at
this point I am not sure I would be getting everything I need. As
someone mentioned, he doesn't envy me trying to restore it. I do not
either and am not sure just how far I want to go.

Thanks for the link. Those are sure beautiful machines. I see now Atlas
had mounted the countershaft arrangement up high and close to the lathe
and the motor down low and close to the lathe, I assume to reduce the
torque from so much weight hanging out the back end.
Stan


On 2/17/2019 12:27 AM, cwlathes wrote:

Stan ,

The countershaft arrangement in your picture is also homemade . . .

Please have a look at the following link . . . . .



This shows very nicely two lathes with two different countershafts
that were available . . .

The first is an earlier ?“10D” with a one piece carriage , and a
vertical countershaft ( which was also available for the 10F)

The second is a “10F” with two piece carriage ( separate apron) , and
a horizontal countershaft . . .

You will also note the that the pulley arrangements were to all
intents and purposes the same as the badge which has been posted on
this thread . .

Hope this helps ,

Carvel

*From:*[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
*On Behalf Of *Stan Gorodenski
*Sent:* 17 February 2019 01:14 AM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

Forgot to attach. Here it is.

On 2/16/2019 3:55 PM, Stan Gorodenski wrote:

I am not convinced my 10F lathe originally had 16 speeds. Robert had
estimated its vintage is about 1953 or 1954. As? I mentioned in a
previous email message my lathe is a real frankenstein. I did not
realize the back gear, the bull gear, the gear attached to the spindle
pulley assembly, and the collar were all gone until many years later.
Other significant changes were made, including discarding the original
brackets for the motor.

However, I feel pretty certain my friend (who died about 3 years ago)
used the original pulleys of what I think is called the counterbalance.
Attached is an image of it. It looks original to me and you can see the
large pulley (that the belt from the motor is attached to) is just one
pulley, not two side by side. The images in the document called "Atlas
Parts list for 10"-F Series Atlas Lathes" also show the large power
pulley being just one pulley, not composed to two side by side. All this
tells me that my lathe originally came out as an 8 speed lathe, not a 16.

I don't know if the original motor was kept while it was being
frankensteinized, but the motor it has turns at 1725 RPM.

I am in the process of trying to get it back to the original 8 speed. I
ordered and am getting the back gears, the bull gear, the small spindle
gear, and the collar behind the small gear. I have the manual my friend
gave me when I bought the lathe. It is pretty beat up and I think it is
supposed to be the manual for my lathe, but it describes the 12" and 6",
not the 10". Therefore, I do not know what the maximum direct drive
spindle rpm for my lathe is supposed to be. From what I read, it is the
surface speed, not RPM of the spindle, that is important in for
machining various metals. The circumference of a 12" swing for the 12"
lathe is 37.7". For my 10" lathe it is 31.42". The 12" swing covers a
distance of 37.7" in one revolution of the spindle, but for my lathe it
only covers 31.42". Therefore, the spindle rpm for my lathe has to be
increased by 37/7/31.42. The max direct rpm for the 12" is 2072 and so
this means the direct drive rpm for my 10" has to be? 2486 for the
surface speeds to be equal between the two swings (the 12" and the 10").

2486 seems to be too fast an rpm for my 10" lathe. Is this correct"?
Stan


 

Thanks, Robert. "How yours lost those parts we will probably never
know." I will never know, but I have a strong suspicion. My friend's
father was also a machinist and I suspected he inherited (not by death)
the lathe from his father. His father was a well known scrounger who
bartered and wheel dealed to get things. He probably got this incomplete
lathe because it was a good bargain to him.
Stan


On 2/17/2019 12:55 AM, Robert Downs via Groups.Io wrote:

Stan,

Although the 4-step cone pulley on your shop-made Countershaft
assembly looks original, and probably is, the slightly larger single
step pulley next to it on the countershaft hanger assembly definitely
is not.? The original motor pulley and the original pulley on the
countershaft that it drives are both originally 2-step.? If you think
that some drawing or photograph shows otherwise, it is only because
the motor pulley isn’t visible and the smaller step on the 2-Step
countershaft pulley isn’t visible because the photo or drawing shows
what you would see if you were standing to the right of the
headstock.? On the 9-427 Pulley, the OD of the larger step is 9.0”.?
The OD of the smaller step is only 7.5”.? With the smaller step
outboard, you do not have to be very far to the right of the pulley
before the smaller step disappears.

Although in the early years, around 1935, Atlas offered what they
called Unit Plan 10” lathes as did Sears with the 12” except that they
called it something else. ?The lathes were offered without back gears,
lead screw, change gears, countershaft, compound, carriage, etc.?
These were called the 10A, 10B and 10C.? When the 10D came out, the
A,B,C were replaced by the 10E.? It was missing the back gears,
countershaft, lead screw and change gears but had the other things.?
When the 10F came out, that ceased.? The 10 F in the early years was
available with Vertical or Horizontal Countershaft and with Babbit or
Timken bearings.? So far as the basic lathe was concerned, those were
your only choices.

How yours lost those parts we will probably never know.? But when it
came off of the Assembly Line, if it was a 10F, it was a 16-speed machine.

Robert Downs

*From:*[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
*On Behalf Of *Stan Gorodenski
*Sent:* Saturday, February 16, 2019 17:14
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

Forgot to attach. Here it is.

On 2/16/2019 3:55 PM, Stan Gorodenski wrote:

I am not convinced my 10F lathe originally had 16 speeds. Robert had
estimated its vintage is about 1953 or 1954. As? I mentioned in a
previous email message my lathe is a real frankenstein. I did not
realize the back gear, the bull gear, the gear attached to the spindle
pulley assembly, and the collar were all gone until many years later.
Other significant changes were made, including discarding the original
brackets for the motor.

However, I feel pretty certain my friend (who died about 3 years ago)
used the original pulleys of what I think is called the counterbalance.
Attached is an image of it. It looks original to me and you can see the
large pulley (that the belt from the motor is attached to) is just one
pulley, not two side by side. The images in the document called "Atlas
Parts list for 10"-F Series Atlas Lathes" also show the large power
pulley being just one pulley, not composed to two side by side. All this
tells me that my lathe originally came out as an 8 speed lathe, not a 16.

I don't know if the original motor was kept while it was being
frankensteinized, but the motor it has turns at 1725 RPM.

I am in the process of trying to get it back to the original 8 speed. I
ordered and am getting the back gears, the bull gear, the small spindle
gear, and the collar behind the small gear. I have the manual my friend
gave me when I bought the lathe. It is pretty beat up and I think it is
supposed to be the manual for my lathe, but it describes the 12" and 6",
not the 10". Therefore, I do not know what the maximum direct drive
spindle rpm for my lathe is supposed to be. From what I read, it is the
surface speed, not RPM of the spindle, that is important in for
machining various metals. The circumference of a 12" swing for the 12"
lathe is 37.7". For my 10" lathe it is 31.42". The 12" swing covers a
distance of 37.7" in one revolution of the spindle, but for my lathe it
only covers 31.42". Therefore, the spindle rpm for my lathe has to be
increased by 37/7/31.42. The max direct rpm for the 12" is 2072 and so
this means the direct drive rpm for my 10" has to be? 2486 for the
surface speeds to be equal between the two swings (the 12" and the 10")

2486 seems to be too fast an rpm for my 10" lathe. Is this correct"?
Stan


 

Robert,
I have the "Atlas Manual of Lathe Operation". This is the beat up manual
I made reference to earlier. The reprint date on it is 1961. It does not
include the 10", just the 12" and 6", as far as I can tell. A couple
years ago I went all through this searching the internet for these
manuals and could not find a pdf for the 10". One of the souces was

Maybe I missed something there. Is there a web site where I can get this
manual?
Stan


On 2/17/2019 1:14 AM, Robert Downs via Groups.Io wrote:

You are correct in saying that the surface speed is important when
machining on a lathe.? But surface speed depends upon spindle RPM and
diameter of the part.? It has nothing to do with what the swing of the
lathe is, other than that you obviously can’t machine a part larger in
diameter than the swing.? You need to get a copy of the Atlas Manual
of Lathe Operations (MOLO) that matches the 10F.? Download and read
the MOLO history and version selection document from Files.? Prior to
1954, you can’t tell the version from information on the Copyright
page because all 15 Editions just say Copyright 1937.

There is a diameter versus RPM versus SFM chart in the MOLO.

Robert Downs

*From:*[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
*On Behalf Of *Stan Gorodenski
*Sent:* Saturday, February 16, 2019 17:14
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced


Therefore, the spindle rpm for my lathe has to be
increased by 37/7/31.42. The max direct rpm for the 12" is 2072 and so
this means the direct drive rpm for my 10" has to be? 2486 for the
surface speeds to be equal between the two swings (the 12" and the 10")

2486 seems to be too fast an rpm for my 10" lathe. Is this correct"?
Stan


 



If you live near San Jose, CA, you could pick it up, otherwise it's going to be $250 including shipping, but it's a complete assembly. Good photos if you want to see what you could make to replace it, too.

HTH!

Bill in OKC

On Sunday, February 17, 2019, 11:05:59 AM CST, Stan Gorodenski <stanlep@...> wrote:


Thanks, Carvel. Yes, I knew the countershaft arrangement is homemade. It
is because of this that I am going to have to redo what he did to make
room for the back gears when I get them (which should arrive in a few
days). In the process I am thinking of trying to get back to 16 speeds,
in a homemade manner but it won't be easy to do, at least for me. One
solution is to buy some of the parts on ebay, brackets and all, but at
this point I am not sure I would be getting everything I need. As
someone mentioned, he doesn't envy me trying to restore it. I do not
either and am not sure just how far I want to go.

Thanks for the link. Those are sure beautiful machines. I see now Atlas
had mounted the countershaft arrangement up high and close to the lathe
and the motor down low and close to the lathe, I assume to reduce the
torque from so much weight hanging out the back end.
Stan


On 2/17/2019 12:27 AM, cwlathes wrote:

Stan ,

The countershaft arrangement in your picture is also homemade . . .

Please have a look at the following link . . . . .



This shows very nicely two lathes with two different countershafts
that were available . . .

The first is an earlier ?“10D” with a one piece carriage , and a
vertical countershaft ( which was also available for the 10F)

The second is a “10F” with two piece carriage ( separate apron) , and
a horizontal countershaft . . .

You will also note the that the pulley arrangements were to all
intents and purposes the same as the badge which has been posted on
this thread . .

Hope this helps ,

Carvel

*From:*[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
*On Behalf Of *Stan Gorodenski
*Sent:* 17 February 2019 01:14 AM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

Forgot to attach. Here it is.

On 2/16/2019 3:55 PM, Stan Gorodenski wrote:

I am not convinced my 10F lathe originally had 16 speeds. Robert had
estimated its vintage is about 1953 or 1954. As? I mentioned in a
previous email message my lathe is a real frankenstein. I did not
realize the back gear, the bull gear, the gear attached to the spindle
pulley assembly, and the collar were all gone until many years later.
Other significant changes were made, including discarding the original
brackets for the motor.

However, I feel pretty certain my friend (who died about 3 years ago)
used the original pulleys of what I think is called the counterbalance.
Attached is an image of it. It looks original to me and you can see the
large pulley (that the belt from the motor is attached to) is just one
pulley, not two side by side. The images in the document called "Atlas
Parts list for 10"-F Series Atlas Lathes" also show the large power
pulley being just one pulley, not composed to two side by side. All this
tells me that my lathe originally came out as an 8 speed lathe, not a 16.

I don't know if the original motor was kept while it was being
frankensteinized, but the motor it has turns at 1725 RPM.

I am in the process of trying to get it back to the original 8 speed. I
ordered and am getting the back gears, the bull gear, the small spindle
gear, and the collar behind the small gear. I have the manual my friend
gave me when I bought the lathe. It is pretty beat up and I think it is
supposed to be the manual for my lathe, but it describes the 12" and 6",
not the 10". Therefore, I do not know what the maximum direct drive
spindle rpm for my lathe is supposed to be. From what I read, it is the
surface speed, not RPM of the spindle, that is important in for
machining various metals. The circumference of a 12" swing for the 12"
lathe is 37.7". For my 10" lathe it is 31.42". The 12" swing covers a
distance of 37.7" in one revolution of the spindle, but for my lathe it
only covers 31.42". Therefore, the spindle rpm for my lathe has to be
increased by 37/7/31.42. The max direct rpm for the 12" is 2072 and so
this means the direct drive rpm for my 10" has to be? 2486 for the
surface speeds to be equal between the two swings (the 12" and the 10").

2486 seems to be too fast an rpm for my 10" lathe. Is this correct"?
Stan


 



These are the folks I bought mine from, though I can't swear this is the same edition I have. They have a couple of listings, and you can ask them if it matches the info in Robert's MOLO history. IIRC, that is what I did, and the one I got was the the correct one for my 10F/TH42.

HTH!

Bill in OKC

On Sunday, February 17, 2019, 11:23:20 AM CST, Stan Gorodenski <stanlep@...> wrote:


Robert,
I have the "Atlas Manual of Lathe Operation". This is the beat up manual
I made reference to earlier. The reprint date on it is 1961. It does not
include the 10", just the 12" and 6", as far as I can tell. A couple
years ago I went all through this searching the internet for these
manuals and could not find a pdf for the 10". One of the souces was

Maybe I missed something there. Is there a web site where I can get this
manual?
Stan


On 2/17/2019 1:14 AM, Robert Downs via Groups.Io wrote:

You are correct in saying that the surface speed is important when
machining on a lathe.? But surface speed depends upon spindle RPM and
diameter of the part.? It has nothing to do with what the swing of the
lathe is, other than that you obviously can’t machine a part larger in
diameter than the swing.? You need to get a copy of the Atlas Manual
of Lathe Operations (MOLO) that matches the 10F.? Download and read
the MOLO history and version selection document from Files.? Prior to
1954, you can’t tell the version from information on the Copyright
page because all 15 Editions just say Copyright 1937.

There is a diameter versus RPM versus SFM chart in the MOLO.

Robert Downs

*From:*[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
*On Behalf Of *Stan Gorodenski
*Sent:* Saturday, February 16, 2019 17:14
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced


Therefore, the spindle rpm for my lathe has to be
increased by 37/7/31.42. The max direct rpm for the 12" is 2072 and so
this means the direct drive rpm for my 10" has to be? 2486 for the
surface speeds to be equal between the two swings (the 12" and the 10")

2486 seems to be too fast an rpm for my 10" lathe. Is this correct"?
Stan


 

开云体育

I have it entered as June, 1941.

?

Robert Downs

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of David Beierl
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 21:25
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

?

I'm not familiar with all?
this terminology - what is the 618??

?

Sorry -- 618 was their six by eighteen inch lathe.? Minimum speed in back gear 54 rpm.? I have my grandfather's, delivered in '40 (or maybe '41?? Robert knows because I used to have the delivery papers and told him about them).?

?

Yrs,

d


 

开云体育

The manuals generally use the same speed chart for both 10” and 12”.? Although the support components (such as counter shaft bracket) are different, in any given year, the four pulleys have the same Atlas part number.

?

Robert Downs

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Stan Gorodenski
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 21:53
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

?

The badge didn't come with the lathe I have. Maybe it got trashed
somehow over the years. The beat up manual I have that is supposed to be
for the lathe, at least I thought so, has this image, but it is for a 12".
Stan

On 2/16/2019 7:47 PM, Larry Hoelscher wrote:

Here is the badge that came with the lathe.? It should also appear in
your lathe manual.

On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 8:14 PM Stan Gorodenski <stanlep@...
<mailto:stanlep@...>> wrote:

On 2/16/2019 6:20 PM, David Beierl wrote:


Top speed of the 618 is about 3600 rpm.? Again, it's for
small-diameter work that you want the higher speeds.

Hmmm. I guess you are right. I was approaching it from the the other
direction. I this case there would be no reason for the max
spindle rpm
of the 10" to be higher than that of the 12". I'm not familiar
with all
this terminology - what is the 618?
Stan



Yrs,
d


 

开云体育

Bill,

?

The Atlas MOLO with Copyright 1937 printed on the Copyright Page was reprinted 14 time (according to Atlas) between 1938 and 1953.? There were at least seven and maybe eight versions over that period. ?Two versions were apparently printed most years (10” and 12”).? At least one year, they also printed one in which Part 7 – Thread Cutting covers the 618.? I’m still looking for one that covers the 101.07301.? Over the years, some new ?photos came and went.? There were some additions, deletions or changes in the text.? And the pagination changed a couple of times.?

?

I have around 20 copies of the MOLO from a blue cover Second Edition through to both versions of the 1988 edition.? In 1968, they deleted two pages (one sheet) early in the book.? And the page number following the “Machining of Materials” tab changed from 47 to 45.? But aside from that, every copy that I have has the equipment speed chart on the first page after the tab, which is either 47 or 45.? If yours doesn’t, are you sure that there isn’t a sheet missing?

?

?

Robert Downs

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bill in OKC too via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 00:10
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

?

Larry, that is essentially the chart that I described on page 47 in the manual for my 10F/TH42. There is no chart like that in the Sears Master Craftsman manual I have. Page 47 in that book is blank except for "Part 4 The Machining of Various Materials

?

HTH!

?

Bill in OKC

?

_._,_._,_


 

开云体育

That’s true.? I have often wondered why Atlas did not supply the machines sent to Britain with 50 CPS motor pulleys.

?

Robert Downs

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of cwlathes
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 03:06
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

?

Robert and friends,

?

I would just like to point out that this is only valid for the original Atlas “Home Market”? ( smile )

A four pole motor will run at 1750 rpm on a 60Hz ( c/s) supply as found in North America , but for the majority of the rest of the world with 50Hz (c/s) supplies , the motors run at 1500 rpm ( no load ) and around 1425rpm under full load

With my Austrian Maximat lathe the motor / headstock pulley combination comes out in two sizes for either 50Hz or 60Hz supplies . . .?

Enjoy your day ,

?

Carvel

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Robert Downs via Groups.Io
Sent: 17 February 2019 10:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

?

The Atlas 10” and Atlas built 12” came with the same 16 RPM list.? As I said before, what surface speed you need to be running depends upon three things – diameter of the work piece, material and sometimes heat treat condition ?of the work piece, and composition or type of cutter.? Swing of the lathe is never in the equation because you can’t swing a part that is larger than the lathe.

?

The 16 nominal speeds that all 10” and 12” Atlas machines will do are:

?

2072

1270

805

685

500

418

345

266

211

164

134

112

83

70

45

28

?

I think that the chart was originally based on a motor with an average RPM of 1725.? 1740 and 1750 are more commonly quoted today but the difference is only 1.5%.

?

The surface speed chart in the MOLO actually gives the nearest standard available speeds

?

?

?

Robert Downs

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Stan Gorodenski
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2019 18:42
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

?


However, aside from an argument of how to determine surface speed or
equate rpm to surface speed, the main point of my post was to find out
what the max rpm, as it came from the factory, is for my lathe. It had
to have come out with this max rpm, whatever it may have been, for a
reason. So, what was the max rpm as it came out from the factory? Does
anyone know? 2486 seems too high to me.


 

开云体育

Becareful , even with the motor mounted low the lathe is very top heavy and easy to turn over if not bolted down.



Sent from my Boost Mobile Phone.

-------- Original message --------
From: Stan Gorodenski <stanlep@...>
Date: 2/17/19 12:05 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

Thanks, Carvel. Yes, I knew the countershaft arrangement is homemade. It
is because of this that I am going to have to redo what he did to make
room for the back gears when I get them (which should arrive in a few
days). In the process I am thinking of trying to get back to 16 speeds,
in a homemade manner but it won't be easy to do, at least for me. One
solution is to buy some of the parts on ebay, brackets and all, but at
this point I am not sure I would be getting everything I need. As
someone mentioned, he doesn't envy me trying to restore it. I do not
either and am not sure just how far I want to go.

Thanks for the link. Those are sure beautiful machines. I see now Atlas
had mounted the countershaft arrangement up high and close to the lathe
and the motor down low and close to the lathe, I assume to reduce the
torque from so much weight hanging out the back end.
Stan

On 2/17/2019 12:27 AM, cwlathes wrote:

Stan ,

The countershaft arrangement in your picture is also homemade . . .

Please have a look at the following link . . . . .



This shows very nicely two lathes with two different countershafts
that were available . . .

The first is an earlier ?“10D” with a one piece carriage , and a
vertical countershaft ( which was also available for the 10F)

The second is a “10F” with two piece carriage ( separate apron) , and
a horizontal countershaft . . .

You will also note the that the pulley arrangements were to all
intents and purposes the same as the badge which has been posted on
this thread . .

Hope this helps ,

Carvel

*From:*[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
*On Behalf Of *Stan Gorodenski
*Sent:* 17 February 2019 01:14 AM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

Forgot to attach. Here it is.

On 2/16/2019 3:55 PM, Stan Gorodenski wrote:

I am not convinced my 10F lathe originally had 16 speeds. Robert had
estimated its vintage is about 1953 or 1954. As? I mentioned in a
previous email message my lathe is a real frankenstein. I did not
realize the back gear, the bull gear, the gear attached to the spindle
pulley assembly, and the collar were all gone until many years later.
Other significant changes were made, including discarding the original
brackets for the motor.

However, I feel pretty certain my friend (who died about 3 years ago)
used the original pulleys of what I think is called the counterbalance.
Attached is an image of it. It looks original to me and you can see the
large pulley (that the belt from the motor is attached to) is just one
pulley, not two side by side. The images in the document called "Atlas
Parts list for 10"-F Series Atlas Lathes" also show the large power
pulley being just one pulley, not composed to two side by side. All this
tells me that my lathe originally came out as an 8 speed lathe, not a 16.

I don't know if the original motor was kept while it was being
frankensteinized, but the motor it has turns at 1725 RPM.

I am in the process of trying to get it back to the original 8 speed. I
ordered and am getting the back gears, the bull gear, the small spindle
gear, and the collar behind the small gear. I have the manual my friend
gave me when I bought the lathe. It is pretty beat up and I think it is
supposed to be the manual for my lathe, but it describes the 12" and 6",
not the 10". Therefore, I do not know what the maximum direct drive
spindle rpm for my lathe is supposed to be. From what I read, it is the
surface speed, not RPM of the spindle, that is important in for
machining various metals. The circumference of a 12" swing for the 12"
lathe is 37.7". For my 10" lathe it is 31.42". The 12" swing covers a
distance of 37.7" in one revolution of the spindle, but for my lathe it
only covers 31.42". Therefore, the spindle rpm for my lathe has to be
increased by 37/7/31.42. The max direct rpm for the 12" is 2072 and so
this means the direct drive rpm for my 10" has to be? 2486 for the
surface speeds to be equal between the two swings (the 12" and the 10").

2486 seems to be too fast an rpm for my 10" lathe. Is this correct"?
Stan


 

开云体育

Clausing sentme a photocopyof my QC42?
Parts list and exploded diagram years ago. You might inquire of them.


Sent from my Boost Mobile Phone.

-------- Original message --------
From: Stan Gorodenski <stanlep@...>
Date: 2/17/19 12:22 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

Robert,
I have the "Atlas Manual of Lathe Operation". This is the beat up manual
I made reference to earlier. The reprint date on it is 1961. It does not
include the 10", just the 12" and 6", as far as I can tell. A couple
years ago I went all through this searching the internet for these
manuals and could not find a pdf for the 10". One of the souces was

Maybe I missed something there. Is there a web site where I can get this
manual?
Stan

On 2/17/2019 1:14 AM, Robert Downs via Groups.Io wrote:

You are correct in saying that the surface speed is important when
machining on a lathe.? But surface speed depends upon spindle RPM and
diameter of the part.? It has nothing to do with what the swing of the
lathe is, other than that you obviously can’t machine a part larger in
diameter than the swing.? You need to get a copy of the Atlas Manual
of Lathe Operations (MOLO) that matches the 10F.? Download and read
the MOLO history and version selection document from Files.? Prior to
1954, you can’t tell the version from information on the Copyright
page because all 15 Editions just say Copyright 1937.

There is a diameter versus RPM versus SFM chart in the MOLO.

Robert Downs

*From:*[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
*On Behalf Of *Stan Gorodenski
*Sent:* Saturday, February 16, 2019 17:14
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced


Therefore, the spindle rpm for my lathe has to be
increased by 37/7/31.42. The max direct rpm for the 12" is 2072 and so
this means the direct drive rpm for my 10" has to be? 2486 for the
surface speeds to be equal between the two swings (the 12" and the 10")

2486 seems to be too fast an rpm for my 10" lathe. Is this correct"?
Stan


 

Thanks for the heads up. Tipping over won't be a problem because the
lathe is bolted to the bottom of the 1/4" thick steel rectangular box
which weighs more than the lathe, has a wider footprint than the lathe,
and so there is no danger of tipping. I don't have the box in front of
me, but I looks like he made it from an I-beam about 10"-12" wide with
walls that are about 4" high (2" above the center between the two sides
and 2" below). The bottom side of the I-beam is ribbed he welded in
using 1/4" thick flat iron to give it rigidity, and of course the top
side is where the lathe is bolted.
Stan


On 2/17/2019 2:34 PM, perry7122 wrote:
Becareful , even with the motor mounted low the lathe is very top
heavy and easy to turn over if not bolted down.



Sent from my Boost Mobile Phone.

-------- Original message --------
From: Stan Gorodenski <stanlep@...>
Date: 2/17/19 12:05 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

Thanks, Carvel. Yes, I knew the countershaft arrangement is homemade. It
is because of this that I am going to have to redo what he did to make
room for the back gears when I get them (which should arrive in a few
days). In the process I am thinking of trying to get back to 16 speeds,
in a homemade manner but it won't be easy to do, at least for me. One
solution is to buy some of the parts on ebay, brackets and all, but at
this point I am not sure I would be getting everything I need. As
someone mentioned, he doesn't envy me trying to restore it. I do not
either and am not sure just how far I want to go.

Thanks for the link. Those are sure beautiful machines. I see now Atlas
had mounted the countershaft arrangement up high and close to the lathe
and the motor down low and close to the lathe, I assume to reduce the
torque from so much weight hanging out the back end.
Stan

On 2/17/2019 12:27 AM, cwlathes wrote:


Stan ,

The countershaft arrangement in your picture is also homemade . . .

Please have a look at the following link . . . . .



This shows very nicely two lathes with two different countershafts
that were available . . .

The first is an earlier ?“10D” with a one piece carriage , and a
vertical countershaft ( which was also available for the 10F)

The second is a “10F” with two piece carriage ( separate apron) , and
a horizontal countershaft . . .

You will also note the that the pulley arrangements were to all
intents and purposes the same as the badge which has been posted on
this thread . .

Hope this helps ,

Carvel

*From:*[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
*On Behalf Of *Stan Gorodenski
*Sent:* 17 February 2019 01:14 AM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

Forgot to attach. Here it is.

On 2/16/2019 3:55 PM, Stan Gorodenski wrote:

I am not convinced my 10F lathe originally had 16 speeds. Robert had
estimated its vintage is about 1953 or 1954. As? I mentioned in a
previous email message my lathe is a real frankenstein. I did not
realize the back gear, the bull gear, the gear attached to the spindle
pulley assembly, and the collar were all gone until many years later.
Other significant changes were made, including discarding the original
brackets for the motor.

However, I feel pretty certain my friend (who died about 3 years ago)
used the original pulleys of what I think is called the
counterbalance.
Attached is an image of it. It looks original to me and you can
see the
large pulley (that the belt from the motor is attached to) is just one
pulley, not two side by side. The images in the document called "Atlas
Parts list for 10"-F Series Atlas Lathes" also show the large power
pulley being just one pulley, not composed to two side by side.
All this
tells me that my lathe originally came out as an 8 speed lathe,
not a 16.

I don't know if the original motor was kept while it was being
frankensteinized, but the motor it has turns at 1725 RPM.

I am in the process of trying to get it back to the original 8
speed. I
ordered and am getting the back gears, the bull gear, the small
spindle
gear, and the collar behind the small gear. I have the manual my
friend
gave me when I bought the lathe. It is pretty beat up and I think
it is
supposed to be the manual for my lathe, but it describes the 12"
and 6",
not the 10". Therefore, I do not know what the maximum direct drive
spindle rpm for my lathe is supposed to be. From what I read, it
is the
surface speed, not RPM of the spindle, that is important in for
machining various metals. The circumference of a 12" swing for the 12"
lathe is 37.7". For my 10" lathe it is 31.42". The 12" swing covers a
distance of 37.7" in one revolution of the spindle, but for my
lathe it
only covers 31.42". Therefore, the spindle rpm for my lathe has to be
increased by 37/7/31.42. The max direct rpm for the 12" is 2072 and so
this means the direct drive rpm for my 10" has to be? 2486 for the
surface speeds to be equal between the two swings (the 12" and the
10").

2486 seems to be too fast an rpm for my 10" lathe. Is this correct"?
Stan


 

Bill:
The speed chart is located on page 233.? Granted mine is a reprint with a glossy cover and NO print date behind the title page.


On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 3:43 PM Stan Gorodenski <stanlep@...> wrote:
Thanks for the heads up. Tipping over won't be a problem because the
lathe is bolted to the bottom of the 1/4" thick steel rectangular box
which weighs more than the lathe, has a wider footprint than the lathe,
and so there is no danger of tipping. I don't have the box in front of
me, but I looks like he made it from an I-beam about 10"-12" wide with
walls that are about 4" high (2" above the center between the two sides
and 2" below). The bottom side of the I-beam is ribbed he welded in
using 1/4" thick flat iron to give it rigidity, and of course the top
side is where the lathe is bolted.
Stan

On 2/17/2019 2:34 PM, perry7122 wrote:
Becareful , even with the motor mounted low the lathe is very top
heavy and easy to turn over if not bolted down.



Sent from my Boost Mobile Phone.

-------- Original message --------
From: Stan Gorodenski <stanlep@...>
Date: 2/17/19 12:05 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

Thanks, Carvel. Yes, I knew the countershaft arrangement is homemade. It
is because of this that I am going to have to redo what he did to make
room for the back gears when I get them (which should arrive in a few
days). In the process I am thinking of trying to get back to 16 speeds,
in a homemade manner but it won't be easy to do, at least for me. One
solution is to buy some of the parts on ebay, brackets and all, but at
this point I am not sure I would be getting everything I need. As
someone mentioned, he doesn't envy me trying to restore it. I do not
either and am not sure just how far I want to go.

Thanks for the link. Those are sure beautiful machines. I see now Atlas
had mounted the countershaft arrangement up high and close to the lathe
and the motor down low and close to the lathe, I assume to reduce the
torque from so much weight hanging out the back end.
Stan

On 2/17/2019 12:27 AM, cwlathes wrote:


Stan ,

The countershaft arrangement in your picture is also homemade . . .

Please have a look at the following link . . . . .



This shows very nicely two lathes with two different countershafts
that were available . . .

The first is an earlier ?“10D” with a one piece carriage , and a
vertical countershaft ( which was also available for the 10F)

The second is a “10F” with two piece carriage ( separate apron) , and
a horizontal countershaft . . .

You will also note the that the pulley arrangements were to all
intents and purposes the same as the badge which has been posted on
this thread . .

Hope this helps ,

Carvel

*From:*[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
*On Behalf Of *Stan Gorodenski
*Sent:* 17 February 2019 01:14 AM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

Forgot to attach. Here it is.

On 2/16/2019 3:55 PM, Stan Gorodenski wrote:

I am not convinced my 10F lathe originally had 16 speeds. Robert had
estimated its vintage is about 1953 or 1954. As? I mentioned in a
previous email message my lathe is a real frankenstein. I did not
realize the back gear, the bull gear, the gear attached to the spindle
pulley assembly, and the collar were all gone until many years later.
Other significant changes were made, including discarding the original
brackets for the motor.

However, I feel pretty certain my friend (who died about 3 years ago)
used the original pulleys of what I think is called the
counterbalance.
Attached is an image of it. It looks original to me and you can
see the
large pulley (that the belt from the motor is attached to) is just one
pulley, not two side by side. The images in the document called "Atlas
Parts list for 10"-F Series Atlas Lathes" also show the large power
pulley being just one pulley, not composed to two side by side.
All this
tells me that my lathe originally came out as an 8 speed lathe,
not a 16.

I don't know if the original motor was kept while it was being
frankensteinized, but the motor it has turns at 1725 RPM.

I am in the process of trying to get it back to the original 8
speed. I
ordered and am getting the back gears, the bull gear, the small
spindle
gear, and the collar behind the small gear. I have the manual my
friend
gave me when I bought the lathe. It is pretty beat up and I think
it is
supposed to be the manual for my lathe, but it describes the 12"
and 6",
not the 10". Therefore, I do not know what the maximum direct drive
spindle rpm for my lathe is supposed to be. From what I read, it
is the
surface speed, not RPM of the spindle, that is important in for
machining various metals. The circumference of a 12" swing for the 12"
lathe is 37.7". For my 10" lathe it is 31.42". The 12" swing covers a
distance of 37.7" in one revolution of the spindle, but for my
lathe it
only covers 31.42". Therefore, the spindle rpm for my lathe has to be
increased by 37/7/31.42. The max direct rpm for the 12" is 2072 and so
this means the direct drive rpm for my 10" has to be? 2486 for the
surface speeds to be equal between the two swings (the 12" and the
10").

2486 seems to be too fast an rpm for my 10" lathe. Is this correct"?
Stan


 

开云体育

The chart on page 233 only applies to the 9” and the 10A, B, C Unit Plan Lathes.? It disappeared in 1957.? The speed chart for the 10, 10D, 10F. and all of the 12” is on page 47 except for MOLOS printed in 1968 and later where it is on page 45.? The text actually says 10” up through 1955 but also applies to the Craftsman machines.? From 1957 on, it says 12”.

?

Robert Downs

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Larry Hoelscher
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 17:53
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

?

Bill:

The speed chart is located on page 233.? Granted mine is a reprint with a glossy cover and NO print date behind the title page.

?

_._,_._,_


 

It is a pdf copy downloaded from scribd.com, so there is no telling if it's complete. That particular page is not actually numbered. The following page is 48, and 49 is the chart with all the speeds shown that matches the page 49 in my 10F MOLO.

Copyright date is 1937, so not much help there.

Bill in OKC
--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 2/17/19, Robert Downs via Groups.Io <wa5cab@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced
To: [email protected]
Date: Sunday, February 17, 2019, 3:01 PM

Bill,
?The Atlas MOLO with Copyright 1937 printed on the
Copyright Page was reprinted 14 time (according to Atlas)
between 1938 and 1953.? There were at least seven and maybe
eight versions over that period. ?Two versions were
apparently printed most years (10” and 12”).? At least
one year, they also printed one in which Part 7 – Thread
Cutting covers the 618.? I’m still looking for one that
covers the 101.07301.? Over the years, some new ?photos
came and went.? There were some additions, deletions or
changes in the text.? And the pagination changed a couple
of times.?
?I have around 20 copies of the MOLO from a blue
cover Second Edition through to both versions of the 1988
edition.? In 1968, they deleted two pages (one sheet) early
in the book.? And the page number following the
“Machining of Materials” tab changed from 47 to 45.?
But aside from that, every copy that I have has the
equipment speed chart on the first page after the tab, which
is either 47 or 45.? If yours doesn’t, are you sure that
there isn’t a sheet missing?
? ?Robert
Downs ?From:
[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Bill in OKC too via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 00:10
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not
Convinced
?Larry,
that is essentially the chart that I described on page 47 in
the manual for my 10F/TH42. There is no chart like that in
the Sears Master Craftsman manual I have. Page 47 in that
book is blank except for "Part 4 The Machining of
Various Materials ?HTH! ?Bill in OKC


 

开云体育

The Tab sheets are not numbered.? Most of the scans floating around do not include them.? Final page number most of them is 238, the last Index page.

?

If the speed chart is on page 49, it is a scan that I don’t have.? Can you attach it and send it to me?

?

Robert Downs

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bill in OKC too via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 20:15
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced

?

It is a pdf copy downloaded from scribd.com, so there is no telling if it's complete. That particular page is not actually numbered. The following page is 48, and 49 is the chart with all the speeds shown that matches the page 49 in my 10F MOLO.

Copyright date is 1937, so not much help there.

Bill in OKC
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 2/17/19, Robert Downs via Groups.Io <wa5cab@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not Convinced
To: [email protected]
Date: Sunday, February 17, 2019, 3:01 PM

Bill,
?The Atlas MOLO with Copyright 1937 printed on the
Copyright Page was reprinted 14 time (according to Atlas)
between 1938 and 1953.? There were at least seven and maybe
eight versions over that period. ?Two versions were
apparently printed most years (10” and 12”).? At least
one year, they also printed one in which Part 7 – Thread
Cutting covers the 618.? I’m still looking for one that
covers the 101.07301.? Over the years, some new ?photos
came and went.? There were some additions, deletions or
changes in the text.? And the pagination changed a couple
of times.?
?I have around 20 copies of the MOLO from a blue
cover Second Edition through to both versions of the 1988
edition.? In 1968, they deleted two pages (one sheet) early
in the book.? And the page number following the
“Machining of Materials” tab changed from 47 to 45.?
But aside from that, every copy that I have has the
equipment speed chart on the first page after the tab, which
is either 47 or 45.? If yours doesn’t, are you sure that
there isn’t a sheet missing?
? ?Robert
Downs ?From:
[email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Bill in OKC too via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2019 00:10
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [atlas-craftsman IO] Not
Convinced
?Larry,
that is essentially the chart that I described on page 47 in
the manual for my 10F/TH42. There is no chart like that in
the Sears Master Craftsman manual I have. Page 47 in that
book is blank except for "Part 4 The Machining of
Various Materials ?HTH! ?Bill in OKC