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Maybe Lee could do a J11 Membership Card next.
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timgreenowb via Groups.Io wrote: Maybe Lee could do a J11 Membership Card next. I'm too "vintage", I guess. What's a J11? What do these two giant chips do? Josh and I have currently been working in the opposite direction. We've put an Altair 8800 in an Altoids tin. We call it the "Altaid 8800". :-) <> Lee80 Hart -- There is a computer disease that anybody who works with computers knows about. It's very serious, and interferes completely with your work. The trouble with computers is that you 'play' with them! (Richard Feynman) -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Just joking.? I forgot to put a smiley ? on my post.? It's the chip from a DEC PDP-11 and obviously wouldn't fit in a tin.? I got the idea from here:
Tim
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timgreenowb via Groups.Io wrote: Just joking. I forgot to put a smiley ? on my post. It's the chip
from a DEC PDP-11 and obviously wouldn't fit in a tin. Well, there are PDP-8 and PDP-11 clone kits (google PiDP-8 or PiDP-11). They use a Raspberry Pi as their "brain", which would fit in an Altoids tin. Almost *everything* has been put in an Altoid tin. I had a mad idea to put one of those tiny 12vdc-to-120vac inverters that plug into an auto accessory (cigarette lighter) socket in an Altoids tin, along with 12v worth of rechargeable batteries and a small PV panel. When the sun shines on it, you have a "nuclear power plant" in an Altoids tin. :-) Lee Hart -- There is a computer disease that anybody who works with computers knows about. It's very serious, and interferes completely with your work. The trouble with computers is that you 'play' with them! (Richard Feynman) -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Hi Lee,
Love it.
Do you have prices and availability of a kit yet?
Best Regards
Paul?
Sent from Samsung tablet.
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Paul Bigwood wrote: Hi Lee, Love it [Altaid 8800]. Do you have prices and availability of a kit yet? TBD (To Be Detirmined). But hopefully by the end of the year. :-) Price will be similar to my other little computers (1802 and Z80). Lee80 Hart -- There is a computer disease that anybody who works with computers knows about. It's very serious, and interferes completely with your work. The trouble with computers is that you 'play' with them! (Richard Feynman) -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Easier would be the smaller T-11 as its a more conventional 40pin.
Allison
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Lee, ? I was very interested in the G Barrow 8080 S100 board octal display and keypad. A Google search turned up the user manual with cct and rom code.
I first learnt octal coding when i worked at DEC as a field service engineer in the uk in the '80s, and had forgotten how opcodes could be decoded and encoded easier using octal compared to hex.?
Octal was very popular when the 8080 first came out.?
I wondered if it is possible to space the address bus and data bus LEDs in octal spacing rather than binary/hex making it easier to enter and read the LEDS in octal. e.g. Data LEDs and switches are spaced? Like this? XX XXX XXX? rather than XXXXXXXX. Same applies for Address bus. Vis Address bus XX XXX XXX XX XXX XXX rather than the XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.
Is it planned to add a SD card for cp/m??
Best regards
Paul G3WYW?
As i understand the existing code,? the bus input switches toggle the associated?
R ?
Sent from Samsung tablet.
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Hi Paul, There is barely enough space for the LED's they're packed in there like commuters on the 5 O'clock train! But, you can very easily alternate colours of LED's.? I'm using Red and Yellow, in sets of 4 for HEX. Nothing stopping you from doing sets of 2,3,3.? Might need to count out the right number of LED's for both layouts.
On Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 3:44:18 PM EST, Paul Bigwood <paul@...> wrote:
Lee, ? I was very interested in the G Barrow 8080 S100 board octal display and keypad. A Google search turned up the user manual with cct and rom code.
I first learnt octal coding when i worked at DEC as a field service engineer in the uk in the '80s, and had forgotten how opcodes could be decoded and encoded easier using octal compared to hex.?
Octal was very popular when the 8080 first came out.?
I wondered if it is possible to space the address bus and data bus LEDs in octal spacing rather than binary/hex making it easier to enter and read the LEDS in octal. e.g. Data LEDs and switches are spaced? Like this? XX XXX XXX? rather than XXXXXXXX. Same applies for Address bus. Vis Address bus XX XXX XXX XX XXX XXX rather than the XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.
Is it planned to add a SD card for cp/m??
Best regards
Paul G3WYW?
As i understand the existing code,? the bus input switches toggle the associated?
R ?
Sent from Samsung tablet.
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Paul Bigwood wrote: Lee,
I was very interested in the G Barrow 8080 S100 board octal display
and keypad. A Google search turned up the user manual with cct and
rom code. Do you mean George Morrow's "Keyed-Up" combination front panel and 8080 CPU board? This one? <> joshbensadon via Groups.Io wrote: There is barely enough space for the LED's they're packed in there like
commuters on the 5 O'clock train!
But, you can very easily alternate colours of LED's. I'm using Red and
Yellow, in sets of 4 for HEX.
Nothing stopping you from doing sets of 2,3,3. Might need to count out
the right number of LED's for both layouts. That's a good idea. :-) The LEDs are evenly spaced, so color could be used to separate them into hex or octal formats. It should be easy to supply enough LEDs so the builder can choose which he wants. The serial monitor is a little harder. Right now, it's written for hex. But the source is available, so you could change it for octal. Is it planned to add a SD card for cp/m? The Z80MC already has it. If you mean the 8080 "Altaid 8800", it doesn't have an SD-card... or for that matter, *any* modern parts. I was aiming for a pure retro-design. It does have jumper options for bigger modern "bytewide" RAMs and ROMs. In 1976 (the ficticious introduction date), the only options would have been a 2716 2K EPROM and 2K RAM (and they were both very new and expensive). But as Intel's Gordon Noyce observed, memory chip size doubled every 2 years! -- ICEs have the same problem as lightbulbs. Why innovate and make better ones when the current ones burn out often enough to keep you in business? -- Hunter Cressall -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Hi Lee and Josh,
Different colored LEDS would do the same. Grest idea.
It would be good if the ROM monitor could .support both Hex and Octal, but understand the issues.
Yes, that was the site for George Morrows 8080 S100 board with display and keypad.
I was thinking of a SD card for program storage under cp/m, but now realise your design objective for this computer to be truly retro, so 'cassette' storage is required.?
Looking forward to the kit being available soon.
Best Regards
Paul.
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Paul Bigwood wrote: It would be good if the ROM monitor could .support both Hex and Octal,
but understand the issues. It's one of those "someday..." things. My Heathkit H8 and H89 computers both support both octal and hex displays. The H8 uses two different ROMs (2K each). The H89 has a bigger ROM (4K) that has a "radix" command to select octal or hex. I was thinking of a SD card for program storage under cp/m, but now
realise your design objective for this computer to be truly retro, so
'cassette' storage is required. It's not required, but it's there for that "vintage feel". However, the Altaid's RAM has battery back-up. You initially load it via the serial port (from a PC etc.) Once it's loaded, the battery maintains data even with the power off. Looking forward to the kit being available soon. So are we! :-) Lee -- ICEs have the same problem as lightbulbs. Why innovate and make better ones when the current ones burn out often enough to keep you in business? -- Hunter Cressall -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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I should note... the original idea of using colours for HEX / Octal wasn't mine, I got it from the IMSAI 8080, the switches could be re-arranged for HEX or Octal.? I'm not sure if that was an original idea in 1976 either, it really never ceases to amaze me of how many ideas for modern computers came from the 50's and 60's.??
Paul,
I should have mentioned that the Altaid is capable of running CP/M.? It does not have the flexibility that is available with the Z80MC, but the firmware expects 512K of RAM.? NO SD card, just a big RAM disk.? The first 64K of RAM is for system and the remaining 448K is used as a RAM Disk.? You may Xmodem load/save this RAM Disk image.? It comes with 2 programs preloaded, PIP and XM (Xmodem to transfer individual files to/from the disk). XM is a simplified small version of Martin Eberhard's XModem.?
Josh
On Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 2:44:18 p.m. CST, Paul Bigwood <paul@...> wrote:
Lee, ? I was very interested in the G Barrow 8080 S100 board octal display and keypad. A Google search turned up the user manual with cct and rom code.
I first learnt octal coding when i worked at DEC as a field service engineer in the uk in the '80s, and had forgotten how opcodes could be decoded and encoded easier using octal compared to hex.?
Octal was very popular when the 8080 first came out.?
I wondered if it is possible to space the address bus and data bus LEDs in octal spacing rather than binary/hex making it easier to enter and read the LEDS in octal. e.g. Data LEDs and switches are spaced? Like this? XX XXX XXX? rather than XXXXXXXX. Same applies for Address bus. Vis Address bus XX XXX XXX XX XXX XXX rather than the XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.
Is it planned to add a SD card for cp/m??
Best regards
Paul G3WYW?
As i understand the existing code,? the bus input switches toggle the associated?
R ?
Sent from Samsung tablet.
|
Just compare the Altair to the IMSAI front panels. They are separated by 2-3 years and the grouping changed from an octal grouping to a hex grouping.
I’ve seen a few Altairs in which the user put colored toggle caps (remember those from Radio Shack?) on the switches to improve the toggling speed through visual cues. That’s why I think the IMSAI front panel is a stroke of genius
— the visual cues and grouping made toggling easier (IMHO).
Get
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I should note... the original idea of using colours for HEX / Octal wasn't mine, I got it from the IMSAI 8080, the switches could be re-arranged for HEX or Octal.? I'm not sure if that was an original idea in 1976 either, it really never ceases
to amaze me of how many ideas for modern computers came from the 50's and 60's.??
Paul,
I should have mentioned that the Altaid is capable of running CP/M.? It does not have the flexibility that is available with the Z80MC, but the firmware expects 512K of RAM.?
NO SD card, just a big RAM disk.? The first 64K of RAM is for system and the remaining 448K is used as a RAM Disk.? You may Xmodem load/save this RAM Disk
image.? It comes with 2 programs preloaded, PIP and XM (Xmodem to transfer individual files to/from the disk).
XM is a simplified small version of Martin Eberhard's XModem.?
Josh
On Wednesday, November 20, 2019, 2:44:18 p.m. CST, Paul Bigwood <paul@...> wrote:
Lee,
?
I was very interested in the G Barrow 8080 S100 board octal display and keypad. A Google search turned up the user manual with cct and rom code.
I first learnt octal coding when i worked at DEC as a field service engineer in the uk in the '80s, and had forgotten how opcodes could be decoded and encoded easier using octal compared to hex.?
Octal was very popular when the 8080 first came out.?
I wondered if it is possible to space the address bus and data bus LEDs in octal spacing rather than binary/hex making it easier to enter and read the LEDS in octal. e.g. Data LEDs and switches are spaced?
Like this? XX XXX XXX? rather than XXXXXXXX. Same applies for Address bus. Vis
Address bus XX XXX XXX XX XXX XXX rather than the XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX.
Is it planned to add a SD card for cp/m??
Best regards
Paul G3WYW?
As i understand the existing code,? the bus input switches toggle the associated?
R
?
Sent from Samsung tablet.
|
Hi Rich,
Yeah, I think it was even less than 2 years.? I believe I saw ads for IMSAI as early as Feb 1976 (13 months after ALTAIR's announcement Jan 1975).
On the topic of Octal vs HEX.? I might make some enemies here, but I believe HEX is better. The original owner of my Altair put (zippo) tape over every other 4 switches (HEX visual cues).
While the 8080 instruction set is geared towards Octal, I will dare to say it's easier to enter a program in HEX. Because in HEX, you only need to remember 2 characters.? I am guessing someone with a good memory (not me) could probably read and retain 8 bytes of data then enter them into the computer, while the same person might only be able to do 4 bytes of Octal. The only con about HEX are the letter codes... but with a little practice, those become 2nd nature.
Besides, I've never been a fan of 377 377, I mean, how can 377 377 be the same as 177777 ? I think most will agree HEX just fits in nicer.? Now if only we can change the alphabet..? 26 is such an odd number!
Here's a weird thought... what would computer programming look like if we still used Roman Numerals?
X? Print "Hello" XX Goto X
LoL
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joshbensadon via Groups.Io wrote: Here's a weird thought... what would computer programming look like if
we still used Roman Numerals? We switched from decimal to binary when we started inventing computers. That was necessitated by the hardware. So if the Romans invented computers, I suspect they would have invented binary as well. But... do computers need numbers at all? There are analog computers that don't quantize values. There are also neural nets, and fuzzy logic, and optical computers that process data in very different ways. There is still debate over exactly how our brains work! Lee -- ICEs have the same problem as lightbulbs. Why innovate and make better ones when the current ones burn out often enough to keep you in business? -- Hunter Cressall -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Roman numerals require a larger jump as there is no numeral for 0-zero.
That had to wait for the Arabic mathmatitions to invent.
Think of computing without the concept of zero.
Allison
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I guess binary would have to be 1's and 2's then! LoL... I have no idea how the hell that would work, but it's funny to try thinking about it.
On Sunday, November 24, 2019, 4:30:13 PM EST, ajparent1/kb1gmx <kb1gmx@...> wrote:
Roman numerals require a larger jump as there is no numeral for 0-zero.
That had to wait for the Arabic mathmatitions to invent.
Think of computing without the concept of zero.
Allison
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Then there is EBCDIC....
Some machine still do BCD math!? (1806, 8080, 8085. z80).
Its how the logic is organized as a BCD computer was done (several times)
but from a logic reduction standpoint a binary math solution is few gates
to get the task done.
IF we ignore that than any number system is doable.
That's also factored from the 70s where I did control interface logic for
a 8 channel tape deck that had three level logic!? If that hurts, consider
that a spindle?has a clutch that can be forward, reverse or tension, or
brake that was?on, off, or drag.? Really!? So Trinary logic of levels had
to be reduced to a two bit code.
Allison
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I cut my teeth on 370's and EBCDIC was all I knew for years.? ASCII seemed like they were just trying to be different!? I still remember "A" as C1 "a" was some other thing but who needed lower case anyway.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Then there is EBCDIC....
Some machine still do BCD math!? (1806, 8080, 8085. z80).
Its how the logic is organized as a BCD computer was done (several times)
but from a logic reduction standpoint a binary math solution is few gates
to get the task done.
IF we ignore that than any number system is doable.
That's also factored from the 70s where I did control interface logic for
a 8 channel tape deck that had three level logic!? If that hurts, consider
that a spindle?has a clutch that can be forward, reverse or tension, or
brake that was?on, off, or drag.? Really!? So Trinary logic of levels had
to be reduced to a two bit code.
Allison
|
Lee Hart
Paul Bigwood