Keyboard Shortcuts
Likes
Search
A modern BBS
|
Paul Bigwood wrote:
There is Lynx of course. This is a linux text based browser that rendersI've never used Lynx. I'll look into it. Thanks for the tip! However, I have my doubts. Modern web pages insist on using javascript, CSS, images of text instead of text itself, etc. Then, they depend on a mouse to navigate and click links; no keyboard inputs. VCFMW's own web page depends on them to display what looks like a vintage terminal. I think a Z80 would have a tough time rendering them. My own website <> doesn't use any javascript, CSS, or images to display text. But, I don't know how to have plain old HTML read or respond to keystrokes. Lee Hart -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com |
||||
|
A cpm based BBS was basically the CCP with undesired commands removed
as a base structure as it was single user.? IT was also possible to time slice who was active.? A timer interrupt make the timieg and you added process switching.? Of course that was for more than one use at a time (POTS ring down and multiple modems, so $$$). MPM based BBS uses multiple Z80s each running an instance of CP/M+ (V3). There were flavors of both. Most (after 1982) were early 8088 based running DOS or CP/M86 and fakeing mutltitasking by time slice. The big issue was enough storage for the store and forward (email) and local library. The Walnut Creek CD has a few of the BBS system content and the system software. Market:: and Simtel:: were DEC PDP10 based systems (large easily 300+ user capability). Allison |
||||
|
Lee, I was just browsing your site with Lynx with no issues.? Obviously it wouldn't render images but that was pretty much the only difference.? Also when selecting a link to a .pdf file Lynx offered to download it since of course it couldn't display it.
It won't run on sites that require javascript, not sure about CSS. The web server knows nothing about keystrokes, mouse clicks, etc, nor does it really care. It's the browser's job to translate keystrokes, mouse clicks, etc into HTTP requests which is the only thing the server concerns itself with.? That *may* not be true of Javascript, which is of course moot. |
||||
|
I just fired up an old copy of Lynx under Win32, and was able to even use Google.? It in no way requires a mouse - it uses key strokes to select the next/previous "clickable" item (or text field).? I don't know how this would map to an ASCII keyboard, instead of using the extra keys on a PC keyboard, but I bet it's been handled.? As Bob Kay said, it handles most non-JavaScript cases OK.? It even knows about cookies, allowing you to accept or reject them as they go by (or always or never).? It did not seem to handle secure websites (), which rules out an ever-increasing number of sites - the majority, even - that do not offer a non-secure connection. Mark Moulding |
||||
开云体育There’s a smaller Lynx for DOS called “Links”. I have not tried it but I did download the source for it. It also looks like it’s written in C.
Get
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Mark Moulding <mark@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 3:29:04 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Z80MC] A modern BBS ?
[Edited Message Follows] I just fired up an old copy of Lynx under Win32, and was able to even use Google.? It in no way requires a mouse - it uses key strokes to select the next/previous "clickable" item (or text field).? I don't know how this would map to an ASCII keyboard, instead
of using the extra keys on a PC keyboard, but I bet it's been handled.? As Bob Kay said, it handles most non-JavaScript cases OK.? It even knows about cookies, allowing you to accept or reject them as they go by (or always or never).? It did not seem to handle
secure websites (), which rules out an ever-increasing number of sites - the majority, even - that do not offer a non-secure connection. Mark Moulding |
||||
|
Mark Moulding wrote:
I just fired up an old copy of Lynx under Win32, and was able to evenRichard Cini wrote: There’s a smaller Lynx for DOS called “Links”. I have not tried itThis is exciting news! There are lots of CP/M C compilers (BDS-C, Small-C). I had assumed that a CP/M browser for the Z80 was a near-impossibility. But this is making it sound possible after all. So, I guess you need something that serves the same function as a modem (serial-to-phone line converter); but for serial-to-ethernet conversion? These existed for DOS; but I don't know if they were "WinModem" type gadgets that depended on DOS drivers to actually make them work. Lee Hart -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com |
||||
开云体育There is something for the Commodore computers which did just that. It was PC software, acting as serial to Ethernet bridge basically. Unfortunately I don’t remember the name; I’m trying to find it in my vast archive-o-stuff.
Get
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 7:06:31 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Z80MC] A modern BBS ?
Mark Moulding wrote:
> I just fired up an old copy of Lynx under Win32, and was able to even > use Google.? It in no way requires a mouse - it uses key strokes to > select the next/previous "clickable" item (or text field).? I don't know > how this would map to an ASCII keyboard, instead of using the extra keys > on a PC keyboard, but I bet it's been handled... > > Taking a quick look at the source, it all looks to be in pretty > plain-Jane C... Richard Cini wrote: ?> There’s a smaller Lynx for DOS called “Links”. I have not tried it ?> but I did download the source for it. It also looks like it’s written ?> in C. This is exciting news! There are lots of CP/M C compilers (BDS-C, Small-C). I had assumed that a CP/M browser for the Z80 was a near-impossibility. But this is making it sound possible after all. So, I guess you need something that serves the same function as a modem (serial-to-phone line converter); but for serial-to-ethernet conversion? These existed for DOS; but I don't know if they were "WinModem" type gadgets that depended on DOS drivers to actually make them work. Lee Hart -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. ???????? -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, |
||||
|
Found it:
and this one (a fork of one from Jim Brain): Rich -- Rich Cini ?On 8/18/20, 7:03 PM, "Lee Hart" <[email protected] on behalf of leeahart@...> wrote: Mark Moulding wrote: > I just fired up an old copy of Lynx under Win32, and was able to even > use Google. It in no way requires a mouse - it uses key strokes to > select the next/previous "clickable" item (or text field). I don't know > how this would map to an ASCII keyboard, instead of using the extra keys > on a PC keyboard, but I bet it's been handled... > > Taking a quick look at the source, it all looks to be in pretty > plain-Jane C... Richard Cini wrote: > There’s a smaller Lynx for DOS called “Links”. I have not tried it > but I did download the source for it. It also looks like it’s written > in C. This is exciting news! There are lots of CP/M C compilers (BDS-C, Small-C). I had assumed that a CP/M browser for the Z80 was a near-impossibility. But this is making it sound possible after all. So, I guess you need something that serves the same function as a modem (serial-to-phone line converter); but for serial-to-ethernet conversion? These existed for DOS; but I don't know if they were "WinModem" type gadgets that depended on DOS drivers to actually make them work. Lee Hart -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com |
||||
|
Richard Cini wrote:
There is something for the Commodore computers which did just that. ItThere was a web browser for the C64 called Con-Tiki, I think. It provided a Windows-like user interface, and used some little box to connect to the internet, via an ethernet connector, as I recall. I also remember ethernet modems for PCs. Some were plug in cards, others were like external modems that connected via the PC's RS-232 ports. I don't know how they worked. I suspect there were special software drivers that ran on the PC to talk to them. They were mainly used to network multiple PCs. I've seen a number of people who put their vintage computer on-line by using a serial port to connect it to a PC, and then software on the PC to do all the "heavy lifting" to get it on the web. But that feels a bit like cheating. :-) What I'm thinking of is far less ambitious. Basically, have a website specifically set up to be as easy as possible for vintage computers to navigate. You just need some way to get to the page. Then all the displays a simple ASCII, and you'd send it ASCII keystrokes to navigate. Lee Hart -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com |
||||
|
Contiki? has one major problem as I check often.? Its hardware specific, and
no sources.? I think it wants a C128 or similar.? Generally the Commieswere? pretty slick machines but those that could run CP/M were not typical of other CP/M systems in configuration and features.? Not always bad but standards.... CP/M in general is limited to character serial IO or something that looks like that.? That's what it knows.? However I'll add that only the OS structure, the applications running on that base can do literally anything limited only by code and memory.? Side note to that is graphics standards were generally hardware specific and not at all portable. PC modem cards were in two forms dumb (aka win modems) that required the PC cpu to do most of the lifting for flipping bits and buffering data.? The earlier and external modems (through the 56K units) were a serial port interfaced to the bus and a full modem with smarts (usually 6502 based) and used the same AT protocal to dial/connect/hangup and of couse encoding. The crappy winmodems (win95 and win98 only) were not at all popular as it ate CPU and tended to?be flakey.? ?Modems for DOS, NT, WIn2K and later had to be of the smarter(complete) form as OS was not generally friendly to drivers like the winmodems used (cpu eaters). Ethernet boards (and later wifi) were increasingly smarter and designed to relieve the cpu of workload. Drivers for them were often specific but the chipsets used were of a limited larger group so many board used the same drivers. These days you can get a whole WIFI or Ethernet to serial adaptor. The little board does most all of the work and you only need to talk at it like a very fast buffered modem. Allison |
||||
|
I think Leif even runs an internet BBS from his home.? He's a good guy, local to me, we used to see each other at the monthly TPUG meetings before covid.
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 08:18:44 p.m. EDT, Richard Cini <rich.cini@...> wrote:
Found it: and this one (a fork of one from Jim Brain): Rich -- Rich Cini ?On 8/18/20, 7:03 PM, "Lee Hart" <[email protected] on behalf of leeahart@...> wrote: ? ? Mark Moulding wrote: ? ? > I just fired up an old copy of Lynx under Win32, and was able to even ? ? > use Google.? It in no way requires a mouse - it uses key strokes to ? ? > select the next/previous "clickable" item (or text field).? I don't know ? ? > how this would map to an ASCII keyboard, instead of using the extra keys ? ? > on a PC keyboard, but I bet it's been handled... ? ? > ? ? > Taking a quick look at the source, it all looks to be in pretty ? ? > plain-Jane C... ? ? Richard Cini wrote: ? ? > There’s a smaller Lynx for DOS called “Links”. I have not tried it ? ? > but I did download the source for it. It also looks like it’s written ? ? > in C. ? ? This is exciting news! There are lots of CP/M C compilers (BDS-C, ? ? Small-C). I had assumed that a CP/M browser for the Z80 was a ? ? near-impossibility. But this is making it sound possible after all. ? ? So, I guess you need something that serves the same function as a modem ? ? (serial-to-phone line converter); but for serial-to-ethernet conversion? ? ? These existed for DOS; but I don't know if they were "WinModem" type ? ? gadgets that depended on DOS drivers to actually make them work. ? ? Lee Hart ? ? -- ? ? A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is ? ? nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. ? ? ? ? ? ? -- Antoine de Saint Exupery ? ? -- ? ? Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com |
||||
开云体育
Rather than trying to accommodate HTML and a browser.? It might be worthwhile to pursue telnet which is sort of TTY over TCP/IP.? The only hardware interface you need is the kind of ethernet card you use with an Arduino and the code is not that hard(see below).?
I have thought about a BBS for the 1802 but never found software that seemed workable - probably much easier to find something for the Z80.
I did a bunch of telnet tries on both the 1802 and Z80 with the code mostly in C. The first link is simplest code.? The second link is to a server running a simple game on a Z80 MC over both telnet and browser.
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of joshbensadon via groups.io <joshbensadon@...>
Sent: August 20, 2020 7:16 AM To: [email protected] <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Z80MC] A modern BBS ?
I think Leif even runs an internet BBS from his home.? He's a good guy, local to me, we used to see each other at the monthly TPUG meetings before covid.
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 08:18:44 p.m. EDT, Richard Cini <rich.cini@...> wrote:
Found it:
and this one (a fork of one from Jim Brain): Rich -- Rich Cini ?On 8/18/20, 7:03 PM, "Lee Hart" <[email protected] on behalf of leeahart@...> wrote: ? ? Mark Moulding wrote: ? ? > I just fired up an old copy of Lynx under Win32, and was able to even ? ? > use Google.? It in no way requires a mouse - it uses key strokes to ? ? > select the next/previous "clickable" item (or text field).? I don't know ? ? > how this would map to an ASCII keyboard, instead of using the extra keys ? ? > on a PC keyboard, but I bet it's been handled... ? ? > ? ? > Taking a quick look at the source, it all looks to be in pretty ? ? > plain-Jane C... ? ? Richard Cini wrote: ? ? > There’s a smaller Lynx for DOS called “Links”. I have not tried it ? ? > but I did download the source for it. It also looks like it’s written ? ? > in C. ? ? This is exciting news! There are lots of CP/M C compilers (BDS-C, ? ? Small-C). I had assumed that a CP/M browser for the Z80 was a ? ? near-impossibility. But this is making it sound possible after all. ? ? So, I guess you need something that serves the same function as a modem ? ? (serial-to-phone line converter); but for serial-to-ethernet conversion? ? ? These existed for DOS; but I don't know if they were "WinModem" type ? ? gadgets that depended on DOS drivers to actually make them work. ? ? Lee Hart ? ? -- ? ? A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is ? ? nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. ? ? ? ? ? ? -- Antoine de Saint Exupery ? ? -- ? ? Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com |
||||
开云体育I found this on Github that looks like a Z80 client. ? ? Rich ? -- Rich Cini ? ? On 8/20/20, 3:00 PM, "bill rowe" <[email protected] on behalf of bill_rowe_ottawa@...> wrote:
? Rather than trying to accommodate HTML and a browser.? It might be worthwhile to pursue telnet which is sort of TTY over TCP/IP.? The only hardware interface you need is the kind of ethernet card you use with an Arduino and the code is not that hard(see below).? I have thought about a BBS for the 1802 but never found software that seemed workable - probably much easier to find something for the Z80. ? I did a bunch of telnet tries on both the 1802 and Z80 with the code mostly in C. The first link is simplest code.? The second link is to a server running a simple game on a Z80 MC over both telnet and browser. ?
? ? ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of joshbensadon via groups.io <joshbensadon@...> ? I think Leif even runs an internet BBS from his home.? He's a good guy, local to me, we used to see each other at the monthly TPUG meetings before covid. ? ? ? ? On Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 08:18:44 p.m. EDT, Richard Cini <rich.cini@...> wrote: ? ? Found it: |
||||
开云体育Here’s the link… ? ? Rich ? -- Rich Cini ? ? On 8/20/20, 3:00 PM, "bill rowe" <[email protected] on behalf of bill_rowe_ottawa@...> wrote:
? Rather than trying to accommodate HTML and a browser.? It might be worthwhile to pursue telnet which is sort of TTY over TCP/IP.? The only hardware interface you need is the kind of ethernet card you use with an Arduino and the code is not that hard(see below).? I have thought about a BBS for the 1802 but never found software that seemed workable - probably much easier to find something for the Z80. ? I did a bunch of telnet tries on both the 1802 and Z80 with the code mostly in C. The first link is simplest code.? The second link is to a server running a simple game on a Z80 MC over both telnet and browser. ?
? ? ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of joshbensadon via groups.io <joshbensadon@...> ? I think Leif even runs an internet BBS from his home.? He's a good guy, local to me, we used to see each other at the monthly TPUG meetings before covid. ? ? ? ? On Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 08:18:44 p.m. EDT, Richard Cini <rich.cini@...> wrote: ? ? Found it: |
||||
|
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 20, 2020, at 3:06 PM, Richard Cini <rich.cini@...> wrote:
|
||||
开云体育Like this: ? ? There’s also the serial-ethernet bridge link I sent the other day. ? Rich ? -- Rich Cini ? ? On 8/20/20, 3:33 PM, "bill rowe" <[email protected] on behalf of bill_rowe_ottawa@...> wrote:
? It’s more the BBS server we would need to find I think.
|
||||
开云体育
maybe.? I'm not familiar with cpm or mpm - would that provide BBS functions like messaging and file downloads?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Richard Cini <rich.cini@...>
Sent: August 20, 2020 3:35 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Z80MC] A modern BBS ?
Like this: ?
? There’s also the serial-ethernet bridge link I sent the other day. ? Rich ? -- Rich Cini
? ? On 8/20/20, 3:33 PM, "bill rowe" <[email protected] on behalf of bill_rowe_ottawa@...> wrote: ? It’s more the BBS server we would need to find I think.
|
||||
|
Bill,
Yes and no.? CP/M (and multiprocessing cousin MPM) are operating systems. As such you can load a program and save a program do a directory listing. Things like ERA (erase files) would not be desired on a BBS? but reassembling? the CCP (sources exist) wold allow for removing or adding the needed functions. What makes CP/M special is its BIOS (hardware independence), BDOS (the basic Io and filesystem) and the CP (console command processor, user interface).? Because of that modularity its fairly easy to load a BBS program to replace the general utility command line processor (CCP). In many ways? PC DOS is very much like CP/M to the user at the keyboard. messaging is possible as all it is is upload a text or edit a text on the system with all the forwarding and return information and storing it to a users message files (database?). Or a program can be loaded to provide BBS (login, directory, upload, and download) would be fairly trivial.? BYE is one that provides some of that. Allison |
||||
|
Serial Ethernet is not CPnet.? ?Nor was it Ethernet as we know it since about
1987 or later. However I've worked with networking at the lower speed serial level? with collision detect and its fairly simple hardware but lots of software most of that software are the media and phyical and logical levels. At its peak I ahd three system and a print server linked using a 38Kbaud net. Systems could boot (one was diskless), copy, print (spool a file to the printerver) and any other task that connectivity makes possible.? Mail was doable but at the time I didn't have a arpanet bridge so no one to send it to.? Later it had a? mod to the print sever that would dial up (at 1200 baud) and copy a message to a BBS for forwarding or to Compuserve (about 1$ to sens a message all connect time). Networking as we know it flat out didn't exist until the mid 80s and even then it was mostly inter-company.? DEC had the largest network in 1983, almost 150 nodes (basically a computer system) with anywhere from a few to several hundred users.? By 1990, then were pushing the address space (64 major zones and 1024 addresses in each as in 57.106 my system a microVAX-II called ViDSYS::) total users about 120,000 likely more and 631,023 addressed nodes. Generally networking changed a lot from late 70s to 1990 as did networking speeds.? ?Links back 1983 could easily be a 1200baud modem (using DDCMP protocal) to a 19200 baud synchronous modem to the next building. and protocals were DECnet phase II (manual routing )? and III (automatic routing). Most of all this was covers back in the 90s on alt.sys.cpm and comp.sys.cpm (yes the old bitnet days).? ? It never advanced much from then as everyone tried to apply PC biased networking models or TCIP when UUCP was likely a better fit.?? Allison |
Lee Hart