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On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 02:58 PM, SCOTT VITALE wrote:

There are also Z80/CP/M simulators that can target different host computers (including AVR and PIC) as well as C64, ZX80, ALTAIR, AIM65, KIM-1, APPLE I, II, PDP-11, etc. software simulators available.

Wow Scott, thank you so much for all this info! (all the above is on my plate) I think I will start using Josh's info at 1st but I do need to also check out all the rec's you mentioned also and come up to speed as best as I can. The simulators you mentioned look like fun as well and I will have to try them too. Just fun stuff all around!!

BTW: I still have my APPLE //e, APPLE //gs and a 512K MAC-SE in storage. I used to develop software on the APPLE //e for a laser-show project I hobby-designed back in the mid-80's and used the SC-MACRO assembler to develop the machine-language routines.?

Yes Apple II or as I always see on my screen to my left, " the ][? " has always been one of my major faves. I even have the Mac 128K as well but not used at all tho, just kept for its history and such. My Plus still works fine too and still used. Yes, I have SC-Macro asm too for my A2 and did a bit of that as well. It was the best for my dev as well back also along with you.?

The older Kim-1 and 1802 stuff will always be other favs of mine, even more so than the A2. (and currently building my own Kim-1 similar to the microkim1 design, I have 5 projects going at once, lol) but that is were it really started for me, but alas this topic is now getting side tracked.

So to me now the Z80 is so new to me (and I did not do anything with it that much in the past really) but what I am finding is that it is really cool, more than other 8 bitters as I am seeing and somewhat knew.. and now so very exciting!

So all in all to those that replied...This info you ALL SHARED here is so appreciated more than you think. Thank you all for sharing these tips, asm's, crossasm's, os's and such for me. I will use this as a base to start my ZED80 adventure!!? 8-)

Tony:
It really depends a lot on your development environment. From your list of computers you have available, I didn't see anything "modern". WINDOWS-XP support was discontinued at least a decade ago and WINDOWS-7 support was discontinued at least a few years ago.

Personally, I USED to run WINDOWS-98 and the WINDOWS 2000 for a few years in the late 90's but all the while, I had always looked into the new but evolving OS called Linux, which wasn't ready for me at the time. Eventually, when it hit kernel version 2.4.2x in early 2000's, I decided to take the plunge and installed SLACKWARE on my main INTEL-based PC. I ran WINDOWS as a secondary computer "just in case". These days, I run Linux MINT and have not run WINDOWS as a main OS in almost 2 decades. I have all my computers set up to run a small-footprint Linux but can multi-boot into WINDOWS, DOS or a Linux-based rescue tool. I also run a Linux-based file server that operates 24/7 and supports SMART drive monitoring and software RAID with drive mirroring for redundancy. I do however, run WINDOWS-XP and WINDOWS-7 as virtual machines (VM) under Linux on my main laptop computer (TOSHIBA Satellite series circa 2011) using ORACLE's Virtual-Box, which works quite well. I've set other systems up as virtual machines such as DOS, XENIX and OS/2 WARP and they work well ... and bring back some OLD memories. :) The only reason WHY I still run WINDOWS as a VM is because when developing for the ATMEL/MICROCHIP AVR8 series of MCU's, I still prefer AVR STUDIO 4.19 over any newer version of AVR STUDIO (bloated and requires WIN-10!). For my hobby-based needs, I also use an ancient version of OrCAD/ALLEGRO for schematic capture and PCB creation, which is WINDOWS based as well but there are several free capture and layout packages available for both Linux and WINDOWS environments. There are other development tools whose only supported development environment is targeted for WINDOWS. This includes the GARMIN map updating software for my GPS. (Sigh..) I can't individually verify but I think some of the OEM's like XILINX have started to port their tolls for Linux or WINDOWS as many design engineers are using Linux for their development environment.

Linux, as a development platform, brings in many open-source projects and generating executables from source code is generally built in with the (free) GCC and G++ compilers, so unlike WINDOWS, you don't have to purchase a C compiler package. There are also many (free) tools and techniques for handling HEX, SREC and binary files, including concatenating several HEX files in a binary ROM image. Essential tools for working with the 8-bitters of the past. I prefer the SREC tools for such occasions. With Linux, there are also tools and techniques for interacting with your VM's virtual serial-I/O and virtual network cards using either the various Linux terminal emulators (I like PICOCOM) or even using SSH from a different (networked) computer altogether. In the past, 1990's, I spent many hours writing DOS and OS/2 batch and command files to support various situations on various computers in my employer's small engineering house. 4DOS/4OS2 and REXX really helped in that situation. Now, under Linux, developing custom scripts is so much easier and using pipes for inter-program communications at the scripting level makes things so much more versatile and easier. I can create an entire software build script? under Linux that will assemble, link and upload my code to my target platform.?

In summary, your choice of development environment will dictate what tools you will have available to use.

On the Z80 development, as Josh stated, different assemblers have different features and abilities. And of course, that also depends on their supported host platform too! These days, you can find a lot of DOS-based tools (like TASM) available for free. Even some of Dave Dunfield's DOS-based tools are available and still function well under Linux's DOSBOX and QEMU. For the WINDOWS command line tools, you can use WINE, a WINDOWS emulator for Linux. There are a few assemblers available that can be compiled for Linux, WINDOWS or MAC-OS executables. There are also Z80/CP/M simulators that can target different host computers (including AVR and PIC) as well as C64, ZX80, ALTAIR, AIM65, KIM-1, APPLE I, II, PDP-11, etc. software simulators available, so getting back into the 8-bitters of the past is much easier, much less costly and much more enjoyable to enter into. Many of these simulators have built-in debugging features that one would have had to pay $$$$ for the hardware version "back in the day".

And yes, I compliment Josh on his exceptional commenting abilities in the Z80MBC monitor's source code. And yes, Josh, I've spent many hours studying your code. :)

Here are the assemblers I currently have installed under Linux. Generally speaking, I try to use an assembler that assemblers someone's source code without too many errors. Its likely that you'll have to massage code to match your choice of assembler's syntax and such but using a search-and-replace function in your editor (I use MEDIT) speeds that sometimes extremely tedious task up for you.

Josh uses Bruce Tomlin's ASMX for the Z80MBC assembly.

Also, there are a few C compilers available for the Z80. SDCC seems to be the primary choice.

BTW: I still have my APPLE //e, APPLE //gs and a 512K MAC-SE in storage. I used to develop software on the APPLE //e for a laser-show project I hobby-designed back in the mid-80's and used the SC-MACRO assembler to develop the machine-language routines.?

I hope some of the info I conveyed will be of use to you.

Peace and blessings,
Scott

I use a small list of assemblers due to the abundance of assemblers in the
world and very few using a standard or even similar syntax.

So on Z80 CPM:

DRC ASM, MAC?
ASMZ (old version from 40years ago)
Avocet ASM80 (also for 6800, 6502, and a dozen more).
?And just about all of the ones on the Walnut creek CP/M CD.

For dos/dosemu a very similar set most picked to be compatible with the CP/M kit.
(dosemu is because I mostly run linux on intel or ARM).
Same for PDP-11 under rt11 and RSX11 and VAX (OpenVMS).? I used all of those
systems and more and have a lineup of CP/M systems, PDP-8f, several PDP11
and VAX based systems to run on.? Add to that 6502, and 1802 and many others
as well.

Most of the CPUs if it runs an OS (808/8085/z80, 6502, 1802, PDP-8, PDP11, VAX)
I usually have a ASM native to that on the platform as well as cross assemblers.

I did the same years ago with teco compatible visual editor (Vteco, Vedit,
KED, EDT, TPU, LSE and friends) so a file could go from platform to platform
and still look and edit in a similar way on a VT100 or VT220/320 terminal
or PC. I prefer to spend time of the code not dealing with new editors.

In the end is more about what you like or the code if someone elses
assembles on.? Likely the native platform is PC (predominent) so thats
a fairly easy one to fine assemblers of multiple different origins for.

Allison

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 06:04 PM, Bob Kay wrote:

studying the Z80MC is time very well spent.

Also, if you don't have the SIO board, you're missing quite a treat.

Hi Bob,
Oh yes I have been looking threw it most of this afternoon, and wow, I love the stuff in there. Its great and I know it will help me to understand alot of what you guys are doing with the Z80 and its routines. Fun stuff and Oh yea I got the SIO board as well, still ordering a few small parts, most of which I already have.? I am very excited about the design of it and really the entire MC itself. This is gonna be fun city!
-Tony

tony,

I would suggest any time you spend studying the Z80MC ROM, ZMCV15.asm, is time very well spent.? Josh's style is clear and readable and his comments are plentiful and excellent.

Also, if you don't have the SIO board, you're missing quite a treat.

-Bob

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 01:43 PM, joshbensadon wrote:

If you look in my source code, I list the assembler I use for it

LOL!! Thats funny. In all of Lee's designs I burnt my own eeproms from the listing on most all of Lee's sites as I was building them and downloaded them all. The VIP2K, The MC, The small MC card. This one for the Z80MC, Lee was gracious to give me a burnt eeprom already so I never bothered to look at the Monitor program.

Thanks Josh, yannoo the same old story... RTFM! hehe.

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 11:23 AM, Bob Kay wrote:

Of course there are many others out there, but those are the ones I use most often.

Oh thanks Bob!
Yea I will try all the ones you mentioned. I dont have any serious time limits and I love to try out all this new stuff. I will look into that the more I build my new Z80MC. Thanks a bunch.
-Tony

Hi Tony,

Mike Riley's RcAsm has a .def file for Z80s, so you can use that if you wish.

There is an assembler called asmx (available on Herb's retrotechnology site) that can handle Z80 instructions as well as 1802 of course.

My usual goto Z80 assembler is zmac.? There are a couple variants around on the web, one source is .

Of course there are many others out there, but those are the ones I use most often.

-Bob

Hi guys,
Being new to the Z80 world, is there any good recommendations of a nice assembler for this processor. I have a 6502 S-C Macro asm for my Apple2 and can run the Z80 card on it as well but I only ever used it for CP/M and did not have any asm capability for the zed80 on it.

Not really interested in an assembler for the Apple but I am currently running Windows XP in my lab and I do have the Raspberry Pi4 tho as well for quicker use and such. I do have an old working Mac plus and a power Macintosh 6100 in my computer room as well as a few Commodore 64's and a 128 if some older cross compilers are available. Thanks in advance.

-Tony

On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 04:19 PM, Lee Hart wrote:

For those who might be interested, VTL is an interpreter (like BASIC). The manual for it is here:

Thanks for the pdf Lee!

ajparent1/kb1gmx wrote:

Lee, You are far from alone on that. I have maybe a dozen boxes of
those that I've retained over the years. They tend to reflect my
interest in 8080/8085/z80 and other cpus of the day especially
software of all forms.
Byte, Kilobaud, DDobbs, S100 Micrcomputing, Microcomputing, QST
(also my interests with radio), Ham Radio, and Popular Electronics and
Radio Electronics.

I think the fascination for me is that I can read these old articles and *understand* them. They were written at a time when everyone was a beginner.

The chips were also more straightforward; the datasheets might be only a dozen pages.

Today, the computer journals are so obtuse that I can't make any sense of them. And the datasheets have become 1000-page incomprehensible monsters.

VTL, that was an interesting beast. It was when people were doing
TinyBasic and other small languages. Often the goal was fit it in a
1k or 2K eproms (2708 and 2716 in the day). I morphed VTL into a
command line monitor as a somewhat primitive script language and
operating environment.
VTL was not so much fast as strikingly compact. Less code more
speed.

For those who might be interested, VTL is an interpreter (like BASIC). The manual for it is here:



VTL took the "everything is an expression" route. Every line is of the form "line# variable=expression". All the letters A-Z are variables; but so are many of the punctuation symbols. But the punctuation symbols are "system variables" that do extra things. For example, ? is print, # is the next line#, * is end of memory, & is start of memory, etc. So...

#=number is your GOTO line#. #=1 runs the program from the beginning.
&=0 is clear program, because it sets the program size to zero.
*=0 exits VTL, by setting its size to zero.

IF is accomplished by a calculated GOTO. 0 is an illegal line#, so you can't GOTO it. So

20 #=(X=25)*50 means GOTO line 50 if X=25; else continue to the next line.

! is the last line#+1. So RETURN is #=! (GOTO the last line of the caller).

Peculiar; but it works!

Lee
--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 11:12 AM, Lee Hart wrote:

I too still have all my old Byte, Dr.Dobbs, REMark, Sextant, QST, etc. magazines, and often go on "archeological digs" for information and entertainment.

Lee,
You are far from alone on that.? I have maybe a dozen boxes of those?that
I've retained over the years.??They tend to reflect my interest in 8080/8085/z80
and other cpus of the day especially software of all forms.

Byte, Kilobaud,? DDobbs, S100 Micrcomputing, Microcomputing, QST (also
my interests with radio), Ham Radio, and Popular Electroncs and Radio Electronics.

VTL, that was an interesting beast.? It was when people were doing TinyBasic
and other small languages.? Often the goal was fit it in a 1k or 2K eproms
(2708 and 2716 in the day)? I morphed VTL into a command line monitor
as a somewhat primitive script language and operating environment.??

VFL was not somuch fast as strikingly compact.? Less code more speed.


Allison

On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 02:06 PM, ajparent1/kb1gmx wrote:

For me its 44 years of z80 and still running.

Wow Allison I read your use of the z80. Its so cool to read that, as well as the fact that its still running for that processor. Im already hooked onto it. Yea I was a 6502 guy from way back and still like it. I think because of the lack of time in my past I let go more interesting micro's like the Z80. So true about its availability to this day. I am going to really like re discovering that micro all over again and even more now.


On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 02:12 PM, Lee Hart wrote:

Mike Riley wrote a version of it for the 1802, and last night I was using it to run some old VTL programs from the 1970's. Great fun. :-)

I heard it was small but wow thats is tiny. I have been playing around with it too Lee and its a bit cryptic (as I have been a C programmer for years, so really.... what is cryptic, lol) but it is really fun to run on the 1802. VTL2 seems to be a really cool little program! I was so fascinated to see it was faster than Pilot too.

Dynamic ram refresh is in all the Z80 flavor s (Z80, Z180,Z280...).
I have a paper done by Tim Olmstead on how to use refresh and
make it work.? ?I'll have to put that in the files area.

FYI the worst example of its use were some S100 memory cards
and the early TRS80 console. All cases it was trying to either
attempting to cheap out or lack of understanding of Drams and
also Z80.? ?These days Static Ram in the 32k (61256) or 64K (61512)
sizes is the end all solution.? That is especially true when using the
faster than 4mhz z80s.

saturn5tony via groups.io wrote:

Oh so true about looking at old Bytes and PE. I have been reading them every day for quite a few years now, as well as RE.

I too still have all my old Byte, Dr.Dobbs, REMark, Sextant, QST, etc. magazines, and often go on "archeological digs" for information and entertainment.

I recently got interested in VTL (Very Tiny Language), which was a competitor for Tiny BASIC back in the 1970's. It really *is* tiny... 768 bytes! Yet it's both faster and more memory efficient than BASIC. Mike Riley wrote a version of it for the 1802, and last night I was using it to run some old VTL programs from the 1970's. Great fun. :-)

Lee

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.

Z80,

Been developing and using the Z80 since I got my Northstar Z80 cpu
for Altair in early 1977 at that time a 4mhz part or easily twice the
8080 speed.

I have not less than...
5 Z80 s100 systems??
3 Z80 SBCs? (amproLB+ is still in regular use).
12 VT180 (two complete and 10 Z80 boards which
? ? ?are complete systems sans terminal).? The VT180
? ? ?was a VT100 terminal with a serial connection to a
? ? ?Z80 system floppy and IO complete and 64K of ram.
? ? ?The only shared thing was power supply, case and
? ? ?used the VT100 power on reset signal.
2 TRS80 (early)
And many SBCs of my design using Z80.

I also have a later set of systems based on Z180 (z80 with
integrated peripherals) and Z280 a really extended Z80
with 16 bit bus.

Its a versatile CPU that had dominated the 8bit world?
and the only other that had a significant presence was
the 6502 (AppleII and friends).? ?Both have demonstrated
extended life compared to many.? ?They are the two that
still appear the most besides 8085 and 1802.? Other well
knowns that seem to have disappeared are?6800, TI9900
(not the console but the CPU), Signetics 2650.? What
helped the Z80 stay alive was speed by '81 6mhz was
delivered and a year or two later 8mhz parts.? Now its
possible to find 10 and even 20mhz parts.

It had staying power because of speed,? instruction set and?
peripherals (and could use 8080/8085 supporting parts as well).
Its instruction set including all the 8080 have a large selection
of 16 bit and extended instructions with options for increment
or decrement and repeat.? My favorite is JP NZ,target (also
seen as DJNZ target).? There are three instruction mnemonic
sets in use, official Zilog, one I call Alternate-80 extended,
and TDL.? The latter two use the format most common to
8080/8085.

As to compatibility with 8080, there were a few programs that
behaved wrong on Z80 and that was early.? Later compatible
8080 code noted the small differences in flag use and avoided
those traps.? Smaller systems suffered that but it was both flag
and IO devices used that caused code uniqueness that made
code incompatible.? ?Most of the CP/M 80 applications was
compatible 8080 unless marked as Z80 required [used
extended instructions].? Generally 8080 was binary compatible
with Z80 but and only in carefully crafted cases the reverse
by avoiding the z80 unique instructions.

Comment to date I've not found any z80 that didn't have the
"unsupported instructions".? Same for the 8085 "hidden instructions".
By that point in time semiconductor makers understood the need
to be completely compatible as in identical.

Generally a CP/M user, either CP/M2.2 flavor or Zrdos.?
I have on S100? NorthStar? Horizons that run
NSdos a primitive tag and bag disk monitor but one
of the early mini-floppy (5.25") disk systems as part
of the main box.? There is also Uzi-Z80 a unix look alike.
Most of the other OSs are in the rare or platform unique l
ike TRSdos/Ldos and MSX.? There are a large set of real
time OSs for Z80 as well.

For me its 44 years of z80 and still running.

Allison

On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 01:18 PM, Lee Hart wrote:

The features of the Z80 that I really like are:

- simple hardware interface: single 5v supply, simple clock, logical easy-to-use address, data, and control signals.
- included dynamic RAM refresh (important then, less so today).
- rich instruction set: not just the basics, but also relative jumps, 16-bit operations, block moves, indexed addressing, etc.
- plenty of registers, including a duplicate set that can be swapped with a single fast instruction.
- an excellent fast, vectored interrupt structure.

Hi Lee,
Wow cool list of things to keep in mind. I did not know about dyno-ram refresh ability. I am still going threw the docs and filling up my parts list for the Z80MC. Wow a really awesome design here. I love this board as well as the SIO too. I have been updating some of my old (and new) info with some guys on youtube as well. I found one bright fellow that talks about the z80 called "Advent Of Computing". Fun guy to listen to, but I disagree with him about the words "micro computer" that we talk about. I call them all micros and I always will, lol