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Re: A modern BBS
The last several are good examples of how you can get from the 'net to a?
old school system being CP/M based on a PDP-11 that is sans native networking.? The interface between the network and the 80 system is console terminal (or simulation). While checking on something else I found the KA9Q networking package and telnet for Z80 exists...? ?However it will NOT run on a minimal Z80. The compile package is about half a megabyte so the system would require a hard disk minimally, BDS-C and assembler.? Required hardware is Z80 with banking or MMU and the protocol is AX25 so a Z80 SIO or better 8350 is a required item.? That means the other end has to talk AX25 and have a matching physical level.? Why it existed...? Ham radio VHF Packet networks were a thing from the late 70s though the 80s and? allowed email and files to be transferred though digi-peters? digital repeater that did store and forward and poor mans routing (origin call and destination ham call letters) as well.? ?When internet access became fairly easy and palatable cheap it was adopted over the VHF Packet network.? There is a Digi-peter on the ARISS. I have the full code package and the owner disavowed it back in the early 90s so assists would be an on your on and hope the code base is complete (it could be missing stuf...).? I archived all I could find back when. I also found CPC-IP [amstrand another z80 extended system] and that does more but that also maybe abandoned-ware and worse hardware specific. Keep in mind CP/M--Z80 is generally always flat 64K address space and banking can get you room by parking least frequency used? stuff in a mapped section of ram(or rom).? The resident part of the CPC-IP is said to be over 14K and with cleaver work that means the free space of (TPA) will be under 40K.? Most Compilers and languages of useful functionality want 48K minimum. On a vanilla box with a reasonable BIOS(about 8k if resident) that is usually is 56K without banking or hiding software above the BIOS which makes that space smaller.? ?With banking hardware? its possible to get to 62K (maybe a bit more) TPA and hide some of the resident extension above the bios in banked memory. That kind of stuff is not in the CP/M alteration guide but the OS really does not say can't. I can throw both in the files area, they are easily a megabyte total and a lot of zips (over 100 files).? ? Also I have not ascertained their copyright status if any, no need to for my own interests but, public posting them is well, on you. Allison |
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Re: A modern BBS
开云体育Hi,I telnet to my p112 cp/m system console, via Terry’s Ethernet p112 serial adapter board. It even automatically powers & boots upon establishment of the telnet session. Mark G. Thomas (Mark@...), KC3DRE On Aug 21, 2020, at 15:52, ajparent1/kb1gmx <kb1gmx@...> wrote:
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Re: A modern BBS
Chiming in here:
I still use LINKSYS WRT-54G wireless routers running DD-WRT. They all support TELNET logins (port 23), which is the insecure predecessor to SSH (port 22). I use TELNET to log into them when I wish to do something 'internal' that is not directly supported by the web interface. LANTRONIX used to make a print server that had 10BASE-T ethernet to CENTRONIX parallel port AND RS-232 (EPS-1 and? EPS-2). It supported many TCP protocols ... including TELNET. I have one of each in storage and used them both back in early 2000's. See PDF attached. It would be the ideal solution for an "INTERNET BBS" run transparently to the Z80 BBS. So all you really need is a protocol converter, TELNET to RS-232 (or TTL serial), which makes the TELNET connection transparent to the Z80-run BBS using RS-232. If you are to host this Z80 BBS using a TELNET-2-RS232 converter in your home (or business) and you don't have a static IP address assigned to your INTERNET connection, then you would need to acquire a dynamic DNS account (i.e. ) to auto-magically map your chosen domain name to your dynamic IP address. You would also need to assign a static IP address to the TELNET-2-RS232 converter's MAC address, so it has the same IP address assigned on your internal IntraNET, then create a port-forwarding formula on your router to map an incoming INTERNET IP/PORT (i.e. port 8023) to the TELNET-2-RS232 converter's TELNET port, which is 23. I should also mention that a linux box (Raspberry PI) running SOCAT could *easily* be used instead for TELNET <-> TTL-serial. As is usual in these days of "modern computing technology", you just need to emulate what you require. Be it in software or hardware. Hope this info helps... Peace and blessings. Scott |
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Re: A modern BBS
A description of Citadel one of many BBS system Another quite popular was RBBS and BBS.
BBS systems did a few things: File sharing (upload and download) (X,Y Z, modem and other protocals) a mail messaging system system? a user to use chat system (some system did others didn't) Most BBS worked on issues like securing the system, preventing file damage,? locking out undesired users, Login/Logout,? if messaging/mail then also? keeping messages secure even if group readable. Description from 1982. /**/
/* aaBuyMe.doc */
/**/
/**/
/* History */
/* */
/* 82Dec06 CrT Created. */
/**/
/**/
/* Audience */
/* */
/* People considering installing the Citadel BB system. */
/**/
/**/
/* Purpose */
/* */
/* Impart a sense of the flavor, structure and purpose of the system. */
/**/
Citadel is a room-structured message system. The fundamental
design goal is to provide a congenial forum conducive to interesting
discussions. The software is intended to be as unobtrusive, unintrusive
and unconstraining as possible. In software as elsewhere, good engineering
is whatever gets the job done without calling attention to itself.
The fundamental design metaphor is that of a building consisting of
a series of independent rooms, each of which hosts a discussion devoted
to a particular topic. Messages are stored and retrieved in chronological
order within each room. Messages are formatted to the caller's screen width.
Callers may travel freely between the rooms,
reading old messages and posting new ones. New rooms may be created
at will, and old ones are deleted when they empty of messages.
People familiar with other electronic message systems may wish
to compare Citadel rooms with EIES conferences, ArpaNet mailing
lists, individual "linear" BB systems or whatever; the parallels
are not exact but the functions are similar.
The fundamental Goto, Read and Enter commands have been streamlined
as much as possible. The message display format has a minimum of
unnecessary noise: the topic is implicit in the message's location
within a room, no explicit TO field is present, no message ID # is
printed, no redundant "END OF MESSAGE" blurbs etc. The most common Goto,
Read and Enter commands are all single-key. Citadel automatically
skips rooms which have no new messages, and old messages in the
current room. (Less concise commands are of course available to
override this.)
Citadel Version 1 offered no more than the above, and was
quite well recieved. Version 2 leaves the basic structure unchanged,
but adds some additional peripheral capabilites. Private person-to-
person mail is now supported. Private rooms can host restricted
conferences. Once visited, private rooms behave exactly like regular
rooms to the participants, but they are not accessable to others who
don't know the name of the room. The sysop can set up some rooms to
be windows onto designated disk/userspace areas. These directory
rooms support the usual message functions, but also allow one to
to do directory listings by wildcard match, or to upload and download
files via Ward Christensen's protocol. Various rough edges have been
smoothed off. The message code has been reworked to support automatic
networking of Citadel nodes.
Citadel is written in BDS C. The distributed system can be
installed and run without recompilation in most cases. Citadel
needs CP/M 2.xx, at least 300K of disk space, an auto-answer modem,
and 64K RAM. (i.e., a 0100 -> CF00 TPA, at least). The source
files run to about 150K, the .com files to about 100K. In an
functioning system, the message and userlog files together take about
100K, and one would normally like about 200K for message text, to
keep the wraparound time longer than a week. The code is a simple
public-domain release: it can be used without fee in commercial
systems, repackaged and sold, or whatever takes your fancy. (As
a matter of good form, a pointer to the parent code would be nice,
of course.) The author takes no responsibility for the correctness,
reliability, security, use, abuse, contents or clientele of any
Citadel installation. The release of version 2.1 concludes the
author's involvement with the package.
? |
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Re: A modern BBS
Bill,
There is no known to me TELNET for Z80, those BBS ran either DOS or a flavor of unix like software [Netware, Venix, Minix] on 8088 or later than 1986ish? maybe 286 or 386 hardware. Telnet to a Rpi? to a serial line to the CP/M engine (or CP/M emulator on Rpi) would be doable. I have a copy f Dave Dunfileds Myhorizon that runs under dosemu on my linux machine that is accessible via telnet.? So its very "doable". Allison |
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Re: A modern BBS
>>>It would be straightforward to bring up a BBS on a Z80 like this with a standard phone modem. But that requires a "land line". I doubt that many people would want to call it -- especially since us vintage computer fans are spread so far and wide that it would be a long distance call.<<<
A direct solution is instead of POTS (old skool term for the basic phone service) compatible modem at the end of a serial line use one of the serial connected Ethernet or Wifi modems. Or use a Rpi[0,1,2,3,4) or similar as a bridge from modern networks to serial line to CP/M machine. Allison |
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Re: A modern BBS
The “modem emulator” programs, like the link I sent the other day, will basically traffic serial over Ethernet using a PC, sort of like the all-in-one solutions from Olimex and Wiznet (??) which are board-level products.
I have a test setup in the shop so I hope to play around with this a bit. I have a PC with a Digi-PCI 8-port serial board, some modems, an analog telephone switch and BBS software (SynchroNET, which I think also does TCP) running on XP. I’ve seen a Z80 BBS running within an emulator, but of course that’s not real hardware. This is an interesting listing of Citadel versions: Rich -- Rich Cini ?On 8/21/20, 11:39 AM, "Lee Hart" <[email protected] on behalf of leeahart@...> wrote: bill rowe wrote: > I can't help thinking telnet is a good answer to this. it gives you a > tty interface over the internet with simple hardware and can be run on > small systems. I know there are telnet bbs's - i just don't know if > they run on z80's. I've never run across telnet. I'll have to look it up and see what it is! > even a chat program would be a fun start. If it's capable of functioning as a serial link between two computers, I would think it could work with any of the BBS software that worked with modems. We probably don't really need a vintage machine on the server end; that could be a PC or something modern with mass storage. But the client end would need Z80 CP/M software. It still leaves me uncertain of how a Z80 connects to the web with telnet. Hardware-wise, I assume it still needs to talk to an ethernet connection on your router? Lee -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com |
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Re: A modern BBS
bill rowe wrote:
I can't help thinking telnet is a good answer to this. it gives you aI've never run across telnet. I'll have to look it up and see what it is! even a chat program would be a fun start.If it's capable of functioning as a serial link between two computers, I would think it could work with any of the BBS software that worked with modems. We probably don't really need a vintage machine on the server end; that could be a PC or something modern with mass storage. But the client end would need Z80 CP/M software. It still leaves me uncertain of how a Z80 connects to the web with telnet. Hardware-wise, I assume it still needs to talk to an ethernet connection on your router? Lee -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com |
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Re: A modern BBS
开云体育
>It
would be straightforward to bring up a BBS on a Z80 like this with a
>standard phone modem. But that requires a "land line". I doubt that many >people would want to call it -- especially since us vintage computer >fans are spread so far and wide that it would be a long distance call. I can't help thinking telnet is a good answer to this.? it gives you a tty interface over the internet with simple hardware and can be run on small systems.? I know there are telnet bbs's - i just don't know if they run on z80's.
even a chat program would be a fun start.
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Sent: August 21, 2020 12:19 AM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Z80MC] A modern BBS ?
> The Walnut Creek CD has a few of the BBS system content and the system
> software. It would be straightforward to bring up a BBS on a Z80 like this with a standard phone modem. But that requires a "land line". I doubt that many people would want to call it -- especially since us vintage computer fans are spread so far and wide that it would be a long distance call. Lee Hart |
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Re: A modern BBS
ajparent1/kb1gmx wrote:
A cpm based BBS was basically the CCP with undesired commands removed...I once got a used S-100 computer (made by SD Sales around 1980) that worked like that. It ran MP/M, and had a 4 MHz Z80 as its "master" CPU, 256k of banked RAM, a Corvus hard drive, and an "I/O-8" card with eight Z80-SIO serial ports. The computer was used for some kind of BBS-like setup for a company. It had 8 modems on the serial ports, so salesmen could dial in to check stock, place orders, etc. The I/O-8 card had its own Z80 and RAM, which created FIFOs for all the channels, which the main CPU would service. It would have been interesting to see it work. But I only got the computer itself, without the modems or hard drive. I converted it to use floppies and ran regular CP/M on it. The Walnut Creek CD has a few of the BBS system content and the systemIt would be straightforward to bring up a BBS on a Z80 like this with a standard phone modem. But that requires a "land line". I doubt that many people would want to call it -- especially since us vintage computer fans are spread so far and wide that it would be a long distance call. Lee Hart -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com |
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Re: A modern BBS
Serial Ethernet is not CPnet.? ?Nor was it Ethernet as we know it since about
1987 or later. However I've worked with networking at the lower speed serial level? with collision detect and its fairly simple hardware but lots of software most of that software are the media and phyical and logical levels. At its peak I ahd three system and a print server linked using a 38Kbaud net. Systems could boot (one was diskless), copy, print (spool a file to the printerver) and any other task that connectivity makes possible.? Mail was doable but at the time I didn't have a arpanet bridge so no one to send it to.? Later it had a? mod to the print sever that would dial up (at 1200 baud) and copy a message to a BBS for forwarding or to Compuserve (about 1$ to sens a message all connect time). Networking as we know it flat out didn't exist until the mid 80s and even then it was mostly inter-company.? DEC had the largest network in 1983, almost 150 nodes (basically a computer system) with anywhere from a few to several hundred users.? By 1990, then were pushing the address space (64 major zones and 1024 addresses in each as in 57.106 my system a microVAX-II called ViDSYS::) total users about 120,000 likely more and 631,023 addressed nodes. Generally networking changed a lot from late 70s to 1990 as did networking speeds.? ?Links back 1983 could easily be a 1200baud modem (using DDCMP protocal) to a 19200 baud synchronous modem to the next building. and protocals were DECnet phase II (manual routing )? and III (automatic routing). Most of all this was covers back in the 90s on alt.sys.cpm and comp.sys.cpm (yes the old bitnet days).? ? It never advanced much from then as everyone tried to apply PC biased networking models or TCIP when UUCP was likely a better fit.?? Allison |
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Re: A modern BBS
Bill,
Yes and no.? CP/M (and multiprocessing cousin MPM) are operating systems. As such you can load a program and save a program do a directory listing. Things like ERA (erase files) would not be desired on a BBS? but reassembling? the CCP (sources exist) wold allow for removing or adding the needed functions. What makes CP/M special is its BIOS (hardware independence), BDOS (the basic Io and filesystem) and the CP (console command processor, user interface).? Because of that modularity its fairly easy to load a BBS program to replace the general utility command line processor (CCP). In many ways? PC DOS is very much like CP/M to the user at the keyboard. messaging is possible as all it is is upload a text or edit a text on the system with all the forwarding and return information and storing it to a users message files (database?). Or a program can be loaded to provide BBS (login, directory, upload, and download) would be fairly trivial.? BYE is one that provides some of that. Allison |
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Re: A modern BBS
开云体育
maybe.? I'm not familiar with cpm or mpm - would that provide BBS functions like messaging and file downloads?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Richard Cini <rich.cini@...>
Sent: August 20, 2020 3:35 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Z80MC] A modern BBS ?
Like this: ?
? There’s also the serial-ethernet bridge link I sent the other day. ? Rich ? -- Rich Cini
? ? On 8/20/20, 3:33 PM, "bill rowe" <[email protected] on behalf of bill_rowe_ottawa@...> wrote: ? It’s more the BBS server we would need to find I think.
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Re: A modern BBS
开云体育Like this: ? ? There’s also the serial-ethernet bridge link I sent the other day. ? Rich ? -- Rich Cini ? ? On 8/20/20, 3:33 PM, "bill rowe" <[email protected] on behalf of bill_rowe_ottawa@...> wrote:
? It’s more the BBS server we would need to find I think.
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Re: A modern BBS
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 20, 2020, at 3:06 PM, Richard Cini <rich.cini@...> wrote:
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Re: A modern BBS
开云体育Here’s the link… ? ? Rich ? -- Rich Cini ? ? On 8/20/20, 3:00 PM, "bill rowe" <[email protected] on behalf of bill_rowe_ottawa@...> wrote:
? Rather than trying to accommodate HTML and a browser.? It might be worthwhile to pursue telnet which is sort of TTY over TCP/IP.? The only hardware interface you need is the kind of ethernet card you use with an Arduino and the code is not that hard(see below).? I have thought about a BBS for the 1802 but never found software that seemed workable - probably much easier to find something for the Z80. ? I did a bunch of telnet tries on both the 1802 and Z80 with the code mostly in C. The first link is simplest code.? The second link is to a server running a simple game on a Z80 MC over both telnet and browser. ?
? ? ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of joshbensadon via groups.io <joshbensadon@...> ? I think Leif even runs an internet BBS from his home.? He's a good guy, local to me, we used to see each other at the monthly TPUG meetings before covid. ? ? ? ? On Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 08:18:44 p.m. EDT, Richard Cini <rich.cini@...> wrote: ? ? Found it: |
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Re: A modern BBS
开云体育I found this on Github that looks like a Z80 client. ? ? Rich ? -- Rich Cini ? ? On 8/20/20, 3:00 PM, "bill rowe" <[email protected] on behalf of bill_rowe_ottawa@...> wrote:
? Rather than trying to accommodate HTML and a browser.? It might be worthwhile to pursue telnet which is sort of TTY over TCP/IP.? The only hardware interface you need is the kind of ethernet card you use with an Arduino and the code is not that hard(see below).? I have thought about a BBS for the 1802 but never found software that seemed workable - probably much easier to find something for the Z80. ? I did a bunch of telnet tries on both the 1802 and Z80 with the code mostly in C. The first link is simplest code.? The second link is to a server running a simple game on a Z80 MC over both telnet and browser. ?
? ? ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of joshbensadon via groups.io <joshbensadon@...> ? I think Leif even runs an internet BBS from his home.? He's a good guy, local to me, we used to see each other at the monthly TPUG meetings before covid. ? ? ? ? On Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 08:18:44 p.m. EDT, Richard Cini <rich.cini@...> wrote: ? ? Found it: |
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Re: A modern BBS
开云体育
Rather than trying to accommodate HTML and a browser.? It might be worthwhile to pursue telnet which is sort of TTY over TCP/IP.? The only hardware interface you need is the kind of ethernet card you use with an Arduino and the code is not that hard(see below).?
I have thought about a BBS for the 1802 but never found software that seemed workable - probably much easier to find something for the Z80.
I did a bunch of telnet tries on both the 1802 and Z80 with the code mostly in C. The first link is simplest code.? The second link is to a server running a simple game on a Z80 MC over both telnet and browser.
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of joshbensadon via groups.io <joshbensadon@...>
Sent: August 20, 2020 7:16 AM To: [email protected] <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Z80MC] A modern BBS ?
I think Leif even runs an internet BBS from his home.? He's a good guy, local to me, we used to see each other at the monthly TPUG meetings before covid.
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 08:18:44 p.m. EDT, Richard Cini <rich.cini@...> wrote:
Found it:
and this one (a fork of one from Jim Brain): Rich -- Rich Cini ?On 8/18/20, 7:03 PM, "Lee Hart" <[email protected] on behalf of leeahart@...> wrote: ? ? Mark Moulding wrote: ? ? > I just fired up an old copy of Lynx under Win32, and was able to even ? ? > use Google.? It in no way requires a mouse - it uses key strokes to ? ? > select the next/previous "clickable" item (or text field).? I don't know ? ? > how this would map to an ASCII keyboard, instead of using the extra keys ? ? > on a PC keyboard, but I bet it's been handled... ? ? > ? ? > Taking a quick look at the source, it all looks to be in pretty ? ? > plain-Jane C... ? ? Richard Cini wrote: ? ? > There’s a smaller Lynx for DOS called “Links”. I have not tried it ? ? > but I did download the source for it. It also looks like it’s written ? ? > in C. ? ? This is exciting news! There are lots of CP/M C compilers (BDS-C, ? ? Small-C). I had assumed that a CP/M browser for the Z80 was a ? ? near-impossibility. But this is making it sound possible after all. ? ? So, I guess you need something that serves the same function as a modem ? ? (serial-to-phone line converter); but for serial-to-ethernet conversion? ? ? These existed for DOS; but I don't know if they were "WinModem" type ? ? gadgets that depended on DOS drivers to actually make them work. ? ? Lee Hart ? ? -- ? ? A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is ? ? nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. ? ? ? ? ? ? -- Antoine de Saint Exupery ? ? -- ? ? Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com |
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Re: Z80MC Front panel problem.
Paul, It's not a problem.? It's just not well explained in the manual.? The FE soft reset is detected in the Keyboard Scanning within the ISR.? It is to bring you back to the Monitor program, but if you are already in the monitor program it does nothing but still sets a flag that the next reset is via FE Soft.? Now, the next F0 reset gets reported as FE. If you enter a program at 8000 and run it, then try the FE, it should return you to the monitor mode. Examine 8000 Modify and enter C3 00 80? ?(jump to 8000) Examine the PC Change to 8000 RUN (Go?) Your status light should change from Monitor mode to Run mode. The front panel monitor should still be working fine (but not the RS-232). This is because FP Monitor is all in the ISR, while the RS-232 is mainline code (which is now executing a JMP $) FE should return you to monitor mode. Sorry for the confusion...? Cheers, Josh
On Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 03:22:32 p.m. EDT, Paul Bigwood <paul@...> wrote:
I've got wierd problem on my Front panel board. All keys work fine and display and LEDs are ok, but the F+E soft reset doesnt do anything. F+0 does a Hard Reset with display showing F-0? 01,, after a power up, but after doing something like E 8000 and a few steps up or down ,pressing F+E for a Soft reset does nothing. Pressing F+0 displays Soft? 01? Ive checked the board for shorts, and component values ( wondered if one of the R1 10k had gone o/c? but cant work out what has gone wrong.? Any pointers appreciated. Paul G3WYW |
Lee Hart