I also have an issue with the 8 not working, but i chalked it up to me messing up the build. I will try to see if I can find time to test out your theory this weekend.
-=-
Brett
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-------- Original Message -------- On 3/28/25 12:46 PM, Lee Hart via groups.io - leeahart=earthlink.net at groups.io <leeahart_earthlink_net_at_groups_io_wswmxnaql@...> wrote: You're the second person to mention problems with the "8" key. I haven't seen it myself, and from the schematic, can't imagine what could be wrong that only affects the "8" and not the other keys in the same row.
The only thing that's changed recently is that the 15Kx4 SIP was changed to 18Kx4 (because the 15K was out of stock). It works the same on my Z80MC, but maybe some 74LS145's have excessive off-state leakage that 18k won't pull up? An easy test would be to try adding a resistor in parallel with the 18K (like 22K) to see if that helps?
Lee
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
But it *does* require attention to detail! -- Lee Hart
--
Lee A. Hart
-----Original Message-----
From: <[email protected]>
Sent: Mar 23, 2025 8:11 PM
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Z80MC] Micro BASIC Manual
It's funny you mention a problem with the #8 button. I have a similar problem with mine. Instead of getting 8, I get 9.
Spent a bunch of hours troubleshooting. Never figured it out.
Sometimes it will produce an 8.
If I do E 2888, I get 2899.
If I do E 7888, I get 7899.
And so on.
Maybe we should start a new thread...
Mitch
|
Hi Lee,? I will try your suggestion. I have the front panel on my breadboard now with your suggestions for testing. Have a safe trip, when you are back we can reconnect for troubleshooting. Thanks,
You're the second person to mention problems with the "8" key. I haven't seen it myself, and from the schematic, can't imagine what could be wrong that only affects the "8" and not the other keys in the same row.
The only thing that's changed recently is that the 15Kx4 SIP was changed to 18Kx4 (because the 15K was out of stock). It works the same on my Z80MC, but maybe some 74LS145's have excessive off-state leakage that 18k won't pull up? An easy test would be to try adding a resistor in parallel with the 18K (like 22K) to see if that helps?
Lee
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
But it *does* require attention to detail! -- Lee Hart
--
Lee A. Hart
-----Original Message-----
From: <[email protected]>
Sent: Mar 23, 2025 8:11 PM
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Z80MC] Micro BASIC Manual
It's funny you mention a problem with the #8 button. I have a similar problem with mine. Instead of getting 8, I get 9.
Spent a bunch of hours troubleshooting. Never figured it out.
Sometimes it will produce an 8.
If I do E 2888, I get 2899.
If I do E 7888, I get 7899.
And so on.
Maybe we should start a new thread...
Mitch
|
You're the second person to mention problems with the "8" key. I haven't seen it myself, and from the schematic, can't imagine what could be wrong that only affects the "8" and not the other keys in the same row.
The only thing that's changed recently is that the 15Kx4 SIP was changed to 18Kx4 (because the 15K was out of stock). It works the same on my Z80MC, but maybe some 74LS145's have excessive off-state leakage that 18k won't pull up? An easy test would be to try adding a resistor in parallel with the 18K (like 22K) to see if that helps?
Lee
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
But it *does* require attention to detail! -- Lee Hart
--
Lee A. Hart
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Show quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: < [email protected]> Sent: Mar 23, 2025 8:11 PM To: < [email protected]> Subject: Re: [Z80MC] Micro BASIC Manual It's funny you mention a problem with the #8 button. I have a similar problem with mine. Instead of getting 8, I get 9. Spent a bunch of hours troubleshooting. Never figured it out. Sometimes it will produce an 8. If I do E 2888, I get 2899. If I do E 7888, I get 7899. And so on. Maybe we should start a new thread... Mitch
|
Re: using SDCC and stdio to Z80MC w/ CP/M 2.2....
I never knew of Z88DK; I'll have to try it out!
|
Re: using SDCC and stdio to Z80MC w/ CP/M 2.2....
For native CP/M I have a shopping list of compliers to
compare to.? For raw code development speed and
ease BDS-C is my goto.? For editors I have VEDIT and as
screen oriented editor its very good with real terminals
(most PC terminal emulators fail hard for keyboards
that do not? match real terminals).
?
Haven't played with Z88DK, just no reason to have a SmallC
on pc when I have it on native Z80.? So I skipped it.? Actually
I have two versions one for 8080/8085 and the Z80 with
peephole optization and matching libraries for both.
?
Generally C is nice with complex data structures and
other projects where some level of portability is nice.
However C on z80 has a tendancy to eat ram.
?
I can think in 8085/z80, habit and years of doing it.? ?
That and I have a nearly 5 decades of code including
a macro library for both that is optimized.? Both take
advantage of undocumented instructions that are
different for 8085 and z80.? The 10 "hidden"
instructions that all 8085 have and actually can
improve code.? For Z80 there are special cases
where the undocumented by Zilog but documented
by everyone else that makes z80s do help code
size and speed.
?
That is the difference between CP/M systems which
have resources memory, io, and storage.? Also CP/M
had basic tools supplied so it had a useful starting point.
That and I've had hard disks on CP/M since mid 1980
so the archive is larger never mind the WC-CDROM
for shear volume.??
?
On one of my Kaypros has Handyman a secondary rom
that piggybacked the z80 and added handy stuff like a
calculator, note pad editor, and calendar plus other items.
IT also operated independant of CP/M and could copy
results to CP/m applications.
?
Years back I used a flavor of Tiny basic married to the CCP
to make a scripting command line.? I was spoiled by
VAX/VMS DCL (Digital Command Line) which was a
interpreted language in itself? with explicit and implied
scripts and very powerfull.? ?This is back early 80s where
I was trying to get big iron features on a Z80 CP/M machine
and largely succeeding.? Then again I had PDP-8 and PDP11
hardware and OSs to incite and inspire.
?
As a to a calc for CP/M most assumed VT52/vt100/vt220?
all having keypad.? Many other terminals did as well as
most emulated Vt100.
?
" I wish I had now what I was used to then."
?
Allison
|
Re: using SDCC and stdio to Z80MC w/ CP/M 2.2....
Thanks for looking into it and sharing back! ?Your experience mirrors mine; I find the SDCC code generation to be a bit fluffy. SDCC is a labor of love of its authors, so I suspect that advancements in optimisations are catch-as-catch-come.
?
My reflection on this mini-project is that SDCC can be a project accelerator if you want to use modern C authoring on a desktop dev env and are not picky about code size. If you've got the flash/ram, might as well use it. My acid test was compiling an HP15C emulator within this toolchain. This resulted in a program that fit in the 32 KiB banked region and there was plenty of RAM for variables in the non-banked region. Could it be smaller? Doubles. Could it be faster? Surely. Did it take months to implement? No, because I already had the code on-hand, so I just had to concoct build scripts and implement main() to start the emulator.
?
(Incidentally I did not complete this PoC implementation because I realized much to my chagrin that calculators presume the presence of a button matrix, so... whoops! I did implement the screen rendering of the keyboard and LCD using VT100 codes. This was slow even at 115kbps. The stdio fprintf() layer was about half as fast as CP/M BIOS calls, but really still too slow even then to be pretty to look at. Since this was just a PoC for code size and execution speed, I didn't bother investing in completing key mapping, or thinking laterally, making a parser for a CLI version.)
?
I chasing other wild geese just now, though I still might come back to this as even just now a buddy is wanting to re-purpose some vintage z80-based spectroscope with alternative firmware. (Indeed, the genesis of this activity is because of some folks wanting to reverse-engineer an esoteric language CAI machine called the 'Cefucom'. I could glean a lot from disassembling the rom dump but eventually one has to buzz out the wires to know what PIO-A-bit-7 is electrically connected to, and whether port 20h selects U24 or U25. My suggestion was a custom firmware that tweaks the lines in a predictable way such that you can observe the chip select logic with a multimeter rather than reverse engineering all the intermediary SSI decode. So it was handy to be able to crank that out quickly irrespective of generated code quality.)
?
Thanks so much, Allison, for your insights and also your tales from the trenches of how things were. And are they materially different now? Or just more and faster? Well, I guess quantum computing seems different, or is that just the re-imagining of analog computers?
?
73, AG5TH, dave
|
Strange behavior of #8 button
I have the Z80MC with all 3 cards. Built this back in 2022.
It gets power from the USB cable when I connect it to my computer.
Never tried to power it with a bench supply.
When I press the #8 button, sometimes I get an 8 and sometimes a 9.
Spent a bunch of hours troubleshooting. Never figured it out.
I've been over every connection with a microscope.
It seems to have a pattern but I don't know how to troubleshoot this.
Examples:
If I do E 2888, I get 2899.
If I do E 7888, I get 7899.
Now today, I powered it up and it's working perfectly. But I'm sure that's only because I'm writing this message.
I've seen this behavior as well. It will work fine for a while. That tells me it's likely not a problem with the button itself. It would also tell me it's not a short somewhere.
It functions perfectly when I connect with TeraTerm so it's not a huge deal and I just live with it.
|
Re: using SDCC and stdio to Z80MC w/ CP/M 2.2....
My experience with SDCC is a bit dated but I know it got a LOT better with Z88DK. There's a lot of optimization work by a whole lot of people and solid C libraries that work out of the box.
?
At the time I was comparing it to my home brew compiler on the 1802 but i was quite impressed with SDCC/Z88DK.
|
Mitch,
Can you please tell me if you are using all 3 boards? or just the Front panel with the Z80? Also, how are you powering your Z80mc???
FYI, I'm using all 3 boards and powered from a 5V, 5A bench supply.
Josh
On Sunday, March 23, 2025 at 09:11:04 p.m. EDT, Mitch Smith via groups.io <kb3gkc@...> wrote:
It's funny you mention a problem with the #8 button. I have a similar problem with mine. Instead of getting 8, I get 9.
Spent a bunch of hours troubleshooting. Never figured it out.
Sometimes it will produce an 8.
If I do E 2888, I get 2899.
If I do E 7888, I get 7899.
And so on.
Maybe we should start a new thread...
Mitch
|
Strange, I do not see that issue either.
?
I'd suspect a button installed wrong or a row colum short.
?
Allison
|
Re: using SDCC and stdio to Z80MC w/ CP/M 2.2....
When though full install of the SDCC on my main linux machine.
Reason was to find out in the flesh if it was batter than native...
?
The answer is, not really.? While its faster, the code pushed out
is not?better in any way on z80.? I expecteding the code is on a
PC based compiler?with lots of memory and processor available
it would be somewhat optimizing.? It does not.
?
While faster than running on 4mhz z80 over all between file
movement between PC and the real thing there was no gain.
Its fine if you live in the world of sims I'd expect.? ?It would
be handy for those building their first z80 or any of the
other supported machines and need "first code".
?
Useful experiment and new tools but better?? I can't say yes.
?
Allison
|
What a strange problem.? Not happening on my system.? I tried 2888 and 7888 10 times and got the right number every time.
On Sunday, March 23, 2025 at 09:11:04 p.m. EDT, Mitch Smith via groups.io <kb3gkc@...> wrote:
It's funny you mention a problem with the #8 button. I have a similar problem with mine. Instead of getting 8, I get 9.
Spent a bunch of hours troubleshooting. Never figured it out.
Sometimes it will produce an 8.
If I do E 2888, I get 2899.
If I do E 7888, I get 7899.
And so on.
Maybe we should start a new thread...
Mitch
|
It's funny you mention a problem with the #8 button. I have a similar problem with mine. Instead of getting 8, I get 9.
Spent a bunch of hours troubleshooting. Never figured it out.
Sometimes it will produce an 8.
If I do E 2888, I get 2899.
If I do E 7888, I get 7899.
And so on.
Maybe we should start a new thread...
Mitch
|
Thank you Allison for the detailed and enlightening information, appreciated.
I ran into some problems assembling my Z80MC. Everything was assembled, including the z80 SIO, verified several times and finally powered up. Everything seemed to be working fine except no response from button 8. To make long story short, while troubleshooting the problem (into third straight day) managed to feed 9V Vcc into Vin causing even more problems while button 8 issue remained unresolved.? At the moment, I am trying to get another kit set to get back into exploring the Z80 MC with Micro Basic. Unfortunate and expensive set back…. At least I will have more time to read.
Cheers, Kerem
On Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 9:25?AM ajparent1/kb1gmx via <kb1gmx= [email protected]> wrote: [Edited Message Follows]
Original Dunfield's Micro-BASIC program used a monitor also from
David Dunfield.? His site is still up but the URL is different.
Note that there are two versions of that basic one in .ASM (8080/z80)
and another in Dunfield's Micro-C (close to K&R C).? I have original
sources for both.
?
Regarding "other" BASICs that can run on Z80 based systems there are many.
The MSBASIC(microsoft) is well known, Also NABU basic , and at least three
Tiny basics and LLL (larwence livermore labs) BASIC... I"d also add Z8TBASIC?
as well.? All of those are public domain now or free for non commercial use.?
All of them can be ported to?the Z80 MC.
?
Due to the fact that Z80 can run code from prior 8080 and 8085 makes for?
large amount of program sources.? Most the port will be trivial only allowing
for what IO may be needed.
?
Other items of interest for 8080/8085/z80 system would be:
-ALPS Dunfield's Assembly Language Programming System? An editor, assembler, debugger.
? I have added this and micro-bsic to the files area.
?
-Softpack-1 Part of a large collection of software including resident editor and assembler
and other tools from?Processor Technology for the SOL system.? This also includes a BASIC.
?
Allison
|
Original Dunfield's Micro-BASIC program used a monitor also from
David Dunfield.? His site is still up but the URL is different.
Note that there are two versions of that basic one in .ASM (8080/z80)
and another in Dunfield's Micro-C (close to K&R C).? I have original
sources for both.
?
Regarding "other" BASICs that can run on Z80 based systems there are many.
The MSBASIC(microsoft) is well known, Also NABU basic , and at least three
Tiny basics and LLL (larwence livermore labs) BASIC... I"d also add Z8TBASIC?
as well.? All of those are public domain now or free for non commercial use.?
All of them can be ported to?the Z80 MC.
?
Due to the fact that Z80 can run code from prior 8080 and 8085 makes for?
large amount of program sources.? Most the port will be trivial only allowing
for what IO may be needed.
?
Other items of interest for 8080/8085/z80 system would be:
-ALPS Dunfield's Assembly Language Programming System? An editor, assembler, debugger.
? I have added this and micro-bsic to the files area.
?
-Softpack-1 Part of a large collection of software including resident editor and assembler
and other tools from?Processor Technology for the SOL system.? This also includes a BASIC.
?
Allison
|
Here's his unmodified assembler code for Micro Basic.? You should read his comments, he's very funny.
Also, here's the modified code with the extra INP and OUT commands added.
On Sunday, March 16, 2025 at 09:45:28 p.m. EDT, Kerem Kapkin via groups.io <kkapkin@...> wrote:
Hi Josh, Unfortunately my Z80MC Front Panel had an issue with an IC, so currently it is waiting for a part. In the meantime I am somewhat familiar with Micro Professor MPF-1 Tiny Basic. The system has a coder ROM. Sounds like for Z80MC, I need a separate coder to convert instructions before inputting. Some reason all the links to Dave’s material giving me an unavailable URL error as if the pages have been deleted. If you can point me to Dave’s Micro Basic coder, I would?appreciate it. Regards, Kerem
On Sun, Mar 16, 2025 at 6:31?PM joshbensadon via <joshbensadon= [email protected]> wrote:
Kerem,
I should tell you, I added 2 instructions to Micro Basic.? OUT and INP.? OUT pp,vv? works to output byte vv to port pp. And INP(pp) is a function that returns they byte at input port pp.
The assembler code for Micro Basic is available and was very easy to modify to add these instructions.? Dave Dunfield is a very well organized coder.
Cheers, Josh
On Sunday, March 16, 2025 at 02:10:51 p.m. EDT, Kerem Kapkin via <kkapkin= [email protected]> wrote:
Hello Josh,
Thank you very much. That’s what I was looking for. Excellent.
Regards, Kerem On Sun, Mar 16, 2025 at 10:24?AM joshbensadon via <joshbensadon= [email protected]> wrote:
Hi Kerem,
Hmm, I wonder what happened to the website?
Here's the MBasic Manual I downloaded.
Cheers, Josh Bensadon
On Saturday, March 15, 2025 at 06:29:19 p.m. EDT, Kerem Kapkin via <kkapkin= [email protected]> wrote:
Hello,
I am new to the Z80MC, just completed building one and learning about the operation. However none of the links to Dave Dunfield's Micro BASIC Manual is working. If you have a new link or if you can share the pdf file of the manual I would appreciate it.
Best Regards,
Kerem
|
Hi Josh, Unfortunately my Z80MC Front Panel had an issue with an IC, so currently it is waiting for a part. In the meantime I am somewhat familiar with Micro Professor MPF-1 Tiny Basic. The system has a coder ROM. Sounds like for Z80MC, I need a separate coder to convert instructions before inputting. Some reason all the links to Dave’s material giving me an unavailable URL error as if the pages have been deleted. If you can point me to Dave’s Micro Basic coder, I would?appreciate it. Regards, Kerem
On Sun, Mar 16, 2025 at 6:31?PM joshbensadon via <joshbensadon= [email protected]> wrote:
Kerem,
I should tell you, I added 2 instructions to Micro Basic.? OUT and INP.? OUT pp,vv? works to output byte vv to port pp. And INP(pp) is a function that returns they byte at input port pp.
The assembler code for Micro Basic is available and was very easy to modify to add these instructions.? Dave Dunfield is a very well organized coder.
Cheers, Josh
On Sunday, March 16, 2025 at 02:10:51 p.m. EDT, Kerem Kapkin via <kkapkin= [email protected]> wrote:
Hello Josh,
Thank you very much. That’s what I was looking for. Excellent.
Regards, Kerem On Sun, Mar 16, 2025 at 10:24?AM joshbensadon via <joshbensadon= [email protected]> wrote:
Hi Kerem,
Hmm, I wonder what happened to the website?
Here's the MBasic Manual I downloaded.
Cheers, Josh Bensadon
On Saturday, March 15, 2025 at 06:29:19 p.m. EDT, Kerem Kapkin via <kkapkin= [email protected]> wrote:
Hello,
I am new to the Z80MC, just completed building one and learning about the operation. However none of the links to Dave Dunfield's Micro BASIC Manual is working. If you have a new link or if you can share the pdf file of the manual I would appreciate it.
Best Regards,
Kerem
|
Kerem,
I should tell you, I added 2 instructions to Micro Basic.? OUT and INP.? OUT pp,vv? works to output byte vv to port pp. And INP(pp) is a function that returns they byte at input port pp.
The assembler code for Micro Basic is available and was very easy to modify to add these instructions.? Dave Dunfield is a very well organized coder.
Cheers, Josh
On Sunday, March 16, 2025 at 02:10:51 p.m. EDT, Kerem Kapkin via groups.io <kkapkin@...> wrote:
Hello Josh,
Thank you very much. That’s what I was looking for. Excellent.
Regards, Kerem
On Sun, Mar 16, 2025 at 10:24?AM joshbensadon via <joshbensadon= [email protected]> wrote:
Hi Kerem,
Hmm, I wonder what happened to the website?
Here's the MBasic Manual I downloaded.
Cheers, Josh Bensadon
On Saturday, March 15, 2025 at 06:29:19 p.m. EDT, Kerem Kapkin via <kkapkin= [email protected]> wrote:
Hello,
I am new to the Z80MC, just completed building one and learning about the operation. However none of the links to Dave Dunfield's Micro BASIC Manual is working. If you have a new link or if you can share the pdf file of the manual I would appreciate it.
Best Regards,
Kerem
|
Hello Josh,
Thank you very much. That’s what I was looking for. Excellent.
Regards, Kerem
On Sun, Mar 16, 2025 at 10:24?AM joshbensadon via <joshbensadon= [email protected]> wrote:
Hi Kerem,
Hmm, I wonder what happened to the website?
Here's the MBasic Manual I downloaded.
Cheers, Josh Bensadon
On Saturday, March 15, 2025 at 06:29:19 p.m. EDT, Kerem Kapkin via <kkapkin= [email protected]> wrote:
Hello,
I am new to the Z80MC, just completed building one and learning about the operation. However none of the links to Dave Dunfield's Micro BASIC Manual is working. If you have a new link or if you can share the pdf file of the manual I would appreciate it.
Best Regards,
Kerem
|
Hi Kerem,
Hmm, I wonder what happened to the website?
Here's the MBasic Manual I downloaded.
Cheers, Josh Bensadon
On Saturday, March 15, 2025 at 06:29:19 p.m. EDT, Kerem Kapkin via groups.io <kkapkin@...> wrote:
Hello,
I am new to the Z80MC, just completed building one and learning about the operation. However none of the links to Dave Dunfield's Micro BASIC Manual is working. If you have a new link or if you can share the pdf file of the manual I would appreciate it.
Best Regards,
Kerem
|
Kerem Kapkin
Lee Hart
dave