On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 02:08 PM, saturn5tony wrote:

When I connected it up years later tho, (that asr33 was owned by my college), to a KIM-1 with its built in teletype drivers I never felt that. Go figure. I did know tho, that the processor It was talking too, was going to change the world.

To those that may not remember this, the KIM-1 was based on the 6502 in the early 70's. What is even more ironic, is that the Apple II that came after, another 6502 machine (one of my favs) was so much more sold to businesses because of the Microsoft Softcard. This really kept the Apple II going into the 80's. So to be honest to this group, the truth and really the creation of what Zilog produced, the Z80, which is in the Softcard, made the 6502 machine so popular. Ironic as this seems even more, these two processors changed the world, really. If you look at the big three in the 70's (in 1977), these two processors was apart of them all as well. What a great time.



So 6502 - 6502 - Z80 ... or.... 6502 - Z80 - Z80? lol

-Tony

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 04:33 PM, saturn5tony wrote:

The mechanics in the asr was amazing as well! I even remember some stories about the guy that designed it too. To me when I hear that sound, I still think of that power.

Yanno, this is true about that power. Not from the teletype tho. It was noisy but it had that particular kind of sound. To me in the early 70's into my teen years, when I heard that connected up to a nearby college via a special modem, I knew it was a computer that the printer was connected too, but that sound gave me the impression of the power of that far away computer, not the asr33.

If I here it it now, I know something very advanced is talking to it.

When I connected it up years later tho, (that asr33 was owned by my college), to a KIM-1 with its built in teletype drivers I never felt that. Go figure. I did know tho, that the processor It was talking too, was going to change the world.

On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 01:54 PM, Lee Hart wrote:

A 2-board stack easily fits in the Altoids tin.

Hi Lee,
Oh yea I was lucky, I made that mistake with the sio, so a bit higher, but with the CPU and the keypad (because like Josh with the sio in the middle) I can fit the 2 board stack (cpu/keys) in the tin. Its not really important with the sio tho I think. Having real fun with this design. Thank you guys so much for this very unique design.

Thanks, guys. It's a challenge to design things small; but it also makes it more interesting.:-)

Tony used "low" height IC sockets (-001000). The ones I supply with the kits are "ultra-low" height (-003000). With them (and by removing the plastic body from the headers) you can get it even lower profile. A 2-board stack easily fits in the Altoids tin.

开云体育

On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 04:18 PM, joshbensadon wrote:

PS.? You picked some very nice low profile sockets!

Hi Josh!
Those sockets are great. Yea when I made the Keyboard and the CPU I got them correct, but when I reordered the sockets for the SIO I messed up and got the 01000 and the 03000 wrong from Mouser. I was not too upset because its .1 inch higher and I am going to be happy with that.

Not really gonna put it into the Altoids tin. The sio kindof makes that too high as well. I used to repair ASR33 teletypes back in the day, and have worked with a Linotype a small bit when I was in that industry. Yes I know how cool that is. The mechanics in the asr was amazing as well! I even remember some stories about the guy that designed it too. To me when I hear that sound, I still think of that power.

You have to admit this. The front and back view of the Z80MC looks just so cool!

On Sun, Jun 20, 2021 at 07:14 AM, joshbensadon wrote:

I would guess that if ever CP/M could run on a VAX, it would be an emulation.??

Yea I bet your right on that Josh. Man remembering those days was always so cool. We were all on the ground floor of something we new would change the world. I didnt spend that much time on the Vax, was more of a hardware guy at that time but did use it a bit for our development. I do remember how cool the VT100 was and always remember that screen. Cpm or the one that was on the Imsai was so cool as well. When I see it on my Z80 here (or on my AppleII soft-card) it just reminds me of those days.

BTW, love the work you did on the SD card. So having fun with this machine now. Thank you for putting those classics on the B and C drives no less cpm as well.

On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 05:23 PM, saturn5tony wrote:

Just got the SD card working today, got C/PM running fine and even kicked up some Zork1 on the second 8-inch (virtual, lolol) drive. Man, its like playing around on the Vax I had back in the 70's hehe!!

Well I have to correct myself again here, lol (man it sucks getting old). I had access to a IMSAI 8080 machine back in 77 and then did some work on a VAX 11/780 machine in late 78. The vax was VMS of course and the Imsai had an s100 Z80 processor board where I did some very brief C/PM on it when I was learning about micro's. The vax (I dont think) ever had C/PM on it unless it was virtual or a special board as well. IDK, I was new to vms as well. Just saying, lol

On Fri, Jun 18, 2021 at 04:28 PM, Lee Hart wrote:

It is possible to get flux in a bad place, like right on the contact area of a connector. But I generally clean my boards with isopropyl alcohol.

Hi Lee,
No problem now. Yes Ive got the classic sn63/37 as well, have been doing this a long time like you. This is one of the orders from mouser I have found that is the problem. I had two shipments of those molex connectors. I looked at my order from them and did a further investigation and I bought about 20 of those molex's 2101's for the few of your kits that I am doing. 6 of these I got from them at the beginning of the year and it had a funny 6 placement holder package, like what you would get from a dealer. All the rest now recently for the 1802 MC I got from mouser in individual bags.

They all look the same until you look close. Its funny because the 6 pack does look odd with its lower tinning but the rest look shiny. Most of those 6 went into the Z80 board and were hard to solder too. Even tho they are soldered in I remembered what they looked like. Thats why I kept using the kester flux on them and made it worse. The rest (now for your MC) solder just fine. Just touch the edge and they wick up just great. LOL!

Maybe it was a re-order that mouser had for them and I was in between for some reason, with the old batch and now the new. Idk.

It wasn't that bad I got it cleared up fast when I figured out what was going on. There clean now and seem to work great on the Z80.? They are really nice and what a great Idea design wise. Cool stuff here Lee. Love the architecture you designed for this, I love it. Just got the SD card working today, got C/PM running fine and even kicked up some Zork1 on the second 8-inch (virtual, lolol) drive. Man, its like playing around on the Vax I had back in the 70's hehe!! Thanks so much for your replies buddy.

saturn5tony via groups.io wrote:

Hi Lee,
Thank you so much for your reply and kind words. It was a real rookie mistake Lee. Not only new to this connector but new to the type of flux I got from ebay a few months ago too. It was a fresh batch of NO-clean flux I just got. I should have realized it being so thick.

These molex connectors are the ones you recommended (the 10-pin Molex
22-18-2101) that I got from Mouser. They must have had them on the shelf
for a long time, because when I was soldering them they had a real
problem sticking to the solder.

That's really odd. First, because Mouser usually sell pretty new stock. Second, I've never run into a problem soldering them, even with really old ones out of my "gold mine" (i.e. junk box).

What kind of solder did you use? I use good old Kester 63/37 tin/lead with rosin flux. I never have to use any separate flux, unless I'm trying to solder something really unusual.

It is possible to get flux in a bad place, like right on the contact area of a connector. But I generally clean my boards with isopropyl alcohol.

I know there are no-wash and water-washable fluxes; but I generally don't use them. They don't seem to work as well for me. Note that there isn't anything on the Membership Cards that you can't water-wash. I've even put boards in the dishwasher! :-) Just be sure to dry them off really good before use. I dunk them in isopropyl alcohol after any spraying or immersion in water to get out every trace of moisture.

Lee

--
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we
created them. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 09:01 PM, Lee Hart wrote:

Congratulations, Tony!

Hi Lee,
Thank you so much for your reply and kind words. It was a real rookie mistake Lee. Not only new to this connector but new to the type of flux I got from ebay a few months ago too. It was a fresh batch of NO-clean flux I just got. I should have realized it being so thick. These molex connectors are the ones you recommended (the 10-pin Molex 22-18-2101) that I got from Mouser. They must have had them on the shelf for a long time, because when I was soldering them they had a real problem sticking to the solder. From the top I tried a swipe of Noclean Kester flux and I am sure they dripped down into the connector during the somewhat long solder application for each pin. The tin plated pins must have gotten old. Never had this issue with really any other type I have used like this but who knows, Ill be care full next time, I still have to build the 1802 MC too.

After your reply today I went to the lab and probably used an 1/8th can of defluxer to clean the inards..again. Yup as you can see below I have a properly seated Z80MC! Man this is cool. I need to really purchase a nice ultra-sonic cleaner or something someday. One thing is for sure, Ill never have a flux buildup in these boards eventually. haha!



I love the work that went into this, both the hardware and software. Just awesome!

-Tony (aka Captain Dunsel)

saturn5tony via groups.io wrote:

OK Completed the SIO board today! Like the above comment, this is really a great Z80 machine. Here is the finished board as well as the 1st listing entering into C/PM enclosed. So cool to see that classic C/PM operating system and MBasic as well.
Still have this issue tho with not only having to slide the Top keypad board half way onto the CPU board, I even have to slide the SIO half way as well. idk whats happening because it works fine with all functions but if they are "squeezed" together for a tight fit, no led display or even now sio access is possible. I have to look into this more but halfway works for the time being and I am having fun. Even checked out the SD card and Xmodems stuff and everything works great!

Congratulations, Tony! Your build is all the more impressive because you just got the bare boards, and had to source everything else yourself.

On the connector intermittents: What kind of connectors did you use? I supply Molex KK with gold plated pins. They have been pretty reliable, even with bent or mis-aligned pins and other problems.

Lee

--
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we
created them. -- Albert Einstein
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.

On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 04:26 PM, saturn5tony wrote:

This is really an awesome machine.

OK Completed the SIO board today! Like the above comment, this is really a great Z80 machine. Here is the finished board as well as the 1st listing entering into C/PM enclosed. So cool to see that classic C/PM operating system and MBasic as well.



Still have this issue tho with not only having to slide the Top keypad board half way onto the CPU board, I even have to slide the SIO half way as well. idk whats happening because it works fine with all functions but if they are "squeezed" together for a tight fit, no led display or even now sio access is possible. I have to look into this more but halfway works for the time being and I am having fun. Even checked out the SD card and Xmodems stuff and everything works great!

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 05:21 PM, saturn5tony wrote:

Here is the 1st boot of just the Z80MC CPU board!? yippee!

Now here is the CPU and the Font panel display keypad system. Woot #2!!

Just finished it today. Had a bit of issues with glitching at 1st even though I did replace the 74LS245 with the 74HC245 I managed to find yesterday. I dont think it was necessary because there seemed to be an issue with the Molex connectors needing a bit more soldering. Even though I used the great Kester 186 flux the plating on the connectors really had a hard time making a good connection with the external leads and the pcb traces. Redid it and I was finally able to slide the top board down onto the CPU board. It only worked halfway so I new it was the molex's. Even put a real nice tiny piezo buzzer from CUI for about a buck or so. Not quite as loud as the flat ones but easier to mount and has a good sound. I did have to replace a key on keyboard tho as well. Glad I bought a few extra too.



Enclosed is a couple side views.

I will say I have been banging around with the software for a few hours now and man this looks great! I love the single-step controls and memory stuff on the hexkey pad and the access to data is just really cool. Both the terminal mode and keypad access are just really nice! I cant wait to finish the SIO board now. This is really an awesome machine.

-Tony

On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 09:23 AM, joshbensadon wrote:

Heathkit used a similar model and it was successful.?

I think thats why I love all the stuff Lee (and you) have done here. When I was 13 I got some kits from Heathkit (and Eico) and I think that was so wonderful to do and explore. I knew crap about electronics back then and why something did what it did. Those kits gave me that knowledge years before I went to college. When heathkit went downhill so did a piece of me. I wish I could have bought more of them.

You guys have the same approach here (and Lee mentions that a bit too in these topics) and I think not only for me but beginners will now know how that feels. The Z80MC and 1802MC are awesome.
-Tony

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 05:51 PM, joshbensadon wrote:

Tony,? looking good!

Thanks Josh,
Yea it was the Additional Operating details with ZMCv15 ROM you and Lee wrote that really helped alot. I saw how you guys set it up to test only the Z80 card by itself that got it working so fast. I knew I had a problem with that card at the 1st point looking at it with my scope. Yup Lee said an HC368 so yup it had to be one. No issue there at all. My HC stock is very low being I came from those days with LS's and such in my Lab, lol

Great Docs from both of you. Man this is a lot of fun.