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Re: A modern BBS
Bill,
There is no known to me TELNET for Z80, those BBS ran either DOS or a flavor of unix like software [Netware, Venix, Minix] on 8088 or later than 1986ish? maybe 286 or 386 hardware. Telnet to a Rpi? to a serial line to the CP/M engine (or CP/M emulator on Rpi) would be doable. I have a copy f Dave Dunfileds Myhorizon that runs under dosemu on my linux machine that is accessible via telnet.? So its very "doable". Allison |
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Re: A modern BBS
>>>It would be straightforward to bring up a BBS on a Z80 like this with a standard phone modem. But that requires a "land line". I doubt that many people would want to call it -- especially since us vintage computer fans are spread so far and wide that it would be a long distance call.<<<
A direct solution is instead of POTS (old skool term for the basic phone service) compatible modem at the end of a serial line use one of the serial connected Ethernet or Wifi modems. Or use a Rpi[0,1,2,3,4) or similar as a bridge from modern networks to serial line to CP/M machine. Allison |
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Re: A modern BBS
The “modem emulator” programs, like the link I sent the other day, will basically traffic serial over Ethernet using a PC, sort of like the all-in-one solutions from Olimex and Wiznet (??) which are board-level products.
I have a test setup in the shop so I hope to play around with this a bit. I have a PC with a Digi-PCI 8-port serial board, some modems, an analog telephone switch and BBS software (SynchroNET, which I think also does TCP) running on XP. I’ve seen a Z80 BBS running within an emulator, but of course that’s not real hardware. This is an interesting listing of Citadel versions: Rich -- Rich Cini ?On 8/21/20, 11:39 AM, "Lee Hart" <[email protected] on behalf of leeahart@...> wrote: bill rowe wrote: > I can't help thinking telnet is a good answer to this. it gives you a > tty interface over the internet with simple hardware and can be run on > small systems. I know there are telnet bbs's - i just don't know if > they run on z80's. I've never run across telnet. I'll have to look it up and see what it is! > even a chat program would be a fun start. If it's capable of functioning as a serial link between two computers, I would think it could work with any of the BBS software that worked with modems. We probably don't really need a vintage machine on the server end; that could be a PC or something modern with mass storage. But the client end would need Z80 CP/M software. It still leaves me uncertain of how a Z80 connects to the web with telnet. Hardware-wise, I assume it still needs to talk to an ethernet connection on your router? Lee -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com |
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Re: A modern BBS
bill rowe wrote:
I can't help thinking telnet is a good answer to this. it gives you aI've never run across telnet. I'll have to look it up and see what it is! even a chat program would be a fun start.If it's capable of functioning as a serial link between two computers, I would think it could work with any of the BBS software that worked with modems. We probably don't really need a vintage machine on the server end; that could be a PC or something modern with mass storage. But the client end would need Z80 CP/M software. It still leaves me uncertain of how a Z80 connects to the web with telnet. Hardware-wise, I assume it still needs to talk to an ethernet connection on your router? Lee -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com |
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Re: A modern BBS
开云体育
>It
would be straightforward to bring up a BBS on a Z80 like this with a
>standard phone modem. But that requires a "land line". I doubt that many >people would want to call it -- especially since us vintage computer >fans are spread so far and wide that it would be a long distance call. I can't help thinking telnet is a good answer to this.? it gives you a tty interface over the internet with simple hardware and can be run on small systems.? I know there are telnet bbs's - i just don't know if they run on z80's.
even a chat program would be a fun start.
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Lee Hart <leeahart@...>
Sent: August 21, 2020 12:19 AM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Z80MC] A modern BBS ?
> The Walnut Creek CD has a few of the BBS system content and the system
> software. It would be straightforward to bring up a BBS on a Z80 like this with a standard phone modem. But that requires a "land line". I doubt that many people would want to call it -- especially since us vintage computer fans are spread so far and wide that it would be a long distance call. Lee Hart |
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Re: A modern BBS
ajparent1/kb1gmx wrote:
A cpm based BBS was basically the CCP with undesired commands removed...I once got a used S-100 computer (made by SD Sales around 1980) that worked like that. It ran MP/M, and had a 4 MHz Z80 as its "master" CPU, 256k of banked RAM, a Corvus hard drive, and an "I/O-8" card with eight Z80-SIO serial ports. The computer was used for some kind of BBS-like setup for a company. It had 8 modems on the serial ports, so salesmen could dial in to check stock, place orders, etc. The I/O-8 card had its own Z80 and RAM, which created FIFOs for all the channels, which the main CPU would service. It would have been interesting to see it work. But I only got the computer itself, without the modems or hard drive. I converted it to use floppies and ran regular CP/M on it. The Walnut Creek CD has a few of the BBS system content and the systemIt would be straightforward to bring up a BBS on a Z80 like this with a standard phone modem. But that requires a "land line". I doubt that many people would want to call it -- especially since us vintage computer fans are spread so far and wide that it would be a long distance call. Lee Hart -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com |
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Re: A modern BBS
Serial Ethernet is not CPnet.? ?Nor was it Ethernet as we know it since about
1987 or later. However I've worked with networking at the lower speed serial level? with collision detect and its fairly simple hardware but lots of software most of that software are the media and phyical and logical levels. At its peak I ahd three system and a print server linked using a 38Kbaud net. Systems could boot (one was diskless), copy, print (spool a file to the printerver) and any other task that connectivity makes possible.? Mail was doable but at the time I didn't have a arpanet bridge so no one to send it to.? Later it had a? mod to the print sever that would dial up (at 1200 baud) and copy a message to a BBS for forwarding or to Compuserve (about 1$ to sens a message all connect time). Networking as we know it flat out didn't exist until the mid 80s and even then it was mostly inter-company.? DEC had the largest network in 1983, almost 150 nodes (basically a computer system) with anywhere from a few to several hundred users.? By 1990, then were pushing the address space (64 major zones and 1024 addresses in each as in 57.106 my system a microVAX-II called ViDSYS::) total users about 120,000 likely more and 631,023 addressed nodes. Generally networking changed a lot from late 70s to 1990 as did networking speeds.? ?Links back 1983 could easily be a 1200baud modem (using DDCMP protocal) to a 19200 baud synchronous modem to the next building. and protocals were DECnet phase II (manual routing )? and III (automatic routing). Most of all this was covers back in the 90s on alt.sys.cpm and comp.sys.cpm (yes the old bitnet days).? ? It never advanced much from then as everyone tried to apply PC biased networking models or TCIP when UUCP was likely a better fit.?? Allison |
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Re: A modern BBS
Bill,
Yes and no.? CP/M (and multiprocessing cousin MPM) are operating systems. As such you can load a program and save a program do a directory listing. Things like ERA (erase files) would not be desired on a BBS? but reassembling? the CCP (sources exist) wold allow for removing or adding the needed functions. What makes CP/M special is its BIOS (hardware independence), BDOS (the basic Io and filesystem) and the CP (console command processor, user interface).? Because of that modularity its fairly easy to load a BBS program to replace the general utility command line processor (CCP). In many ways? PC DOS is very much like CP/M to the user at the keyboard. messaging is possible as all it is is upload a text or edit a text on the system with all the forwarding and return information and storing it to a users message files (database?). Or a program can be loaded to provide BBS (login, directory, upload, and download) would be fairly trivial.? BYE is one that provides some of that. Allison |
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Re: A modern BBS
开云体育
maybe.? I'm not familiar with cpm or mpm - would that provide BBS functions like messaging and file downloads?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Richard Cini <rich.cini@...>
Sent: August 20, 2020 3:35 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Z80MC] A modern BBS ?
Like this: ?
? There’s also the serial-ethernet bridge link I sent the other day. ? Rich ? -- Rich Cini
? ? On 8/20/20, 3:33 PM, "bill rowe" <[email protected] on behalf of bill_rowe_ottawa@...> wrote: ? It’s more the BBS server we would need to find I think.
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Re: A modern BBS
开云体育Like this: ? ? There’s also the serial-ethernet bridge link I sent the other day. ? Rich ? -- Rich Cini ? ? On 8/20/20, 3:33 PM, "bill rowe" <[email protected] on behalf of bill_rowe_ottawa@...> wrote:
? It’s more the BBS server we would need to find I think.
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Re: A modern BBS
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Aug 20, 2020, at 3:06 PM, Richard Cini <rich.cini@...> wrote:
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Re: A modern BBS
开云体育Here’s the link… ? ? Rich ? -- Rich Cini ? ? On 8/20/20, 3:00 PM, "bill rowe" <[email protected] on behalf of bill_rowe_ottawa@...> wrote:
? Rather than trying to accommodate HTML and a browser.? It might be worthwhile to pursue telnet which is sort of TTY over TCP/IP.? The only hardware interface you need is the kind of ethernet card you use with an Arduino and the code is not that hard(see below).? I have thought about a BBS for the 1802 but never found software that seemed workable - probably much easier to find something for the Z80. ? I did a bunch of telnet tries on both the 1802 and Z80 with the code mostly in C. The first link is simplest code.? The second link is to a server running a simple game on a Z80 MC over both telnet and browser. ?
? ? ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of joshbensadon via groups.io <joshbensadon@...> ? I think Leif even runs an internet BBS from his home.? He's a good guy, local to me, we used to see each other at the monthly TPUG meetings before covid. ? ? ? ? On Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 08:18:44 p.m. EDT, Richard Cini <rich.cini@...> wrote: ? ? Found it: |
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Re: A modern BBS
开云体育I found this on Github that looks like a Z80 client. ? ? Rich ? -- Rich Cini ? ? On 8/20/20, 3:00 PM, "bill rowe" <[email protected] on behalf of bill_rowe_ottawa@...> wrote:
? Rather than trying to accommodate HTML and a browser.? It might be worthwhile to pursue telnet which is sort of TTY over TCP/IP.? The only hardware interface you need is the kind of ethernet card you use with an Arduino and the code is not that hard(see below).? I have thought about a BBS for the 1802 but never found software that seemed workable - probably much easier to find something for the Z80. ? I did a bunch of telnet tries on both the 1802 and Z80 with the code mostly in C. The first link is simplest code.? The second link is to a server running a simple game on a Z80 MC over both telnet and browser. ?
? ? ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of joshbensadon via groups.io <joshbensadon@...> ? I think Leif even runs an internet BBS from his home.? He's a good guy, local to me, we used to see each other at the monthly TPUG meetings before covid. ? ? ? ? On Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 08:18:44 p.m. EDT, Richard Cini <rich.cini@...> wrote: ? ? Found it: |
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Re: A modern BBS
开云体育
Rather than trying to accommodate HTML and a browser.? It might be worthwhile to pursue telnet which is sort of TTY over TCP/IP.? The only hardware interface you need is the kind of ethernet card you use with an Arduino and the code is not that hard(see below).?
I have thought about a BBS for the 1802 but never found software that seemed workable - probably much easier to find something for the Z80.
I did a bunch of telnet tries on both the 1802 and Z80 with the code mostly in C. The first link is simplest code.? The second link is to a server running a simple game on a Z80 MC over both telnet and browser.
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of joshbensadon via groups.io <joshbensadon@...>
Sent: August 20, 2020 7:16 AM To: [email protected] <[email protected]>; [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Z80MC] A modern BBS ?
I think Leif even runs an internet BBS from his home.? He's a good guy, local to me, we used to see each other at the monthly TPUG meetings before covid.
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 08:18:44 p.m. EDT, Richard Cini <rich.cini@...> wrote:
Found it:
and this one (a fork of one from Jim Brain): Rich -- Rich Cini ?On 8/18/20, 7:03 PM, "Lee Hart" <[email protected] on behalf of leeahart@...> wrote: ? ? Mark Moulding wrote: ? ? > I just fired up an old copy of Lynx under Win32, and was able to even ? ? > use Google.? It in no way requires a mouse - it uses key strokes to ? ? > select the next/previous "clickable" item (or text field).? I don't know ? ? > how this would map to an ASCII keyboard, instead of using the extra keys ? ? > on a PC keyboard, but I bet it's been handled... ? ? > ? ? > Taking a quick look at the source, it all looks to be in pretty ? ? > plain-Jane C... ? ? Richard Cini wrote: ? ? > There’s a smaller Lynx for DOS called “Links”. I have not tried it ? ? > but I did download the source for it. It also looks like it’s written ? ? > in C. ? ? This is exciting news! There are lots of CP/M C compilers (BDS-C, ? ? Small-C). I had assumed that a CP/M browser for the Z80 was a ? ? near-impossibility. But this is making it sound possible after all. ? ? So, I guess you need something that serves the same function as a modem ? ? (serial-to-phone line converter); but for serial-to-ethernet conversion? ? ? These existed for DOS; but I don't know if they were "WinModem" type ? ? gadgets that depended on DOS drivers to actually make them work. ? ? Lee Hart ? ? -- ? ? A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is ? ? nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. ? ? ? ? ? ? -- Antoine de Saint Exupery ? ? -- ? ? Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com |
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Re: Z80MC Front panel problem.
Paul, It's not a problem.? It's just not well explained in the manual.? The FE soft reset is detected in the Keyboard Scanning within the ISR.? It is to bring you back to the Monitor program, but if you are already in the monitor program it does nothing but still sets a flag that the next reset is via FE Soft.? Now, the next F0 reset gets reported as FE. If you enter a program at 8000 and run it, then try the FE, it should return you to the monitor mode. Examine 8000 Modify and enter C3 00 80? ?(jump to 8000) Examine the PC Change to 8000 RUN (Go?) Your status light should change from Monitor mode to Run mode. The front panel monitor should still be working fine (but not the RS-232). This is because FP Monitor is all in the ISR, while the RS-232 is mainline code (which is now executing a JMP $) FE should return you to monitor mode. Sorry for the confusion...? Cheers, Josh
On Wednesday, August 19, 2020, 03:22:32 p.m. EDT, Paul Bigwood <paul@...> wrote:
I've got wierd problem on my Front panel board. All keys work fine and display and LEDs are ok, but the F+E soft reset doesnt do anything. F+0 does a Hard Reset with display showing F-0? 01,, after a power up, but after doing something like E 8000 and a few steps up or down ,pressing F+E for a Soft reset does nothing. Pressing F+0 displays Soft? 01? Ive checked the board for shorts, and component values ( wondered if one of the R1 10k had gone o/c? but cant work out what has gone wrong.? Any pointers appreciated. Paul G3WYW |
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Re: A modern BBS
I think Leif even runs an internet BBS from his home.? He's a good guy, local to me, we used to see each other at the monthly TPUG meetings before covid.
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020, 08:18:44 p.m. EDT, Richard Cini <rich.cini@...> wrote:
Found it: and this one (a fork of one from Jim Brain): Rich -- Rich Cini ?On 8/18/20, 7:03 PM, "Lee Hart" <[email protected] on behalf of leeahart@...> wrote: ? ? Mark Moulding wrote: ? ? > I just fired up an old copy of Lynx under Win32, and was able to even ? ? > use Google.? It in no way requires a mouse - it uses key strokes to ? ? > select the next/previous "clickable" item (or text field).? I don't know ? ? > how this would map to an ASCII keyboard, instead of using the extra keys ? ? > on a PC keyboard, but I bet it's been handled... ? ? > ? ? > Taking a quick look at the source, it all looks to be in pretty ? ? > plain-Jane C... ? ? Richard Cini wrote: ? ? > There’s a smaller Lynx for DOS called “Links”. I have not tried it ? ? > but I did download the source for it. It also looks like it’s written ? ? > in C. ? ? This is exciting news! There are lots of CP/M C compilers (BDS-C, ? ? Small-C). I had assumed that a CP/M browser for the Z80 was a ? ? near-impossibility. But this is making it sound possible after all. ? ? So, I guess you need something that serves the same function as a modem ? ? (serial-to-phone line converter); but for serial-to-ethernet conversion? ? ? These existed for DOS; but I don't know if they were "WinModem" type ? ? gadgets that depended on DOS drivers to actually make them work. ? ? Lee Hart ? ? -- ? ? A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is ? ? nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. ? ? ? ? ? ? -- Antoine de Saint Exupery ? ? -- ? ? Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com |
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Z80MC Front panel problem.
I've got wierd problem on my Front panel board.
All keys work fine and display and LEDs are ok, but the F+E soft reset doesnt do anything. F+0 does a Hard Reset with display showing F-0? 01,, after a power up, but after doing something like E 8000 and a few steps up or down ,pressing F+E for a Soft reset does nothing. Pressing F+0 displays Soft? 01? Ive checked the board for shorts, and component values ( wondered if one of the R1 10k had gone o/c? but cant work out what has gone wrong.? Any pointers appreciated. Paul G3WYW |
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Re: A modern BBS
Contiki? has one major problem as I check often.? Its hardware specific, and
no sources.? I think it wants a C128 or similar.? Generally the Commieswere? pretty slick machines but those that could run CP/M were not typical of other CP/M systems in configuration and features.? Not always bad but standards.... CP/M in general is limited to character serial IO or something that looks like that.? That's what it knows.? However I'll add that only the OS structure, the applications running on that base can do literally anything limited only by code and memory.? Side note to that is graphics standards were generally hardware specific and not at all portable. PC modem cards were in two forms dumb (aka win modems) that required the PC cpu to do most of the lifting for flipping bits and buffering data.? The earlier and external modems (through the 56K units) were a serial port interfaced to the bus and a full modem with smarts (usually 6502 based) and used the same AT protocal to dial/connect/hangup and of couse encoding. The crappy winmodems (win95 and win98 only) were not at all popular as it ate CPU and tended to?be flakey.? ?Modems for DOS, NT, WIn2K and later had to be of the smarter(complete) form as OS was not generally friendly to drivers like the winmodems used (cpu eaters). Ethernet boards (and later wifi) were increasingly smarter and designed to relieve the cpu of workload. Drivers for them were often specific but the chipsets used were of a limited larger group so many board used the same drivers. These days you can get a whole WIFI or Ethernet to serial adaptor. The little board does most all of the work and you only need to talk at it like a very fast buffered modem. Allison |
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Re: A modern BBS
Richard Cini wrote:
There is something for the Commodore computers which did just that. ItThere was a web browser for the C64 called Con-Tiki, I think. It provided a Windows-like user interface, and used some little box to connect to the internet, via an ethernet connector, as I recall. I also remember ethernet modems for PCs. Some were plug in cards, others were like external modems that connected via the PC's RS-232 ports. I don't know how they worked. I suspect there were special software drivers that ran on the PC to talk to them. They were mainly used to network multiple PCs. I've seen a number of people who put their vintage computer on-line by using a serial port to connect it to a PC, and then software on the PC to do all the "heavy lifting" to get it on the web. But that feels a bit like cheating. :-) What I'm thinking of is far less ambitious. Basically, have a website specifically set up to be as easy as possible for vintage computers to navigate. You just need some way to get to the page. Then all the displays a simple ASCII, and you'd send it ASCII keystrokes to navigate. Lee Hart -- A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -- Antoine de Saint Exupery -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com |
Lee Hart
Paul Bigwood