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Hi Jared, It's of no consequence to my Y-DNA lineage or to your research,?but in another line?I'm supposedy a descendant of?Nicholas Smith d.1719 Surry County, VA, and wife Elizabeth Flood. His Y-lineage seems to be I-M223-group 1 (#134470) at the Smith Project, but R-M269-group 32 is another possibility. Best, Charles

Joel noted on the R-L513 list that YFull has updated their tree based on Bennett's results - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S5668/ R-Z16351 is our branch (what I call Z16357). They have Joel alone at the base of this branch because there's not yet other results to differentiate him. They now have Thomas and Bennett on the Y29969 branch. I had identified this SNP as being distinctive to Thomas and Bennett at http://dna.smithplanet.com/snp They don't show BY11573 for them (like I, FTDNA, and Big Tree do), probably because it was a questionable read for both - and they don't have Merrick's results or SNP Pack results to add validity to it. Merrick had no or poor test coverage for Y29969, so for now we should consider Y29969 and BY11573 to be phylogenetically equivalent. I'll update my tree to reflect this. They also updated the Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA) estimates - moving Z16351/Z16357 (Hartley) a bit older to 1550 ybp and Y29969 (Thomas and Bennett) to 1200 ybp. Jared

I'd like to welcome Michael Hartley to the group. He has kit #617805 and has recently done the Y67 DNA test. He likely shows as a match to some of you (he is GD=7 to me at Y67). I've added him to the STR and GDs spreadsheets - http://dna.smithplanet.com/str I also added another Hartley from their surname project - there are now 5 Hartleys and Sanchez (who is a Hartley) in addition to Joel. These are all very good candidates for additional testing on the Hartley branch of Z17911. Michael's most distant known ancestor originates in England around 1660, then came to Pennsylvania in a Quaker emigration. Having such an old ancestor defined for our tree is very helpful. Hopefully we can establish Michael's location on our tree. Welcome aboard Michael! Jared

I've just updated and uploaded new STR and GD spreadsheets - http://dna.smithplanet.com/str I tried to position people based on rough groupings. Sorting the GD spreadsheet by column provides the best insight into relationships. I added some of our Hartley and Thomas relatives. I also added newly found Watkins and Griffin people (all closely associated to Vaughn/Vaughan). Also some Martyn people closely associated to Thomas. Charles, do you know the connection here? I think I've mostly completed what I've considered Phase 1 of this project - identifying potential R-Z16357 people and future SNP testers from people who have taken Y-DNA tests. I've exhausted Mike W.'s spreadsheet, my STR matches, and several other sources. We're now at 75 very promising potential testers on our spreadsheet! But I know there are more out there. You can help with this by checking your FTDNA Y-STR matches (at Y25+) for people I could add, especially focusing on surname groups I may have missed. Some of you will have matches that I can't see. Unfortunately, it's difficult to find good potential matches to the Smith, etc. people who are or are likely Z16357. If we consider S5668 (the parent SNP to Z16357) as the trunk, and Z16357 as the base of our branch, then R-Z17911 is way out at the end of that long branch. So when you do STR comparisons, these Smiths are closer matches to hundreds of people on totally different branches than they are to us at the end of their own branch. This poses a distinct challenge, but we have many good prospects identified already. We'll now transition into recruiting these people to do Big-Y, or (as we better define the STR grouping positions on the SNP tree) SNP pack or single SNP tests. And also trying to connect genealogical lines and geographies. Jared Smith (FTDNA #307773)

Does anyone know why I have a 0 SNP difference to Thomas and Bennett and a 2 SNP difference to Merrick on the Big Y?

I wrote a Blog on a Z17911 STR Tree. The Tree covers Smith, Goff, Gilroy, Hartley and Sanchez. I haven't tackled a STR Tree for BY11573 yet, but mention those in that Group also (Thomas, Merrick and Bennett and perhaps a few others). Joel Hartley

Thomas Goff's SNP pack results are in and he has moved way down to the tips of the Z17911 branch. He is both BY11573+ (currently with Thomas, Bennett, and Merrick) and also BY11565+ which is only Merrick. With him and Merrick both having this SNP, this creates a new BY11565+ branch of our tree!!! I had this as a theoretical branch, but this confirms it. It also adds additional credibility to BY11573 as a very solid branch, and pushes the tips of this branch at least 100 years closer to present day. Thank you Mr. Goff for investing in this test! I need to process and analyze these results a bit more, but have updated the SNP tree at http://dna.smithplanet.com/snp. I catch a flight for NYC early in the morning, but will soon notify Mike W. to update his R-L513 tree. I also think that FTDNA should probably also push a terminal SNP name update for all 4 of you to reflect these findings. I'm not sure if Merrick has done a FamilyFinder test, but if so, it would be worth checking for an autosomal DNA match between you. It's probably a long shot, but a match would place your common ancestor within the last few hundred years. Unfortunately, this does cause some disruption to Joel's STR analysis in his wonderful blog post today. The STRs he suggests map to Z17911 and Z11573 work for everyone - except for Goff - who is just the opposite. I, like Joel, had presumed that Goff would stay at Z17911 based on his STR results. He's a very close STR match to me, but I don't have BY11573 or BY11565. I guess this shows that STRs (at least less than 111+ of them) are still just a rough predictor of haplogroup - especially for this last ~1000 years of our branch. This is all very exciting to me! Jared

New messages to the discussion list can be sent to [email protected] Subscribe by e-mailing [email protected] or go to /g/Z16357 The Z16357 project web site is http://dna.smithplanet.com/ It has STR and SNP spreadsheets, known ancestries for members, and additional information and resources on our branch of the Y-DNA tree. Today I added a new tree overview graphic at http://dna.smithplanet.com/snp and on the homepage. It should provide a more basic overview of where folks are at - or may end up with testing. I also added Joel's STR relationship chart to the STR page. I've also further extended the STR and GD spreadsheets with likely Z16357+ people. I want to add as many as I can find, then I'll focus more on recruiting them to the project (I'll need help from others to get contact info from their Y-DNA and Big-Y matches). The tree is likely to change a bit in the coming month or so with the several tests that are underway - it makes sense to get a better sense of where some of the new people end up before recommending tests for others. Feedback and additional ideas are very welcome. Jared

To start a new message thread or subject, click on "New Topic" just below the "Messages" item on the far left of the page. ?I'm not sure why they don't include this button on the Messages page. James