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Z scale standards and such
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--- In Z-Bend_Track@..., "cgwcnw" <ksonta@...> wrote:
not sure if they will be z-> bend or t-trak style. The current plan is to hand lay he track and coming from N-scale I need some pointers on several dimensions. Hi cgwcnw or is it Ksonta or K. Sonta I don't mean to be poking fun but it is easier if we have a name or title that can be used when replying to your messages. I hope that I don't repeat any previous answers that you may have already received. You only need to conform to Zbend or Ttrack if you plan to connect your modules to any of them. And then, you only need conforming track at those points were you will be making connections. ------------------ 1. Is there a commercially available track gauge one can obtain? Micro Trains has a combination coupler height gauge and a track gauge. It is a track gauge for tangent track only. See a picture at Z Scale Monster.com Republic Locomotive Works RLW has a NMRA type gauge and a three point gauge. I don't know what size rail the three point gauge applies to. It is probably for code 40 rail. Three point track gauges are rail head size specific. RLW caters to the N scale n3 narrow gauge crowd. Nn3 uses Marklin Z scale mechanisms and track. Visit the following site and scroll half way down for the track gauges. I don't know how applicable the Nn3 clearance gauge is to Z scale but the track gauge is accurate. 6.5mm In my opinion, it is a little wide for Z scale tangent track. A British Z scale club also has a three point Z scale track gauge. Their three point gauge fits Marklin rail. They also have a gauge for the back to back dimension of Z scale wheels. Personally I use a 1/4 inch square aluminum tube for tangent track and a short piece of 1/4 inch aluminum rod stood on end for curved track. 1/4 inch stock is equal to 6.35mm. Since I am not very accurate with my work I rely on my sloppiness to achieve a proper track gauge. Commercial Z gauge track is gauged to 6.5mm. Even the sharpest Marklin curved sections are gauged to 6.5mm. So much for having wider gauge in sharply curved track. (Does that mean that a Z scale 3 point gauge causes sharply curved track to have a gauge that is over wide?) (Sometime ago, someone posted the different track gauges encountered in a Marklin turnout. Does anyone remember where that was posted? I want a reference to the narrowest portion of that track.) ---------------------- 2. What rail sizes are typically used Code 40 /50/ other? There is no rail size that is typical for handlaid Z scale track. At least, not yet. I have seen Nn3 handlaid track using code 40 rail and I have seen pictures of Mark Fielder,s Pizza layout with handlaid track and Brian Harrap's Z scale layout which uses track and wheels to exact scale standards. I may be wrong but I thought that I read somewhere that Brian heated Z scale rail and stretched it untill he got it drawn to an acceptable size. Perhaps I just got that confused with Hiromi Masaki's work. For a look at Hiromi Masaki's work see: For flex track or sectional track there are three manufacturers. They all use different size rail. For a comparison of these three different tracks go to Sven-Martin Holt's website and scroll down to "Z-scale track dimensions". Click on this and you will be taken to a site that lists the different rail sizes and their dimensions. Sven-Martin has helpfully also posted a photo of the three different makes of track. You can see that, besides using different size rail, each manufacturer has a different spacing for their ties. The Peco and Marklin follow UK and European standards. MicroTrains follow North American standards. The Peco track is used by our North American Nn3 railroaders. The wider tie spacing is closer to their N scale narrow gauge track standards. Code 40 rail is commonly available at your LHS or at any internet train store. There is also a code 30 rail and a code 25 rail if you want even smaller rail. These two rails do not have a rail profile They are ribbon rails but they present a very narrow rail head and give your Z trains a very convincing look. For the code 30 rail you will have to join the 2mm Scale Association. It is a British club and the membership is required for any purchases because of the UK tax laws. The code 25 rail is being sold by "David K. Smith" <david@...>. You would have to email him to see if it is still available. For PC ties the 2mm Scale Association ties are the most convenient. They are cut to Z scale 8.5ft lengths and come with an insulating gap already cut in them. I have some Fast Track Z scale ties but they came in 18ft scale lengths. You will have to cut them in half to get 9 ft ties and you will have to cut your own insulating gaps into the copper. Small rail has expansion problems when exposed to extreme heat variances. Such as: sitting for a time in direct sunlight. Some of this problem can be overcome by using all PC ties. The Nn3 folks have handlaid code 40 rail and they don't seem to be having any problems. I think that they used all PC ties. A Z scaler tried using every 6th tie as a PC tie but the rail expansion between the soldered ties made the track unusable. Some people suggest that any rail be heated in an oven at 250 deg for a half hour. This is supposed to relieve any stress that is in the rail. The stress is derived from it being drawn through a die to achieve the rail profile. Others think that this is all hogwash. Do as you wish. ----------------------- 3. Turnouts frogs will be 5 for the yards and 7's or 9's on the mainline. What are the typical ones used in Z-scale? So far, we had only Marklin turnouts. Now there are turnouts from Aspan and there is The JHM company. I could find no URL for them but you can find them through here: Marklin turnout has no frog # designation. some say 4.5? The Aspan turnouts have no remarks about turnout angles. JHM has #6 and #8s. The Aspan and the JHM turnouts use wider tie spacing than the Micro Trains track. For most in this group, it seems that current Z scale modelers favor a turnout that can be substituted for a Marklin turnout. That may be because most Z scale layouts 'till now, use Marklin sectional track and any turnout must be a drop in for the Marklin turnout. There have been reports of Z scale turnouts that have been handlaid at various frog angles but, to my knowledge, only Lajos Thek of Zthek has posted any photos to the net. I have seen many photos of handlaid Nn3 turnouts but do not remember any for Z scale turnouts. ----------------------- 3. Coming from N-scale I have several track gauges that indicate clearances for the tunnel portals and bridges etc. what are the equivalent clearances for Z gauge? There has been no published clearance standards for Z. Many Z scale modelers use Marklin's minimum radius curves with Marklin's passenger cars and they require a lot of side clearance. Until a few years ago there were no Z scale cars that required a lot of overhead clearance. Overhead height was determined by Marklin's cantenary system. Now that we have the Gunderson cars and soon, perhaps, the auto racks, many existing layouts will have clearance problems. Just as the prototype RRs had problems with the new Post WWII equipment where they had to lower the tracks in their tunnels and under their bridges in order for these tall cars to clear. Some of them removed double track mainlines and single tracked them in the center of the tunnel where there was more overhead height. You will have to determine your own overhead and side clearances depending on the type of equipment that you will use and the minimum radius that you will use. ------------------------ I can't help you with the next two questions. I still use an Electrapack Senior from Scintilla Rail and Power Works, Inc. (circa 1951) You crack that throttle just a little bit and my MTL F7 scoots down the track as if someone lit a firecracker to its' tail. 4. My locomotives consists of One MTL F7's A-B-A set, three MTL gp 35's and z-theks SW1. I plan on converting these over to DCC with Lenz Gold decoders, any hints and tips? 5. What DCC track voltages should one use, I will have a Digitrax zephyr unit as my command station, Left over from N-scale. --------------------- 6. Where can one find decals for prr. I plan on painting the sw-1 to pensy. My understanding from the posts on this group, you will have to use existing N scale decals. A couple of members in do make decals on special order. I hope that you do not need decals for UP. There is a legal staff at UP who are trying to justify their salaries by looking for the unlawful use of the UP logo. (and they earn a LOT of money) Who is Pennsy's successor? the U.S. Government? Conrail was U.S. Gvmt right? They need money also. That means the FBI and who is the head of all that? The old boss of Brownie from FEMA and he is a lawyer too. WOW! If you hand lay track, I suggest that you hand letter your trains also. There really is a conspiracy going on. <;o(( --------------------------- As I get into this deeper I know I will have more questions. Thanks ------------------------------------ Bill K. I am sorry for the length of this post but K. asked a lot of questions. Hope that this helps some. I have to quit here. My aluminum hat is beginning to get uncomfortable. <:o)) Bill H. El Toro, CA |
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--- In Z-Bend_Track@..., zbendtrack@... wrote:
section for many more modelers to read over time. OK Bill, I finally got it posted to the files section. What a chore! It did not word wrap so I had to take it back to insert returns. I also have some topical remarks included so I may someday remove them. I plan to have my track to my own standards. Code 30, so I have to know just what standards are in practice and where I can make changes that will not harm operations. That is why I have gathered so much information. As you are aware, we are trying to start up a Zbend modular organization here in So Calif. Having Lajos with us also causes us to "bend" the rules. Seeing Jim Manley's super lightweight modules taught me a lot. Also the new MicroTrack track system adds a new dimension to modular layouts. We will see what happens at the Costa Mesa show. Being active at a show is a whole 'nother thing. Is there a way to sling a bed under one of the modules? Bill H. El Toro, CA |
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SJ-BAZ man
Bill,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
An F letter drill is 6.528mm. A handy reference for drills and dimensions is: Jeff M -----Original Message-----
From: Z-Bend_Track@... [mailto:Z-Bend_Track@...]On Behalf Of Bill Hoshiko Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 11:31 AM To: Z-Bend_Track@... Subject: [Z-Bend_Track] Z scale standards and such --- In Z-Bend_Track@..., "cgwcnw" <ksonta@...> wrote: > > Ok folks, I bit the bullet and I am building four z tack modules, not sure if they will be z-> bend or t-trak style. The current plan is to hand lay he track and coming from N-scale I need some pointers on several dimensions. > Hi cgwcnw or is it Ksonta or K. Sonta I don't mean to be poking fun but it is easier if we have a name or title that can be used when replying to your messages. I hope that I don't repeat any previous answers that you may have already received. You only need to conform to Zbend or Ttrack if you plan to connect your modules to any of them. And then, you only need conforming track at those points were you will be making connections. ------------------ 1. Is there a commercially available track gauge one can obtain? Micro Trains has a combination coupler height gauge and a track gauge. It is a track gauge for tangent track only. See a picture at Z Scale Monster.com Republic Locomotive Works RLW has a NMRA type gauge and a three point gauge. I don't know what size rail the three point gauge applies to. It is probably for code 40 rail. Three point track gauges are rail head size specific. RLW caters to the N scale n3 narrow gauge crowd. Nn3 uses Marklin Z scale mechanisms and track. Visit the following site and scroll half way down for the track gauges. I don't know how applicable the Nn3 clearance gauge is to Z scale but the track gauge is accurate. 6.5mm In my opinion, it is a little wide for Z scale tangent track. A British Z scale club also has a three point Z scale track gauge. Their three point gauge fits Marklin rail. They also have a gauge for the back to back dimension of Z scale wheels. Personally I use a 1/4 inch square aluminum tube for tangent track and a short piece of 1/4 inch aluminum rod stood on end for curved track. 1/4 inch stock is equal to 6.35mm. Since I am not very accurate with my work I rely on my sloppiness to achieve a proper track gauge. Commercial Z gauge track is gauged to 6.5mm. Even the sharpest Marklin curved sections are gauged to 6.5mm. So much for having wider gauge in sharply curved track. (Does that mean that a Z scale 3 point gauge causes sharply curved track to have a gauge that is over wide?) (Sometime ago, someone posted the different track gauges encountered in a Marklin turnout. Does anyone remember where that was posted? I want a reference to the narrowest portion of that track.) ---------------------- 2. What rail sizes are typically used Code 40 /50/ other? There is no rail size that is typical for handlaid Z scale track. At least, not yet. I have seen Nn3 handlaid track using code 40 rail and I have seen pictures of Mark Fielder,s Pizza layout with handlaid track and Brian Harrap's Z scale layout which uses track and wheels to exact scale standards. I may be wrong but I thought that I read somewhere that Brian heated Z scale rail and stretched it untill he got it drawn to an acceptable size. Perhaps I just got that confused with Hiromi Masaki's work. For a look at Hiromi Masaki's work see: For flex track or sectional track there are three manufacturers. They all use different size rail. For a comparison of these three different tracks go to Sven-Martin Holt's website and scroll down to "Z-scale track dimensions". Click on this and you will be taken to a site that lists the different rail sizes and their dimensions. Sven-Martin has helpfully also posted a photo of the three different makes of track. You can see that, besides using different size rail, each manufacturer has a different spacing for their ties. The Peco and Marklin follow UK and European standards. MicroTrains follow North American standards. The Peco track is used by our North American Nn3 railroaders. The wider tie spacing is closer to their N scale narrow gauge track standards. Code 40 rail is commonly available at your LHS or at any internet train store. There is also a code 30 rail and a code 25 rail if you want even smaller rail. These two rails do not have a rail profile They are ribbon rails but they present a very narrow rail head and give your Z trains a very convincing look. For the code 30 rail you will have to join the 2mm Scale Association. It is a British club and the membership is required for any purchases because of the UK tax laws. The code 25 rail is being sold by "David K. Smith" <david@...>. You would have to email him to see if it is still available. For PC ties the 2mm Scale Association ties are the most convenient. They are cut to Z scale 8.5ft lengths and come with an insulating gap already cut in them. I have some Fast Track Z scale ties but they came in 18ft scale lengths. You will have to cut them in half to get 9 ft ties and you will have to cut your own insulating gaps into the copper. Small rail has expansion problems when exposed to extreme heat variances. Such as: sitting for a time in direct sunlight. Some of this problem can be overcome by using all PC ties. The Nn3 folks have handlaid code 40 rail and they don't seem to be having any problems. I think that they used all PC ties. A Z scaler tried using every 6th tie as a PC tie but the rail expansion between the soldered ties made the track unusable. Some people suggest that any rail be heated in an oven at 250 deg for a half hour. This is supposed to relieve any stress that is in the rail. The stress is derived from it being drawn through a die to achieve the rail profile. Others think that this is all hogwash. Do as you wish. ----------------------- 3. Turnouts frogs will be 5 for the yards and 7's or 9's on the mainline. What are the typical ones used in Z-scale? So far, we had only Marklin turnouts. Now there are turnouts from Aspan and there is The JHM company. I could find no URL for them but you can find them through here: Marklin turnout has no frog # designation. some say 4.5? The Aspan turnouts have no remarks about turnout angles. JHM has #6 and #8s. The Aspan and the JHM turnouts use wider tie spacing than the Micro Trains track. For most in this group, it seems that current Z scale modelers favor a turnout that can be substituted for a Marklin turnout. That may be because most Z scale layouts 'till now, use Marklin sectional track and any turnout must be a drop in for the Marklin turnout. There have been reports of Z scale turnouts that have been handlaid at various frog angles but, to my knowledge, only Lajos Thek of Zthek has posted any photos to the net. I have seen many photos of handlaid Nn3 turnouts but do not remember any for Z scale turnouts. ----------------------- 3. Coming from N-scale I have several track gauges that indicate clearances for the tunnel portals and bridges etc. what are the equivalent clearances for Z gauge? There has been no published clearance standards for Z. Many Z scale modelers use Marklin's minimum radius curves with Marklin's passenger cars and they require a lot of side clearance. Until a few years ago there were no Z scale cars that required a lot of overhead clearance. Overhead height was determined by Marklin's cantenary system. Now that we have the Gunderson cars and soon, perhaps, the auto racks, many existing layouts will have clearance problems. Just as the prototype RRs had problems with the new Post WWII equipment where they had to lower the tracks in their tunnels and under their bridges in order for these tall cars to clear. Some of them removed double track mainlines and single tracked them in the center of the tunnel where there was more overhead height. You will have to determine your own overhead and side clearances depending on the type of equipment that you will use and the minimum radius that you will use. ------------------------ I can't help you with the next two questions. I still use an Electrapack Senior from Scintilla Rail and Power Works, Inc. (circa 1951) You crack that throttle just a little bit and my MTL F7 scoots down the track as if someone lit a firecracker to its' tail. 4. My locomotives consists of One MTL F7's A-B-A set, three MTL gp 35's and z-theks SW1. I plan on converting these over to DCC with Lenz Gold decoders, any hints and tips? 5. What DCC track voltages should one use, I will have a Digitrax zephyr unit as my command station, Left over from N-scale. --------------------- 6. Where can one find decals for prr. I plan on painting the sw-1 to pensy. My understanding from the posts on this group, you will have to use existing N scale decals. A couple of members in do make decals on special order. I hope that you do not need decals for UP. There is a legal staff at UP who are trying to justify their salaries by looking for the unlawful use of the UP logo. (and they earn a LOT of money) Who is Pennsy's successor? the U.S. Government? Conrail was U.S. Gvmt right? They need money also. That means the FBI and who is the head of all that? The old boss of Brownie from FEMA and he is a lawyer too. WOW! If you hand lay track, I suggest that you hand letter your trains also. There really is a conspiracy going on. <;o(( --------------------------- As I get into this deeper I know I will have more questions. Thanks ------------------------------------ Bill K. I am sorry for the length of this post but K. asked a lot of questions. Hope that this helps some. I have to quit here. My aluminum hat is beginning to get uncomfortable. <:o)) Bill H. El Toro, CA SPONSORED LINKS G scale train Ho scale model train Model train n scale G scale model train Ho scale trains N scale trains ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS a.. Visit your group "Z-Bend_Track" on the web. b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: Z-Bend_Track-unsubscribe@... c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- |
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--- In Z-Bend_Track@..., "SJ-BAZ man" <sj-baz-man@...>
wrote: dimensions is:Thanks Jeff. But my intention is to narrow the gauge. If 6.5mm is OK for the tightest Marklin curves then 6.5mm must be too wide for tangent track. This is consistent with the old "the gauge must be wider on curves so we use a three point track gauge" rule. A wide gauge on tangent track causes the wheels to "crab" down the track. This causes more derailments as the flanges scrub the side of the rail and pick on little nicks and poor track work. A tight gauge will keep all wheels in line and prevent your locomotive from "hunting" its way down the track. There is a complete engineering reason for the design of the rail and the wheel thread and the wheel flange that theoretically keeps the wheel centered on the track. Only on sharp curves should the flange ever encounter the rail. With model trains we have a side pressure put on the wheels due to coupler spring action. If there is a well designed track and wheel combination theoretically the wheel flange should never touch the rail. I learned a lot about the relationship between wheel and rail by reading an article about why Lionel trains seldom derail. The main reason for this is that they use a round top rail while scale modelers use a more flat topped rail. This was printed in an old late 1940s Lionel Trains model magazine. A too tight gauge will cause derailments if your wheels are not checked for having a proper gauge. The tighter gauge will also help in coupling. It centers the couplers so that they will properly couple. This is more critical with MT couplers than with the Marklin couplers. If I misinterpreted your message, please forgive me. Bill H. El Toro, CA |
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