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Issue receiving sysex dump from DX7
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Hi there and thanks for accepting me into this group.
As a quick introduction of myself, I'm from Germany, I have a number of 80s and 90s Yamaha synths, a nice bit of other equipment and some, albeit limited, knowledge in electronics (more of a software developer). I recently bought a DX 7 Mk 1 - according to the chips' timestamp it's probably built in fall 1983. I have an issue with it where I am a bit stuck. When I try to dump the internal memory, no MIDI interface recognizes any data, but something is being sent. The setup I have for testing: DX7 Mk 1 - MIDI out to a MOTU MIDI Express No-Name USB-MIDI converter connected to the MOTU Behringer FCA1616 connected to the MOTU Process for dumping the memory (if I understood the manual correctly, there should not be an issue there): Switch on DX7 ... :-) FUNCTION - 8 (MIDI Channel 1) - 8 - YES (Sysinfo avail) - 8 - YES Then I can see that the MOTU receives and relays something (the appropriate LEDs are all on for a time). I can see on both MIDI interfaces (no-name cable and FCA1616) that something is coming in, BUT no software on a PC (including DX Manager) sees any usable data. It's the same if I plug the interfaces directly into the DX7 (the MOTU helps sometimes, my no-name cable for example has issues talking to a CS1x directly, but all is fine if the MOTU relays the data). The DX7 can receive sysex, so I can send patches to it. Controller messages come out of the DX7. When dumping the sysex, the interfaces recognize the controller message for the "+1 YES", but after that nothing. Another thing that makes me wonder if there is an issue with my DX7 is: when I switch it on, the MOTU registers a repeating signal coming in, but it is not relaying that (maybe the incoming is not strong enough?), but after having tried to dump sysex, this quick repeating signal is relayed (output LEDs start flickering). And yet another potential hint: when the MOTU relays incoming signals back to the DX7, I actually see some data which looks very much like a sysex dump, but only the FCA1616 recognizes this f**ed up data stream, a small snippet of the data is: F2 48 45 F2 41 56 F2 59 4D F2 45 54 F2 4C 32 F2 35 40 If you remove the "F2"s, you get the name of one of the stored voices "HEAVYMETAL25" So, something somehow is coming. Is it an issue you have seen? My only ideas are that either the sending rate is somehow wrong or the electrical level is not "strong enough", and the factual feedback when the MOTU sends all back to the DX7 barely raises the level above recognition? I mean, I'm purely guessing here, I also suspected the firmware, but according to the ability to dump a sysex is not known to be a problem of a firmware. Any sensible idea, anything I could try, would be most welcome. Maybe one more piece of potentially relevant info: when I pluck my TX7 into the same cables, all is well. In the end this is for me more of a purist problem, as I would like to have my synthesizers all work to spec. I'm not planning on programming voices on the DX7 itself, I use software editors for that, and as I can send the patches over... Anyway, I don't like broken hardware :-) Cheers, Florian |
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Hi Florian
1.) no-name USB-MIDI have only one feature: they increase the income of some chinese factory manager. They don't provide the feature to transfer MIDI (at least they reach the end of their abilities with sysex). So: put it to the dumpster. 2.) what software do you use? for receiving / analysing / sending the sysex data? Regards Florian (too ;-) ) |
开云体育Hi Florian (it's like talking
to myself, just better),
On 17/11/2019 20:28, Florian Anwander wrote: 1.) no-name USB-MIDI have only one feature: they increase the income of some chinese factory manager. They don't provide the feature to transfer MIDI (at least they reach the end of their abilities with sysex). So: put it to the dumpster. Yeah, well... most of the time that one does its job, quite some programming work with a YS200 showed no issues (when relayed through the MOTU), also sending and receiving full dumps to/from an M1 worked out. Also I already have filled their pockets, as long as there is no pressing need, I won't fill the garbage can with it . Anyway, that's why I used the FCA1616 in parallel to test. And also the cheap cable uses class drivers, and the Behringer has its own, different drivers. 2.) what software do you use? for receiving / analysing / sending the sysex data? Usually / mainly something I have written myself using the WebMidiApi in Chrome. Also DX Manager 5 - I installed that to verify my suspicions, no experience with that, except that I successfully tested if it could talk to my TX7 - and also MIDI-Ox, SoundDiver and "MIDI Sysex file transfer utility". But except for the first, I'm no expert in any of these. I only know that with the cheap USB cable, I can't send bigger sysex with MIDI-Ox (that's why I installed the "MIDI Sysex file transfer utility"). I would usually believe that my own code would be the best source of truth for me, as I know what happens there. But then again, I don't know if the web midi api might already filter out stuff that it doesn't understand, and also of course I don't know if the Windows drivers might hide 'dirty' data. I have not tried using Linux or a Mac yet - if there is a realistic chance that Windows is to blame, I'll give it shot. Cheers, Florian |
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Hi Florian(s),
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0xF2 could be Song Position Pointer, but clearly that data is looking a little odd. Is your DX7 E!-upgraded or similar? I wonder if it's sending some (corrupt) sequencer-related info. It's odd that the hardware appears to be working in all other respects. jb Am 17.11.2019 um 20:28 schrieb Florian Anwander <fanwander@...>: |
开云体育Hi Jeremy,
On 17/11/2019 21:11, Jeremy Bernstein via Groups.Io wrote: 0xF2 could be Song Position Pointer, but clearly that data is looking a little odd. Is your DX7 E!-upgraded or similar? I wonder if it's sending some (corrupt) sequencer-related info. No, it's absolutely vanilla, no expansion boards, all chips are original. So the Song Pointer doesn't make any sense. The superfluous F2 is only in a part of the sysex, in other places it's B0 and other dirt as well, nothing that makes sense here. Cheers, Florian |
开云体育Are you actually going to the next MIDI TRANSMIT ? screen and pressing YES?? This just looks like regular MIDI data, including maybe an edit buffer dump.On 11/17/2019 3:38 PM, Florian Heer
wrote:
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I was just playing around with an SPX-updated DX7Mk1 in my studio. The 0xb0 appears to come? keypresses as I trigger the bulk dump from the interface. The dump itself looks normal on my box, though. The flickering light, btw, is just the active sensing and is totally (annoying, but) normal on Yamaha keyboards. Jb AllTheRest <alltherest@...> schrieb am Mo., 18. Nov. 2019, 00:38: Hi Jeremy, |
开云体育On 18/11/2019 15:14, grantpbt
wrote:
Are you actually going to the next MIDI TRANSMIT ? screen and pressing YES?? This just looks like regular MIDI data, including maybe an edit buffer dump. Hi, yes, I do. And the overall outcome is much longer than the short snippet. Hidden in it are the names of all 32 stored voices. So, this is a full bank dump, but corrupted. Cheers, Florian |
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Hi Jeremy,
On 18/11/2019 15:19, Jeremy Bernstein via Groups.Io wrote: The flickering light, btw, is just the active sensing and is totally (annoying, but) normal on Yamaha keyboards.Yes, the only thing I found strange about it, is that it first is only received by the MOTU and not relayed, but after trying to dump the sysex, it is also send to the outputs. Cheers, Florian |
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Maybe you could post the full output, just for fun. You seem like you have a good understanding of the data you're seeing, but I'm curious to see it anyway. Jeremy? Florian Heer <yamahadx@...> schrieb am Mo., 18. Nov. 2019, 15:21:
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Sure, can do, as soon as I'm back home.
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I'm happy if you can tell me that I'm dead wrong somewhere :-) On 18/11/2019 15:25, Jeremy Bernstein via Groups.Io wrote:
Maybe you could post the full output, just for fun. You seem like you have a good understanding of the data you're seeing, but I'm curious to see it anyway. |
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This kind of makes it sound like there's something filtering the data (or not) at the computer. But that's just wild guessing in the absence of more info. Do you have some kind of MIDI routing software running?? Florian Heer <yamahadx@...> schrieb am Mo., 18. Nov. 2019, 15:24: Hi Jeremy, |
开云体育More or less. The MOTU MIDI Express has a few functions as a standalone MIDI
distributor (I don't have the PCI card, nor any software, so I
only use presets). Usually I use the preset "Live Keyboard", which
means that all incoming MIDI data is relayed to all output ports,
except the one from which the data is coming. The test where I got the strange stream was done with the preset "Merge all" - everything that comes into the MOTU is distributed to all outputs, including the one the data was coming from. My MIDI-Interfaces are plucked into the MOTU just like every other device. I am not aware that the presets in the MOTU do any additional filtering. I must admit I have not watched for the active sensing signal when the MIDI interfaces were plugged directly into the DX7 - I'll look at that. But in the end result, directly plugging them in was never better than going through the MOTU. On the PCs is no MIDI routing / filtering. I specifically used a MIDI-wise virgin laptop to ensure that nothing like that was going on. However, and here is again a dark hole in my knowledge, I do not know how the windows drivers actually treat MIDI data. What could well be the case is that the drivers do not see fully valid MIDI (if I'm informed correctly, the early firmware in a DX7 did not send the F7 at the end of a sysex dump. But that is something I just read, not sure. So, potentially, the drivers look at the data, can't find the sysex end, and then just ignore it? Unfortunately I cannot be sure that I actually get the raw serial data. I am already thinking about putting an Arduino as raw MIDI-receiver into the mix...
On 18/11/2019 15:34, Jeremy Bernstein
via Groups.Io wrote:
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I've seen MIDI-OX mess up handling of sysex dumps - from my Behringer DeepMind 6.? Bome's SendSX worked perfectly.
I seem to have read somewhere that Windows MIDI drivers expand "running status" - so that software receives entire self contained MIDI messages instead of a status message followed by a stream of values for it.? If it was receiving a sysex dump but didn't see the header, for example, it could then mangle the data considerably, thinking some of it was running status messages, and adding the extra status bytes. I've had success using JSynthLib with my TX7, so I'd try that, to see if it can receive a dump from your DX7: but first try Bome's Send SX because it's simpler, with much less of a learning curve: Maybe just connect the DX7 direct to the PC via your no name USB-MIDI cable?? I'm not familiar with the MOTU but it sounds complicated enough to be part of the problem. - Andy |
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On 18/11/2019 16:02, andy2no via Groups.Io wrote:
I've seen MIDI-OX mess up handling of sysex dumps - from my Behringer DeepMind 6.? Bome's SendSX worked perfectly.That's why I tried various programs. I seem to have read somewhere that Windows MIDI drivers expand "running status" - so that software receives entire self contained MIDI messages instead of a status message followed by a stream of values for it.? If it was receiving a sysex dump but didn't see the header, for example, it could then mangle the data considerably, thinking some of it was running status messages, and adding the extra status bytes.Possible... Let's see if I can get any hardware to directly read and display the data on the MIDI cables as raw serial input before a solution is found. I've had success using JSynthLib with my TX7, so I'd try that, to see if it can receive a dump from your DX7:I'll try that when I come home. But I also do have a TX7 and there is no communication problem with that one at all, in any of the programs I tried. Okay, I haven't sent sysex via MIDI-Ox to it though. But the TX7 can send and receive banks without any issue. Maybe just connect the DX7 direct to the PC via your no name USB-MIDI cable?? I'm not familiar with the MOTU but it sounds complicated enough to be part of the problem.Yes, but as I already mentioned in my first post "It's the same if I plug the interfaces directly into the DX7 (the MOTU helps sometimes, my no-name cable for example has issues talking to a CS1x directly, but all is fine if the MOTU relays the data)." So, yes, of course, always trying to remove as many variables from the equation as possible. Cheers, Florian |
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Hi all,
so far thanks all for your suggestions. I tried to get Midi-Ox to write a log, but failed miserably. No idea if it's me, but nothing that was received ended up in the log, no matter the settings. Anyway, yesterday I tried to just dump the DX7 to the TX7 and that worked, the TX7 received and understood the dump. On 18/11/2019 16:02, andy2no via Groups.Io wrote: but first try Bome's Send SX because it's simpler, with much less of a learning curve:This one actually showed data when dumping (see attached). As suspected, the sysex-terminating 0xF7 was not included. So that fits with my guess that the DX7 is original from autumn 1983. As you can also see in the attached dump, the DX7 keeps sending 0x43 after ending the dump. This is almost exactly described in So, in that respect, sorry to have bothered you. It's just that before Bome, I didn't see any sensible data on my computer. So I guess part of the problem is that the MIDI stack expects well-formed MIDI and especially the Web MIDI API does not relay data that it doesn't understand. Quite a shame, I had hoped that I could do my MIDI stuff with that, but I'll always have to some raw receiver to verify the data. So, I was barking up the wrong tree, the DX7 was not (well...) to blame, it worked exactly to spec. Great to know. Again: thanks! Cheers, Florian |
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Good luck! Replacing the ROM chip with something newer (either stock 1.8 or the french superMax board on ebay) sounds like the way to go.
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jb Am 19.11.2019 um 21:34 schrieb Florian Heer <yamahadx@...>: |
开云体育Does Function+16+32 tell you the ROM version? If it's an old one then I agree with an updated ROM. I wouldn't add a complex expansion until things are well understood in the vanilla unit.GB On 11/20/2019 1:05 AM, Jeremy Bernstein
via Groups.Io wrote:
Good luck! Replacing the ROM chip with something newer (either stock 1.8 or the french superMax board on ebay) sounds like the way to go. jbAm 19.11.2019 um 21:34 schrieb Florian Heer <yamahadx@...>: So, I was barking up the wrong tree, the DX7 was not (well...) to blame, it worked exactly to spec. Great to know. |
开云体育No, it doesn't, it just goes through the tests, but no ROM version number. All I know is that the chip has the markings YAMAHA TG11461, YA3128, C86-3L1 (that is, I assume, IC 14 is the ROM). But as I now know that the behaviour is not really a defect in
my machine, but more a sign that it is (mostly) in its original
state, I don't see a reason to change that. I don't need to dump
from DX7, and even if, I now know a few workarounds. Except for, of course, if there are any reasons for me, if there is something a newer firmware does better, which is actually important for me. I'm not aware of anything right now. Cheer, Florian
On 20/11/2019 15:14, grantpbt wrote:
Does Function+16+32 tell you the ROM version? If it's an old one then I agree with an updated ROM. I wouldn't add a complex expansion until things are well understood in the vanilla unit. |
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AndyHornBlower
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