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DX21 and TX7
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Bruce Wahler
开云体育There are some basic functions that will transfer:
Foot volume is sent on CC7 from the DX21, rather than CC4.? The
TX7 can receive CC7; however the TX7's Foot Control Range, Pitch,
etc. have no meaning here -- unless you have a device that can map
MIDI CC7 to CC4. Given that the DX21 is 4-op FM, while the TX7 is 6-op, the
internal sound structures will be quite different.
Regards,
-BW Bruce Wahler Ashby Solutions.com? bw@... 978.597.7008 On 6/24/2020 2:58 PM, Mark Sherman
wrote:
Hi All,? |
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On Wed, 24 Jun 2020, Bruce Wahler via groups.io wrote:
Given that the DX21 is 4-op FM, while the TX7 is 6-op, the internal sound structures will be quite different.True. And 4-op vs 6-op is only one of the internal differences (The most important one). If you want to load DX21 patches in your TX7 then DXconvert can convert the SysEx files from DX21 to TX7. Not 100% identical, but quite usable. Both DX21 and TX7 can be programmed to react to keyboard velocity, but the DX21 keyboard is not velocity sensitive. Both can benifit a lot from a good external velocity sensitive masterkeyboard controller. -- MT |
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On Wed, 24 Jun 2020, Mark Sherman wrote:
Thank you, Bruce,The DX21 slider can do some things for a TX7 - Bruce explained in detail - but programming the TX7 is not one of them. The DX21 slider cannot transmit any SysEx messages that the TX7 can understand. You can use a DX7 to program a TX7. Or you can use Dexed or software like DX Manager to edit the TX7 soundparameters. Now I get a 10 operator FM synth :-)Or even 14 operators if you use the DX21 in Dual layered mode. You will love such killer layered sounds :-) -- MT |
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Indeed -- I was immediately interested in this topic, since I have both of those devices (plus others). The DX21 was the first. Whenever I think I'll sell it, I play it a bit and change my mind.
There's a psychological aspect here: I figured the DX21 as a more affordable DX7 ... so when I got a DX7ii, I expected the DX21 would have no more interest for me. (After all, having more operators is "better" right?). But the DX21 has that one slider -- you know, the one which lets you mix the two layers -- which somehow proves impossibly addicting for such a simple feature. In both cases I got them because they are quality-built machines: 35 years old, built like a tank, suitable for personal defense in the event of a rowdy audience. Back to the topic: I expect the DX7iiFD would do better talking to a TX7?? I got the TX7 after reading comments disparaging the DX7ii in comparison to the original, so figured that way I'd have both worlds. Haven't tried layering them together yet -- been too busy climbing other learning curves ... |
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Thanks all,?
I picked it up yesterday, it's truly in mint condition even has the sheet music holder. It's amazing what got by as piano's back in the day. Love the strings, and all of the organ presets. Now I have something to take to my friends house and jam, the K2500 is 50 lbs and I just keep on getting older :-) Thank you all for the information!! |
开云体育As someone that schlepped a CP-70B, I can assure you, the DX series is not “what got by as piano” back in the day. Every synth out there has a patch marked “piano” – but that doesn’t mean it was ever acceptable. ? L. ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Sherman
Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2020 7:52 PM To: Joe Prisco; [email protected] Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] DX21 and TX7 ? Thanks all,? |
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Bruce Wahler
开云体育Agreed, but it was always a matter or perspective.? The stages I played on couldn't support a CP-70 (nor could my budget), but I dragged a CP-30 around with me.? (I especially liked how the top cover turned into a stand.)? But if I was playing in say, a synth-pop group that did *one* '50s medley, the DX piano would have been tempting -- particularly if I didn't solo.I remember reading that Dr. Chowning thought that FM could ultimately clone complex instruments like piano and violin.? The problem was the amount of effort to get the attacks and other 'stuff' (Yamaha's term) right.? It would have probably taken 20-30 operators, and a half a year of a good FM programmer's time, to get all the nuances right!
Regards,
-BW Bruce Wahler Ashby Solutions.com? bw@... 978.597.7008 On 6/29/2020 9:11 AM, LarryS wrote:
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开云体育There were even some attempts to program acceptable piano sound on TX816 (48 operators) but still not quite successful as I have read somewhere. Anyway it would be interesting to try those attempts but I didn’t found anything about it. Daniel Forro
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开云体育There comes a time when Acoustic Piano is not really even worth it.? I think Bruce has it right.? Sure it’s theoretically possible, but at what cost?? And what return? ? Moog used to publish a promo rag called “Imoogination”.? To read it, you’d think a Moog was capable of any sound on earth.? Obviously not the case.? FM has a tendency to do likewise and sorta believe their own hype.? ? I have a TX816 and the zoned-layered AP patch (#1) from the factory is deep and rich and very satisfying to play, especially on my KX88.? ?Love it. But it’s not really AP, not even then.? My Kurzweil rompler sounds much more like a genuine AP. ? But the TX816 is a crazy good, uh… well… clavichord? Or multi-clav?? Or piano-istic?? It’s not AP, but it’s rich and fun to play. ? I can’t even make a really good string sound on FM and usually, again, turn to a Kurzweil rompler. ? There’s amazing sounds in the FM repertoire.? But it came along at a time when acoustic emulation was all the rage and has tried to work that angle since day one.? Sure, it does some emulation pretty well.? But I’ve been much farther ahead exploring electronic sounds on FM and leaving emulation for large capacity sampling. ? L. ? From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Daniel Forró via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 9:01 AM To: [email protected]; bw@... Subject: Re: [YamahaDX] DX21 and TX7 ? There were even some attempts to program acceptable piano sound on TX816 (48 operators) but still not quite successful as I have read somewhere. Anyway it would be interesting to try those attempts but I didn’t found anything about it. ? Daniel Forro ? On Jun 29, 2020, at 22:30, Bruce Wahler via <bw@...> wrote: ? Agreed, but it was always a matter or perspective.? The stages I played on couldn't support a CP-70 (nor could my budget), but I dragged a CP-30 around with me.? (I especially liked how the top cover turned into a stand.)? But if I was playing in say, a synth-pop group that did *one* '50s medley, the DX piano would have been tempting -- particularly if I didn't solo. Regards, On 6/29/2020 9:11 AM, LarryS wrote:
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开云体育Hi Guys, I'm working on an acoustic piano patch right now, but on
an FS1R.? You can't do the piano justice on something as simple as
a DX7, there just aren't enough Operators.? Your estimate of about
30 sine wave operators is pretty close to where I'm at, using the
complex wave forms in the FS1R will reduce that by a factor of
four.? I'm trying to beat the quality of the original piano patch
on the FS1R done by Manny Fernandez, and I'm trying to do it with
just one Part (just 8 voiced Operators and a few unvoiced).? Manny
used two Parts in the factory patch, which has difficulty in the
mid-range around middle C.? His latest FM-X piano patch is much
better, but it uses 8 Parts on a Montage.? That's massive, 32 FM-X
Operators!? Manny has done a few FM tutorial videos on it for
Yamaha on the Yamaha Synth site.? I'm attempting to use the Inharmonicity concept from the VP1 and all of the complex wave forms in the FS1R (and a spectrum analyzer) to get an piano FM patch compacted down to just one Part.? I want all 32 notes available, not just 16 on my FS1R.? (I don't have the 128 FM notes a Montage provides.)? If you hold down the sustain pedal, it eats up polyphony really quickly.? Pieces like Ravel's Jeux d’eau have gaps where the sustained notes cut off due to polyphony at 16 notes.? I'm about 2/3 of the way there.? Another weekend or two and I'll have it.? It's already sounding much better than the factory FS1R pianos, I just need to thicken the sound in the bottom register and fine tune the top two octaves by de-tuning the note strike a bit more.? I've got recordings of a Yamaha CP70 grand piano I'm working to.? The patch won't be that high in quality, but I'm hoping it will be better than any other current FM piano patch. Since I'm cheating and using a spectrum analyzer and an FS1R, it's only going to take a month. Hi Daniel! Best Regards,? Thor? JavelinArt.com
On 6/29/2020 7:30 AM, Bruce Wahler via
groups.io wrote:
Agreed, but it was always a matter or perspective.? The stages I played on couldn't support a CP-70 (nor could my budget), but I dragged a CP-30 around with me.? (I especially liked how the top cover turned into a stand.)? But if I was playing in say, a synth-pop group that did *one* '50s medley, the DX piano would have been tempting -- particularly if I didn't solo. |
开云体育Hi, Thor, that sounds very interesting and promising. Good idea. Hearing such inspiring idea, I will still consider if to sell it or keep :-) Daniel Forro
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开云体育Thanks for the encouragement! I'll make a recording of it when I'm finished, it's only part way completed. I'll post the patch on the FS1R Facebook Group when I'm done as well.
On 6/30/2020 4:52 PM, Mark Sherman
wrote:
Wow, that's amazing amount of dedication to take the time to program all of those operators. Now I'm curious as to what it sounded like.? |
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following the discussion, sounds like wonderful ideas, thor!
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though being on no social network, i would sadly miss the patch on facebook then :-(( i don?t think, the group rules would speak against an FS1R patch on this list, hint, hint… thanks for considering hans Am 01.07.2020 um 04:24 schrieb Thor Z <thor276@...>: |
