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Nickel-Based Batteries [consider LiFePO4 accumulator]

 
Edited

LiFePO4 accumulator is better than NiMH - especially A123 Systems - now NEC:

Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) and A123 batteries.
PERHAPS THE BEST BATTERY TECHNOLOGY AVAILABLE:
https://www.rcmodelreviews.com/baffledbybatteries4.shtml
Quote: "...
In a situation where a LiPo might explode into flames, the LiFePO4 cell will probably just vent some harmless gas.

LiFePO4 Pro's:

??? very high power/weight ratio
??? very low self-discharge
??? more tollerant of over/under-charge/discharge
??? can be used for RC gear without needing regulators

LiFePO4 Con's:

??? Only a limited range of battery capacities currently available
??? Odd-sizes for most cells (not AA, C, D, etc) [I have bought AA (600mAh 3.2V; six have 1200mAh 9.6V 2P3S and a FBA-25A) and AAA (200mAh 3.2V) size in 2023 - presently untested]
??? LiFePO4-capable charger needed
..."
 

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Did anyone else get about 50 of these? Where is the moderator?

Sent from Chris's iPhone.


On Feb 19, 2023, at 06:28, glennmhdk <glenn.mh.dk@...> wrote:

?

[Edited Message Follows]

LiFePO4 accumulator is better than NiMH - especially A123 Systems - now NEC:

Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) and A123 batteries.
PERHAPS THE BEST BATTERY TECHNOLOGY AVAILABLE:
https://www.rcmodelreviews.com/baffledbybatteries4.shtml
Quote: "...
In a situation where a LiPo might explode into flames, the LiFePO4 cell will probably just vent some harmless gas.

LiFePO4 Pro's:

??? very high power/weight ratio
??? very low self-discharge
??? more tollerant of over/under-charge/discharge
??? can be used for RC gear without needing regulators

LiFePO4 Con's:

??? Only a limited range of battery capacities currently available
??? Odd-sizes for most cells (not AA, C, D, etc) [I have bought AA (600mAh 3.2V; six have 1200mAh 9.6V 2P3S) and AAA (200mAh 3.2V) size in 2023 - presently untested]
??? LiFePO4-capable charger needed
..."

 

I am sorry. It was one of my first messages.
 

I always get a smile when I read things like this.

I went through the Agency's school at Camp Peary.? They talked about planting bugs in foreign embassy's and consulates during construction and not being able to get back inside to change batteries in the bugs later.? The solution: the technology EXISTED to build batteries that would last years, and years, and years.? That was what they used.? They said the reason why that technology is not available to the consumer is because battery companies want to sell batteries.

That was in 1994.

I also remember in high school auto shop in the early 1970s the teacher told us that the 100 mpg carburetor had been invented.? He said the design was purchased by the oil companies and locked away in a safe never to be seen again.? Why?? Because they want to sell gasoline.

I'm sure this type of thing exists elsewhere, too.? It's like what I tell my wife often: be very careful before you throw away something just because it is old.? What you buy today to replace it will not be the same quality as the item you tossed away.

It's sad, but true.? We complain about saving the environment and yet we live in a disposable world...

- Mike




===========================================================
At 03:24 AM 2/19/2023, you wrote:

LiFePO4 accumulator is better than NiMH - especially A123 Systems - now NEC:

Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) and A123 batteries.
PERHAPS THE BEST BATTERY TECHNOLOGY AVAILABLE:

Quote: "...
In a situation where a LiPo might explode into flames, the LiFePO4 cell will probably just vent some harmless gas.

LiFePO4 Pro's:

??? very high power/weight ratio
??? very low self-discharge
??? more tollerant of over/under-charge/discharge
??? can be used for RC gear without needing regulators

LiFePO4 Con's:

??? Only a limited range of battery capacities currently available
??? Odd-sizes for most cells (not AA, C, D, etc)
??? LiFePO4-capable charger needed
 

NiMh packs, properly maintained: 1,000 discharge-charge cycles.

Lithium: 350.

If you live in extremely cold regions, Lithium perfoms a bit bettet.

If you want to charge ?a pack?and leave it un-used for six months, Lithium will hold its charge longer than NiMH.

I do not understand hams' blind infatuation with Lithium chemistries for HTs.
--
Clint Bradford K6LCS
http//www.work-sat.com
 

On Sun, Feb 19, 2023 at 06:52 PM, Clint Bradford wrote:
NiMh packs, properly maintained: 1,000 discharge-charge cycles.

Lithium: 350.
Hello Clint

Please read these pages or reports:

A123Systems (now NEC):
https://web.archive.org/web/20081003130605/http://www.rc-netbutik.dk/getdoc.asp?id=100&md5hash=9810C237586CF6B4325753101E37DAE1
Quote: "...
Curent test projecting excellent calendar life: 17% impedance growth and 23% capacity loss in 15 [fifteen!] years at 100% SOC[State-of-Charge], 60 deg. C
...
[ side 6: ]
Thermal runaway comparison A123 versus mixed oxides and manganese spinel
...
[ side 7: ]
Thermal runaway comparison A closer look
...
Note the consistent, low-rate ramping of A123’s temperature, indicating no thermal runaway
…"


Press two times on "Thousands of Low Rate Cycles":
26650-M1-cell has now reached ca. 7.300 100% Depth-of-Discharge (DOD)! But the capacity has only fallen to 80% of it start capacity.

SANDIA REPORT
SAND2008-5583
Unlimited Release
Printed September 2008
Selected Test Results from the LiFeBatt
Iron Phosphate Li-ion Battery
Thomas D. Hund and David Ingersoll
Prepared by
Sandia National Laboratories
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87185 and Livermore, California:
Quote: "...
Test results have indicated that the LiFeBatt battery technology can function up to a 10C discharge rate with minimal energy loss compared to the 1 h discharged rate (1C).?
...
The majority of the capacity loss occurred during the initial [!] 2,000 cycles, so it is projected that the LiFeBatt should PSOC cycle well beyond 8,394 cycles with less than 20% capacity loss.
...
[See graph pdf-page 23]
[ Read: 48% kapacity available at -30°C. ]
[ Read: 65% kapacity available at -20°C. ]
[ Read: 74% kapacity available at 0°C.? ]
....
3.8 Over Voltage/Charge Abuse Test
In Figure 16 the events in an over charge/voltage abuse test are documented. Initially, as expected, the cell voltage increases quickly while being charged at 10 A, but then slowly increases after 4.7 V. The cell voltage slowly increases for about 30 minutes while the cell temperature continues to slowly rise to about 100 °C at which time cell voltage spikes to the maximum value of 12 V. At about 110 °C the cell vents liquid electrolyte without any fire or sparks and then open-circuits at 116 °C. After open-circuiting and a loss of electrolyte, the cell looses all voltage at 120 °C. The data acquisition shuts down due to a no voltage condition, but temperature is manually monitored until the cell reaches its maximum value at 160 °C about 20 minutes after the cell open-circuited.
…"


11 March 2009 Lithium batteries charge ahead.
Researchers demonstrate cells that can power up in seconds:

Quote: "...
That seemed to be the case for lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4), a material that is used in the cathode of a small number of commercial batteries. But when Ceder and Kang did some calculations, they saw that the compound could theoretically do much better. Its crystal structure creates "perfectly sized tunnels for lithium to move through", says Ceder. "We saw that we could reach ridiculously fast charging rates."
...
The authors helped the ions by coating the surface of the cathode with a thin layer of lithium phosphate glass, which is known to be an excellent lithium conductor. Testing their newly-coated cathode, they found that they could charge and discharge it in as little as 9 seconds.
..."
 

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One matter is that iron phosphate is not typically used in HT batteries.?

-------- Original message --------
From: glennmhdk <glenn.mh.dk@...>
Date: 2/19/23 1:21 PM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [Yaesu-FT-60] Nickel-Based Batteries [consider LiFePO4 accumulator]

On Sun, Feb 19, 2023 at 06:52 PM, Clint Bradford wrote:
NiMh packs, properly maintained: 1,000 discharge-charge cycles.

Lithium: 350.
Hello Clint

Please read these pages or reports:

A123Systems (now NEC):
https://web.archive.org/web/20081003130605/http://www.rc-netbutik.dk/getdoc.asp?id=100&md5hash=9810C237586CF6B4325753101E37DAE1
Quote: "...
Curent test projecting excellent calendar life: 17% impedance growth and 23% capacity loss in 15 [fifteen!] years at 100% SOC[State-of-Charge], 60 deg. C
...
[ side 6: ]
Thermal runaway comparison A123 versus mixed oxides and manganese spinel
...
[ side 7: ]
Thermal runaway comparison A closer look
...
Note the consistent, low-rate ramping of A123’s temperature, indicating no thermal runaway
…"


Press two times on "Thousands of Low Rate Cycles":
26650-M1-cell has now reached ca. 7.300 100% Depth-of-Discharge (DOD)! But the capacity has only fallen to 80% of it start capacity.

SANDIA REPORT
SAND2008-5583
Unlimited Release
Printed September 2008
Selected Test Results from the LiFeBatt
Iron Phosphate Li-ion Battery
Thomas D. Hund and David Ingersoll
Prepared by
Sandia National Laboratories
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87185 and Livermore, California:
Quote: "...
Test results have indicated that the LiFeBatt battery technology can function up to a 10C discharge rate with minimal energy loss compared to the 1 h discharged rate (1C).?
...
The majority of the capacity loss occurred during the initial [!] 2,000 cycles, so it is projected that the LiFeBatt should PSOC cycle well beyond 8,394 cycles with less than 20% capacity loss.
...
[See graph pdf-page 23]
[ Read: 48% kapacity available at -30°C. ]
[ Read: 65% kapacity available at -20°C. ]
[ Read: 74% kapacity available at 0°C.? ]
....
3.8 Over Voltage/Charge Abuse Test
In Figure 16 the events in an over charge/voltage abuse test are documented. Initially, as expected, the cell voltage increases quickly while being charged at 10 A, but then slowly increases after 4.7 V. The cell voltage slowly increases for about 30 minutes while the cell temperature continues to slowly rise to about 100 °C at which time cell voltage spikes to the maximum value of 12 V. At about 110 °C the cell vents liquid electrolyte without any fire or sparks and then open-circuits at 116 °C. After open-circuiting and a loss of electrolyte, the cell looses all voltage at 120 °C. The data acquisition shuts down due to a no voltage condition, but temperature is manually monitored until the cell reaches its maximum value at 160 °C about 20 minutes after the cell open-circuited.
…"


11 March 2009 Lithium batteries charge ahead.
Researchers demonstrate cells that can power up in seconds:

Quote: "...
That seemed to be the case for lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4), a material that is used in the cathode of a small number of commercial batteries. But when Ceder and Kang did some calculations, they saw that the compound could theoretically do much better. Its crystal structure creates "perfectly sized tunnels for lithium to move through", says Ceder. "We saw that we could reach ridiculously fast charging rates."
...
The authors helped the ions by coating the surface of the cathode with a thin layer of lithium phosphate glass, which is known to be an excellent lithium conductor. Testing their newly-coated cathode, they found that they could charge and discharge it in as little as 9 seconds.
..."

 

The book, batteries in a portable world, from the Cadex corporation is the definitive reference work if you're interested in portable power.


cadex.com

--
Clint Bradford K6LCS
http//www.work-sat.com
 
Edited

Hi Clint

A book written before 1997 is too old to mention or appreciate LiFePO4 accumulators.

Note: LiFePO4 = LFP = LiFe


Quote: "...
As of September 2022, LFP type battery market share for EV's reached 31%, and of that, 68% was from Tesla and Chinese EV maker BYD production alone. currently hold a near monopoly of LFP battery type production, however, with patents having started to expire in 2022 and the increased demand for cheaper EV batteries, LFP type production is expected to rise further to surpass type batteries in 2028.
...
Notably, the energy density of Panasonic’s “2170” NCA batteries used in 2020 in Tesla’s Model 3 is around 260 Wh/kg, which is 70% of its "pure chemicals" value.
...
  • Cycle life from 2,700 to more than 10,000 cycles depending on conditions.
...
LFP chemistry offers a considerably longer than other lithium-ion chemistries. Under most conditions it supports more than 3,000 cycles, and under optimal conditions it supports more than 10,000 cycles.
...

pioneered LFP home storage batteries for reasons of cost and fire safety, although the market remains split among competing chemistries. Though lower energy density compared to other lithium chemistries adds mass and volume, both may be more tolerable in a static application. In 2021, there were several suppliers to the home end user market, including SonnenBatterie and . continues to use NMC batteries in its home energy storage products, but in 2021 switched to LFP for its utility-scale battery product. According to EnergySage the most frequently quoted home energy storage battery brand in the U.S. is Enphase, which in 2021 surpassed and .

..."
 

4th Editoon of the book was written in 2017.

Oh - and this is not the Tesla battery group.?
--
Clint Bradford K6LCS
http//www.work-sat.com
 

Ford has also seen the LFP / LiFePO4 light:


Feb 13, 2023, Ford Taps Michigan for New LFP Battery Plant; New Battery Chemistry Offers Customers Value, Durability, Fast Charging, Creates 2,500 More New American Jobs:
https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2023/02/13/ford-taps-michigan-for-new-lfp-battery-plant--new-battery-chemis.html
Quote: "...
* Ford is the first automaker to commit to build both nickel cobalt manganese (NCM) and lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries in the U.S., helping America’s No. 2 EV company in 2022 bring EVs to more customers and diversify its U.S. supply chain
...
* Adding LFP batteries to Ford’s EV lineup this year – starting with Mustang Mach-E – and backing a U.S. LFP battery plant are key parts of the company’s Ford+ plan; this helps Ford scale more quickly, making EVs more accessible and affordable for customers
* LFP batteries are exceptionally durable using fewer high-demand, high-cost materials and will help power a variety of Ford’s next-generation of EV passenger vehicles and pickups; new LFP plant will add approximately 35 gigawatt hours (GWh) of LFP battery capacity
..."
 

With very few exceptions, automobiles are not amateur radio HTs.

There is quite a bit of difference between what electrical requirements are necessary for?
running an automobile versus operating an HT.

--
Clint Bradford K6LCS
http//www.work-sat.com

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