Hi,
thanks to all for all replies and effort to help. Thanks to Peter, OM4AEI I ordered the genuine SBH-13 cradle so it should be ok to charging it together with proper and trusty wall adapter or PSU.?
Now I am thinking if there is chance to charge the battery in radio using the DC-IN socket directly ( to avoid often removing radio from leather case cos of charging) as it is possible in EU models (FT-60E).
I know that it was re-designed after years in US models to make it impossible …but is there some known mod??No big issue just investigating around.
Best regards,
73 - Petr, OK1RP
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Why did you change to Li-ion?
Not for longevity: NiMH will last 2-3 times as many discharge-charge cycles as Li-ion.
Do you live in extreme cold areas? Li-ion does perform better in frigid cold compared to NiMH.
The only other real benefit of Li-ion is that it will homd its charge a little longer than NiMH. Personally, though, Indon't charge up HTs and then not use them for six
months.
--
Clint Bradford K6LCS
http//www.work-sat.com
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I changed to Li-ion cells so I don't need the original Yaesu charger. I'll sell it for $30 + postage from Japan. JS6TMW
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Hi Dale,
I agree, I certainly don't do it that way.? But some sales material for "smart chargers" describe this method.? I just use a power supply regulated to not exceed 1.35 or 1.4V per cell and a current limit at about C/10 or C/5.? I include a small resistor between the supply and the battery so that it doesn't apply full current all the way to the end voltage. This doesn't give the fastest charge, but it works and avoids battery damage.
Cheers,
Halden
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Why don't you get the real stuff???
I got one myself and works a treat.
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I recently purchased a NOS drop in FT-60 charger off ebay and am very happy with it. Part numbers are correct and with shipping it was about $25.?
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Halden,
Measuring current draw and voltage increase are not how you terminate a charge cycle?on a NiMH battery!
Hi Petr,
I think your chance of success is high.? The Yaesu-branded ones are more expensive because they can be.? NiMH batteries are not necessarily complicated to charge, but sellers of expensive chargers will try to obfuscate that to gain market share.? The part that is complicated is the lights that tell you if it's fully charged.? They have to light up when the charge current is low or zero and the battery is at its maximum charge voltage.? Some might sense that the rate of voltage increase with charge current rises.? That requires a circuit or a 1-USD computer chip.? If you don't need those lights, or can read a voltmeter, you can save some money.? Just make sure that the charge rate is not too high and that the end-of-charge voltage is correct.? Measure these the first time you use the charger.? If it's not right, then substitute a voltage regulated, constant current power supply for the wallwart power supply that came with your charger.? PCB buck converters with such limiting and regulation are available on the internet for a few USDs.
Cheers,
Halden VE7UTS
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Very little of Halden's post is accurate.
--
Clint Bradford K6LCS
http//www.work-sat.com
|
Hi Petr,
I think your chance of success is high.? The Yaesu-branded ones are more expensive because they can be.? NiMH batteries are not necessarily complicated to charge, but sellers of expensive chargers will try to obfuscate that to gain market share.? The part that is complicated is the lights that tell you if it's fully charged.? They have to light up when the charge current is low or zero and the battery is at its maximum charge voltage.? Some might sense that the rate of voltage increase with charge current rises.? That requires a circuit or a 1-USD computer chip.? If you don't need those lights, or can read a voltmeter, you can save some money.? Just make sure that the charge rate is not too high and that the end-of-charge voltage is correct.? Measure these the first time you use the charger.? If it's not right, then substitute a voltage regulated, constant current power supply for the wallwart power supply that came with your charger.? PCB buck converters with such limiting and regulation are available on the internet for a few USDs.
Cheers,
Halden VE7UTS
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Use only a genuine Yaesu charging dock and not any Third party charging solutions.
NiMh battery chemistry is quite tricky to charge properly, it requires the correct charge termination method and cheap chargers cannot do this.
It is quite easy to overcharge a NiMh battery which will drastically reduce its longevity.
Even charging the battery through the radio using the DC in jack can be risky as it could be overcharged due to it having an extremely basic charging circuitry and having no cut off, to do that safely without reducing the lifetime of the battery you would need to know how much charge is in the battery and time how long you need to charge it for,
I use a Yaesu CD-47 drop in cradle for my FT-60 and VX-170, these should be still available.?
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I recommend you get a Yaesu charger if you can still order one. A lot of chepo stuff is that way for a reason. Lack of voltage regulation, cheap parts, etc
73 Richard W4MCD?
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I would not trust a $15 charger.
--
Clint Bradford K6LCS
http//www.work-sat.com
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Hi folks,
I am returning to the FT-60 after many years.
A few years ago, I bought and successfully used an FT-60R, then I gave it to my dad (it is still working like champ for him) and now I bought my own.
(Ordered used one on eBay yesterday)
I would like to check with you here > is it safe to use the Chinese copy NC-77C like this in the link from eBay?
I do not want to hurt the radio shortly after arrival...
Thanks,
Petr, OK1RP
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Re: Nickel-Based Batteries [consider LiFePO4 accumulator]
With very few exceptions, automobiles are not amateur radio HTs.
There is quite a bit of difference between what electrical requirements are necessary for?
running an automobile versus operating an HT.
--
Clint Bradford K6LCS
http//www.work-sat.com
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Re: Nickel-Based Batteries [consider LiFePO4 accumulator]
Ford has also seen the LFP / LiFePO4 light:
Feb 13, 2023, Ford Taps Michigan for New LFP Battery Plant; New Battery Chemistry Offers Customers Value, Durability, Fast Charging, Creates 2,500 More New American Jobs:
https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2023/02/13/ford-taps-michigan-for-new-lfp-battery-plant--new-battery-chemis.html
Quote: "...
* Ford is the first automaker to commit to build both nickel cobalt manganese (NCM) and lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries in the U.S., helping America’s No. 2 EV company in 2022 bring EVs to more customers and diversify its U.S. supply chain
...
* Adding LFP batteries to Ford’s EV lineup this year – starting with Mustang Mach-E – and backing a U.S. LFP battery plant are key parts of the company’s Ford+ plan; this helps Ford scale more quickly, making EVs more accessible and affordable for customers
* LFP batteries are exceptionally durable using fewer high-demand, high-cost materials and will help power a variety of Ford’s next-generation of EV passenger vehicles and pickups; new LFP plant will add approximately 35 gigawatt hours (GWh) of LFP battery capacity
..."
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Re: Nickel-Based Batteries [consider LiFePO4 accumulator]
4th Editoon of the book was written in 2017.
Oh - and this is not the Tesla battery group.?
--
Clint Bradford K6LCS
http//www.work-sat.com
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Re: Nickel-Based Batteries [consider LiFePO4 accumulator]
Hi Clint A book written before 1997 is too old to mention or appreciate LiFePO4 accumulators. Note: LiFePO4 = LFP = LiFe Quote: "... As of September 2022, LFP type battery market share for EV's reached 31%, and of that, 68% was from Tesla and Chinese EV maker BYD production alone. currently hold a near monopoly of LFP battery type production, however, with patents having started to expire in 2022 and the increased demand for cheaper EV batteries, LFP type production is expected to rise further to surpass type batteries in 2028.
...
Notably, the energy density of Panasonic’s “2170” NCA batteries used in 2020 in Tesla’s Model 3 is around 260 Wh/kg, which is 70% of its "pure chemicals" value. ...
- Cycle life from 2,700 to more than 10,000 cycles depending on conditions.
... LFP chemistry offers a considerably longer than other lithium-ion chemistries. Under most conditions it supports more than 3,000 cycles, and under optimal conditions it supports more than 10,000 cycles. ...
pioneered LFP home storage batteries for reasons of cost and fire safety, although the market remains split among competing chemistries. Though lower energy density compared to other lithium chemistries adds mass and volume, both may be more tolerable in a static application. In 2021, there were several suppliers to the home end user market, including SonnenBatterie and . continues to use NMC batteries in its home energy storage products, but in 2021 switched to LFP for its utility-scale battery product. According to EnergySage the most frequently quoted home energy storage battery brand in the U.S. is Enphase, which in 2021 surpassed and .
..."
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Re: Nickel-Based Batteries [consider LiFePO4 accumulator]
The book, batteries in a portable world, from the Cadex corporation is the definitive reference work if you're interested in portable power.
cadex.com
--
Clint Bradford K6LCS
http//www.work-sat.com
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Re: Nickel-Based Batteries [consider LiFePO4 accumulator]
One matter is that iron phosphate is not typically used in HT batteries.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message -------- From: glennmhdk <glenn.mh.dk@...> Date: 2/19/23 1:21 PM (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [Yaesu-FT-60] Nickel-Based Batteries [consider LiFePO4 accumulator]
On Sun, Feb 19, 2023 at 06:52 PM, Clint Bradford wrote:
NiMh packs, properly maintained: 1,000 discharge-charge cycles.
Lithium: 350.
Hello Clint Please read these pages or reports: A123Systems (now NEC): https://web.archive.org/web/20081003130605/http://www.rc-netbutik.dk/getdoc.asp?id=100&md5hash=9810C237586CF6B4325753101E37DAE1
Quote: "...
Curent test projecting excellent calendar life: 17% impedance growth and 23% capacity loss in 15 [fifteen!] years at 100% SOC[State-of-Charge], 60 deg. C
...
[ side 6: ]
Thermal runaway comparison A123 versus mixed oxides and manganese spinel
...
[ side 7: ]
Thermal runaway comparison A closer look
...
Note the consistent, low-rate ramping of A123’s temperature, indicating no thermal runaway
…"
Press two times on "Thousands of Low Rate Cycles":
26650-M1-cell has now reached ca. 7.300 100% Depth-of-Discharge (DOD)! But the capacity has only fallen to 80% of it start capacity.
SANDIA REPORT
SAND2008-5583
Unlimited Release
Printed September 2008
Selected Test Results from the LiFeBatt
Iron Phosphate Li-ion Battery
Thomas D. Hund and David Ingersoll
Prepared by
Sandia National Laboratories
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87185 and Livermore, California:
Quote: "...
Test results have indicated that the LiFeBatt battery technology can function up to a 10C discharge rate with minimal energy loss compared to the 1 h discharged rate (1C).?
...
The majority of the capacity loss occurred during the initial [!] 2,000 cycles, so it is projected that the LiFeBatt should PSOC cycle well beyond 8,394 cycles with less than 20% capacity loss.
...
[See graph pdf-page 23]
[ Read: 48% kapacity available at -30°C. ]
[ Read: 65% kapacity available at -20°C. ]
[ Read: 74% kapacity available at 0°C.? ]
....
3.8 Over Voltage/Charge Abuse Test
In Figure 16 the events in an over charge/voltage abuse test are documented. Initially, as expected, the cell voltage increases quickly while being charged at 10 A, but then slowly increases after 4.7 V. The cell voltage slowly increases for about 30 minutes while the cell temperature continues to slowly rise to about 100 °C at which time cell voltage spikes to the maximum value of 12 V. At about 110 °C the cell vents liquid electrolyte without any fire or sparks and then open-circuits at 116 °C. After open-circuiting and a loss of electrolyte, the cell looses all voltage at 120 °C. The data acquisition shuts down due to a no voltage condition, but temperature is manually monitored until the cell reaches its maximum value at 160 °C about 20 minutes after the cell open-circuited.
…"
11 March 2009 Lithium batteries charge ahead.Researchers demonstrate cells that can power up in seconds:Quote: "...That seemed to be the case for lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4), a material that is used in the cathode of a small number of commercial batteries. But when Ceder and Kang did some calculations, they saw that the compound could theoretically do much better. Its crystal structure creates "perfectly sized tunnels for lithium to move through", says Ceder. "We saw that we could reach ridiculously fast charging rates."...The authors helped the ions by coating the surface of the cathode with a thin layer of lithium phosphate glass, which is known to be an excellent lithium conductor. Testing their newly-coated cathode, they found that they could charge and discharge it in as little as 9 seconds...."
|
Re: Nickel-Based Batteries [consider LiFePO4 accumulator]
On Sun, Feb 19, 2023 at 06:52 PM, Clint Bradford wrote:
NiMh packs, properly maintained: 1,000 discharge-charge cycles.
Lithium: 350.
Hello Clint Please read these pages or reports: A123Systems (now NEC): https://web.archive.org/web/20081003130605/http://www.rc-netbutik.dk/getdoc.asp?id=100&md5hash=9810C237586CF6B4325753101E37DAE1
Quote: "...
Curent test projecting excellent calendar life: 17% impedance growth and 23% capacity loss in 15 [fifteen!] years at 100% SOC[State-of-Charge], 60 deg. C
...
[ side 6: ]
Thermal runaway comparison A123 versus mixed oxides and manganese spinel
...
[ side 7: ]
Thermal runaway comparison A closer look
...
Note the consistent, low-rate ramping of A123’s temperature, indicating no thermal runaway
…"
Press two times on "Thousands of Low Rate Cycles":
26650-M1-cell has now reached ca. 7.300 100% Depth-of-Discharge (DOD)! But the capacity has only fallen to 80% of it start capacity.
SANDIA REPORT
SAND2008-5583
Unlimited Release
Printed September 2008
Selected Test Results from the LiFeBatt
Iron Phosphate Li-ion Battery
Thomas D. Hund and David Ingersoll
Prepared by
Sandia National Laboratories
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87185 and Livermore, California:
Quote: "...
Test results have indicated that the LiFeBatt battery technology can function up to a 10C discharge rate with minimal energy loss compared to the 1 h discharged rate (1C).?
...
The majority of the capacity loss occurred during the initial [!] 2,000 cycles, so it is projected that the LiFeBatt should PSOC cycle well beyond 8,394 cycles with less than 20% capacity loss.
...
[See graph pdf-page 23]
[ Read: 48% kapacity available at -30°C. ]
[ Read: 65% kapacity available at -20°C. ]
[ Read: 74% kapacity available at 0°C.? ]
....
3.8 Over Voltage/Charge Abuse Test
In Figure 16 the events in an over charge/voltage abuse test are documented. Initially, as expected, the cell voltage increases quickly while being charged at 10 A, but then slowly increases after 4.7 V. The cell voltage slowly increases for about 30 minutes while the cell temperature continues to slowly rise to about 100 °C at which time cell voltage spikes to the maximum value of 12 V. At about 110 °C the cell vents liquid electrolyte without any fire or sparks and then open-circuits at 116 °C. After open-circuiting and a loss of electrolyte, the cell looses all voltage at 120 °C. The data acquisition shuts down due to a no voltage condition, but temperature is manually monitored until the cell reaches its maximum value at 160 °C about 20 minutes after the cell open-circuited.
…"
11 March 2009 Lithium batteries charge ahead.Researchers demonstrate cells that can power up in seconds:Quote: "...That seemed to be the case for lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4), a material that is used in the cathode of a small number of commercial batteries. But when Ceder and Kang did some calculations, they saw that the compound could theoretically do much better. Its crystal structure creates "perfectly sized tunnels for lithium to move through", says Ceder. "We saw that we could reach ridiculously fast charging rates."...The authors helped the ions by coating the surface of the cathode with a thin layer of lithium phosphate glass, which is known to be an excellent lithium conductor. Testing their newly-coated cathode, they found that they could charge and discharge it in as little as 9 seconds...."
|
Clint Bradford
Richard W4MCD in NC