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Amptek SiPIN vs FastSDD - Recommendations?

 

I'm a bit new to the world of XRF and am currently using an old scintillator probe and some NIM modules - but the resolution isn't great.

I've been looking at some Amptek setups on eBay and have been corresponding with GEO and it was recommended that I post this question on the forum:

There are several complete Amptek systems for sale on eBay. (I hope this question doesn't encourage someone to buy them before I do!) I'm trying to understand the tradeoffs.

SiPIN system
  • 25mm SiPIN detector
  • PA230 preamp
  • DP5/PC5 stack for power and pulse processing.
This is one of the systems that Geo posted pictures of in June and July. It would seem that the electronics are current model products.

FastSDD system
  • 25mm Fast SDD - 500um - 0.5mm Be Window
  • PA230 - looks to be an early model of the PA230 Board - Red PCB vs. normal Green/Blue PCB with fewer parts
  • DP5X - looks to be a simpler integrated version of the DP5/PC5 board combo.

I've studied the pictures of the PA boards for which I could find pictures to see how they have evolved over time. I've seen about four different versions, which increase in complexity. But I'm not sure if this is a function of product development over time or that one board may be designed for SiPIN vs SDD.

Anyway, I wonder if anyone has some insight into the tradeoffs between the two complete systems mentioned SiPIN vs FastSDD. One has the obviously better detector (SDD). The other seems to have the better backend electronics (SiPIN) and is cheaper. I'd love to have anyone's expertise if figuring out which may be the better option.

BTW, if anyone is curious, here are some of the patents which seem to show the inner workings of some of the Amptek Systems:
  • US6,587,003B2 - Charge Sensitive Preamplifier with Pulsed Reset Source - the secret sauce in low noise preamplifiers, besides a good FET and OpAmp, is using a pulsed reset instead of a large drain resister, which adds noise. This approach is explained in Amptek's Reset Preamplifier Application Note.
  • US7448802 - Integrated X-Ray Source Module - The X-ray source that Amptek sells appears to be made by Newton Scientific - this is the schematic of the inner electronics which could be useful for someone trying to repair one of these units. The reference for U10 which is the main controller IC is conspicuously absent - but it looks to be the UC1872/2872/3872 made by Unitrode
  • US7949099 - Compact High Voltage X Ray Source - you can also look at how the tubes themselves are put together.
NOTE: These designs are still under patent protect so I would not recommend that someone actually build any of these - but they could be useful for repair.

Thanks so much for your help.

All the best,
Soren
 

Hi Soren,

I'll just relate my experience with the Amptek SiPIN that I have been using for a year or so.? It is great for helping me identify minerals.? Even if I had the budget for an SDD I doubt I would go that way.

You on the other hand may have an application where the SDD would have serious advantages.? If you can justify the expense then by all means, go for it.

You might give us an idea of your application.? If you don't have anything specific and are just interested in learning about XRF then I would go with the Amptek SiPIN.

Charles


On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 10:41 AM Soren <justinhuber@...> wrote:
I'm a bit new to the world of XRF and am currently using an old scintillator probe and some NIM modules - but the resolution isn't great.

I've been looking at some Amptek setups on eBay and have been corresponding with GEO and it was recommended that I post this question on the forum:

There are several complete Amptek systems for sale on eBay. (I hope this question doesn't encourage someone to buy them before I do!) I'm trying to understand the tradeoffs.

SiPIN system
  • 25mm SiPIN detector
  • PA230 preamp
  • DP5/PC5 stack for power and pulse processing.
This is one of the systems that Geo posted pictures of in June and July. It would seem that the electronics are current model products.

FastSDD system
  • 25mm Fast SDD - 500um - 0.5mm Be Window
  • PA230 - looks to be an early model of the PA230 Board - Red PCB vs. normal Green/Blue PCB with fewer parts
  • DP5X - looks to be a simpler integrated version of the DP5/PC5 board combo.

I've studied the pictures of the PA boards for which I could find pictures to see how they have evolved over time. I've seen about four different versions, which increase in complexity. But I'm not sure if this is a function of product development over time or that one board may be designed for SiPIN vs SDD.

Anyway, I wonder if anyone has some insight into the tradeoffs between the two complete systems mentioned SiPIN vs FastSDD. One has the obviously better detector (SDD). The other seems to have the better backend electronics (SiPIN) and is cheaper. I'd love to have anyone's expertise if figuring out which may be the better option.

BTW, if anyone is curious, here are some of the patents which seem to show the inner workings of some of the Amptek Systems:
  • US6,587,003B2 - Charge Sensitive Preamplifier with Pulsed Reset Source - the secret sauce in low noise preamplifiers, besides a good FET and OpAmp, is using a pulsed reset instead of a large drain resister, which adds noise. This approach is explained in Amptek's Reset Preamplifier Application Note.
  • US7448802 - Integrated X-Ray Source Module - The X-ray source that Amptek sells appears to be made by Newton Scientific - this is the schematic of the inner electronics which could be useful for someone trying to repair one of these units. The reference for U10 which is the main controller IC is conspicuously absent - but it looks to be the UC1872/2872/3872 made by Unitrode
  • US7949099 - Compact High Voltage X Ray Source - you can also look at how the tubes themselves are put together.
NOTE: These designs are still under patent protect so I would not recommend that someone actually build any of these - but they could be useful for repair.

Thanks so much for your help.

All the best,
Soren
 

I agree with Charles.

The FAST-SDD has a few advantages that could come in handy later on. "Fast" means it can gather a tremendous # of counts in a burst. This would be handy if you were looking above 50 keV for some XRF, say of heavy rare earths. Unfortunately most XRF generators max out at 50keV so to get 100keV, a totally different type of generator is used, and they don't stay on for very long, but can be much more powerful. This is where FAST SDD shines. ALL SDD's have slightly better resolution and most will go all the way down to 1 to 2 keV. They go lower due to thinner entrance windows which = more fragile.

DP5X is not a stack, but a single stripped down board.?

If you want to reproduce what you've seen here with our Si-PINs, then the choice is clear.

Please go back to the first message on this board if you have not done so, and follow our progress and improvements with this remarkable setup. Keep your Scintillator outfit, you'll need it to verify energies above 50- with good sensitivity.

Just recently I started running my Si-PIN from 0-100, but that's because of working with uranium and wanting to see the ~63 and 93 keV peaks. It's not sensitive up there but if you can be patient for a signal to build up, it is still accurate like crazy on them.

Geo
 

Charles,

Thank. At this point I don't have many specific applications. I collect elements and minerals and it was be nice to analyze them for purity. I also have some artistic/archeological materials that would be nice to analyze - pigments, glass, etc. I imagine the SiPIN would be fine for that.?

I don't really care about the Fast in FastSDD as I don't have an sources that would produce enough cps to mater. The SDD seems appealing for several reasons:?
  • It gets you a little closer to 1keV which means some sensitivity to the lower-Z materials
  • It gives you more resolution for a given sized sensor.?
Given the two currently available options on eBay are a 25mm FastSDD and a 25mm SiPIN the SDD seems the better choice. If it was 25mm SDD vs 6mm SiPIN I think those are comparable. I realize that the DP5X is a stripped down board. It doesn't have a ethernet port and it doesn't have the DAC that gives you a signal output that you could view on an oscilloscope. I don't know how important those features are. The prices of the two are different, but within enough of a ballpark that both are worth considering.

I guess I have three concrete questions:
  1. How much do you lose with with older electronics? Perhaps it's hard to get the FW6 upgrade?
  2. How often does these things come up for sale that it's work waiting for the right setup?
  3. Charles, you mention that you wouldn't go with the SDD, even if price wasn't an issue. Why is that? Is there a downside to the SDD?
Many thanks,
Soren
 

Charles

I just reread you comments - I guess question 3 isn't as relevant...

Also, I see a lot of typos in my response. I really do know how to spell. It seems that some of my keyboard key are not working and spellcheck is working against me.

Best,
Soren
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Soren,

I would agree with Charles on the SiPin detector on the basis of cost vs resolution. The Si-Pins that we see on ebay are 25mm^2 which is the lowest resolution version of these detectors. An SDD has much better resolution and count rate but at a price. A 6mm^2 Si-Pin has about the same resolution as a 25mm^2 SDD but the SDD has a 10x better count rate while maintaining the resolution.? SDD¡¯s are useful in high count rate high resolution situations and excel down in the lower energies and at lower peaking times. At the higher energies where broadening is a factor the two are getting to be comparable.

For a hobbyist application the excitation source is really weak so the count rates are low and a Si-Pin can use a higher peaking time to get better resolution while not worrying low energy noise and about count rate limitations. And the price is much better and does the job needed.

The digital stacks are tailored to the detector at the factory and aren¡¯t interchangeable without a new software flashcode as I understand it, Geo will know more about that.

Dud

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Charles David Young
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 10:54 AM
To: XRF
Subject: Re: [XRF] Amptek SiPIN vs FastSDD - Recommendations?

?

Hi Soren,

?

I'll just relate my experience with the Amptek SiPIN that I have been using for a year or so.? It is great for helping me identify minerals.? Even if I had the budget for an SDD I doubt I would go that way.

?

You on the other hand may have an application where the SDD would have serious advantages.? If you can justify the expense then by all means, go for it.

?

You might give us an idea of your application.? If you don't have anything specific and are just interested in learning about XRF then I would go with the Amptek SiPIN.

?

Charles

?

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 10:41 AM Soren <justinhuber@...> wrote:

I'm a bit new to the world of XRF and am currently using an old scintillator probe and some NIM modules - but the resolution isn't great.

I've been looking at some Amptek setups on eBay and have been corresponding with GEO and it was recommended that I post this question on the forum:

There are several complete Amptek systems for sale on eBay. (I hope this question doesn't encourage someone to buy them before I do!) I'm trying to understand the tradeoffs.

SiPIN system

  • 25mm SiPIN detector
  • PA230 preamp
  • DP5/PC5 stack for power and pulse processing.

This is one of the systems that Geo posted pictures of in June and July. It would seem that the electronics are current model products.

FastSDD system

  • 25mm Fast SDD - 500um - 0.5mm Be Window
  • PA230 - looks to be an early model of the PA230 Board - Red PCB vs. normal Green/Blue PCB with fewer parts
  • DP5X - looks to be a simpler integrated version of the DP5/PC5 board combo.


I've studied the pictures of the PA boards for which I could find pictures to see how they have evolved over time. I've seen about four different versions, which increase in complexity. But I'm not sure if this is a function of product development over time or that one board may be designed for SiPIN vs SDD.

Anyway, I wonder if anyone has some insight into the tradeoffs between the two complete systems mentioned SiPIN vs FastSDD. One has the obviously better detector (SDD). The other seems to have the better backend electronics (SiPIN) and is cheaper. I'd love to have anyone's expertise if figuring out which may be the better option.

BTW, if anyone is curious, here are some of the patents which seem to show the inner workings of some of the Amptek Systems:

  • US6,587,003B2 - Charge Sensitive Preamplifier with Pulsed Reset Source - the secret sauce in low noise preamplifiers, besides a good FET and OpAmp, is using a pulsed reset instead of a large drain resister, which adds noise. This approach is explained in Amptek's Reset Preamplifier Application Note.
  • US7448802 - Integrated X-Ray Source Module - The X-ray source that Amptek sells appears to be made by Newton Scientific - this is the schematic of the inner electronics which could be useful for someone trying to repair one of these units. The reference for U10 which is the main controller IC is conspicuously absent - but it looks to be the UC1872/2872/3872 made by Unitrode
  • US7949099 - Compact High Voltage X Ray Source - you can also look at how the tubes themselves are put together.

NOTE: These designs are still under patent protect so I would not recommend that someone actually build any of these - but they could be useful for repair.

Thanks so much for your help.

All the best,
Soren
taray singh
 

Hi Soren
Welcome to this group
Here is file comparing xrf detectors
With fine tuning of Si Pin with long count rates,gains ,peaking time ,geometry and proper sampling techniques one can go beyond some of the manufacturer¡¯s limitations.
Taray

Si pin.pdf
Si pin.pdf

 

Hi George,
I recently joined the group, so sorry if I am being a bit dense here.
I am having trouble finding?

"the first message on this board"? ?

I have read through some initial? posts circa 2018? ?post#1 RE: Technical Terms
Are you talking about a different group of post that shows pictures of a bud box enclosure housing an OEM sensor package and dp5?

Love the content on here. so glad I stumbled?across?your group.

Warm regards
Michael
 

Hi Michael. Welcome!

The "Topics" are groupings of messages on a single topic. Yes the first posts were about the jargon we use and definitions etc.

Geo

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Sears <msears@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, 03 Dec 2020 16:03:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [XRF] Amptek SiPIN vs FastSDD - Recommendations?

Hi George,
I recently joined the group, so sorry if I am being a bit dense here.
I am having trouble finding?

"the first message on this board"? ?

I have read through some initial? posts circa 2018? ?post#1 RE: Technical Terms
Are you talking about a different group of post that shows pictures of a bud box enclosure housing an OEM sensor package and dp5?

Love the content on here. so glad I stumbled?across?your group.

Warm regards
Michael

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