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Si-PIN Detector PEAKING-TIME-TEST


 

On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 01:11 PM, Dude wrote:

Geo,

The purpose of the background runs was to compare the 4.8 to the 32 usec peaking time with changing nothing else ¨C everything the same between the 2 runs. Set up the same, settings the same, just change the peaking time. We want to see the difference in low energy noise between the two. ?Try re-running it with identical setups.

Dud

That's a great suggestion Dudley, here you go:

?

This testing was overdue. When setting up my first Si-PIN and deciding upon my personal "standard" setup, there was not much info available out there on the peaking time selection.
Here we have a complete series of peaking time changes with no other change. The unit has been on and operating for several days making other tests, when those were finished the Peaking Time test series was done with a fresh calibration.
Note the initial AmX1 calibration was done at the shortest peaking time. As peaking time increased, there was incremental upwards shift in calibration, which settled out at 4.8us peaking time and remained stable for the rest of the series. That's why the calibration @59.5 is approx. 1keV off at the higher peaking times, but the instructions called for "no other changes".

A good way to view these files in in Amptek DPPMCA program, free on their website.

Load several or all of the .mca files into the Spectra List, then page through them singly or compare them to any other scan in the series using the "SHOW/HIDE" controls.

What I am particularly looking at is the separation of the Lb and Lg sub-shell peaks and silicon escape peaks.

Geo

?

?

18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_0.8us2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_0.8us2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_1.6us2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_1.6us2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_2.4us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_2.4us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_3.2us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_3.2us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_4.0us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_4.0us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_4.8us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_4.8us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_5.6us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_5.6us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_6.4us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_6.4us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_8us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_8us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_9.6us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_9.6us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_11.2us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_11.2us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_12.8us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_12.8us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_16.0us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_16.0us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_19.2us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_19.2us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_22.4us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_22.4us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_25.6us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_25.6us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_32.0us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_32.0us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_38.4us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_38.4us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_44.8us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_44.8us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_51.2us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_51.2us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_64.0us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_64.0us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_76.8us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_76.8us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_89.6us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_89.6us-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_102.4us-LAST-600s-2OCT2020.mca
18174-Si-PIN-Peaking_102.4us-LAST-600s-2OCT2020.mca


 

First real run with a longer peaking time, nearly everything else the same.
This is U L X-Rays, one of my current interests.
To my eye, the peaks are taller for the same test-time and maybe a little better defined. For sure the PEAK-SEARCH routine likes the change and can identify the peaks with no hesitation. To take advantage of the better resolution from the longer peak time (9.6us vs 4.8 for previous tests), the # of channels was doubled to 2k.

Geo

U_L-X-Rays-Si-PIN_9.6usPT-22OCT2020_53ks.png


 

Geo,

Doubling the # channels gives you better definition as well.? Could you do a test with 2048 channels and 4.8 uS peak time?? If you provide both mca files they could be compared.

Charles


On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 7:40 AM <GEOelectronics@...> wrote:
First real run with a longer peaking time, nearly everything else the same.
This is U L X-Rays, one of my current interests.
To my eye, the peaks are taller for the same test-time and maybe a little better defined. For sure the PEAK-SEARCH routine likes the change and can identify the peaks with no hesitation. To take advantage of the better resolution from the longer peak time (9.6us vs 4.8 for previous tests), the # of channels was doubled to 2k.

Geo

U_L-X-Rays-Si-PIN_9.6usPT-22OCT2020_53ks.png


 

Yes I will be happy too, or maybe already in the archives- will check.

Geo


From: "Charles David Young" <charlesdavidyoung@...>
To: "XRF" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 10:33:53 AM
Subject: Re: [XRF] Si-PIN Detector PEAKING-TIME-TEST

Geo,

Doubling the # channels gives you better definition as well.? Could you do a test with 2048 channels and 4.8 uS peak time?? If you provide both mca files they could be compared.

Charles

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 7:40 AM <GEOelectronics@...> wrote:
First real run with a longer peaking time, nearly everything else the same.
This is U L X-Rays, one of my current interests.
To my eye, the peaks are taller for the same test-time and maybe a little better defined. For sure the PEAK-SEARCH routine likes the change and can identify the peaks with no hesitation. To take advantage of the better resolution from the longer peak time (9.6us vs 4.8 for previous tests), the # of channels was doubled to 2k.

Geo

U_L-X-Rays-Si-PIN_9.6usPT-22OCT2020_53ks.png



 

Charles, have you looked at the multiple .mca files in the first post of this thread?

You can load 10 of them by : FILE:OPEN

then scroll through them.

Since most of us are analyzing by eye, let your eye see the differences.

Geo


 

This next scan is same U L X-Rays being analyzed @ 19.2us peaking time, from a scan only 41 minutes long.

U_L-X-Rays-Si-PIN_19.2usPT-22OCT2020_53ksVs2.5ks-Peak-Search.png


 

So dumb question.? Why does increasing peak time increase counts?

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 8:51 AM <GEOelectronics@...> wrote:
This next scan is same U L X-Rays being analyzed @ 19.2us peaking time, from a scan only 41 minutes long.

U_L-X-Rays-Si-PIN_19.2usPT-22OCT2020_53ksVs2.5ks-Peak-Search.png


 

I don't know why Charles. That's more a question to be answered by a digital expert.

George Dowell
Geo



From: "Charles David Young" <charlesdavidyoung@...>
To: "XRF" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 10:56:10 AM
Subject: Re: [XRF] Si-PIN Detector PEAKING-TIME-TEST

So dumb question.? Why does increasing peak time increase counts?

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 8:51 AM <GEOelectronics@...> wrote:
This next scan is same U L X-Rays being analyzed @ 19.2us peaking time, from a scan only 41 minutes long.

U_L-X-Rays-Si-PIN_19.2usPT-22OCT2020_53ksVs2.5ks-Peak-Search.png



 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Geo,

Did you auto reset the fast and slow thresholds for the 9.6 usec count? Note the input count well exceeds your total count meaning there is still a lot of low energy noise that needs to be taken care of. Going to the lower 4.8 usec is going to make matters worse in resolution and noise. A 2048 conversion gain is the sweet spot. Use shorter peaking time for high count rate, longer for low count rate and better resolution. But you need do need to reset your filters when you change parameters.

Dud

?

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Charles David Young
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 8:34 AM
To: XRF
Subject: Re: [XRF] Si-PIN Detector PEAKING-TIME-TEST

?

Geo,

?

Doubling the # channels gives you better definition as well.? Could you do a test with 2048 channels and 4.8 uS peak time?? If you provide both mca files they could be compared.

?

Charles

?

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 7:40 AM <GEOelectronics@...> wrote:

First real run with a longer peaking time, nearly everything else the same.
This is U L X-Rays, one of my current interests.
To my eye, the peaks are taller for the same test-time and maybe a little better defined. For sure the PEAK-SEARCH routine likes the change and can identify the peaks with no hesitation. To take advantage of the better resolution from the longer peak time (9.6us vs 4.8 for previous tests), the # of channels was doubled to 2k.

Geo

U_L-X-Rays-Si-PIN_9.6usPT-22OCT2020_53ks.png


 

No not auto resetting LLD etc. I believe you must remove the source to do that. I'll include that on the way back down from 25.6 us which to my eye is the sweet spot.

This series is looking at gross differences among 4.8/9.6/19.2 and 25.6 us.

Geo



From: "DFEMER" <dfemer@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 12:12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [XRF] Si-PIN Detector PEAKING-TIME-TEST

Geo,

Did you auto reset the fast and slow thresholds for the 9.6 usec count? Note the input count well exceeds your total count meaning there is still a lot of low energy noise that needs to be taken care of. Going to the lower 4.8 usec is going to make matters worse in resolution and noise. A 2048 conversion gain is the sweet spot. Use shorter peaking time for high count rate, longer for low count rate and better resolution. But you need do need to reset your filters when you change parameters.

Dud

?

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Charles David Young
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 8:34 AM
To: XRF
Subject: Re: [XRF] Si-PIN Detector PEAKING-TIME-TEST

?

Geo,

?

Doubling the # channels gives you better definition as well.? Could you do a test with 2048 channels and 4.8 uS peak time?? If you provide both mca files they could be compared.

?

Charles

?

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 7:40 AM <GEOelectronics@...> wrote:

First real run with a longer peaking time, nearly everything else the same.
This is U L X-Rays, one of my current interests.
To my eye, the peaks are taller for the same test-time and maybe a little better defined. For sure the PEAK-SEARCH routine likes the change and can identify the peaks with no hesitation. To take advantage of the better resolution from the longer peak time (9.6us vs 4.8 for previous tests), the # of channels was doubled to 2k.

Geo

U_L-X-Rays-Si-PIN_9.6usPT-22OCT2020_53ks.png



 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Run it for the same time change only one variable at a time

Dud

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of GEOelectronics@...
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 8:52 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Si-PIN Detector PEAKING-TIME-TEST

?

This next scan is same U L X-Rays being analyzed @ 19.2us peaking time, from a scan only 41 minutes long.

U_L-X-Rays-Si-PIN_19.2usPT-22OCT2020_53ksVs2.5ks-Peak-Search.png


 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Geo / Charles,

Changing only the peaking time is not going to give you a good idea of what an optimal setting should be. These things interact with each other and need to be set together, The noise base line and valid count line are set with the fast and slow thresholds, when you change peaking time or anything else you need to reevaluate all these settings. The low energy noise (<2keV) we commonly see in these spectra are due to not having properly set all these parameters together.

You can see this with the Total count vs Input count. Input - Total = count noise. That number is minimized using the fast and slow threshold settings with a given Peaking Time. If you have a high count rate use a shorter peaking time .Don¡¯t kid yourself you¡¯ll that you¡¯ll see anything useful <1.e keV without a gas flow so don¡¯t sweat the small stuff when setting this up but make sure the noise down there has been cut off as its going to affect your count time to get a good peak.? ?

The 19.2 usec PT has an input rate of 9.28 valid cps using 3705 counts out of 23,665 while the 9.6 usec PT had only a 4.27 valid cps input rate using only 90,456 counts out of 227,418 noise counts. A shorter PT means more noise and lower resolution.? Noise and pile up are going to lower the number of valid non rejected counts in any given time frame. When noise is minimized by both ?PT and threshold settings this electronic noise is minimized allowing valid counts in a shorter time frame with less noise interference which is slowing you down.

For those using a weak Am source vs a high power X-ray source count time means everything so you need to optimize the PT, set the thresholds, and don¡¯t run anything over a 2048 conversion gain.

Dud

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of GEOelectronics@...
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 10:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Si-PIN Detector PEAKING-TIME-TEST

?

No not auto resetting LLD etc. I believe you must remove the source to do that. I'll include that on the way back down from 25.6 us which to my eye is the sweet spot.

?

This series is looking at gross differences among 4.8/9.6/19.2 and 25.6 us.

?

Geo

?

?


From: "DFEMER" <dfemer@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 12:12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [XRF] Si-PIN Detector PEAKING-TIME-TEST

?

Geo,

Did you auto reset the fast and slow thresholds for the 9.6 usec count? Note the input count well exceeds your total count meaning there is still a lot of low energy noise that needs to be taken care of. Going to the lower 4.8 usec is going to make matters worse in resolution and noise. A 2048 conversion gain is the sweet spot. Use shorter peaking time for high count rate, longer for low count rate and better resolution. But you need do need to reset your filters when you change parameters.

Dud

?

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Charles David Young
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 8:34 AM
To: XRF
Subject: Re: [XRF] Si-PIN Detector PEAKING-TIME-TEST

?

Geo,

?

Doubling the # channels gives you better definition as well.? Could you do a test with 2048 channels and 4.8 uS peak time?? If you provide both mca files they could be compared.

?

Charles

?

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 7:40 AM <GEOelectronics@...> wrote:

First real run with a longer peaking time, nearly everything else the same.
This is U L X-Rays, one of my current interests.
To my eye, the peaks are taller for the same test-time and maybe a little better defined. For sure the PEAK-SEARCH routine likes the change and can identify the peaks with no hesitation. To take advantage of the better resolution from the longer peak time (9.6us vs 4.8 for previous tests), the # of channels was doubled to 2k.

Geo

U_L-X-Rays-Si-PIN_9.6usPT-22OCT2020_53ks.png

?


 

ATTACHED:
,mca for 19.2us Peaking time with same settings as 4.8us PT

.mca for 19.2us Peaking time with new auto tune fast-slow routine run

To auto tube the source must be removed, which is all part of a normal calibration run. The change was not drastic.
During the first run with old settings, I noticed the U-Ma-1 line (3.17keV)? was soon clobbered by the nearby Argon Kb1 line (3.19keV) after some time had gone by, so when reinserting the source in the shielded chamber, it was positioned closer to the sensor, so there was far less ambient air between them. This also changed some of the total counts I'm sure.

Otherwise, both scans look good to my eye and the automatic PEAK-SEARCH seems happy with both versions.

U-L-X-Rays-18174-Si-PIN-19.2PT-NEW-FAST-SLOW-TUNE-22OCT2020.png


 
Edited

Conclusions-

Based on the short tests of each available peaking time settings, in the first post of this topic:

4.8us (what we've been using until now), is adequate and could be retained for general use.
9.6us in my sensor does give less electronic noise on the far left, can benreduced to extinction by
slower peaking times.

For my current investigations, 25.6us showed promise to be optimum, here are pictures of last night's test showing the separation of U L X-Rays from Np L X-Rays, with the enlargement zooming in on the Lg1 lines in particular. With 25.6, perfect separation of the two closely spaced Lg1 lines is achieved.

Some time will be needed to compare the different test data, and beware this was all done with radioactive samples, not exciter XRF

Also brought up in this topic was the fact that the peaking time for especially tube driven XRF might require faster peaking times.

At least for a while my studies will concentrate on 4.8 or 9.6 for tube driven XRF and 25.6us for extremely low level radioactive materials, both at 2048 channels.

Keeping channel #s the same allows for direct comparison of two different tests days or even years apart.

Two attached pictures show the separation between U and Np L peaks, the second pic is all the same data with the U Lg1 expanded for a clearer view.

NOTE- Black outline peaks are from Uranium test- 4 hours. The color filled peaks are done with an Am cal source immediately after the U test was cleared.

Geo

U-L_vs_Np-L_X-Rays-18174-Si-PIN-25.6PT-NEW-FAST-SLOW-TUNE-23OCT2020-notes1.png



U-Lg1_vs_Np-Lg1_X-Rays-18174-Si-PIN-25.6PT-NEW-FAST-SLOW-TUNE-23OCT2020-notes1.png


 

After running the 19.2us peaking time and being satisfied with the tweaking and calibration, here are the results from a and overnight U L X-Ray test and for comparison an old similar test on the same very weakly radioactive sample using 4.8us PT (both in Gamma Spectrum Analyzer mode- not excited XRF)

The differences are subtle but real, with the clarity of large peaks and better separation on smaller peaks going to the slower peaking time.

However in gross analysis, both are very accurate and would probably be equally useful for element identification purposes.
Differences between the scans doesn't translate to a pretty picture, so only .mca's included here.

Geo