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Just for fun I tested both sides of a Li battery.? One side (+) is shiny and engraved and the other side is dull (-).? After doing the shiny side (red) for a couple of hours I started the dull side and unfortunately let it run overnight so the counts are disproportionately high.? However, close inspection of the 2 graphs show that the shiny side has much more Cr than the dull side.? In fact, whatever Cr shows up in the blue graph may actually be coming from the edges of the battery where the shiny side wraps around.
So my question is whether there is an electrical reason for the Cr on the + side or is it purely cosmetic?
Charles
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Probably just more Cr in the alloy used.? Possibly for corrosion resistance.? Or the metal on that side is thicker,? as it's the primary casing of the unit.?
Just for fun I tested both sides of a Li battery.? One side (+) is shiny and engraved and the other side is dull (-).? After doing the shiny side (red) for a couple of hours I started the dull side and unfortunately let it run overnight so the counts are disproportionately high.? However, close inspection of the 2 graphs show that the shiny side has much more Cr than the dull side.? In fact, whatever Cr shows up in the blue graph may actually be coming from the edges of the battery where the shiny side wraps around.
So my question is whether there is an electrical reason for the Cr on the + side or is it purely cosmetic?
Charles
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Interesting question, and I don't know. There very may be electro-chemical reasons, for example 316 stainless has a lot better sodium corrosion resistance than 304 ss.
Just a wild guess but the polarity may have something to do with the choice of alloy.
Intriguing.
Speaking of alloys Charles, try analyzing the metals used in a household incandescent bulb- a tremendous amount of research in materials led to metals with just the right mechanical/physical compatibilities.
Good question, based upon a really good observation.
Geo
----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Andrews <nickjandrews@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 10:59:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [XRF] Li battery shiny vs dull
Probably just more Cr in the alloy used.? Possibly for corrosion resistance.? Or the metal on that side is thicker,? as it's the primary casing of the unit.?
Just for fun I tested both sides of a Li battery.? One side (+) is shiny and engraved and the other side is dull (-).? After doing the shiny side (red) for a couple of hours I started the dull side and unfortunately let it run overnight so the counts are disproportionately high.? However, close inspection of the 2 graphs show that the shiny side has much more Cr than the dull side.? In fact, whatever Cr shows up in the blue graph may actually be coming from the edges of the battery where the shiny side wraps around.
So my question is whether there is an electrical reason for the Cr on the + side or is it purely cosmetic?
Charles
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PS, Charles and all, keep a dead dry cell flashlight battery (the cheap kind). Take it apart for elements for your collection, a few of which also make perfect XRF calibration sources.
Geo
----- Original Message ----- From: Charles David Young <charlesdavidyoung@...> To: [email protected], Mike Loughlin <loughlin3@...> Sent: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 09:36:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [XRF] Li battery shiny vs dull
Just for fun I tested both sides of a Li battery.? One side (+) is shiny and engraved and the other side is dull (-).? After doing the shiny side (red) for a couple of hours I started the dull side and unfortunately let it run overnight so the counts are disproportionately high.? However, close inspection of the 2 graphs show that the shiny side has much more Cr than the dull side.? In fact, whatever Cr shows up in the blue graph may actually be coming from the edges of the battery where the shiny side wraps around.
So my question is whether there is an electrical reason for the Cr on the + side or is it purely cosmetic?
Charles
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A Cr coated anode gives the battery a better discharge capacity
and is more stable during cycling.
Dud
?
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Charles David Young
Sent: Sunday, February 9, 2020 6:37 AM
To: [email protected]; Mike Loughlin
Subject: [XRF] Li battery shiny vs dull
?
Just for fun I tested both sides of a Li battery.? One
side (+) is shiny and engraved and the other side is dull (-).? After
doing the shiny side (red) for a couple of hours I started the dull side and
unfortunately let it run overnight so the counts are disproportionately
high.? However, close inspection of the 2 graphs show that the shiny side
has much more Cr than the dull side.? In fact, whatever Cr shows up in the
blue graph may actually be coming from the edges of the battery where the shiny
side wraps around.
So my question is whether there is an electrical reason for
the Cr on the + side or is it purely cosmetic?
|
That is interesting, Dud.? So why is that the case and why only the anode?
Charles
On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 10:03 AM Dude < dfemer@...> wrote:
A Cr coated anode gives the battery a better discharge capacity
and is more stable during cycling.
Dud
?
?
?
Just for fun I tested both sides of a Li battery.? One
side (+) is shiny and engraved and the other side is dull (-).? After
doing the shiny side (red) for a couple of hours I started the dull side and
unfortunately let it run overnight so the counts are disproportionately
high.? However, close inspection of the 2 graphs show that the shiny side
has much more Cr than the dull side.? In fact, whatever Cr shows up in the
blue graph may actually be coming from the edges of the battery where the shiny
side wraps around.
So my question is whether there is an electrical reason for
the Cr on the + side or is it purely cosmetic?
|
The anode is Li and the Cr ?has a high Li storage capacity.? Did
you see any V or Ti in that shot? They are sometimes used in the Cr coatings.
dud
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Charles David Young
Sent: Sunday, February 9, 2020 9:26 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Li battery shiny vs dull
?
That is interesting, Dud.? So why is that the case and
why only the anode?
?
On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 10:03 AM Dude <dfemer@...> wrote:
A Cr
coated anode gives the battery a better discharge capacity and is more stable
during cycling.
Dud
?
?
?
Just
for fun I tested both sides of a Li battery.? One side (+) is shiny and
engraved and the other side is dull (-).? After doing the shiny side (red)
for a couple of hours I started the dull side and unfortunately let it run
overnight so the counts are disproportionately high.? However, close inspection
of the 2 graphs show that the shiny side has much more Cr than the dull
side.? In fact, whatever Cr shows up in the blue graph may actually be
coming from the edges of the battery where the shiny side wraps around.
So
my question is whether there is an electrical reason for the Cr on the + side
or is it purely cosmetic?
|
That sounds logical Dud, hey on your Kevex stand alone tube, do you know the spot size and the cone angle? The one in my rig here in the counting room seems to have a 16 degree cone- does that sound right?
Geo>K0FF
----- Original Message ----- From: Dude <dfemer@...> To: [email protected], 'Mike Loughlin' <loughlin3@...> Sent: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 12:03:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [XRF] Li battery shiny vs dull
A Cr coated anode gives the battery a better discharge capacity
and is more stable during cycling. Dud ? ? ? Just for fun I tested both sides of a Li battery.? One
side (+) is shiny and engraved and the other side is dull (-).? After
doing the shiny side (red) for a couple of hours I started the dull side and
unfortunately let it run overnight so the counts are disproportionately
high.? However, close inspection of the 2 graphs show that the shiny side
has much more Cr than the dull side.? In fact, whatever Cr shows up in the
blue graph may actually be coming from the edges of the battery where the shiny
side wraps around. So my question is whether there is an electrical reason for
the Cr on the + side or is it purely cosmetic?
|
Those cheap batteries used to have a nice zinc case,? carbon rod and a lot of MnO2.?
The manganese dioxide is a catalyst to decompose hydrogen peroxide into water and O2, which reacts with calcium carbide to make a mixture of O2 and acetylene. Fun to play with but highly flammable.?
The carbon rods make great,? well,? electrodes, for all kinds of things.? Arc lamps,? electrolysis,? etc.
Zinc good for pyrotechnics, electrolysis,? nontoxic aquarium plant weights...
PS, Charles and all, keep a dead dry cell flashlight battery (the cheap kind). Take it apart for elements for your collection, a few of which also make perfect XRF calibration sources.
Geo
Just for fun I tested both sides of a Li battery.? One side (+) is shiny and engraved and the other side is dull (-).? After doing the shiny side (red) for a couple of hours I started the dull side and unfortunately let it run overnight so the counts are disproportionately high.? However, close inspection of the 2 graphs show that the shiny side has much more Cr than the dull side.? In fact, whatever Cr shows up in the blue graph may actually be coming from the edges of the battery where the shiny side wraps around.
So my question is whether there is an electrical reason for the Cr on the + side or is it purely cosmetic?
Charles
|
The scans that I posted show only Cr Fe and Ni.? Of course, I can't see Li in any case.
Those cheap batteries used to have a nice zinc case,? carbon rod and a lot of MnO2.?
The manganese dioxide is a catalyst to decompose hydrogen peroxide into water and O2, which reacts with calcium carbide to make a mixture of O2 and acetylene. Fun to play with but highly flammable.?
The carbon rods make great,? well,? electrodes, for all kinds of things.? Arc lamps,? electrolysis,? etc.
Zinc good for pyrotechnics, electrolysis,? nontoxic aquarium plant weights...
PS, Charles and all, keep a dead dry cell flashlight battery (the cheap kind). Take it apart for elements for your collection, a few of which also make perfect XRF calibration sources.
Geo
Just for fun I tested both sides of a Li battery.? One side (+) is shiny and engraved and the other side is dull (-).? After doing the shiny side (red) for a couple of hours I started the dull side and unfortunately let it run overnight so the counts are disproportionately high.? However, close inspection of the 2 graphs show that the shiny side has much more Cr than the dull side.? In fact, whatever Cr shows up in the blue graph may actually be coming from the edges of the battery where the shiny side wraps around.
So my question is whether there is an electrical reason for the Cr on the + side or is it purely cosmetic?
Charles
|
Geo,
I have the specs here someplace but I don’t remember exactly. 16
seems about right and the microfocus spot was very small as I remember.
I’ll dig around and see f I can find the manual
?
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Show quoted text
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of GEOelectronics@...
Sent: Sunday, February 9, 2020 10:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Li battery shiny vs dull
?
That
sounds logical Dud, hey on your Kevex stand alone tube, do you know the spot
size and the cone angle? The one in my rig here in the counting room seems to
have a 16 degree cone- does that sound right?
|
No biggie Dud, My figures indicated that the focal spot of the electron beam, whatever size it actually is,? is approximately 1" from the outer edge of the brass collimator on the outer housing, and that sounds credible.
Geo
----- Original Message ----- From: Dude <dfemer@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 14:54:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [XRF] Li battery shiny vs dull
Geo, I have the specs here someplace but I don’t remember exactly. 16
seems about right and the microfocus spot was very small as I remember. I’ll dig around and see f I can find the manual ? ? That
sounds logical Dud, hey on your Kevex stand alone tube, do you know the spot
size and the cone angle? The one in my rig here in the counting room seems to
have a 16 degree cone- does that sound right?
|
Geo,
My Kevex’s are PXS4-613W and ?run with a CU015 60 kV power supply.
Target Voltage:? 5.0 to 60.0 kV
Current:? 0.01 to 1.00 mA
X-ray source spot size: 0.01” x 0.020” (0.25mm x 0.45 mm)
Approximately
X-ray Output: 101R/min at 60 watts
X-ray Window: 0.005” (0.13mm) Be
Angle of illumination: 35 degrees inclusive (Approx)
?
When you first fire it up or when it’s been sitting for a long
while ramp up the voltage in 20% steps at 10 % of max current steps ?to allow
the tube to outgas. Do this over a 10- to 15 min period (1 minute minimum at
each step) before going to full power. Watch out for arcing. ?Don’t run
prolonged operation at 5kV or less at high beam current as that will run the filament
hotter than normal and will decrease the filament life.
They warn that the X-rays are dangerous and ?may be fatal. The
X-ray tube window must be placed in a shielded chamber. It’s also clearly stated
not to let anyone named Geo operate this machinery.
Dud
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dude
Sent: Sunday, February 9, 2020 11:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Li battery shiny vs dull
?
Geo,
I have the specs here someplace but I don’t remember exactly. 16
seems about right and the microfocus spot was very small as I remember.
I’ll dig around and see f I can find the manual
?
?
That
sounds logical Dud, hey on your Kevex stand alone tube, do you know the spot
size and the cone angle? The one in my rig here in the counting room seems to
have a 16 degree cone- does that sound right?
|
Cool, that's a beast compared to mine. Max is 0.1 mA (100 microamp) here.
It does have its own shielded housing, and I suspect the narrow measured beam cone angle is controlled by an mechanical iris inside the sealed tube. I'm assuming yours is also a side exit not and end-fire, those use transmission targets, the kind I use have "reflection" tungsten targets.? The excitation HV is less than the W Ka, so all I work with are Bremsstrahlung X-Rays, thus the external filtering etc.
Geo
----- Original Message ----- From: Dude <dfemer@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 15:30:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [XRF] Li battery shiny vs dull
Geo, My Kevex’s are PXS4-613W and ?run with a CU015 60 kV power supply. Target Voltage:? 5.0 to 60.0 kV Current:? 0.01 to 1.00 mA X-ray source spot size: 0.01” x 0.020” (0.25mm x 0.45 mm)
Approximately X-ray Output: 101R/min at 60 watts X-ray Window: 0.005” (0.13mm) Be Angle of illumination: 35 degrees inclusive (Approx) ? When you first fire it up or when it’s been sitting for a long
while ramp up the voltage in 20% steps at 10 % of max current steps ?to allow
the tube to outgas. Do this over a 10- to 15 min period (1 minute minimum at
each step) before going to full power. Watch out for arcing. ?Don’t run
prolonged operation at 5kV or less at high beam current as that will run the filament
hotter than normal and will decrease the filament life. They warn that the X-rays are dangerous and ?may be fatal. The
X-ray tube window must be placed in a shielded chamber. It’s also clearly stated
not to let anyone named Geo operate this machinery. Dud ? ? Geo, I have the specs here someplace but I don’t remember exactly. 16
seems about right and the microfocus spot was very small as I remember. I’ll dig around and see f I can find the manual ? ? That
sounds logical Dud, hey on your Kevex stand alone tube, do you know the spot
size and the cone angle? The one in my rig here in the counting room seems to
have a 16 degree cone- does that sound right?
|
Nick Andrews