Re: Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
Hi guys?
To look at the smaller ?lower energies reduce the kV below the 15keV Zr peak.? In general keep the kV 2-3 times the energy of the peak you are looking for. U..
Couldn¡¯t agree more?
If lower Z element is present in sufficient quantities ,higher energies??will still have a higher probability to??xrf low Z elements?
?
Only issue is minimizing??the??bg noise??when using lower energies .
Anyone successfully grounded his cathode to generate more low energy x rays .Good for low Z elements?
I attempted it .
X-ray are still produced??but lots of scatter
Back to the drawing board?
?
Taray
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Re: Anlyzing and comparing Trinitite samples.
Meantime I found Strontium in Trinitite with the Si-PIN and XRF- next to see if it's Sr-Y-90 type. Sr is in blue 
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I like the view! And oh yes the mountains and stuff outside is nice too.
Geo
----- Original Message ----- From: Charles David Young <charlesdavidyoung@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 20:32:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: [XRF] Si-PIN with a view
The scan is of ishikawaite from Little Patsy Pegmatite, South Platte, CO.? The Si-PIN is sitting on the window sill with a view of the Catalina Foothills.
Charles
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The scan is of ishikawaite from Little Patsy Pegmatite, South Platte, CO.? The Si-PIN is sitting on the window sill with a view of the Catalina Foothills.
Charles
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Re: Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
OK on combining, I did that in a few variations of the full library, but after doing that it became obvious why they have a Ka library and a Kb library etc. The overlaps are too great. It can't make a logical decision at all. Also by doing several with only a few, key gamma rays can be included.
Say it wasn't an experiment per se but yesterday while calibrating a Si-PIN with a Ba-133 cal source, I expanded the rang to see if it could pick up the 81 keV signal, and yes it does. Nothing like the sensitivity at 40 and below, but with all the resolution needed. Keep that in mind for you 125 kVp tube.....Yes the CdTe covers the range with much greater sensitivity but with a sacrifice in resolution.
.
Geo>K0Ff
----- Original Message ----- From: Dude <dfemer@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 11:06:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [XRF] Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
Geo, Try combining the amptek La,b and La,b libraries into one. It a
pain to have to switch libraries between the two.? I used to run over the weekend using a HPGe detector for those
really weak samples but you need an autofill LN2 setup. Dud ? Good
points and I'll definitely experiment with that when the equipment can go back
into "experiment" mode. Right now everything is tied up taking
measurements for my database with the current sensors before bringing the SDD
on line for some specific measurements. Also
we need a few new Amptek XRF libraries to quickly search for some of the
individual elements and some small groupings of elements. The single element
ones can contain all the XRF peaks in the K and L shells. Such a tool would be
very handy at times, especially when searching a wide and complex scan such as
comes from Trinitite. Also
it seems from the literature, my 24 hour long scans are just the beginning,
they need to be tripled at least it seems to correlate with what NIST is
doing....can you imagine that on a Ln2 cooled sensor? By the way I want to get
back in touch with the college to see if their T.E. cooled HPGe is back on line
and book some time there for some scans and especially to get access to their
calibration samples. -----
Original Message -----
From: Dude <dfemer@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:52:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [XRF] Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka Geo, To look
at the smaller ?lower energies reduce the kV below the 15keV
Zr peak.? In general keep the kV 2-3 times the energy of the peak you are
looking for. Use a filter that has a k-edge about 1.5 times energy of that peak
to tweak stuff.? So you need to reduce the kV below 15kV to kill the Zr
and higher
energy peaks and use ?no filters which should be good for Ti, Fe, Ni and
Zn. ?uA
is set to keep your count time within limits, 30K cps or lower. If you
go WAY back in the original NaI ?emails you¡¯ll see we
talked about XRF from internal radiation and decay produced. Dud ? ?
|
Re: Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
Geo,
Try combining the amptek La,b and La,b libraries into one. It a
pain to have to switch libraries between the two.?
I used to run over the weekend using a HPGe detector for those
really weak samples but you need an autofill LN2 setup.
Dud
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of GEOelectronics@...
Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 7:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
?
Good
points and I'll definitely experiment with that when the equipment can go back
into "experiment" mode. Right now everything is tied up taking
measurements for my database with the current sensors before bringing the SDD
on line for some specific measurements.
Also
we need a few new Amptek XRF libraries to quickly search for some of the
individual elements and some small groupings of elements. The single element
ones can contain all the XRF peaks in the K and L shells. Such a tool would be
very handy at times, especially when searching a wide and complex scan such as
comes from Trinitite.
Also
it seems from the literature, my 24 hour long scans are just the beginning,
they need to be tripled at least it seems to correlate with what NIST is
doing....can you imagine that on a Ln2 cooled sensor? By the way I want to get
back in touch with the college to see if their T.E. cooled HPGe is back on line
and book some time there for some scans and especially to get access to their
calibration samples.
-----
Original Message -----
From: Dude <dfemer@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:52:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [XRF] Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
Geo,
To look
at the smaller ?lower energies reduce the kV below the 15keV
Zr peak.? In general keep the kV 2-3 times the energy of the peak you are
looking for. Use a filter that has a k-edge about 1.5 times energy of that peak
to tweak stuff.? So you need to reduce the kV below 15kV to kill the Zr
and higher
energy peaks and use ?no filters which should be good for Ti, Fe, Ni and
Zn. ?uA
is set to keep your count time within limits, 30K cps or lower.
If you
go WAY back in the original NaI ?emails you¡¯ll see we
talked about XRF from internal radiation and decay produced.
Dud
?
?
|
Re: Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
Good points and I'll definitely experiment with that when the equipment can go back into "experiment" mode. Right now everything is tied up taking measurements for my database with the current sensors before bringing the SDD on line for some specific measurements.
Also we need a few new Amptek XRF libraries to quickly search for some of the individual elements and some small groupings of elements. The single element ones can contain all the XRF peaks in the K and L shells. Such a tool would be very handy at times, especially when searching a wide and complex scan such as comes from Trinitite.
Also it seems from the literature, my 24 hour long scans are just the beginning, they need to be tripled at least it seems to correlate with what NIST is doing....can you imagine that on a Ln2 cooled sensor? By the way I want to get back in touch with the college to see if their T.E. cooled HPGe is back on line and book some time there for some scans and especially to get access to their calibration samples.
G
----- Original Message ----- From: Dude <dfemer@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:52:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [XRF] Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
Geo, To look at the smaller ?lower energies reduce the kV below the 15keV
Zr peak.? In general keep the kV 2-3 times the energy of the peak you are
looking for. Use a filter that has a k-edge about 1.5 times energy of that peak
to tweak stuff.? So you need to reduce the kV below 15kV to kill the Zr and higher
energy peaks and use ?no filters which should be good for Ti, Fe, Ni and Zn. ?uA
is set to keep your count time within limits, 30K cps or lower. If you go WAY back in the original NaI ?emails you¡¯ll see we
talked about XRF from internal radiation and decay produced. Dud ? ? ? Here's
the longer run time Dude, there is information in the smaller peaks, but the
overwhelming peaks are swamping some of them. Should I try less Kv or less uA? ?
In the past I never noticed stable element XRF from internal radiation, not
that I was specifically looking for it. Charles' experiment have me looking
now, at least being aware.
I'm trying to keep one eye on the deadtime too, as you suggested. This scan
attached reflects the already lowered kV and uA to try to accomplish an
improvement.
For new members:?
"XRF scan" means there is an external energy source of some kind
applied to the item being tested. This can be X-Rays, Gamma-Rays, beta
particle. electron beams, protons etc.
"Gamma Spectrum Scan" is a passive scan where only the rays naturally
coming from the sample are being detected and charted. Thanks to a Charles
Youngs experiments, we are looking for and are aware of internal sources of
energy in radioactive samples causing XRF without the use of externally applied
energy. Generally this is orders of magnitude lower than externally applied
energy to excite XRF.
Geo
|
Re: Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
Geo,
To look at the smaller ?lower energies reduce the kV below the 15keV
Zr peak.? In general keep the kV 2-3 times the energy of the peak you are
looking for. Use a filter that has a k-edge about 1.5 times energy of that peak
to tweak stuff.? So you need to reduce the kV below 15kV to kill the Zr and higher
energy peaks and use ?no filters which should be good for Ti, Fe, Ni and Zn. ?uA
is set to keep your count time within limits, 30K cps or lower.
If you go WAY back in the original NaI ?emails you¡¯ll see we
talked about XRF from internal radiation and decay produced.
Dud
?
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of GEOelectronics@...
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 8:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
?
Here's
the longer run time Dude, there is information in the smaller peaks, but the
overwhelming peaks are swamping some of them. Should I try less Kv or less uA?
?
In the past I never noticed stable element XRF from internal radiation, not
that I was specifically looking for it. Charles' experiment have me looking
now, at least being aware.
I'm trying to keep one eye on the deadtime too, as you suggested. This scan
attached reflects the already lowered kV and uA to try to accomplish an
improvement.
For new members:?
"XRF scan" means there is an external energy source of some kind
applied to the item being tested. This can be X-Rays, Gamma-Rays, beta
particle. electron beams, protons etc.
"Gamma Spectrum Scan" is a passive scan where only the rays naturally
coming from the sample are being detected and charted. Thanks to a Charles
Youngs experiments, we are looking for and are aware of internal sources of
energy in radioactive samples causing XRF without the use of externally applied
energy. Generally this is orders of magnitude lower than externally applied
energy to excite XRF.
Geo
|
Re: Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
Here's the longer run time Dude, there is information in the smaller peaks, but the overwhelming peaks are swamping some of them. Should I try less Kv or less uA?
?
In the past I never noticed stable element XRF from internal radiation, not that I was specifically looking for it. Charles' experiment have me looking now, at least being aware.
I'm trying to keep one eye on the deadtime too, as you suggested. This scan attached reflects the already lowered kV and uA to try to accomplish an improvement.
For new members:?
"XRF scan" means there is an external energy source of some kind applied to the item being tested. This can be X-Rays, Gamma-Rays, beta particle. electron beams, protons etc.
"Gamma Spectrum Scan" is a passive scan where only the rays naturally coming from the sample are being detected and charted. Thanks to a Charles Youngs experiments, we are looking for and are aware of internal sources of energy in radioactive samples causing XRF without the use of externally applied energy. Generally this is orders of magnitude lower than externally applied energy to excite XRF.
Geo
|
Re: Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
Geo,
Looks like you¡¯ll need quite a bit more count time before you¡¯ll
finally see what¡¯s there. The U/Th is most certainly fluorescing the Zr. What does
the higher energy Ka¡¯s look like. You should have some better peaks up there
due to the higher yield.
Dud
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of GEOelectronics@...
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 10:39 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
?
The Q in the picture's title stands for Question Mark.
Steve's 97ct Zircon in the Si-PIN chamber. We know uranium is in it, down at
the low end we expect the U daughters Pa and so on to show off their X-Rays.
Assuming the ~13 keV peak beginning to form is the La
peaks of Th-Pa-U, there should be a Lb and a Lg peak cluster as well. Look at
the exact energy of the tallest peak in the Lb range- 15.77 keV. This is the Ka
of Zr. Coincidence? Internal XRF?
|
Re: Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
Steve's 97ct Zircon excited by 40kVp X-Ray @ 15 uA (microAmps) for 4.51 seconds. The tittle of the picture says it all.(will now look deeper for other elements) Geo>K0FF 
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Re: Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
,mca of 3.5 hour gamma spectrum scan of Steve D's 97ct Zircon in graded shield chamber on Si-PIN detector. Tremendous accuracy and detail, but not much going on in that range. Next up will be the excited mineral XRF.
see attached .mca
Geo
|
Re: Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
The Q in the picture's title stands for Question Mark. Steve's 97ct Zircon in the Si-PIN chamber. We know uranium is in it, down at the low end we expect the U daughters Pa and so on to show off their X-Rays. Assuming the ~13 keV peak beginning to form is the La peaks of Th-Pa-U, there should be a Lb and a Lg peak cluster as well. Look at the exact energy of the tallest peak in the Lb range- 15.77 keV. This is the Ka of Zr. Coincidence? Internal XRF? 
|
Re: Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
Will be glad to post those Dud, it may be a while, but definitely on the punch list for these samples.
Geo
----- Original Message ----- From: Dude <dfemer@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 22:13:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [XRF] Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
Geo, Very nice. It would be interesting to see a Si-Pin comparison in
natural source with the same count time as the TeCd to look at ?the ?differences
in efficiency. Dud ? ? this
is all natural, no9 excitation source used at all....that will come later. -----
Original Message -----
From: Dude <dfemer@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:09:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [XRF] Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
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Geo, What
was your excitation source. We need to sort out XRF lines ?from
the source excitation lines or natural lines Dud ? ? Steve- here's the data on the two Zircons, (for some reason
my eMail won't attach them).
Geo
|
Re: Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
Geo,
Very nice. It would be interesting to see a Si-Pin comparison in
natural source with the same count time as the TeCd to look at ?the ?differences
in efficiency.
Dud
?
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Show quoted text
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of GEOelectronics@...
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 3:48 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
?
this
is all natural, no9 excitation source used at all....that will come later.
-----
Original Message -----
From: Dude <dfemer@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:09:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [XRF] Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
margin: 0.0in;
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Geo,
What
was your excitation source. We need to sort out XRF lines ?from
the source excitation lines or natural lines
Dud
?
?
Steve- here's the data on the two Zircons, (for some reason
my eMail won't attach them).
Geo
|
Re: Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
this is all natural, no9 excitation source used at all....that will come later.
George
----- Original Message ----- From: Dude <dfemer@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:09:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [XRF] Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
Geo, What was your excitation source. We need to sort out XRF lines ?from
the source excitation lines or natural lines Dud ? ? Steve- here's the data on the two Zircons, (for some reason
my eMail won't attach them).
Geo
|
Re: Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
Geo,
What was your excitation source. We need to sort out XRF lines ?from
the source excitation lines or natural lines
Dud
?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of GEOelectronics@...
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 7:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [XRF] Zircon- Malawi vs Sri Lanka
?
Steve- here's the data on the two Zircons, (for some reason
my eMail won't attach them).
Geo
|
Re: Anlyzing and comparing Trinitite samples.
After scanning the red Trinitite for 16,500 seconds (~4.6Hr) the Cs-137 fission product has caught up in the RT sample to equal the count of the TM sample (which was scanned for 86,400Secs = 24Hrs). It would seem that the red Trinitite has approximately 5 times the radioactivity in these specific energies, while the TM holds a vastly larger quantity of certain energies, especially those in the expected lower daughter ranges 72-75 and again at 84 keV. Still the TM holds more at 59.5 keV. The test continues until 59.5 is balanced, then stopped, we will make some assumptions and open a discussion then. Also full .mca files (covers whole 0-411 keV rage at once) are available if anyone wants? to repeat the sequence for themselves on their own samples.  Some of the red ghost peaks can be accounted for by cadmium and Te escape peaks inside the detector, generated by the very large peaks higher in the spectrum. Also there can be coincidence peaks higher in the spectrum, likely considering the rather high nearly monochromatic peaks in this view. Geo>K0FF
|
Re: Anlyzing and comparing Trinitite samples.
After more time has passed, noted in the parameter bar on the right, in seconds, the next peaks coincide.? These are in the U and Np L shell peak trio at the left end, corresponding to Am-241 decay product Np-137 La, Lb and Lg X-Rays and very near but not overlapping, Uranium's La-Lb-Lg X-Rays. The Np peaks are a given, when you have a predominant 59.5, there will 100% of decays be Np daughter and the yield of the Np-X-ray as well as the variety of Gamma Rays is well documented.  Note that the Am-241 peak at 59.5 has not balanced yet. This is important being part of the proof that the U-Np L shell X-Ray peaks truly do contain more than just Np contribution. Where do the Uranium peaks come from? Remember, the daughter element is where the X-Rays come from. What is making fresh Uranium in here? One path is by XRF of old Uranium, the other is the formation of new U-234 in the U-238 decay chain, and the 3rd most obvious way is decay of Plutonium isotopes into Uranium atoms. We know there is or at least was Plutonium present in these samples. Am-241 is the daughter of Pu-241, the only common long lived Pu isotope to beta decay. The others decay by alpha particle and lead directly to one of several Uranium daughters. and those of course will have U X-Rays Notice too the Pb/Bi X-Rays (La-Lb) ~72-85 keV . This opens a whole new discussion avenue concerning lower daughters. Geo>K0ff
|
Re: Anlyzing and comparing Trinitite samples.
Now the TM scan is ghosted as a red outline, while the RT sample in solid? yellow has been started , then stopped at the first point where a major peak height corresponds to one in TM.
First to do so is ~40 keV, one of the key Eu-152 decay product X-Rays, being from either Sm or Gd depending which path a particular decay goes For the record, Eu-152 is said to be a neutron activation product of natural europium in the soil at Trinity Site It has a 13 year half-life and 71.88% of decays are by electron-capture mode, yielding a Sm-152 daughter, the rest of the time by beta-minus decay yielding a Gd-152 daughter. Sm Ka= 40.12, Kb= 45.40 while Gd Ka= 42.98, Kb= 48.72 (INL Gamma Ray Catalog). Other Trinitite studies often refer these as being Eu peaks, not bothering to individually assign them. Suffice to say NaI detectors would no doubt lump them and many other peaks together in top a jumble. We have at our disposal for the first time the technology to separate them.
Already from this single measurement we can predict that the Eu content of the two samples will prove to be different. There are several other Eu peaks higher in the spectrum that we will address later.
Geo>K0FF
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