That’s really neat, Geo.? I never cease to be amazed at your breadth of knowledge, as well as that of other members in this group of “amateur” scientists. ? Happy Holidays, everyone? --? Ken ?
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From: GEOelectronics@...Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 08:33 AM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [XRF] Xrf timing belt ? Cool Ken.
Very much on-topic for this group, thanks.
Neutron activation is something we run in to during Trinitite testing (Eu and Ba, not to mention Pu-241>Am-241)
Stellite, interesting you should mention that alloy. I never heard of it before when this research piece was reverse engineered via XRF and Gamma Spec.
See paper .pdf attached.
Geo ?
|
Cool Ken.
Very much on-topic for this group, thanks.
Neutron activation is something we run in to during Trinitite testing (Eu and Ba, not to mention Pu-241>Am-241)
Stellite, interesting you should mention that alloy. I never heard of it before when this research piece was reverse engineered via XRF and Gamma Spec.
See paper .pdf attached.
Geo
|
Hi Geo, ? Yes and No. ?Analysis was mostly BEFORE the fact. Co-60 was the bane of our existence, as it easily accounted for probably 80% or more of our collective radiation dose at the plant.? The high energy photons at 1173 and 1332 keV each have a 100% yield, and are very difficult to shield out.? Co-60 arises from neutron activation of stable Co-59, which makes up 100% of all natural cobalt, and has a reasonably high thermal neutron cross section of 19 Barns.? If you get natural cobalt anywhere near a neutron flux, you’re going to have Co-60. ? When I say “before the fact”, I meant that we went to great lengths to analyze the metal in various components for cobalt content, mostly through the use of XRF.? If something had appreciable amounts of cobalt in the XRF analysis, it didn’t go anywhere near the reactor.? In the early days of reactor construction, a lot of reactors used an alloy called stellite, which was very resistant to wear and corrosion.? Things like bearings, pump seals, etc. were made from stellite to resist wear.? Just because they were wear-resistant didn’t mean they didn’t experience wear.? Mechanical forces, high water temperatures and pressures, etc. still managed to wear on the surface layer, even at a microscopic level. ?Problem was, the primary metal in stellite alloy was cobalt.? Once in the reactor coolant, that dissolved/suspended natural Co-59 went right into the core of the reactor and got transformed into Co-60.? A little Co-60 goes a long way… one gram of Co-60 has a specific activity of 1130 Curies, so even one milligram packs a punch of 1.13 Curies, which would produce an exposure rate of about 15,000 R/hr at 1 cm, or 67 R/hr at 6-inches.? Again, that’s only ONE MILLIGRAM.? And that stuff gets scattered EVERYWHERE.? If you have a small leak of coolant, Co-60 is there big time.? Have a bend in a pipe where the water impacts or a dead leg where the water slows down, you’ve got a hot spot on the internal side of the pipe.? The pipe thickness does little to shield out the energetic zoomies from the Co-60 decay.? Bottom line – activated hardware was way too hot to work with, so we analyzed things for stable/natural cobalt BEFORE they got activated. ? Another interesting critter in the plants was zinc.? Natural zinc is comprised of 49% Zn-64, and the remainder spread out amongst stable Zn-66, Zn-67, Zn-68, and Zn-70.? Someone found out years ago that if you inject zinc into the coolant it gets incorporated into the oxide film on the surface of the metal components, and helps to reduce corrosion, kinda like “galvanizing” the internal components.? The zinc forms a passive layer on the atomic level.? In the early days, they just introduced zinc oxide into the coolant.? ZnO is not very soluble, but you only really need an atom-layer thickness to slow corrosion.? Problem was, natural Zn has 49% Zn-64, which gets activated up to Zn-65.? Zn-64 has a thermal neutron activation cross section of 0.46 Barns, so it is less prone to activation than Co-59 at 19 Barns.? When you factor in the lower aboundance (49%) and lower cross-section (0.46 Barns), natural zinc would be about 100-times less likely to get activated to Zn-65 than would natural cobalt activate to Co-60.? Zn-65 has a higher specific activity than Co-60, 8200 Ci/g, so it was of concern as well. ? The solution to the Zn-65 activation problem was to “deplete” the natural zinc of its Zn-64 fraction.? They employed isotopic separation to “enrich” the natural zinc in the isotopes at the HEAVIER end, kinda the reverse process of enriching uranium to get LIGHTER U-235.? Thus, in the end, nuclear plants were buying “depleted” zinc oxide to inject into the reactor to prevent the corrosion.? I’m not sure how they “depleted” the zinc, other than using isotopic separation.? I don’t know if is was a gaseous diffusion process like uranium enrichment, or perhaps they used tuned lasers to “excite”/ionize the various zinc isotopes and selectively capture the ionized isotopes. ? Sorry for the long diatribe to answer Geos question, but I thought some on the group may find it interesting.? ? Happy Holidays to all? --? Ken, WB0OCV ?
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From: GEOelectronics@...Sent: Monday, December 7, 2020 04:16 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [XRF] Xrf timing belt ? Pretty cool Ken, did you ever test any Co-60 activated hardware? ?
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Ok this is the last item to show in??my automotive box. It’s a fan belt and??belt tensioner? Actually I never knew the latter existed. Fan belts are also call V belts or serpentine belts . The scan for the rubber??fan belt??show Zn and Iron like the timing belt. The tensioner tested for Iron,Cu and Zn
What strikes me the most about automotive xrf is ZINC It is almost everywhere within the engine and lubricants? The key word is die casting in automotive industry? It’s the unsung hero . Taray
On Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 5:16 AM, GEOelectronics@... wrote: Pretty cool Ken, did you ever test any Co-60 activated hardware?
Geo
From: "Ken Sejkora" <kjsejkora@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Monday, December 7, 2020 2:46:22 PM Subject: Re: [XRF] Xrf timing belt
As an interesting aside to the bromine discussion – ? When I worked at a nuclear power plant a few years ago, we were consistently seeing airborne Bromine-82 in air samples collected from only one of two air sampling locations in boiling-water reactor drywell.? Most people would suspect it was a fission product, but Br-82 is pretty low on the Mae West curves… not impossible, but unlikely.? Plus, we weren’t seeing any other fissions products like Br-84, Sr-89, Kryptons, Xenons, Iodines, etc. – just the Br-82.? After doing a little digging, I found out they had used some fire-resistant lumber in that section of the drywell to shore up some scaffolding, and due to high radiation doses associated with removal of the wooden material, they decided to leave it in place.? Since it was fire-resistant, they weren’t concerned with any combustibility aspect of leaving it there.? Being in the drywell, it was exposed to a reasonable high neutron flux, and the naturally-occurring Br-81 (~49% abundance) was being activated to Br-82 and off-gassing into the drywell atmosphere.? As a halogen, it was collected on the charcoal canister used to monitor the drywell atmosphere just like radioactive iodine, and was showing up on our gamma spectroscopy analyses of the drywell atmosphere samples. ? Ahh, the good ole’ days!? ? Ken ? ? Bromine- remember bromine is used extensively in electronics as a flame retardant in printed circuit boards. and clothing too. ?
|
This is an interesting thread Taray, thanks, we will watch it grow.
Geo
From: "taray singh via groups.io" <sukhjez@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Monday, December 7, 2020 6:48:31 PM Subject: Re: [XRF] Xrf old faucet
 Forgot this.. On Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 8:40 AM, taray singh via groups.io <sukhjez@...> wrote:
I collected first flush from unused faucets and a reddish brown sludge was subsequently??added??to used coffee ground .? Soaked overnight? Excess water drained out and coffee put to dry in the sun Subsequently repacked in thin kitchen plastic and scanned overnight? Xrf findings show Fe,Ni ,Zn and lead? A test of shorter duration??of clean used coffee show weaker peaks??somewhat similar. Putting together the old faucet structure and this finding makes me arrive to a certain conclusion? Zinc faucets a potent corrosive agents The stagnant water in the faucet and??the proximal plumbing system is accounting for a build up of heavy metals? If left alone it will eventually cause total blockage like what happened??to this faucet? This coffee ground is all also a reflection??of the state of the water used at the primary source??and the actual brewing process where heating elements leached metals into the coffee This coffee ground came from hospital lounge? Apparently all drinking water there is prefiltered So far nobody I contacted including??the technicians could tell me the nature of the heating elements used in my??coffee maker? Ni ,Cr,Al or steel are common heating coils. The coffee beans have some natural elements present excluding any poor irrigation??system at the plantations. I have to do test on clean coffee beans and a another for the used coffee ground to get a clear picture of my faucet findings. But putting all the pieces together does suggest my tap water water contain measurable heavy??metals? Pics are coffee ground residue??/clean coffee 4096 mca? I think I will take a coffee break??for now Taray
On Monday, November 16, 2020, 2:22 AM, GEOelectronics@... <GEOelectronics@...> wrote: First being shown is Taray's "Tap sediment end.mca) loaded into live_data_2 and showing as? solid red peaks with the "Tap brass.mca" loaded in live_data_1 with its peaks showing as black outlines. If the user wished to see only one set of peaks, the other ones would have been set to H for HIDE instead of left with no letter in the front. If set up that way, you can animate them back and forth with keystrokes. Sometimes overlaying the peaks is too busy to be effective. I've highlighted different peaks, especially the Pb Ka1. It will be clearer in the second picture what a big difference there is at 10.55kev between the scans. To me this would definitely raise a red flag for Pb but at this stage is not definite enough to call it 100%. Further testing would be merited and could swing it one way or the other. All colors are set by the user as is their intensity (# of pixels) Notice at the top of the display it is showing the name of the active .mca file. When we change the other file to being active instead, this will change to that file name.  Now the same two scans, but switched with the outline becoming solid red and vise versa. To me the 10.55keV difference is much clearer in this setting. Close but about half a channel off Pb  . However below see how we can expand down to 1 keV full width (less is possible, and this scan was taken with only 2048 channels, we can do up to 8k channels for even better resolution but longer scan time). 1 keV = 1000 electron-volts. Look how many individual peaks can be inside a single keV.  Have fun? Geo
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Forgot this..
On Tuesday, December 8, 2020, 8:40 AM, taray singh via groups.io <sukhjez@...> wrote:
I collected first flush from unused faucets and a reddish brown sludge was subsequently??added??to used coffee ground .? Soaked overnight? Excess water drained out and coffee put to dry in the sun Subsequently repacked in thin kitchen plastic and scanned overnight? Xrf findings show Fe,Ni ,Zn and lead? A test of shorter duration??of clean used coffee show weaker peaks??somewhat similar. Putting together the old faucet structure and this finding makes me arrive to a certain conclusion? Zinc faucets a potent corrosive agents The stagnant water in the faucet and??the proximal plumbing system is accounting for a build up of heavy metals? If left alone it will eventually cause total blockage like what happened??to this faucet? This coffee ground is all also a reflection??of the state of the water used at the primary source??and the actual brewing process where heating elements leached metals into the coffee This coffee ground came from hospital lounge? Apparently all drinking water there is prefiltered So far nobody I contacted including??the technicians could tell me the nature of the heating elements used in my??coffee maker? Ni ,Cr,Al or steel are common heating coils. The coffee beans have some natural elements present excluding any poor irrigation??system at the plantations. I have to do test on clean coffee beans and a another for the used coffee ground to get a clear picture of my faucet findings. But putting all the pieces together does suggest my tap water water contain measurable heavy??metals? Pics are coffee ground residue??/clean coffee 4096 mca? I think I will take a coffee break??for now Taray
On Monday, November 16, 2020, 2:22 AM, GEOelectronics@... <GEOelectronics@...> wrote: First being shown is Taray's "Tap sediment end.mca) loaded into live_data_2 and showing as? solid red peaks with the "Tap brass.mca" loaded in live_data_1 with its peaks showing as black outlines. If the user wished to see only one set of peaks, the other ones would have been set to H for HIDE instead of left with no letter in the front. If set up that way, you can animate them back and forth with keystrokes. Sometimes overlaying the peaks is too busy to be effective. I've highlighted different peaks, especially the Pb Ka1. It will be clearer in the second picture what a big difference there is at 10.55kev between the scans. To me this would definitely raise a red flag for Pb but at this stage is not definite enough to call it 100%. Further testing would be merited and could swing it one way or the other. All colors are set by the user as is their intensity (# of pixels) Notice at the top of the display it is showing the name of the active .mca file. When we change the other file to being active instead, this will change to that file name.  Now the same two scans, but switched with the outline becoming solid red and vise versa. To me the 10.55keV difference is much clearer in this setting. Close but about half a channel off Pb  . However below see how we can expand down to 1 keV full width (less is possible, and this scan was taken with only 2048 channels, we can do up to 8k channels for even better resolution but longer scan time). 1 keV = 1000 electron-volts. Look how many individual peaks can be inside a single keV.  Have fun? Geo
|
I collected first flush from unused faucets and a reddish brown sludge was subsequently??added??to used coffee ground .? Soaked overnight? Excess water drained out and coffee put to dry in the sun Subsequently repacked in thin kitchen plastic and scanned overnight? Xrf findings show Fe,Ni ,Zn and lead? A test of shorter duration??of clean used coffee show weaker peaks??somewhat similar. Putting together the old faucet structure and this finding makes me arrive to a certain conclusion? Zinc faucets a potent corrosive agents The stagnant water in the faucet and??the proximal plumbing system is accounting for a build up of heavy metals? If left alone it will eventually cause total blockage like what happened??to this faucet? This coffee ground is all also a reflection??of the state of the water used at the primary source??and the actual brewing process where heating elements leached metals into the coffee This coffee ground came from hospital lounge? Apparently all drinking water there is prefiltered So far nobody I contacted including??the technicians could tell me the nature of the heating elements used in my??coffee maker? Ni ,Cr,Al or steel are common heating coils. The coffee beans have some natural elements present excluding any poor irrigation??system at the plantations. I have to do test on clean coffee beans and a another for the used coffee ground to get a clear picture of my faucet findings. But putting all the pieces together does suggest my tap water water contain measurable heavy??metals? Pics are coffee ground residue??/clean coffee 4096 mca? I think I will take a coffee break??for now Taray
On Monday, November 16, 2020, 2:22 AM, GEOelectronics@... <GEOelectronics@...> wrote: First being shown is Taray's "Tap sediment end.mca) loaded into live_data_2 and showing as? solid red peaks with the "Tap brass.mca" loaded in live_data_1 with its peaks showing as black outlines. If the user wished to see only one set of peaks, the other ones would have been set to H for HIDE instead of left with no letter in the front. If set up that way, you can animate them back and forth with keystrokes. Sometimes overlaying the peaks is too busy to be effective. I've highlighted different peaks, especially the Pb Ka1. It will be clearer in the second picture what a big difference there is at 10.55kev between the scans. To me this would definitely raise a red flag for Pb but at this stage is not definite enough to call it 100%. Further testing would be merited and could swing it one way or the other. All colors are set by the user as is their intensity (# of pixels) Notice at the top of the display it is showing the name of the active .mca file. When we change the other file to being active instead, this will change to that file name.  Now the same two scans, but switched with the outline becoming solid red and vise versa. To me the 10.55keV difference is much clearer in this setting. Close but about half a channel off Pb  . However below see how we can expand down to 1 keV full width (less is possible, and this scan was taken with only 2048 channels, we can do up to 8k channels for even better resolution but longer scan time). 1 keV = 1000 electron-volts. Look how many individual peaks can be inside a single keV.  Have fun? Geo
|
Pretty cool Ken, did you ever test any Co-60 activated hardware?
Geo
From: "Ken Sejkora" <kjsejkora@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Monday, December 7, 2020 2:46:22 PM Subject: Re: [XRF] Xrf timing belt
As an interesting aside to the bromine discussion – ? When I worked at a nuclear power plant a few years ago, we were consistently seeing airborne Bromine-82 in air samples collected from only one of two air sampling locations in boiling-water reactor drywell.? Most people would suspect it was a fission product, but Br-82 is pretty low on the Mae West curves… not impossible, but unlikely.? Plus, we weren’t seeing any other fissions products like Br-84, Sr-89, Kryptons, Xenons, Iodines, etc. – just the Br-82.? After doing a little digging, I found out they had used some fire-resistant lumber in that section of the drywell to shore up some scaffolding, and due to high radiation doses associated with removal of the wooden material, they decided to leave it in place.? Since it was fire-resistant, they weren’t concerned with any combustibility aspect of leaving it there.? Being in the drywell, it was exposed to a reasonable high neutron flux, and the naturally-occurring Br-81 (~49% abundance) was being activated to Br-82 and off-gassing into the drywell atmosphere.? As a halogen, it was collected on the charcoal canister used to monitor the drywell atmosphere just like radioactive iodine, and was showing up on our gamma spectroscopy analyses of the drywell atmosphere samples. ? Ahh, the good ole’ days!? ? Ken ? ? Bromine- remember bromine is used extensively in electronics as a flame retardant in printed circuit boards. and clothing too. ?
|
As an interesting aside to the bromine discussion – ? When I worked at a nuclear power plant a few years ago, we were consistently seeing airborne Bromine-82 in air samples collected from only one of two air sampling locations in boiling-water reactor drywell.? Most people would suspect it was a fission product, but Br-82 is pretty low on the Mae West curves… not impossible, but unlikely.? Plus, we weren’t seeing any other fissions products like Br-84, Sr-89, Kryptons, Xenons, Iodines, etc. – just the Br-82.? After doing a little digging, I found out they had used some fire-resistant lumber in that section of the drywell to shore up some scaffolding, and due to high radiation doses associated with removal of the wooden material, they decided to leave it in place.? Since it was fire-resistant, they weren’t concerned with any combustibility aspect of leaving it there.? Being in the drywell, it was exposed to a reasonable high neutron flux, and the naturally-occurring Br-81 (~49% abundance) was being activated to Br-82 and off-gassing into the drywell atmosphere.? As a halogen, it was collected on the charcoal canister used to monitor the drywell atmosphere just like radioactive iodine, and was showing up on our gamma spectroscopy analyses of the drywell atmosphere samples. ? Ahh, the good ole’ days!? ? Ken ?
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From: GEOelectronics@...Sent: Monday, December 7, 2020 07:18 AM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [XRF] Xrf timing belt ? Bromine- remember bromine is used extensively in electronics as a flame retardant in printed circuit boards. and clothing too. ?
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Good tip. Meantime there's toothpaste and hair shampoo.
Geo
From: "taray singh via groups.io" <sukhjez@...> n? To: [email protected]Sent: Monday, December 7, 2020 7:33:28 AM Subject: Re: [XRF] Xrf timing belt
Geo I anticipated??your bromine response . In addition potassium bromate is added as bread improver helping dough to ferment and rise faster I checked my regular bread and no bromine detected Maybe??I gotta check??those soft fluffy ones??sold separately? Taray
On Monday, December 7, 2020, 8:18 PM, GEOelectronics@... wrote: Bromine- remember bromine is used extensively in electronics as a flame retardant in printed circuit boards. and clothing too.
Geo
From: "taray singh via groups.io" <sukhjez@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2020 10:52:32 PM Subject: Re: [XRF] Xrf timing belt
To make matters worst..
Red oil on ?blue jeans..
Anyway this gives me an idea for another project?
Xrf ?blue jeans to detect dyes used,,,
Recently I picked up strong bromine on my dark blue mobile data modem surface paint.
Taray
|
Geo I anticipated??your bromine response . In addition potassium bromate is added as bread improver helping dough to ferment and rise faster I checked my regular bread and no bromine detected Maybe??I gotta check??those soft fluffy ones??sold separately? Taray
On Monday, December 7, 2020, 8:18 PM, GEOelectronics@... wrote: Bromine- remember bromine is used extensively in electronics as a flame retardant in printed circuit boards. and clothing too.
Geo
From: "taray singh via groups.io" <sukhjez@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2020 10:52:32 PM Subject: Re: [XRF] Xrf timing belt
To make matters worst..
Red oil on ?blue jeans..
Anyway this gives me an idea for another project?
Xrf ?blue jeans to detect dyes used,,,
Recently I picked up strong bromine on my dark blue mobile data modem surface paint.
Taray
|
Bromine- remember bromine is used extensively in electronics as a flame retardant in printed circuit boards. and clothing too.
Geo
From: "taray singh via groups.io" <sukhjez@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2020 10:52:32 PM Subject: Re: [XRF] Xrf timing belt
To make matters worst..
Red oil on ?blue jeans..
Anyway this gives me an idea for another project?
Xrf ?blue jeans to detect dyes used,,,
Recently I picked up strong bromine on my dark blue mobile data modem surface paint.
Taray
|
To make matters worst..
Red oil on ?blue jeans..
Anyway this gives me an idea for another project?
Xrf ?blue jeans to detect dyes used,,,
Recently I picked up strong bromine on my dark blue mobile data modem surface paint.
Taray
|
Well I stretched my
imagination but I’m not convinced there’s any Zn.? Try a used oil. I may be the
levels are too low to pull out
dud
?
?
Dude
I did an xrf scan on my
red transmission oil.
Sampling was repacking
on??a thin kitchen plastic .
Recently learned that
these engine oils??have a color coding system
Various additives such as
P ,Ca,Mg,Zn in ppm doses .
P is usually the highest followed
by Zn in new oil.
But old oil with wear and
tear several other metals get added such as Al,Cr,Fe ,Cu ,Ag and Sn sometimes
as metal chips in old engines .P drops in old oil but it is not measurable here
anyway.
The scan was hesitantly
stopped cos I noticed some??potential heating issues
on my detector?
I need to improve my
ventilation to promote heat loss .
?I don’t think this
transmission oil is gonna ignite when in contact with 59 keV gamma rays.
Anyway the scan results
are rather flat?
But if stretch our
imagination a bit ,there could be Zn peak?
I guess a used oil will
probably reveal better results??.
In my attempt to take a
snapshot of the oil,I spilled some on the floor and on??my pants.Dealing with oils
is a messy job for some?
Taray
?
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On Monday,
December 7, 2020, 3:03 AM, GEOelectronics@... wrote:
PS on the thermal, it is
OK to put a small fan nearby to help cool the body.?
Later we will work on a
simple heatsink for the case.......Fins are good, not much heat to transfrer to
air about 1 Watt
From: "taray singh via
groups.io" <sukhjez@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2020
10:14:34 AM
Subject: Re: [XRF] Xrf timing belt
Geo
Today I
noticed during a long??daytime
scan,the temperature at the back on the extreme left was rising about 8 degrees
celsius??near the
USB port.
Elsewhere
it is usually less than 3 or 4 degrees max
But the
temperature on system is normal on the display screen?
?
Ok let’s
get back to automotive xrf
Next item
is used disc brakes
The xrf
elements detected is impressive.
Metals
detected are Titanium,iron,copper ,zirconium and barium .Barium and??graphite?
??form the pads.
Taray
On Sunday, December 6, 2020, 11:27 PM,
GEOelectronics@... wrote:
Thanks for the longer scan
Taray, but please don't hesitate to post? shorter scans with lower peak
heights like you did yesterday.
This is good practice and
a source of discussion.
Basically that's how I
learned, then improved all aspects of amateur scanning with whatever equipment
I owned at the time.? Now I think my scans deserve the long time frames of
days time, but this only in the last few weeks.
From: "taray singh via
groups.io" <sukhjez@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2020
10:59:12 PM
Subject: Re: [XRF] Xrf timing belt
Dude
Yes I was expecting that ha ha
Could have done a longer scan but I was running out of time
yesterday.
I
acquired a cartoon of my car disposable parts goodies??late
yesterday.
They
consist of used brake pads ,fan belt??plus
tensioner and the timing belt assembly.
The
timing belt components are belt and multiple pulleys.Changing timing belt means
replacing the the whole assembly .
After
noting the xrf results,I was doing some investigative xrf of the other
components??to
explain my findings.
The
metal??pulleys???also had
iron and zinc.
Also
checked out sometimes zinc is added to the oil used to lubricate certain timing
belt systems.
Initially
thought there was some contamination from nearby structures.
But this
was ruled out
Car
mechanics is very confusing too me especially when it comes to tensioners and
lubricant oils on the timing belt.
Preliminary
impression was the zinc and iron could have rubbed??off on
the??old timing belt and got impregnated as silly as it may sound.
After I
took a closer look at the timing belt ,the pieces of the puzzle started to fit.
I have
some other??parts to
xrf next time like the used???belt
pulleys,brake pads??and
tensioners which are very metallic indeed.
Here is
longer scan of the timing belt
Taray
?
On Sunday, December 6, 2020, 6:26 AM, Dude
<dfemer@...> wrote:
You ID’d
only the very strongest peak and at only 7 total counts some would argue that
is insufficient to make a claim considering close ?overlap and confirming
with secondary peaks . What about the more subtle peaks that are going to take
a much longer time to develop? Use longer count times and find out what you’re
missing or not.
Dud
?
?
?
HI guys
Before doing this xrf .I knew little about timing belts and how they actually
function.
I thought made of just plain rubber or something like that until my car timing
belt almost snapped on the freeway weeks ago.
Replaced a new one together with the full timing belt kit.
Kept the old stuff for xrf.
Xrf was pretty short because? the peaks were appearing and therefore I
decided no need for a longer scan.
Xrf with Am 241 show iron and zinc peaks.
On further reading noted that these belts are made of rubber reinforced with
fibreglass,steel or neoprene.
Most likely the iron is in the cords and zinc as neoprene in the rubber
Pics are for a section of the timing belt exposing the cords and mca .
Thanks
Taray
?
?
|
" In my attempt to take a snapshot of the oil,I spilled some on the floor and on??my pants."
From: "taray singh via groups.io" <sukhjez@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2020 10:06:38 PM Subject: Re: [XRF] Xrf timing belt
Dude I did an xrf scan on my red transmission oil. Sampling was repacking on??a thin kitchen plastic . Recently learned that these engine oils??have a color coding system Various additives such as P ,Ca,Mg,Zn in ppm doses . P is usually the highest followed by Zn in new oil. But old oil with wear and tear several other metals get added such as Al,Cr,Fe ,Cu ,Ag and Sn sometimes as metal chips in old engines .P drops in old oil but it is not measurable here anyway. The scan was hesitantly stopped cos I noticed some??potential heating issues on my detector? I need to improve my ventilation to promote heat loss . ?I don’t think this transmission oil is gonna ignite when in contact with 59 keV gamma rays. Anyway the scan results are rather flat? But if stretch our imagination a bit ,there could be Zn peak? I guess a used oil will probably reveal better results??. In my attempt to take a snapshot of the oil,I spilled some on the floor and on??my pants.Dealing with oils is a messy job for some? Taray
On Monday, December 7, 2020, 3:03 AM, GEOelectronics@... wrote: PS on the thermal, it is OK to put a small fan nearby to help cool the body.?
Later we will work on a simple heatsink for the case.......Fins are good, not much heat to transfrer to air about 1 Watt
From: "taray singh via groups.io" <sukhjez@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2020 10:14:34 AM Subject: Re: [XRF] Xrf timing belt
Geo Today I noticed during a long??daytime scan,the temperature at the back on the extreme left was rising about 8 degrees celsius??near the USB port. Elsewhere it is usually less than 3 or 4 degrees max But the temperature on system is normal on the display screen?
Ok let’s get back to automotive xrf Next item is used disc brakes The xrf elements detected is impressive. Metals detected are Titanium,iron,copper ,zirconium and barium .Barium and??graphite? ??form the pads. Taray
On Sunday, December 6, 2020, 11:27 PM, GEOelectronics@... wrote: Thanks for the longer scan Taray, but please don't hesitate to post? shorter scans with lower peak heights like you did yesterday. This is good practice and a source of discussion.
Basically that's how I learned, then improved all aspects of amateur scanning with whatever equipment I owned at the time.? Now I think my scans deserve the long time frames of days time, but this only in the last few weeks.
Geo
From: "taray singh via groups.io" <sukhjez@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2020 10:59:12 PM Subject: Re: [XRF] Xrf timing belt
Dude Yes I was expecting that ha ha Could have done a longer scan but I was running out of time yesterday. I acquired a cartoon of my car disposable parts goodies??late yesterday. They consist of used brake pads ,fan belt??plus tensioner and the timing belt assembly. The timing belt components are belt and multiple pulleys.Changing timing belt means replacing the the whole assembly . After noting the xrf results,I was doing some investigative xrf of the other components??to explain my findings. The metal??pulleys???also had iron and zinc. Also checked out sometimes zinc is added to the oil used to lubricate certain timing belt systems. Initially thought there was some contamination from nearby structures. But this was ruled out Car mechanics is very confusing too me especially when it comes to tensioners and lubricant oils on the timing belt. Preliminary impression was the zinc and iron could have rubbed??off on the??old timing belt and got impregnated as silly as it may sound. After I took a closer look at the timing belt ,the pieces of the puzzle started to fit. I have some other??parts to xrf next time like the used???belt pulleys,brake pads??and tensioners which are very metallic indeed. Here is longer scan of the timing belt Taray
On Sunday, December 6, 2020, 6:26 AM, Dude <dfemer@...> wrote:
You ID’d only the very strongest
peak and at only 7 total counts some would argue that is insufficient to make a
claim considering close ?overlap and confirming with secondary peaks . What
about the more subtle peaks that are going to take a much longer time to develop?
Use longer count times and find out what you’re missing or not.
Dud
?
?
?
HI guys
Before doing this xrf .I knew little about timing belts and how they actually
function.
I thought made of just plain rubber or something like that until my car timing
belt almost snapped on the freeway weeks ago.
Replaced a new one together with the full timing belt kit.
Kept the old stuff for xrf.
Xrf was pretty short because? the peaks were appearing and therefore I
decided no need for a longer scan.
Xrf with Am 241 show iron and zinc peaks.
On further reading noted that these belts are made of rubber reinforced with
fibreglass,steel or neoprene.
Most likely the iron is in the cords and zinc as neoprene in the rubber
Pics are for a section of the timing belt exposing the cords and mca .
Thanks
Taray
|
" In my attempt to take a snapshot of the oil, I spilled some on the floor and on??my pants."
Had to laugh a little.
|
Yes I too just re-read the Los Alamos Primer Steve.
So far the mention of gold in the gadget eludes me but the mention of gold-leaf neutron detectors showed up.
Nonetheless, our all-metal pieces and our Red Trinitite are good samples to use in the investigation of ordinary green Trinitite.
A deep dive on my most active all metal piece has shown there are indeed traces of Eu and Ba-133 but the ratio is super low compared to the average green Trin. Just above the BLD levels, but precisely at the correct energies.
Getting rid of those nuisance peaks makes spotting the Pu y and X Ray peaks much easier too (and these are considerable).
I'm still puzzled by the clear Pb Ka1, Kb1 and other X-Rays. So far only U-235 fits the profile, but the usual 185.7 Gamma Ray is BLD (below detection limit).
Geo
From: "WILLIAM S Dubyk" <sdubyk@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2020 9:38:34 PM Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
According to the Serber paper, gold was one of the top candidates for a tamper material. I don't think gold would be something normally analyzed for when studying trinitite, so who knows?
Gold?
hmmmmmmmm.... one reference mentions the quantity of gold that was used in the gadget, not something we normally think about.
That would be quite the find.
From: "SCOTT CAMPBELL" <bchhunter98@...>
To: [email protected], "WILLIAM S Dubyk" <sdubyk@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2020 6:13:59 PM
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
Steve,
That indeed is a good read, thank you. I have a piece of Red that has a chuck of what look like gold, shiny and not formed like the typical copper spheres. I will find and post a picture...has many many
spheres on surface
Scott
On 12/06/2020 6:42 PM WILLIAM S Dubyk <sdubyk@...> wrote:
?
?
Attached is a good paper that goes into some detail about the metallic inclusions in trinitite.
?
Steve
?
?
?
"Geo,
I've begun to think that all the Red varieties contain many of these metallic spheres,"
?
PS the other Red one in my collection came from the same collector, and shows nothing inside at least noting large
enough to notice
?
?
?
Geo
?
From: "SCOTT CAMPBELL" <bchhunter98@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2020 4:16:49 PM
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
?
Geo,
I've begun to think that all the Red varieties contain many of these metallic spheres, I found a piece that was pulverized in my sample...and held within it many colored balls...that separated themselves.
I absolutely love taking, seeing quality photos of the beauty of Trinitite.
Scott
On 12/06/2020 4:28 PM geoelectronics@... wrote:
?
?
Inside pictures of the Red Trinitite that has? a partially exposed metal ball. That whole piece is peppered with spheres and blobs. This is the section that has the largest, which is also the partially exposed one.
Geo
|
Dude I did an xrf scan on my red transmission oil. Sampling was repacking on??a thin kitchen plastic . Recently learned that these engine oils??have a color coding system Various additives such as P ,Ca,Mg,Zn in ppm doses . P is usually the highest followed by Zn in new oil. But old oil with wear and tear several other metals get added such as Al,Cr,Fe ,Cu ,Ag and Sn sometimes as metal chips in old engines .P drops in old oil but it is not measurable here anyway. The scan was hesitantly stopped cos I noticed some??potential heating issues on my detector? I need to improve my ventilation to promote heat loss . ?I don’t think this transmission oil is gonna ignite when in contact with 59 keV gamma rays. Anyway the scan results are rather flat? But if stretch our imagination a bit ,there could be Zn peak? I guess a used oil will probably reveal better results??. In my attempt to take a snapshot of the oil,I spilled some on the floor and on??my pants.Dealing with oils is a messy job for some? Taray
On Monday, December 7, 2020, 3:03 AM, GEOelectronics@... wrote: PS on the thermal, it is OK to put a small fan nearby to help cool the body.?
Later we will work on a simple heatsink for the case.......Fins are good, not much heat to transfrer to air about 1 Watt
From: "taray singh via groups.io" <sukhjez@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2020 10:14:34 AM Subject: Re: [XRF] Xrf timing belt
Geo Today I noticed during a long??daytime scan,the temperature at the back on the extreme left was rising about 8 degrees celsius??near the USB port. Elsewhere it is usually less than 3 or 4 degrees max But the temperature on system is normal on the display screen?
Ok let’s get back to automotive xrf Next item is used disc brakes The xrf elements detected is impressive. Metals detected are Titanium,iron,copper ,zirconium and barium .Barium and??graphite? ??form the pads. Taray
On Sunday, December 6, 2020, 11:27 PM, GEOelectronics@... wrote: Thanks for the longer scan Taray, but please don't hesitate to post? shorter scans with lower peak heights like you did yesterday. This is good practice and a source of discussion.
Basically that's how I learned, then improved all aspects of amateur scanning with whatever equipment I owned at the time.? Now I think my scans deserve the long time frames of days time, but this only in the last few weeks.
Geo
From: "taray singh via groups.io" <sukhjez@...> To: [email protected]Sent: Saturday, December 5, 2020 10:59:12 PM Subject: Re: [XRF] Xrf timing belt
Dude Yes I was expecting that ha ha Could have done a longer scan but I was running out of time yesterday. I acquired a cartoon of my car disposable parts goodies??late yesterday. They consist of used brake pads ,fan belt??plus tensioner and the timing belt assembly. The timing belt components are belt and multiple pulleys.Changing timing belt means replacing the the whole assembly . After noting the xrf results,I was doing some investigative xrf of the other components??to explain my findings. The metal??pulleys???also had iron and zinc. Also checked out sometimes zinc is added to the oil used to lubricate certain timing belt systems. Initially thought there was some contamination from nearby structures. But this was ruled out Car mechanics is very confusing too me especially when it comes to tensioners and lubricant oils on the timing belt. Preliminary impression was the zinc and iron could have rubbed??off on the??old timing belt and got impregnated as silly as it may sound. After I took a closer look at the timing belt ,the pieces of the puzzle started to fit. I have some other??parts to xrf next time like the used???belt pulleys,brake pads??and tensioners which are very metallic indeed. Here is longer scan of the timing belt Taray
On Sunday, December 6, 2020, 6:26 AM, Dude <dfemer@...> wrote:
You ID’d only the very strongest
peak and at only 7 total counts some would argue that is insufficient to make a
claim considering close ?overlap and confirming with secondary peaks . What
about the more subtle peaks that are going to take a much longer time to develop?
Use longer count times and find out what you’re missing or not.
Dud
?
?
?
HI guys
Before doing this xrf .I knew little about timing belts and how they actually
function.
I thought made of just plain rubber or something like that until my car timing
belt almost snapped on the freeway weeks ago.
Replaced a new one together with the full timing belt kit.
Kept the old stuff for xrf.
Xrf was pretty short because? the peaks were appearing and therefore I
decided no need for a longer scan.
Xrf with Am 241 show iron and zinc peaks.
On further reading noted that these belts are made of rubber reinforced with
fibreglass,steel or neoprene.
Most likely the iron is in the cords and zinc as neoprene in the rubber
Pics are for a section of the timing belt exposing the cords and mca .
Thanks
Taray
|
According to the Serber paper, gold was one of the top candidates for a tamper material. I don't think gold would be something normally analyzed for when studying trinitite, so who knows?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Gold?
hmmmmmmmm.... one reference mentions the quantity of gold that was used in the gadget, not something we normally think about.
That would be quite the find.
From: "SCOTT CAMPBELL" <bchhunter98@...>
To: [email protected], "WILLIAM S Dubyk" <sdubyk@...>
Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2020 6:13:59 PM
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
Steve,
That indeed is a good read, thank you. I have a piece of Red that has a chuck of what look like gold, shiny and not formed like the typical copper spheres. I will find and post a picture...has many many
spheres on surface
Scott
On 12/06/2020 6:42 PM WILLIAM S Dubyk <sdubyk@...> wrote:
?
?
Attached is a good paper that goes into some detail about the metallic inclusions in trinitite.
?
Steve
?
?
?
"Geo,
I've begun to think that all the Red varieties contain many of these metallic spheres,"
?
PS the other Red one in my collection came from the same collector, and shows nothing inside at least noting large
enough to notice
?
?
?
Geo
?
From: "SCOTT CAMPBELL" <bchhunter98@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2020 4:16:49 PM
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
?
Geo,
I've begun to think that all the Red varieties contain many of these metallic spheres, I found a piece that was pulverized in my sample...and held within it many colored balls...that separated themselves.
I absolutely love taking, seeing quality photos of the beauty of Trinitite.
Scott
On 12/06/2020 4:28 PM geoelectronics@... wrote:
?
?
Inside pictures of the Red Trinitite that has? a partially exposed metal ball. That whole piece is peppered with spheres and blobs. This is the section that has the largest, which is also the partially exposed one.
Geo
|
Gold?
hmmmmmmmm.... one reference mentions the quantity of gold that was used in the gadget, not something we normally think about.
That would be quite the find.
From: "SCOTT CAMPBELL" <bchhunter98@...> To: [email protected], "WILLIAM S Dubyk" <sdubyk@...> Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2020 6:13:59 PM Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
Steve,
That indeed is a good read, thank you. I have a piece of Red that has a chuck of what look like gold, shiny and not formed like the typical copper spheres. I will find and post a picture...has many many spheres on surface
Scott
On 12/06/2020 6:42 PM WILLIAM S Dubyk <sdubyk@...> wrote:
?
?
Attached is a good paper that goes into some detail about the metallic inclusions in trinitite.
?
Steve
?
?
?
"Geo,
I've begun to think that all the Red varieties contain many of these metallic spheres,"
?
PS the other Red one in my collection came from the same collector, and shows nothing inside at least noting large enough to notice
?
?
?
Geo
?
From: "SCOTT CAMPBELL" <bchhunter98@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2020 4:16:49 PM
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite
?
Geo,
I've begun to think that all the Red varieties contain many of these metallic spheres, I found a piece that was pulverized in my sample...and held within it many colored balls...that separated themselves.
I absolutely love taking, seeing quality photos of the beauty of Trinitite.
Scott
On 12/06/2020 4:28 PM geoelectronics@... wrote:
?
?
Inside pictures of the Red Trinitite that has? a partially exposed metal ball. That whole piece is peppered with spheres and blobs. This is the section that has the largest, which is also the partially exposed one.
Geo
|
