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Re: Trinitite

 

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 01:23 PM, <GEOelectronics@...> wrote:
.mca is private, not to be published, but I'll send it by offlist email to you.
?
Geo
?
?
It's on the way, any corrections, new ideas, comments welcomed.
Geo
?


Re: Trinitite

 

Steve's piece is the "Lump" and is identified as such on the .mca 's?

I own the Blob and the triangle as shown stacked in the pictures. They are solid iron (mild steel) all the way through. There is no sand on them at all. What there is on them is metal, melted. If there is any Eu, it is not evident? to the eye but maybe in the scan I don't know.

.mca is private, not to be published, but I'll send it by offlist email to you.

Geo



----- Original Message -----
From: Dude <dfemer@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 14:00:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite

Geo,

Please
send the MCA files, pictures are pretty but you can¡¯t interpret anything from
them other than there¡¯s no Fe at the cursor in this case. Is this the Fe Blob, Steve¡¯s
piece we¡¯re talking about, or some other piece? What we are looking to
determine, is there self excited Fe XRF from the iron tower piece of Trinitite
or is it just an artifact of an external Am source¡­or both.? This applies only to
that iron rich piece not other samples. The other question I had with these
pieces is are they magnetic? What is the volume and weight (i.e. are they
mostly Fe or glassy material) What I¡¯m wondering, without seeing them, are they
metal pieces with splash Trinitite on them which I have seen at numerous sites
or are they a more Trinitite type material.

Dud

?

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of GEOelectronics@...
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 10:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite

?

Iron Self XRF in Trinitite follow-up- as expected ordinary
Trinitite from the ground shows little to no self excited iron XRF:







Re: Trinitite

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Geo,

Please send the MCA files, pictures are pretty but you can¡¯t interpret anything from them other than there¡¯s no Fe at the cursor in this case. Is this the Fe Blob, Steve¡¯s piece we¡¯re talking about, or some other piece? What we are looking to determine, is there self excited Fe XRF from the iron tower piece of Trinitite or is it just an artifact of an external Am source¡­or both.? This applies only to that iron rich piece not other samples. The other question I had with these pieces is are they magnetic? What is the volume and weight (i.e. are they mostly Fe or glassy material) What I¡¯m wondering, without seeing them, are they metal pieces with splash Trinitite on them which I have seen at numerous sites or are they a more Trinitite type material.

Dud

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of GEOelectronics@...
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 10:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite

?

Iron Self XRF in Trinitite follow-up- as expected ordinary Trinitite from the ground shows little to no self excited iron XRF:
Red-Trinitite-Minimal-Fe-XRF.png.png


Re: Trinitite

 

Iron Self XRF in Trinitite follow-up- as expected ordinary Trinitite from the ground shows little to no self excited iron XRF:
Red-Trinitite-Minimal-Fe-XRF.png.png


Re: Trinitite

 

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 09:25 PM, Dude wrote:

So what does the blob trinitite show when it¡¯s just self excited? Why do some show Fe and others don¡¯t?

Dud

?

OK. The blob is solid, actually 1930's grade "mild steel". It's the top piece in this photo:
Towermetal.jpg

When excited by a tube and XRF is measured, you see iron:
Towermetal-XRF..png

When it is Gamma Scanned with a low energy probe 6.4 Fe Self-XRF highlighted?by cursor:
TowerMetal-Blob-Self-XRF-Fe.png
?Note- Since this sample is solid metal and the inclusions are all on the outside, some Fe XRF might not be unusual.

Geo












Re: Trinitite

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Pb and Fe alright.? So what does the blob trinitite show when it¡¯s just self excited? Why do some show Fe and others don¡¯t?

Dud

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of GEOelectronics@...
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 3:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite

?

and a workup from that old .mca
The stuff between the Ag peaks is mostly junk from the Am exciter.

Ag-Pure-Stamp--3600Secs-2-ROIs-LOG-X-Rays-Notes-C-PUB.png

Geo


Re: Trinitite

 

and a workup from that old .mca
The stuff between the Ag peaks is mostly junk from the Am exciter.

Ag-Pure-Stamp--3600Secs-2-ROIs-LOG-X-Rays-Notes-C-PUB.png

Geo


Re: Trinitite

 

a better scan, full 3600 seconds this one:


Re: Trinitite

 

Here you go Dud, 2014, pure metal (99.999%) Silver. SDD Detector, 8XAL @ 22.5 degrees

Ag-Pure-Stamp--3600Secs.png


Re: Trinitite

 

OK I understand. Yes there are things that show up from the exciter for sure.... Np X-Rays, 59.5, gold or Palladium for one, then the stainless steel components as well as the shielding, but they are small by comparison if you set it up right.

Since the Am is pointing the other way from the opening to the sensor, it's hard but not impossible to shield against most of that, but there's always some backscatter.

Of course if doing simple non excited X-Ray spec of a sample that's not radioactive there's nearly nothing (except individual random Cosmic Ray hits).

Doing exciter XRF?on a radioactive sample is a different can of worms. Not something I do often, except for the odd ore, but Charles does that procedure almost exclusively.

Nice thing about a low-energy-only probe- they don't pick up much from the environment.

Geo


Re: Trinitite

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

No just the Am source into a pure metal that is free of Fe to see if the Fe peak is due to the am source. Then try the same with no sample just the source? It needs to be done with the same source that is showing the Fe peak.?

Dud

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of GEOelectronics@...
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 11:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite

?

"Has anyone ever run a background count into a pure metal or silica glass to see what the Am / Fe source contribution is or isn¡¯t?."

?

Dud do you mean a basic no source, shielded background test of a Si-Pin?

?

Geo

?

----- Original Message -----
From: Dude <dfemer@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 13:39:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite

?

?

Has
anyone ever run a background count into a pure metal or silica glass to see
what the Am / Fe source contribution is or isn¡¯t?. Has anyone run a full energy
gamma spec on the piece? What kind of activity are these pieces showing?

°Â±ð¡¯°ù±ð
also looking at different pieces and different sources so try a self excitation
rather than an active Am source and see what that looks like. It¡¯ll need a
really long count time I think..

Dud

?

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mike L.
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite

?

Geo,

?


I think the Fe in Charles spectrum? was probably from the Am241
button.? ?I believe all the U x-rays are from Pu (mostly Pu239)
decay.? I don't see any direct Fe x-rays from the tower and there was a
lot more material there than the U tamper.? Just my thinking.? ?

?

?

?

Regards,

?


Mike L.

?

?

?

?

?


Re: Trinitite

 

"Has anyone ever run a background count into a pure metal or silica glass to see what the Am / Fe source contribution is or isn¡¯t?."

Dud do you mean a basic no source, shielded background test of a Si-Pin?

Geo

----- Original Message -----
From: Dude <dfemer@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 13:39:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite


Has
anyone ever run a background count into a pure metal or silica glass to see
what the Am / Fe source contribution is or isn¡¯t?. Has anyone run a full energy
gamma spec on the piece? What kind of activity are these pieces showing?

°Â±ð¡¯°ù±ð
also looking at different pieces and different sources so try a self excitation
rather than an active Am source and see what that looks like. It¡¯ll need a
really long count time I think..

Dud

?

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mike L.
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite

?

Geo,



I think the Fe in Charles spectrum? was probably from the Am241
button.? ?I believe all the U x-rays are from Pu (mostly Pu239)
decay.? I don't see any direct Fe x-rays from the tower and there was a
lot more material there than the U tamper.? Just my thinking.? ?




Regards,



Mike L.







Re: Trinitite

 

Pa-234m? X-Ray Emissions
? Intensity ? ? Energy? ? Assignment?
? ? ?(%)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? (keV)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
?
? ? 0.2500 ? ? ? ? ? ? 13.618? ? ? ?U La1
? ? 0.2300 ? ? 98.434? ? ? ?U Ka1
? ? 0.2000 ? ? 17.222? ? ? ?U Lb1
?


Re: Trinitite

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Has anyone ever run a background count into a pure metal or silica glass to see what the Am / Fe source contribution is or isn¡¯t?. Has anyone run a full energy gamma spec on the piece? What kind of activity are these pieces showing?

°Â±ð¡¯°ù±ð also looking at different pieces and different sources so try a self excitation rather than an active Am source and see what that looks like. It¡¯ll need a really long count time I think..

Dud

?

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mike L.
Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite

?

Geo,

I think the Fe in Charles spectrum? was probably from the Am241 button.? ?I believe all the U x-rays are from Pu (mostly Pu239) decay.? I don't see any direct Fe x-rays from the tower and there was a lot more material there than the U tamper.? Just my thinking.? ?


Regards,

Mike L.


Re: Trinitite

 

Ingrowth of U-238 progeny over 75 years.

We mentioned in an earlier post that they second source of the same exact Uranium L-X-Rays in Trinitite is the creation of?U-234 by the U-238 decay chain.
?Here are the results of a calculation I ran including the isotopic ratio of U-238/U-235.

The important line is "Pa-234m: 123.2e-3 Bq " which of course is what created U-234 and by self -XRF gives us the U L X-Rays. Converting Bq to disintegrations? per minute (DPM) we get ~7.4/10ug.
of U-238 in Trinitite. The Mass Spectrometer reports can be used to calculate the ratio of raw Trinitite tested to U-238 weight.


Material Input:
10 ?g U of natural uranium? (pure U nat)??
?
Activities after 75 years:
---------------------------
U-238: 123.5e-3 Bq?
Th-234: 123.5e-3 Bq?
Pa-234m: 123.2e-3 Bq?
U-234: 123.5e-3 Bq?
Th-230: 83.37e-6 Bq?
Ra-226: 1.340e-6 Bq?
Rn-222: 1.339e-6 Bq?
Po-218: 1.339e-6 Bq?
Pb-214: 1.339e-6 Bq?
Bi-214: 1.339e-6 Bq?
Po-214: 1.339e-6 Bq?
Pb-210: 636.4e-9 Bq?
Bi-210: 635.9e-9 Bq?
Po-210: 624.1e-9 Bq?
At-218: 267.9e-12 Bq?
Pa-234: 407.3e-6 Bq?
---------------------------
U-235: 5.687e-3 Bq?
Th-231: 5.687e-3 Bq?
Pa-231: 9.018e-6 Bq?
Ac-227: 5.589e-6 Bq?
Th-227: 5.503e-6 Bq?
Ra-223: 5.576e-6 Bq?
Rn-219: 5.576e-6 Bq?
Po-215: 5.576e-6 Bq?
Pb-211: 5.576e-6 Bq?
Bi-211: 5.576e-6 Bq?
Tl-207: 5.560e-6 Bq?
Po-211: 15.61e-9 Bq?
Fr-223: 77.12e-9 Bq?
---------------------------
?
Total activities after 75 years:
?
U-238 Series: 494.3e-3 Bq?
U-235 Series: 11.42e-3 Bq?
---------------------------
Grand Total: 505.8e-3 Bq?


Re: Trinitite

 

Looks good Mike. Excellent work and Charles' software is beautiful

?
?
?
If you can check the peak height count # of that 17.xxx X-Ray from the Trinitite, then do a run with same calibration on Am only, run it until the 17.xxx is same count #, then post the .mca- no rush. The Angle between 59.5 and 17.xxx (theta) is of importance
We are going to compare the angle of?the 59.5 gamma ray to 17.xxx X-Ray? in both.
?
Picture attached is your .mca in DPPMCA software, Linear display and Peak Search Auto Isotope ID with Pu-Decay Library (also attached).
?
Geo

MikeL-Tinitite-LINEAR-71hR-10Oct2020.png
?


Re: Trinitite

 

Slightly better.

Mike L.


Re: Trinitite

 

I think all the lines are associated with nuclide decay.? No direct florescence.? I think.

Mike L.


Re: Trinitite

 

Good, will watch for that Charles.

Thanks?
Geo

----- Original Message -----
From: Charles David Young <charlesdavidyoung@...>
To: XRF <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, 10 Oct 2020 12:30:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [XRF] Trinitite

Mike Loughlin has already done this, albeit not with the exact same specimen.? It is a specimen that we "collected" at the same time.? I am sure he will post his results soon.

Charles

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 8:33 AM <GEOelectronics@...> wrote:
On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 03:11 PM, Charles David Young wrote:
Here is my latest best effort with trinitite using Am241 as an exciter.
?
Only 3 elements really stand out: Fe U Ba.? There are other possibilities such as Sn and Cs but I can't say for sure without a much longer run.? Note that many of the peaks are to be ignored because they come from the Am241 and the Pb shield.
?
Charles

Charles- Great set of scans of Trinitite XRF! Thanks.? A favor? No rush and only if/when you can. Please rerun same test, same conditions, time,? and sample, but this time no exciter? Let's explore excited U L X-Rays? vs. those from Pu-239 decay.

Geo










Re: Trinitite

 

Mike Loughlin has already done this, albeit not with the exact same specimen.? It is a specimen that we "collected" at the same time.? I am sure he will post his results soon.

Charles


On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 8:33 AM <GEOelectronics@...> wrote:
On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 03:11 PM, Charles David Young wrote:
Here is my latest best effort with trinitite using Am241 as an exciter.
?
Only 3 elements really stand out: Fe U Ba.? There are other possibilities such as Sn and Cs but I can't say for sure without a much longer run.? Note that many of the peaks are to be ignored because they come from the Am241 and the Pb shield.
?
Charles
Charles- Great set of scans of Trinitite XRF! Thanks.? A favor? No rush and only if/when you can. Please rerun same test, same conditions, time,? and sample, but this time no exciter? Let's explore excited U L X-Rays? vs. those from Pu-239 decay.

Geo