#3291

Dont really know what to use to clean for example glass before aluminize it but have heard that different types of chemicals will help but dont really know the name of these if chemicals really are used. Ordinary dishwash is the first of all to use but this is ofcourse far from enough but its the things after this that im after, anybody know what to use to get a 100%+ clean surface? Rather not any exotic expensive chemicals but more or less common household chemicals if there might be any that can be used for this.

Or if here might be someone that happen to know any store that sell chemicals or anything for this and that will ship worldwide would be great.

Regards Henry

#3292

i used hydro chloric acid (HCl) to clean the glass, the rinse in distilled water and dry with a clean cloth. i used a vacuum deposition method called DC cathodic sputtering, to plate aluminum, silver, gold, what ever metal. there is another method called evaporization which also works. mark w

Show quoted text

--- On Sat, 10/17/09, henry_3507 <kmnhij@...> wrote:

From: henry_3507
Subject: [VacuumX] What to use to make glass really clean before aluminize?
To: vacuumx@...
Date: Saturday, October 17, 2009, 12:28 PM

?

Dont really know what to use to clean for example glass before aluminize it but have heard that different types of chemicals will help but dont really know the name of these if chemicals really are used. Ordinary dishwash is the first of all to use but this is ofcourse far from enough but its the things after this that im after, anybody know what to use to get a 100%+ clean surface? Rather not any exotic expensive chemicals but more or less common household chemicals if there might be any that can be used for this.

Or if here might be someone that happen to know any store that sell chemicals or anything for this and that will ship worldwide would be great.

Regards Henry

#3293

first step, bare fingers, water, and dish soap with no additives. You can feel any grit or pieces of insect wings, etc. Then rinse, and use more water and dish soap and cotton balls. Then rinse, use powdered chalk, water, surgical gloves, and cotton balls. Then rinse really, really well with lots more water and cotton balls and gloves. Then wipe dry with paper towels. Then use something static-free to get off any towel dust. Then in the vacuum chamber, do ion bombardment.

Guy Brandenburg, Washington, DC ?
My home page on astronomy, mathematics, education:
http://home.earthlink.net/~gfbranden/GFB_Home_Page.html
or else ??http://tinyurl.com/r6fh2
=============================
"American economic competitiveness with?Japan?and other nations is to a considerable degree a function of monetary, trade, and industrial policy, and of decisions made by the President and Congress, the?Federal Reserve Board, and the Federal Departments of the Treasury, Commerce, and Labor. Therefore, to conclude that problems of international competitiveness can be solved by?educational reform, especially?educational reform?defined solely as school reform, is not merely utopian and millennialist, it is at best a foolish and at worst a crass effort to direct attention away from those truly responsible for doing something about competitiveness and to lay the burden instead on the schools. It is a device that has been used repeatedly in the history of American education."

----?Popular Education?and its Discontents?by Lawrence Arthur Cremin

Show quoted text

--- On Sat, 10/17/09, Mark wrote:

From: Mark
Subject: Re: [VacuumX] What to use to make glass really clean before aluminize?
To: VacuumX@...
Date: Saturday, October 17, 2009, 1:49 PM

?

i used hydro chloric acid (HCl) to clean the glass, the rinse in distilled water and dry with a clean cloth. i used a vacuum deposition method called DC cathodic sputtering, to plate aluminum, silver, gold, what ever metal. there is another method called evaporization which also works. mark w

--- On Sat, 10/17/09, henry_3507 wrote:

From: henry_3507
Subject: [VacuumX] What to use to make glass really clean before aluminize?
To: vacuumx@yahoogroups .com
Date: Saturday, October 17, 2009, 12:28 PM

?

Dont really know what to use to clean for example glass before aluminize it but have heard that different types of chemicals will help but dont really know the name of these if chemicals really are used. Ordinary dishwash is the first of all to use but this is ofcourse far from enough but its the things after this that im after, anybody know what to use to get a 100%+ clean surface? Rather not any exotic expensive chemicals but more or less common household chemicals if there might be any that can be used for this.

Or if here might be someone that happen to know any store that sell chemicals or anything for this and that will ship worldwide would be great.

Regards Henry

James Lerch

#3294

开云体育

My approach is pretty much what Guy described.

Dish soap, tap water, and fingers
Rinse with tap water
Calcium Carbonate (powdered chalk) applied with a round cotton "cosmetic pad" and a fair amount of elbow grease.
3x Rinse with warm tap water while rubbing with cotton pad
One squirt from a distance with Windex window cleaner (no frills blue stuff, avoid the "streak free" versions)
Swirl dry with cotton pads
Final clean with single spritz of Windex ON a cotton pad or lint free cloth (don't spray the mirror).? Rub mirror and observe the "Rainbow" effect behind the wipe, basically this is a form of vapor cleaning..
Once mounted in chamber, dust is removed via air compressor blow gun.?

-- 
Take Care,
James Lerch
 (My helicopter crash videos and stuff)
 (My telescope construction,testing, and coating site)
 (My 15KW generator project)


" Press on: nothing in the world can take the place of perseverance.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. "

#3296

Be careful with blowing off the surface. Most compressors will have oil in the compressed air. You can use tank SCUBA air which is oil free or a with photograpic blow-off can. Also be careful that the blow-off doesn't give a static electric charge on the glass which will attract dust.

You should use an oxygen (actully air) plasma for cleaning the glass in the closed vacuum system.

Some history:

* In 1947 John Strong was charged with the cleaning the 200" Palomar mirror for aluminization. "---- so for the two-hundred inch disk, he planned a new cleaning technique: he would first coat the surface of the disk with a 'special fatty acid compound and precipitated chalk powder.' The precipitated chalk would be wiped off with virgin felt pads, leaving the fatty acid on the surface of the disk. He would then burn the residue of fatty acid off with an oxygen glow, leaving a pristine surface for aluminizing. --- When Strong arrived the 'special fatty acid compound' turned out to be Wildroot Cream Oil hair tonic." From the Perfect Machine: Building the Palomar Telescope, Roland Florence, page 384 (1994)

Don

?

My approach is pretty much what Guy described.

Dish soap, tap water, and fingers
Rinse with tap water
Calcium Carbonate (powdered chalk) applied with a round cotton "cosmetic pad" and a fair amount of elbow grease.
3x Rinse with warm tap water while rubbing with cotton pad
One squirt from a distance with Windex window cleaner (no frills blue stuff, avoid the "streak free" versions)
Swirl dry with cotton pads
Final clean with single spritz of Windex ON a cotton pad or lint free cloth (don't spray the mirror).? Rub mirror and observe the "Rainbow" effect behind the wipe, basically this is a form of vapor cleaning..
Once mounted in chamber, dust is removed via air compressor blow gun.

-- Take Care, James Lerch(My helicopter crash videos and stuff)(My telescope construction,testing, and coating site)(My 15KW generator project) " Press on: nothing in the world can take the place of perseverance. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. "

--

____________________________________
Donald M. Mattox
Society of Vacuum Coaters
71 Pinon Hill Place NE
Albuquerque, NM? 87122-1914

Telephone 505/856-7188
FAX 505/856-6716
E-mail donmattox@...
WebSite? http://www.svc.org

James Lerch

#3297

I used to worry about oil / water contamination in the air compressor feed.  What I've found is once the tank is pressurized and allowed to settle for 30 minutes or so, the oil and water settle out  into the bottom of the tank.  I've used the compressor to blow dry optics, even on rainy days.  You just have to give it time for the compressed air to cool back to room temp, then everything works out fine.   (Your mileage may vary!)

SVC wrote:

Show quoted text

Be careful with blowing off the surface. Most compressors will have oil in the compressed air. You can use tank SCUBA air which is oil free or a with photograpic blow-off can. Also be careful that the blow-off doesn't give a static electric charge on the glass which will attract dust.
You should use an oxygen (actully air) plasma for cleaning the glass in the closed vacuum system.
Some history:
* In 1947 John Strong was charged with the cleaning the 200" Palomar mirror for aluminization. "---- so for the two-hundred inch disk, he planned a new cleaning technique: he would first coat the surface of the disk with a 'special fatty acid compound and precipitated chalk powder.' The precipitated chalk would be wiped off with virgin felt pads, leaving the fatty acid on the surface of the disk. He would then burn the residue of fatty acid off with an oxygen glow, leaving a pristine surface for aluminizing. --- When Strong arrived the 'special fatty acid compound' turned out to be Wildroot Cream Oil hair tonic." 
From the/ Perfect Machine: Building the Palomar Telescope/, Roland Florence, page 384 (1994)

Don



 


My approach is pretty much what Guy described.

    * Dish soap, tap water, and fingers
    * Rinse with tap water
    * Calcium Carbonate (powdered chalk) applied with a round cotton
      "cosmetic pad" and a fair amount of elbow grease.
    * 3x Rinse with warm tap water while rubbing with cotton pad
    * One squirt from a distance with Windex window cleaner (no
      frills blue stuff, avoid the "streak free" versions)
    * Swirl dry with cotton pads
    * Final clean with single spritz of Windex ON a cotton pad or
      lint free cloth (don't spray the mirror).  Rub mirror and
      observe the "Rainbow" effect behind the wipe, basically this is
      a form of vapor cleaning..
    * Once mounted in chamber, dust is removed via air compressor
      blow gun.


--
Take Care,
James Lerch
 (My helicopter crash videos and stuff)
 (My telescope construction,testing, and coating site)
 (My 15KW generator project)


" Press on: nothing in the world can take the place of perseverance.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. "


-- 
  ____________________________________
Donald M. Mattox
Society of Vacuum Coaters
71 Pinon Hill Place NE
Albuquerque, NM  87122-1914

Telephone 505/856-7188
FAX 505/856-6716
E-mail donmattox@...
WebSite  

-- 
Take Care,
James Lerch
 (My helicopter crash videos and stuff)
 (My telescope construction,testing, and coating site)
 (My 15KW generator project)


" Press on: nothing in the world can take the place of perseverance.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. "

#3298

James,INTERESTING! Do you use glow discharge cleaning in your deposition system?

Don

I used to worry about oil / water contamination in the air compressor
feed.  What I've found is once the tank is pressurized and allowed to
settle for 30 minutes or so, the oil and water settle out  into the
bottom of the tank.  I've used the compressor to blow dry optics, even
on rainy days.  You just have to give it time for the compressed air to
cool back to room temp, then everything works out fine.   (Your mileage
may vary!)
-- 
____________________________________
Donald M. Mattox
Society of Vacuum Coaters
71 Pinon Hill Place NE
Albuquerque, NM  87122-1914

Telephone 505/856-7188
FAX 505/856-6716
E-mail donmattox@...
WebSite  

Aurigema, Andrew N. (KSC-ASRC-491)[ASRC AEROSPACE]

#3299

I am sure James will perk up and answer this, but I wanted to chime in also.

I built a larger system than James did, but he helped me get mine going.  As I recall, he had plasma cleaning system down in the well that lead to his diffusion pump.  I think this worked great for him.  I put my plasma makers away from the throat of my diff pumps, more like in the main chamber.  Mine make soot in the chamber.  I dont use mine anymore because they put soot on everything.  I am not sure what is going on with that as I use the insanely expensive silicone oil that is not supposed to back stream and water cooled re-condensers to make sure no oil stream gets into the chamber.  In any case, some oil mist is getting into the chamber and if the plasma is on, it flashes to soot and gets everywhere.

I have a guess but it just a guess.  Putting the plasma generators down in the well near the diff pump effectively flash incinerates any molecules of oil coming out of the diff stack.  Maybe they get sucked back down into diff stack and get stuck in the oil.  I really dont know.  I do know that I dont use my 15kv plasma makers anymore.  I get way better aluminum adhesion without them.

I do clean the mirror surface with cerium oxide prior to going in the chamber.  That does wonders in my opinion.

Drew in usually soggy Florida ( east coast )

ps.......... James,  you still want that Bell 47 flight helo ????



________________________________________
From: VacuumX@... [VacuumX@...] On Behalf Of SVC [donmattox@...]
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 9:11 AM
To: VacuumX@...
Subject: Re: [VacuumX] What to use to make glass really clean before aluminize?

James,INTERESTING! Do you use glow discharge cleaning in your deposition system?

Don

I used to worry about oil / water contamination in the air compressor
feed. What I've found is once the tank is pressurized and allowed to
settle for 30 minutes or so, the oil and water settle out into the
bottom of the tank. I've used the compressor to blow dry optics, even
on rainy days. You just have to give it time for the compressed air to
cool back to room temp, then everything works out fine. (Your mileage
may vary!)
--
____________________________________
Donald M. Mattox
Society of Vacuum Coaters
71 Pinon Hill Place NE
Albuquerque, NM 87122-1914

Telephone 505/856-7188
FAX 505/856-6716
E-mail donmattox@...<mailto:donmattox%40svc.org>
WebSite 

James Lerch

#3300

SVC wrote:
James,
    INTERESTING! Do you use glow discharge cleaning in your deposition system?

Don
  I do, a neon sign transformer and a pair tungsten "glow wires"  I'm working on getting some Videos uploaded of the chamber and my version of the coating process. 

-- 
Take Care,
James Lerch
 (My helicopter crash videos and stuff)
 (My telescope construction,testing, and coating site)
 (My 15KW generator project)


" Press on: nothing in the world can take the place of perseverance.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. "

James Lerch

#3301

Aurigema, Andrew N. (KSC-ASRC-491)[ASRC AEROSPACE] wrote:
I am sure James will perk up and answer this, but I wanted to chime in also.

I built a larger system than James did, but he helped me get mine going.  As I recall, he had plasma cleaning system down in the well that lead to his diffusion pump.  Actually, my "glow wires" are on the back wall with the tungstens.  Your probably thinking of the cold trap coil I have on the entry to the diff pump..

Mine make soot in the chamber.  I dont use mine anymore because they put soot on everything.  I am not sure what is going on with that as I use the insanely expensive silicone oil that is not supposed to back stream and water cooled re-condensers to make sure no oil stream gets into the chamber.  In any case, some oil mist is getting into the chamber and if the plasma is on, it flashes to soot and gets everywhere. Do you get soot even if you don't evaporate aluminum?  If oil was back steaming, where ever it landed on a surface would turn black when you evaporate aluminum.  

On only two occasions have I gotten black soot in my chamber.

#1  The time the power went out for 30 seconds.  While the power was out the mechanical pump stopped pumping, but the valve on the diff pump foreline is electrically powered, so it closed and protected the diff pump as designed.   Unfortunately, I didn't think my cunning plan all the way thru.  When the power came back on, the fore line valve opened LONG before the mech pump came back up to speed and effectively sent a slug of diff pump oil vapor backwards into the chamber.  

#2  The other time I got black soot in my chamber was when I got Neosporin Ointment on my philips screw driver, and proceeded to contaminate the tungstens.  It takes only a TINY bit of ointment on a hot filament to make a god forsaken mess. To add insult to injury, I tore the chamber apart, cleaned everything in desperation and re-assembled, only to re-contaminate everything as I put it back together.  

I do clean the mirror surface with cerium oxide prior to going in the chamber.  That does wonders in my opinion.
  CeO "MIGHT" be a problem.  CeO is an abrasive and may actually cause harm to the optical surface (harm you cannot see with out optical testing methods).  CeO applied to a thumb rubbed around the edge of a mirror is an old wives tale on one method to repair a turned down edge.  

Precipitated Calcium Carbonate has  a Mohs Hardness of 3, whereas Cerium oxide has a hardness of 6.  

Drew in usually soggy Florida ( east coast )  
ps.......... James,  you still want that Bell 47 flight helo ????
  Indeed,  I'll probably show up at your place sometime between now and the end of the year with a rebuilt vacuum pump, and a few other toys.  In the mean time, here's a video where I had a full scale MD500 Ag pilot fly my RC heli.  As long as the tail pointed at him, he did ok, I only took control back from him 3 or 4 times! ;-)  This same rig will come with me, so perhaps we can exchage airframe flight time :-)




-- 
Take Care,
James Lerch
 (My helicopter crash videos and stuff)
 (My telescope construction,testing, and coating site)
 (My 15KW generator project)


" Press on: nothing in the world can take the place of perseverance.
Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent.
Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. "