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Hi Jose
In an Ecomm event there is a requirement when sending sensitive messages from police or gov. agencies etc. to send via secure methods.
Is there a secure encryption version of Vara for use on non ham frequencies?
Thanks
Regards Nigel ZL2SEA
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Ham Bands do not allow encryption. The singular exception is Satellite Operation commands.
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From Module 6 of the ARRL EC-016 Course: "In some instances, the served agency may allow you to send certain ¡°sensitive¡± information over more ¡°discrete¡± modes, such as packet or other digital mode such as D-Star, Winlink or PSK 31, but be sure they fully understand that no Amateur mode can be considered truly ¡°secure.¡± The served agency is the ultimate authority on which information can or cannot be sent, and by which modes. You will need to make any agency aware in advance that the security of amateur radio communications for confidentiality can never be guaranteed."
Randy N1VTT
On Mon, Jun 5, 2023 at 10:04?AM Cliff Corcoran < cliffcor@...> wrote: Ham Bands do not allow encryption. The singular exception is Satellite Operation commands.
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He stated ¡°non ham frequencies¡±.
We have DoD customers working with partner countries .. where they want VarAC , VARA HF messaging but with at least AES-256 encryption
73
David E. Theriault
President
4K Solutions, LLC
(706) 593-9070
KO4KHB
SDVOSB (CvE)
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Show quoted text
On Jun 5, 2023, at 8:23 AM, Nigel (ZL2SEA) <zl2sea@...> wrote:
?Hi Jose
In an Ecomm event there is a requirement when sending sensitive messages from police or gov. agencies etc. to send via secure methods.
Is there a secure encryption version of Vara for use on non ham frequencies?
Thanks
Regards Nigel ZL2SEA
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On Mon, Jun 5, 2023 at 04:50 PM, det wrote:
We have DoD customers working with partner countries .. where they want VarAC , VARA HF messaging but with at least AES-256 encryption
Tell them to go and buy a Dragon modem from SCS and use Pactor with AES-256 73 Dave
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If your running in a non ham band, likely the easiest method for encryption would be to run gnupg. Turns it into text that can be sent, but it's secure.
On Mon, Jun 5, 2023 at 04:50 PM, det wrote:
We have DoD customers working with partner countries .. where they want VarAC , VARA HF messaging but with at least AES-256 encryption
Tell them to go and buy a Dragon modem from SCS and use Pactor with AES-256
73 Dave
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I suggest use of PGP for a public encryption method. It is universally available, and mostly understood with little or no additional instruction to use.
VaraC is an amateur radio product.
Not an Everything To Everyone program.
Why over-complicate a wonderful transmission method through a desire to hang another doo-dad onto it.
--
73 de w8nsi Jim
ts-480, ft-857, 75m loop. efhw [40-10], 4btv
ft-818nd, mfj efhw [40-10] for portable
registered Winlink and Vara-modem user
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I meant VARA moden not VaraC. Why add encryption complication to an amateur radio product when there are already easily publicly available methods of encryption?
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73 de w8nsi Jim
ts-480, ft-857, 75m loop. efhw [40-10], 4btv
ft-818nd, mfj efhw [40-10] for portable
registered Winlink and Vara-modem user
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To Dave KO4KHB;
We understand your desire to package an encryption ham radio product with your commercial communication packages to government agencies for a profit.
Ham radio by its nature is not secure.
You can list URLs to download security software with your products or even burn a cd/dvd with them to include when you make a sale.
Or you can contact the authors direct for a commercial encryption capable version.
Or sell them a dragon P4 pactor modem!
--
73 de w8nsi Jim
Yes, I am a VET too. Vietnam '68-'72
ts-480, ft-857, 75m loop. efhw [40-10], 4btv
ft-818nd, mfj efhw [40-10] for portable
registered Winlink and Vara-modem user
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Bundling a product that provides direct support for ham radio use with other components that are illegal to use in the US is a direct invitation for legal action against distributors by the FCC.? An example is what happened to US distributors of Baofeng/Anytone/etc products that could do both ham (ARS) radio and business (LMR) use.? After fines resulting from FCC legal action they were successful in getting the product OEMs to change the products they were selling to comply with federal law.? Individual holders of FCC issued ARS (ham) licenses practicing that also risk loss of their licenses.
A modified VarAC product that eliminates ham band support may be okay to bundle with encryption for LMR or marine band use, but would also require compliance with other FCC regs for LMR which includes inability for the end user to change configuration or use frequency channels that are not assigned to the user org for their unique license by the FCC.
Something to keep in mind for USA.?
Stephen W9SK
On June 10, 2023 10:57:42 AM "W8NSI James" <w8nsi@...> wrote:
To Dave KO4KHB;
We understand your desire to package an encryption ham radio product with your commercial communication packages to government agencies for a profit.
Ham radio by its nature is not secure.
You can list URLs to download security software with your products or even burn a cd/dvd with them to include when you make a sale.
Or you can contact the authors direct for a commercial encryption capable version.
Or sell them a dragon P4 pactor modem!
--
73 de w8nsi Jim
Yes, I am a VET too. Vietnam '68-'72
ts-480, ft-857, 75m loop. efhw [40-10], 4btv
ft-818nd, mfj efhw [40-10] for portable
registered Winlink and Vara-modem user
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Thanks everyone for your input into this topic. I will be attending an Ecomm meeting tomorrow with NZ Police so have solutions for this issue when asked.
Best wishes and thanks from NZ 73 Nigel ZL2SEA
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Two versions: 1. Amateur Radio version?
2. VarAC for government or Commerical use? David E. Theriault President 4K Solutions, LLC (706) 593-9070 KO4KHB
SDVOSB (CvE)
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Show quoted text
On Jun 10, 2023, at 12:29 PM, Stephen W9SK <stephen@...> wrote:
?
Bundling a product that provides direct support for ham radio use with other components that are illegal to use in the US is a direct invitation for legal action against distributors by the FCC.? An example is what happened to US distributors of Baofeng/Anytone/etc products that could do both ham (ARS) radio and business (LMR) use.? After fines resulting from FCC legal action they were successful in getting the product OEMs to change the products they were selling to comply with federal law.? Individual holders of FCC issued ARS (ham) licenses practicing that also risk loss of their licenses.
A modified VarAC product that eliminates ham band support may be okay to bundle with encryption for LMR or marine band use, but would also require compliance with other FCC regs for LMR which includes inability for the end user to change configuration or use frequency channels that are not assigned to the user org for their unique license by the FCC.
Something to keep in mind for USA.?
Stephen W9SK
On June 10, 2023 10:57:42 AM "W8NSI James" <w8nsi@...> wrote:
To Dave KO4KHB;
We understand your desire to package an encryption ham radio product with your commercial communication packages to government agencies for a profit.
Ham radio by its nature is not secure.
You can list URLs to download security software with your products or even burn a cd/dvd with them to include when you make a sale.
Or you can contact the authors direct for a commercial encryption capable version.
Or sell them a dragon P4 pactor modem!
--
73 de w8nsi Jim
Yes, I am a VET too. Vietnam '68-'72
ts-480, ft-857, 75m loop. efhw [40-10], 4btv
ft-818nd, mfj efhw [40-10] for portable
registered Winlink and Vara-modem user
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Its more usual for? secure circuits to deploy? encryption? in the? traffic supplied to? the? modem and recovery taking place before the? display equipment , the? level of complexity is the? users? choice , the key could be a? few digits or a floppy disk full?
The modem itself remains unaffected , the association comments are not relevant?
Take ww2 enigma?
Massage > coding > 5 fig groups > CW Key+Operator = over air?
over air > Rx+ CW reading operator > 5 fig groups > decrypt > message?
This appears to be a? working enigma machine? emulation , alphabet only, appears not to accept numbers?
73-Graham
g0nbd
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If you intend to send encrypted messages to DoD or Govt entities they all use offline encryption and if you are one of those authorized to communicate with those entities you would also have access to their offline encryption sources.
Just my 2 cents.?
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Hi,
This is not the case
We are just planning options for supply ecomm with council and police and in planning stage. This is not for any profit and will be done as a under existing AREC group. This is not supplying police or anybody for commercial infrastructure. It¡¯s to provide coms in an emergency when everything else fails only
Still in planning stages currently
Thanks regards Nigel ZL2SEA
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Hi Nigel,
The comm. units for govt. have access to a variety of secure comm applications...text, files etc. usually- supplied by the vendor.? Our micom's had built in encryption for text and email for example, and our CAD covers everything on our vhf/uhf systems.? ?Ham apps are not designed to be secure...and can't be (in the U.S.). -
There are obviously different levels of security necessary depending on scenarios.? You can minimize exposure by keeping comms at minimum power, point to point directional antennas, and brief.? A state sponsored adversary will go to greater lengths to identify info.? Media and most criminal enterprises won't have the capability to snoop winlink comms...especially if they're point to point.
We've sent files on request that were internally password protected (MS Word /Excel).? Not strictly legal over ham frequencies in U.S., but ok on LMR frequencies.
Good luck.? I'm sure you'll find appropriate solutons.
73?
Roy Dugger, KD6R
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Hi Roy,
Thanks for info,
Looks like this topic got a bit of interest and we now have encryption option in VARA which is great.
All the best from NZ
73 Nigel ZL2SEA
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I am interested in EMCOMM support for both private and public entities. However, I am puzzled by how to use Vara HF for the services using Private Land Mobile here in the US. That service is regulated by the FCC Part 90 regulations, and my reading of that section seems to indicate it allows SSB operation below 25 MHz for only voice, (J3E) not any data modes (J3D). Also, since the Vara package now capable of encryption is Vara HF, what equipment would one use for operation on PLM frequencies? It would need to be certified to Part 90 standards, I believe. Also, it seems the operation of a base station would require careful coordination with controlling agencies, as frequency assignments are based on limiting coverage to a limited geographical area so as to not create interference with other licensees using the same frequency in other areas. How would one go about getting all these conditions satisfied?
--
VY 73,
Wes WB7BR
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Hi Wes,
That all is controlled by the licensed entity and their license.? You would not have equipment that could operate on their licensed frequencies without their permission.? The license specifies modes, frequencies, areas of coverage, locations and number of authorized devices.
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Roy Dugger, KD6R
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Thanks Roy. That fits what my years of working as a tech in the PLMR field suggested. My work was limited to VHF/UHF installations, but the regs where pretty tight. I suspect the reality is that those discussing this topic here are actually providing technical support to the agency at agency installed stations. Not trying to get their own station set up to participate.
--
VY 73,
Wes WB7BR
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G4AON
Eric KE8GRY
W8NSI James
Stephen W9SK
Wes WB7BR