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Major Updates Changing Sound Device Sort Order

 

For us Windows users, I discovered that one software developer seems to have figured a way to minimize the issue of major Window Updates reordering the OS's internal list of sound devices.
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I was building a laptop to work with VARA FM and Packet to act as a temporary Winlink Digipeater for a local exercise.? ?I experiment a lot with this laptop and don't always rename my sound devices from the default on this machine or label what cables have been plugged into which port or regularly uninstall unused assigned devices.? Unlike which I do with my Day to Day digital mode computer that has all the cables labeled and USB port label to match the cable.? As well as remove no longer used Serial Ports and keep the port numbers contiguous as I install new serial port devices.
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Anyway, after several false starts a few quick changes I got it working working with VARA FM and using DireWolf for Packet.? Seeing their was a Windows update that had been downloaded I renamed the sound devices to unique names so I could know which where the Digirig Lites device versus the Signalink and DRA devices I regularly have attached to that machine.? Then it let do the update knowing I had time to fix things the next day which I had scheduled with others to do some testing.
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Not to my surprise when I started up VARA FM, I saw it had the wrong sound devices and since I had renamed them, it was easily to apply the changes to VARA FM.? Later on that day I took the system out to my shop test it as a digipeater.? All worked fine, but then I realized even though I had not adjusted DireWolf, it worked fine.? Bringing it back in to my home I saw it was using the correct sound devices.? I was puzzled, but didn't give it much thought until today.??
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I am on the DireWolf groups.io page as well as others.? This morning I read something to from the developer of DireWolf, WB2OSZ, that made me realize why it had no issues with the reorder.? ? Rather than pick from a list to select the sound device, DireWolf request you specify it is position in the list, or provide it by name in the config file.? His recommendation was that users of DireWolf use the full names or the Substring of the name for the audio device configuration parameter (ADEVICE).? So rather than ADEVICE 1,2 if you have renamed them you could use either ADEVICE "Digi UV5R Mic" "Digi UV5R Spkr" ?or if they differ only by "Mic" and "Spkr" you can use ADEVICE "Digi UV5R".? So despite Windows reordering the list when compacting the known devices list for the new release it still will pick the correct device.? ?Not trusting my typing, I had copied and pasted the names from the Sounds Dialog to use in the config file,so: ADEVICE "Digi UV5R Mic" "Digi UV5R Spkr" was used for the config parameter.
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This leads me to believe all the other developers are tracking the order in the list rather than the name we selected from the drop down.? If possible, it would nice to see both VARA FM and VARA as well as other digital software vendors maintain a persistent value between executions of the program of the name selected for the audio devices so if a Windows update reorders the list, it picks it to match the name not the previous execution's position.? If the named device no longer exists, it seems a popup message could alert the user to fixing the issue.??
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Brian - W7OWO
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¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

I have NEVER had Windows bollox up my audio or COM selections, but then I ALWAYS leave my USB cables plugged into the same port, even during updates and reboots.

What I have seen is for instance, WSJT-X, if started up without my USB cable plugged in from my K4D (this only happens when I take the laptop out of the shack to use it for a portable session using my KX2, which uses a Sabrent USB dongle for Audio in/out), that it will default to the laptop mic/spkrs.? Once I plug in the USB cable, then I need to go into the WSJT-X settings and change the audio in/out back to either my Sabrent dongle or the K4D internal audio CODEC, as appropriate.

The reason I don't have to futz with the COM port in WSJT-X, is because I have it set to use Ham Radio Deluxe as the 'radio' interface.? HRD has a nice interface that allows me to choose which radio (K3/K4 or KX2) to use on startup.? Again, as long as I have my cable already plugged in, I NEVER have to 'fix' either my COM or Audio CODEC settings in HRD, EVER.

So, in conclusion, in spite of everybody wailing about how Windows messes up their ports, it simply ain't so.? As long as you ALWAYS plug your USB cables into the same ports (either on the laptop or on an external USB hub and of course, plug the hub into the same port on the laptop), AND always plug the radio and/or radio interface into the laptop or hub BEFORE launching your software, you should NEVER have any issues with Windows updates.

Period, end of discussion.

73,

-- Dave, N8SBE, Hamshack Hotline 550-0971, HamsOverIP 101018, AmateurWire 1348

On 2025-01-23 12:22, Brian - W7OWO wrote:

For us Windows users, I discovered that one software developer seems to have figured a way to minimize the issue of major Window Updates reordering the OS's internal list of sound devices.
?
I was building a laptop to work with VARA FM and Packet to act as a temporary Winlink Digipeater for a local exercise.? ?I experiment a lot with this laptop and don't always rename my sound devices from the default on this machine or label what cables have been plugged into which port or regularly uninstall unused assigned devices.? Unlike which I do with my Day to Day digital mode computer that has all the cables labeled and USB port label to match the cable.? As well as remove no longer used Serial Ports and keep the port numbers contiguous as I install new serial port devices.
?
Anyway, after several false starts a few quick changes I got it working working with VARA FM and using DireWolf for Packet.? Seeing their was a Windows update that had been downloaded I renamed the sound devices to unique names so I could know which where the Digirig Lites device versus the Signalink and DRA devices I regularly have attached to that machine.? Then it let do the update knowing I had time to fix things the next day which I had scheduled with others to do some testing.
?
Not to my surprise when I started up VARA FM, I saw it had the wrong sound devices and since I had renamed them, it was easily to apply the changes to VARA FM.? Later on that day I took the system out to my shop test it as a digipeater.? All worked fine, but then I realized even though I had not adjusted DireWolf, it worked fine.? Bringing it back in to my home I saw it was using the correct sound devices.? I was puzzled, but didn't give it much thought until today.??
?
I am on the DireWolf groups.io page as well as others.? This morning I read something to from the developer of DireWolf, WB2OSZ, that made me realize why it had no issues with the reorder.? ? Rather than pick from a list to select the sound device, DireWolf request you specify it is position in the list, or provide it by name in the config file.? His recommendation was that users of DireWolf use the full names or the Substring of the name for the audio device configuration parameter (ADEVICE).? So rather than ADEVICE 1,2 if you have renamed them you could use either ADEVICE "Digi UV5R Mic" "Digi UV5R Spkr" ?or if they differ only by "Mic" and "Spkr" you can use ADEVICE "Digi UV5R".? So despite Windows reordering the list when compacting the known devices list for the new release it still will pick the correct device.? ?Not trusting my typing, I had copied and pasted the names from the Sounds Dialog to use in the config file,so: ADEVICE "Digi UV5R Mic" "Digi UV5R Spkr" was used for the config parameter.
?
This leads me to believe all the other developers are tracking the order in the list rather than the name we selected from the drop down.? If possible, it would nice to see both VARA FM and VARA as well as other digital software vendors maintain a persistent value between executions of the program of the name selected for the audio devices so if a Windows update reorders the list, it picks it to match the name not the previous execution's position.? If the named device no longer exists, it seems a popup message could alert the user to fixing the issue.??
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Brian - W7OWO
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Well, Dave, then you've never had to deal with laptops in a work environment where Windows and its updates will re-arrange (or remove) USB ports and sound devices. I can tell you from experience that it's frustrating as hell to be at a remote m/w site and cannot figure out why your laptop won't talk to the m/w and you wind up having to troubleshoot the laptop *before* you can troubleshoot the m/w radio - usually at 0200 (you never get a problem during the day). Sometimes a simple reboot would fix it, sometimes not. I've actually had to leave a site, find an office with a company network (because the m/w radio is down; therefore, no network), download correct drivers, and drive back out to the site. So, no, just leaving things plugged into a Windows machine (not always possible because of work laptops) or always using the same port doesn't always work. In my line of work, I learned a long time ago against using absolutes.

I don't generally discuss Windows issues because I only use it when forced to - my job forces me to use Windows. When it's their laptop, they get to do with it what they want.

For VARA, I use it in CrossOver on my Mac.
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Regards,
Joel - W4JBB
 

Hi Brian,
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Not only can the update rearrange audio devices, it can (and will on occasion) lose the individual audio level adjusts assigned per app. It's really frustrating to get all the individual app levels set properly, and then *poof*, they get reset. I took the time to write down the audio level values so I don't need to guess and fuss around with adjusting levels.
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What I think could be happening is the device driver is updated. Once the newer driver is used, the settings get whacked. I had it happen when my Windows 11 machine upgraded to 24H2.
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And you are correct that some apps are better at finding the audio device after these events happens. Just beware that other values may need to be checked. I have all the system sounds muted, and the audio out from the browser muted. No reason for that stuff to go over the air. I had to mute those things again. So that is something else to keep in mind.
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And for people that keep saying this just doesn't happen, or it isn't possible, they are flat out wrong. I've read it from enough people and thought the same thing. I didn't unplug any cables, or rearrange any connections. One update and I ended spending some effort to get things back to operational norm. It does indeed happen. Fortunately it was only a major update that triggered the event for me. Keep notes on your volume settings and what things are muted. Once you have that, putting things in order goes quick.
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73
Doug / N3JXB
 

I was just trying to point out that Windows Developers can enumerate through the audio devices and select the device by name rather than position.? The DireWolf developer has provided that as a feature when declaring the input and output devices for the application to use.? ?Considering the number of issues I see on the various Groups.io groups to which I subscribe, where this scenario is a problem. ?And was hoping other digital mode developers would take notice and follow.? I wrote this in the VARA Group knowing it is for Windows Only and hopefully not stir up the Linux vs Windows discussions.? I've been using MS Windows since Window 1.1 swapping 5 1/2 inch floppies between the A & B drive on my 256 K memory 8088 IBM PC and the mouse was connected via a serial port and no hard drive.? It is what I know, and I find I can make it work even when there are stumbling blocks in my way.? Knowledge of it gave me a good career.
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As I understand it, a major version update is nearly the same a reloading the OS, it is just Microsoft has gone done a lot of work to try to make your computer has the configuration it had before.? The active devices are still there, due to the house cleaning the upgrade performed it is in a different location.? Unfortunately it appears many application tracked the device by position rather than by name.? Sure they are showing the names, but I would hazard to guess that in their enumeration of the devices to get the list, they bypass any activities.??
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I like to call this situation:? "They are try to do something for you, but due to happenstance, in actuality they are doing something to you."
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As a retired developer, I know it is hard to know all the issues that can crop up, and what the impacts development decisions have on the working domain of the application.? ?What many a user call a bug is in actuality an omission in the specifications the developer was working with.? Jose has done a great job making and supporting the VARA products.
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Brian - W7OWO
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

There are many other things that can monkey with your audio settings, besides a Windows update.? Just blaming Windows update for all their woes is what gets my goat.

For instance, I've discovered that when using Jitsi conferencing, it monkeys with my mic audio level settings, such that after the meeting is over, I have to remember to go back into Zoom and set my mic gain back to where it was before Jitsi hijacked it.? And no, Jitsi has no controls to set the mic gain manually from with the program.? It just decides on its own to lower my mic gain.

There are literally dozens (hundreds?) of interactions between apps, drivers, and even web-based stuff that can mess with your PC settings, so again, the only thing I'm tired of hearing is folks jumping to the conclusion that it was a Windows update that blew their settings, without spending any time investigating what REALLY happened.

73,

-- Dave, N8SBE, Hamshack Hotline 550-0971, HamsOverIP 101018, AmateurWire 1348

On 2025-01-24 07:46, Joel Black - W4JBB via groups.io wrote:

Well, Dave, then you've never had to deal with laptops in a work environment where Windows and its updates will re-arrange (or remove) USB ports and sound devices. I can tell you from experience that it's frustrating as hell to be at a remote m/w site and cannot figure out why your laptop won't talk to the m/w and you wind up having to troubleshoot the laptop *before* you can troubleshoot the m/w radio - usually at 0200 (you never get a problem during the day). Sometimes a simple reboot would fix it, sometimes not. I've actually had to leave a site, find an office with a company network (because the m/w radio is down; therefore, no network), download correct drivers, and drive back out to the site. So, no, just leaving things plugged into a Windows machine (not always possible because of work laptops) or always using the same port doesn't always work. In my line of work, I learned a long time ago against using absolutes.

I don't generally discuss Windows issues because I only use it when forced to - my job forces me to use Windows. When it's their laptop, they get to do with it what they want.

For VARA, I use it in CrossOver on my Mac.
?
Regards,
Joel - W4JBB
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