On Tue, Jul 4, 2023 at 10:08 AM, WA8LMF wrote (in response to k3eui Barry):

k3eui Barry said:
I have a modified SignaLink with a small toggle switch on the chassis that allows me to select EITHER pin 4 or 5 for RX audio.
So on the fly, I can switch between pin 4 direct or pin 5 (de-emphasized and filtered RX audio).

?

This is EXACTLY what I do with all my home-brew interfaces.? Here are a couple...

Barry, Stephen, all;

The original poster is using his DigiRig with a dual-band VHF / UHF FM transceiver. As pointed out by other posters on this topic, if you can achieve reliable connections with VARA FM WIDE, with the VHF / UHF FM radio and interface device both configured for 9600bps data, there’s no need to switch the radio and interface to the 1200bps configuration for either VARA FM NARROW or 1200bps packet operation.

This is not to say that being able to conveniently switch the interface device between 1200bps and 9600bps is not worthwhile, particularly when working with an “all band” (HF / 6M / 2M / 70cm) radio. It just isn’t necessary when working exclusively with a dual-band (or single-band) VHF / UHF FM transceiver.

Mark - AD7EF

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If I might add a few comments to this post.
It does beg for a better understanding from a rookie question.

What do you need to connect the sound card and the radio?
TX wire
PTT wire
GND
RX wire but the radios often have TWO separate pins for receive audio: 1200 baud and 9600 baud.
Squelch option (that’s pin 6 on the MINI DIN) - I don’t use this one.

The first amateur radio non-voice "data" mode (other than CW and RTTY) was AX.25 packet radio. It originated in the late 1970s/early 1980s. This was decades before personal computers with sound cards became ubiquitous, especially in ham shacks, Data? send/receive was done from a Teletype machine or "dumb terminal" connected to a radio via a hardware device known as a TNC ("terminal node controller").
??? The TNC was basically an advanced modem designed for two-way radios. It was loosely based on the Bell 202-standard? 1200-baud landline modem, and often used the same then-current modem chip as the land-line counterpart.? TAPR (the Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Assn) developed a standard reference design known as the "TNC-2" that was based on a Z-80 8-bit CPU and originally 128K of RAM in the early 1980s. Thousands of TNC2 clones and variants were made by at least half a dozen companies including PacCom, Heathkit, AEA, MFJ and others in the 1980s and 90s.?

The land-line version of a '202 modem could send and receive at the same time. The radio version had to deal with the fact that normal two-way radio is one-way-at-a-time. Part of the added complexity of the TNC was circuitry that could monitor the radio receiver's hardware squelch line. This prevented the TNC from transmitting while someone else was using the radio channel. This is the? origin of the "squelch/COR ("carrier-operated-relay)" on the DIN port.??

In the beginning, packet TNCs were connected to the radio's mic and speaker jacks since the 1200 baud Bell 202 standard had been designed to work over voice-grade phone lines (300-3000 Hz response) using Audio Frequency Shift Keying between 1200 and 2200 Hz tones.?

In the push for higher data rates, the 9600-baud G3RUH modem introduced direct FSK of the radio's carrier (rather than audio tones). It requires direct DC connection to the radio's FM discriminator on receive and direct DC connection to the radio's modulator.on transmit.?
??? While it was successful with technically-knowledgeable packet network builders, it never gained wide acceptance with casual appliance-operating end-users because it required (horrors!) cutting into the radio's interior to connect.?? Further, "9600" is much more intolerant of incorrectly-set modulation levels,? noise, weak signals, multi-path propagation, etc.?? Today, it is used mainly for "trunk" links between major digipeater sites, BBS systems, etc, while end-users continue (4 decades later!) to use the much-more hassle-free 1200 baud AFSK mode. ?

When the miniDIN-6 "data" port started appearing on radios in the early 1990s, it was a way to make connecting to the RX discriminator and TX modulator easier , eliminating the need to hack the radio for 9600 mode.? You could now plug a TNC in G3RUH 9600 baud mode directly into the rear panel of the radio.
??? These days, with the hardware TNC function long since replaced by "smoke, mirrors and software" inside the PC using a soundcard, the same DIN port now serves as the connection point for "sound card interfaces.

?

so the sound card ought to have at least FIVE wires to connect to the radio . Right?

Not really...?? Until VARA burst upon the amateur radio scene a couple of years ago and started pushing the limits of data transmission over FM radio, there was virtually no call for the wide-band direct-discriminator "9600" connection by end users .? All the other digi modes that have proliferated over the last 30 years or so (SSTV, PSK31, JT-65, FT-8, MFSK, MT-2000, Olivia, Contestia, etc work just fine through the "1200 baud" speaker-like connection.?

Especially on HF, where all data modes are used on some variant of SSB. (The discriminator "9600" connection is uniquely an FM thing. It doesn't exist on AM / SSB / CW modes of a receiver.)

The SignaLink has the RJ45 (8 pins) socket to a radio. Lots of options, and lots of S-Link to radio cables to choose from.
No problem hooking up a SignaLink to all six wires of a MINI DIN port.
The DRA with the 6 pin MINI DIN socket has all six wires - direct to the radio’s 6 pin MINI DIN.
The DRA -SR RJ45 has the same radio connector as the SignaLink - no problem.
Other DRA sound cards have a switch or jumper to select EITHER 1200 or 9600 baud for RECEIVE audio.


Here is the issue - the DigiRig has a FOUR-pin plug/socket (TRRS) to connect the sound card to the radios with 6 pin MINI DIN.
But we know we want FIVE wires for the option of TWO receive paths, 1 transmit path, 1 PTT and a ground.

1)? There is no such thing as a 3.5mm 5-contact "TRRRS" connector. The designer would be forced to use a larger connector, such as a mini-DIN or round 8-pin MIC-type jack.

2)? Again, until VARA burst upon the world, there was really no call for the discriminator connection by end-users.?

?

It would have been possible to design the DigiRig to also have some kind of jumper or switch to select the RX audio but alas, it’s input from the RADIO is a simple FOUR pin TRRS socket and plug.
So the DigiRig can only have FOUR wires, not FIVE, due to the limitations of a TRRS socket.
Thus, the RECEIVE audio path is now determined by the physical wiring of the CABLE itself.

It’s annoying if you want to change back/forth from 1200 to 9600 but that’s life with only four wires.

So which would you prefer, especially in the field??? Swap an external cable or have to open up the box and shift (or solder) nasty little jumpers?

On FM rigs that I’ve used (Icom 2720, 2820, 746Pro) that have that 6 pin MINI DIN port I am fairly sure that the RECEIVE audio is always available on both pin 4 (9600 baud) and on pin 5 (1200 baud) without any MENU item to select.
The same is true on a Knwd D700 and Knwd V71A - all use the same 6 pin MINI DIN port.
It is the TRANSMIT audio that comes into the radio from the sound card on pin 1 that gets routed inside the radio for a 1200 baud path (pre-enhanced, filtered) or via a 9600 baud path (more direct to modulator).

On virtually all FM radios, the RX discriminator output (a.k.a. "9600 baud") is always live regardless of any menu selections.? On multi-mode radios, again, it will only function in FM-based modes; no signal will be present here? on AM-CW-SSB modes.

Normally, it's only the function of the single radio? INPUT pin (TX) that gets shifted by menus.

I have a modified SignaLink with a small toggle switch on the chassis that allows me to select EITHER pin 4 or 5 for RX audio.
So on the fly, I can switch between pin 4 direct or pin 5 (de-emphasized and filtered RX audio).

This is EXACTLY what I do with all my home-brew interfaces.? Here are a couple:
:

The small one is intended to be Velcroed to the back of an iPad mini. The 4-conductor TRRS plug goes directly into the combined headphone-mic-headset jack of the iPad.? Both interfaces have 6-pin mini-DIN jacks - you use a standard min-DIN6-to-miniDIN-6 cable to connect to the radio.

These interfaces are completely self-powered by the tones generated by the sound card app on transmit. No serial port, no USB, no batteries and no 12 VDC power required!? Just record and play audio connections to/from the computer, phone or tablet.

I did this only for testing purposes - looking at audio coming from a FM analog repeater, when used for VARA FM.

I bought a couple of “break-out” terminals that I intend to connect to my DigiRig Mobile V1.9 and Mini DIN 6 port; thus, I can change from RX on pin 4 to pin 5 without changing the actual cable.

I have made up a?? miniDIN-6 male? - to - miniDIN-6 female cable about a foot long with a? "goiter" in the middle with a SPDT mini toggle switch for this purpose.? To route either RX audio or discriminator audio from the radio to the interface.

I have also "de-filed" a Yaesu SCU-17 interface by drilling a hole in it, and placing a mini toggle switch on it's right side for the same reason.?

Most of us would have likely prefereed to have the Digirig device itself with more INTERNAL options, like pin select, or more importantly a RX pot and a TX pot to adjust levels with a knob. That would have increased the size and the cost of the Digirig.

Does that help explain why some DigiRig owners are struggling to get the proper cable?
One cable (four pins) can NOT do both 1200 and 9600 baud.

Again,? until VARA hit the world,? there was really no reason to? use anything but the "1200 baud" RX audio for everything. (Unless you were doing 9600 baud AX.25 packet.)

?

---

Stephen H. Smith??? wa8lmf (at) aol.com
Skype:??????? WA8LMF
EchoLink:? Node #? 14400? [Think bottom of the 2-meter band]
Home Page:?????????

-- APRS over FLdigi Modes? --
??

60-Meter APRS!?? HF NVIS APRS Igate Now Operating
??

Flying Digipeater!
??

11 Copies of UIview in Action on One Computer! ?
Live Off-The-Air APRS Activity Maps
??

If I might add a few comments to this post.
It does beg for a better understanding from a rookie question.

What do you need to connect the sound card and the radio?
TX wire
PTT wire
GND
RX wire but the radios often have TWO separate pins for receive audio: 1200 baud and 9600 baud.
Squelch option (that’s pin 6 on the MINI DIN) - I don’t use this one.

so the sound card ought to have at least FIVE wires to connect to the radio . Right?

The SignaLink has the RJ45 (8 pins) socket to a radio. Lots of options, and lots of S-Link to radio cables to choose from.
No problem hooking up a SignaLink to all six wires of a MINI DIN port.
The DRA with the 6 pin MINI DIN socket has all six wires - direct to the radio’s 6 pin MINI DIN.
The DRA -SR RJ45 has the same radio connector as the SignaLink - no problem.
Other DRA sound cards have a switch or jumper to select EITHER 1200 or 9600 baud for RECEIVE audio.


Here is the issue - the DigiRig has a FOUR-pin plug/socket (TRRS) to connect the sound card to the radios with 6 pin MINI DIN.
But we know we want FIVE wires for the option of TWO receive paths, 1 transmit path, 1 PTT and a ground.

So the Digirig CABLE does the selection of the RECEIVE audio path:
? ?One cable connects to ?Pin 4 if you want to operate 9600 baud
? ?A different cable connects to Pin 5 if you want to operate 1200 baud.

Bummer.

On a SignaLink, since it can have as many as 8 wires (RJ45 socket) the way you decide to operate 1200 baud or 9600 baud is by a jumper block inside the S-Link. You can use one of their jumpers or wire the block with solid wires.
The Signalink only has one MIC and one SPRK port (and is MONO, left channel only).




It would have been possible to design the DigiRig to also have some kind of jumper or switch to select the RX audio but alas, it’s input from the RADIO is a simple FOUR pin TRRS socket and plug.
So the DigiRig can only have FOUR wires, not FIVE, due to the limitations of a TRRS socket.
Thus, the RECEIVE audio path is now determined by the physical wiring of the CABLE itself.

It’s annoying if you want to change back/forth from 1200 to 9600 but that’s life with only four wires.

On FM rigs that I’ve used (Icom 2720, 2820, 746Pro) that have that 6 pin MINI DIN port I am fairly sure that the RECEIVE audio is always available on both pin 4 (9600 baud) and on pin 5 (1200 baud) without any MENU item to select.
The same is true on a Knwd D700 and Knwd V71A - all use the same 6 pin MINI DIN port.
It is the TRANSMIT audio that comes into the radio from the sound card on pin 1 that gets routed inside the radio for a 1200 baud path (pre-enhanced, filtered) or via a 9600 baud path (more direct to modulator).

I have a modified SignaLink with a small toggle switch on the chassis that allows me to select EITHER pin 4 or 5 for RX audio.
So on the fly, I can switch between pin 4 direct or pin 5 (de-emphasized and filtered RX audio).
I did this only for testing purposes - looking at audio coming from a FM analog repeater, when used for VARA FM.

I bought a couple of “break-out” terminals that I intend to connect to my DigiRig Mobile V1.9 and Mini DIN 6 port; thus, I can change from RX on pin 4 to pin 5 without changing the actual cable.

Most of us would have likely prefereed to have the Digirig device itself with more INTERNAL options, like pin select, or more importantly a RX pot and a TX pot to adjust levels with a knob. That would have increased the size and the cost of the Digirig.

Does that help explain why some DigiRig owners are struggling to get the proper cable?
One cable (four pins) can NOT do both 1200 and 9600 baud.



de k3eui barry

Hi Everyone,

I ordered a new cable. It may take a few days to get it, but it's on the way. Thanks so much. There are a lot of answers to tinker with; which I plan on doing.

Brian;

I went back and reviewed your original posts on this topic. In your first post, you said:?When I am using the1200 baud rate system, I only need 3 db., and I will get an "Approved" notice...

In your second post you said: ...?this is the cable I am using.

Are you switching audio cables when you change the radio from the 9600bps data mode setting to the 1200bps data mode setting?

Generally, you will not be able to use the 9600bps audio cable when the radio is set for 1200 bps date mode operation, and you will not be able to use the 1200bps audio cable when the radio is set for 9600 bps date mode operation.

I recommend this debugging process...?
- with the radio set for 9600 bps data mode (menu 26 [PKT.SPD] set to '9600bps') and while using the 9600bps audio cable
1. Check your receive level, using the VARA FM "VU" meter. While monitoring noise, the needle should be somewhere beteeen 12:00 and 1:00. if the needle is in the red, or pegged to the right, lower the "Recording" level for the DigiRig RX channel in the Windows 'Sound' Control Panel. In the 9600 bps configuration, opening or closing the radio squelch will not affect the position of the VARA FM VU meter... However, if you're using the 1200bps audio cable, closing the radio squelch will cause the VU meter to drop to zero.

2. Check your transmit level. If you have a separate VHF/UHF radio, or a hand-held, listen to the selected frequency while running a ping or auto-tune. The transmit level is controlled with the "Playback" level for the DigiRig TX channel in the Windows 'Sound' Control Panel. Be aware that many FM radios "squelch" the TX audio if the transmit level is set too high.

Please let us know how these tests turn out.

Mark - AD7EF

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OK. I think many people have made a lot of of effort to help answer my questions. I have ordered a new cable. Thank you all for your thorough answers.

On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 08:30 PM, KZ7Q Brian Johanson wrote:

Would you know if the DigiRig Mobile is configured for 9600 baud?...

Brian;

There isn't any internal setting for 1200bps vs. 9600bps operation in the DigiRig Mobile. Whether the DigiRig Mobile can be used for 1200bps operation or 9600bps operation is determined by whether you use a 1200bps mini-DIN-6 cable or a 9600bps mini-DIN-6 cable to interface the DigiRig Mini to the mini-DIN-6 "DATA" port on the radio.

The 1200bps mini-DIN-6 cable is shipped with either the TM71KIT1200 (Kenwood TM-V71A cords for Digirig Mobile) cable-set or the FT8XXMOBILE (Yaesu FT-8xx cords for Digirig Mobile) cable-set, that is typically ordered with the DigiRig Mobile.

The DigiRig 9600bps mini-DIN-6 cable (SKU: 9600BMOBILE) can be ordered here:?.

The cable selection determines whether the receive audio fed to the DigiRig Mobile audio input is de-emphasis filtered, 3KHz bandwidth, "voice audio" from the radio's mini-DIN-6 "RX 1200" pin, or unfiltered 6KHZ bandwidth audio (direct from the receiver discriminator circuit) from the radio's mini-DIN-6 "RX 9600" pin.

On most VHF/UHF radios that have a mini-DIN-6 "DATA" connector, the "RX 9600" signal is only present when the radio is set to the "9600bps data" configuration.?

Mark - AD7EF

Hi Oliver,

Would you know if the DigiRig Mobile is configured for 9600 baud? I can't find that information.

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On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 05:53 PM, Kevin Custer wrote:

Every major amateur radio manufacturer follows the pinout of the inventor.

Except when they don't... here's the "DATA" port diagram in the Yaesu FT-817 Operating Manual:


I thought that would be a good example, because the signals were clearly positioned on the ["solder end" of the male plug / panel view of the female jack]. Then I noticed that the pin numbers in the chart are different than the "standard".

Mark - AD7EF

On 7/2/2023 4:10 PM, WA8LMF via groups.io wrote:

There IS NO standard for the pin NUMBERING.

That's absurd.

The Mini-DIN-6 / PS/2 connector absolutely has a standard as defined by its inventor - IBM in 1987.? The connector was patented and the pin numbers are referenced in the patent.

The "Personal System 2" connector pinout is exactly as Mark posted of the ICOM accessory port image.? Every major amateur radio manufacturer follows the pinout of the inventor.

Here are three references:

Some connectors are numbered clockwise, some clockwise and I have seen a few that zig-zagged side-to-side.

Then they don't follow the industry standard - or that of the inventor / patent.

Kevin W3KKC

Stephen;

Thank you for your clarification. The mini-DIN-6 document on your website does avoid ambiguity, by omitting pin numbers, and expressly stating whether the signal arrangement is viewed on the "Soldering end" of a male plug or on the "Soldering end" of a female panel jack.

I inadvertently deleted my post with the ICOM diagram (while trying to edit it). The following information should replace that post.

It was presumptuous of me to refer to the pin-numbering on the ICOM diagram as "standard". While there are many exceptions, it's certainly "common practice" among manufacturers of popular VHF/UHF transceivers to number the pins on the mini-DIN-6 'data' connector in the same order as shown in the diagram from the ICOM IC-7100 service manual.

A good example is this diagram from the ICOM IC-7100 user guide, which makes it clear that the mini-DIN-6 numbering is viewed from the rear panel of the radio


The same pin-numbering scheme is common to many other Yaesu, Kenwood and Icom VHF/UHF radios, as well as a multitude of Chinese imports. It's useful to know that the the "rear panel" view of the female panel jack is identical to the "Soldering end" view of the male plug.?

Mark - AD7EF

Hi Mark,

Thank you so much! I think we are getting somewhere on this, and I will try that.

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I just realized that the?DigiRig diagrams show the wires going to the correct positions on the back of the mini-DIN-6 male plug, but their pin-numbering is wonky... it ?differs from the standard followed by other manufacturers

?

Here’s the standard mini-DIN-6 pin numbering, as shown in the Icom IC-7100 service manual:

? ? ? ? ??

?

This is the industry-standard pin-out for the "data port".? There IS NO standard for the pin NUMBERING.? Some connectors are numbered clockwise, some clockwise and I have seen a few that zig-zagged side-to-side. ? Not to mention the ambiguity of whether you are looking at the socket side of the connector or the soldering terminals,? and whether you are looking at the male plug or female jack end of the connector pair. ?

The drawing above is incorrect in another way.? The six contacts are in a uniform circle - not spaced into two sets of three. ?

---

A PDF document on my website has the complete details on this connector, including the views from the soldering end of both the male plug and female socket.

>?

---

Stephen H. Smith??? wa8lmf (at) aol.com
Skype:??????? WA8LMF
EchoLink:? Node #? 14400? [Think bottom of the 2-meter band]
Home Page:?????????

-- APRS over FLdigi Modes? --
??

60-Meter APRS!?? HF NVIS APRS Igate Now Operating
??

Flying Digipeater!
??

11 Copies of UIview in Action on One Computer! ?
Live Off-The-Air APRS Activity Maps
??

On Sat, Jul 1, 2023 at 05:47 PM, KZ7Q Brian Johanson wrote:

I don't think mine has that pin on the bottom that is isolated from the other ones.

Brian;

I believe you're referring to the locating 'rib', on the inside of the shell of the mini-DIN-6 plug. That rib ensures that the plug is rotated properly in the socket, before you can push the plug all the way in.

Mark - AD7EF

On Sat, Jul 1, 2023 at 05:47 PM, KZ7Q Brian Johanson wrote:

My cable looks very similar, but I will try that. I don't think mine has that pin on the bottom that is isolated from the other ones.

Brian;

The DigiRig 1200bps radio interface cable you're using now is wired like so:



Note that the 'RIG_AFOUT' wire ('T' on the TRRS plug) is connected to pin 6 (DATA_OUT_1200) of the mini-DIN-6 plug.

Here is the wiring diagram for the DigiRig 9600bps cable:


On this cable, the 'RIG_AFOUT' wire is connected to pin 3 (DATA_OUT_9600) of the mini-DIN-6 plug.

Except for this one wiring change, the cables are electrically identical, and they should physically look the same.

When you have your FT-7900R configured for 1200bps data, the received audio is output on pin 6 of the radio's mini-DIN-6 'data' connector. This is normal FM radio (de-emphasis filtered) 3KHz bandwidth receive audio, as delivered to the radio speaker.

When you configure the FT-7900R for 9600bps data, unfiltered 6KHz bandwidth receive audio, direct from the radio's discriminator, is output on pin 3 of the mini-DIN-6 'data' connector, and receive audio on pin 6 is disabled.?

This is common behavior on VHF/UHF transceivers that have a mini-DIN-6 'data' connector.

Mark - AD7EF

Hi Mark,

Thank you very much for your comment. My cable looks very similar, but I will try that. I don't think mine has that pin on the bottom that is isolated from the other ones.

Brian;

Please note that "installing" the VARA license key only unlocks the the highest throughput levels for either the "Narrow" or "Wide" modes of operation, and turns off the upgrade "Nag" message when you open the software... After installing the license key there isn't any other software you need to install, or other changes you need to make on the computer.

Installing the license is simply a matter of typing the 16-character "Registration Key" into the corresponding field on the VARA FM "Settings - > VARA Setup..." screen:

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?


Since you're currently able to send and receive VARA FM Winlink emails with your FT-7900R?configured for "1200bps data", you have the DigiRig Mobile device connected to the radio through a cable that is wired exclusively for 1200bps operation.

With this "1200bps data" setup, over an optimal signal path, you could see licensed VARA FM NARROW throughput approaching 11kbps when transferring emails that are 50kBytes or larger in size. Without the license installed, best-case VARA FM NARROW?throughput under the same conditions can approach 6kbps.

For comparison, note that real-world 1200bps packet throughput, under optimum conditions, is on the order of 300bps.

To use your FT-7900R in the "9600 data" configuration, you need a different DigiRig radio-interface cable.. it's listed here:?.

With the properly configured "9600bps data" setup, You'll have access to VARA FM WIDE throughput. Under optimum signal-path conditions, it is possible to see licensed 'WIDE' mode VARA FM throughput approaching 22kbps for large email transfers.

Mark - AD7EF

Hi Oliver,

Thanks so much for your knowledge and support. Do you need to adjust the bandwidth on your radio to 5.8 KHz. when using Winlink on 9600 baud? Everything else looks like what I am doing. I do have the license key, I just haven't figured out how to use it.