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Re: What on earth are these?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Hi Peter,?

They are dapping punches used in jewellery making?

Andy?





-------- Original message --------
From: Peter Brooks <peter@...>
Date: 19/09/2023 18:01 (GMT+00:00)
Subject: [Unimat] What on earth are these?

Looks like they could be for beating metal to a dome shape¡­ but I have no idea. They were pictured with a lathe so probably metal-working related.
Re: Tips on machining pulley grooves

 

Yes, the 3 has round grooves, the DB / SL / SL1000 V-grooves.

On Monday, September 18, 2023 at 02:24:42 PM EDT, Peter Brooks <peter@...> wrote:


Whaaaat? (throws hands into air, runs to check¡­)

Phew, my U3 definitely has round section pulleys.
Re: Tips on machining pulley grooves

 

when i needed pulley grooves on the motor i now use on my unimat 3 it was a simple as firing up the motor and attacking the gear on the end of the shaft with a round file until it was deep enough for the? belt.


------ Original Message ------
From "Tool247" <Sjkochan@...>
Date 20/09/2023 13:13:40
Subject Re: [Unimat] Tips on machining pulley grooves

You could try something completely different.? I actually did this myself on my old south bend lathe.
You could mount a router or dremel type tool and put a ball type cutter in it and plunge while rotating the head stock slowly or by hand.
Then you can sharpen a form cutter razor sharp and do your final .005 or .010".

You can probably do 0.010 - 0.020 depth of cuts on solid stock or plunge with a cutoff tool then mill with the router then finish with the form tool.

I created an 8" dia aluminum drum approx 12 inches long with a 0.25" pitch cable groove by engaging the threading (a bit jury rigged) on that lathe.
My U3 I am sure I could employ similar methods for straight grooves.

On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 4:12?PM Peter Brooks <peter@...> wrote:

As part of my 24v re-motoring exercise I¡¯m making new pulleys from aluminium. I¡¯m not finding it easy to machine the groove for the belt and would appreciate any tips (apart from ¡®buy them online¡¯ and ¡®do it on a bigger lathe¡¯ - I just have the U3).

I use ¡®O¡¯ rings for belts, they have a 5mm cross-section diameter. The finished inner diameter at the bottom of the groove will be 38mm. The pulley body is 9mm thick to allow for the flange portions either side of the groove.

For a cutter I first tried a 6mm drill bit cut off at 45 degrees and then milled clean. Blimey a drill bit is hard to saw with a hacksaw. Two blades later¡­ the endmill had no problem however.? The finished ¡®cutter¡¯ didn¡¯t cut very well though.

Next I ground a cutter (my first!) from a 6mm blank. Semi-circular, with a 6 degree angle, and some top relief (as recommended for aluminium I believe). This was moderately successful but it is doing more of a scrape than a cut. It is literally ¡®stop start¡¯. It did however produce some beautiful swarf, almost like snowflakes, or frost.




It is making pulleys - but painfully slowly. I have more material to remove and it is not working well at the moment.

I think I should be taking out excess material in smaller chunks first then finishing with the shaped tool, but a plan to do this is puzzling me given the finished shape. It¡¯s taken a long time to get this far from a large chunk of aluminium and I don¡¯t want to ruin anything!


So far I¡¯m going in at one position. I did wonder if alternating cuts between two slightly altered positions (kind of left and right) would be beneficial - the cutter would (or might) only be using 50% of the cutting edge.


I¡¯m making three pulleys in all - one for the motor and one each for the lathe and mill.

As usual I have very little idea what I¡¯m doing so am looking to tap into folks wealth of knowledge and experience. Any tips gratefully received. Thanks!

(Sorry for the overlong post - the quick version would be ¡®How would you make a pulley groove?¡¯ :-)
Re: Tips on machining pulley grooves

 

You could try something completely different.? I actually did this myself on my old south bend lathe.
You could mount a router or dremel type tool and put a ball type cutter in it and plunge while rotating the head stock slowly or by hand.
Then you can sharpen a form cutter razor sharp and do your final .005 or .010".

You can probably do 0.010 - 0.020 depth of cuts on solid stock or plunge with a cutoff tool then mill with the router then finish with the form tool.

I created an 8" dia aluminum drum approx 12 inches long with a 0.25" pitch cable groove by engaging the threading (a bit jury rigged) on that lathe.
My U3 I am sure I could employ similar methods for straight grooves.


On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 4:12?PM Peter Brooks <peter@...> wrote:

As part of my 24v re-motoring exercise I¡¯m making new pulleys from aluminium. I¡¯m not finding it easy to machine the groove for the belt and would appreciate any tips (apart from ¡®buy them online¡¯ and ¡®do it on a bigger lathe¡¯ - I just have the U3).

I use ¡®O¡¯ rings for belts, they have a 5mm cross-section diameter. The finished inner diameter at the bottom of the groove will be 38mm. The pulley body is 9mm thick to allow for the flange portions either side of the groove.

For a cutter I first tried a 6mm drill bit cut off at 45 degrees and then milled clean. Blimey a drill bit is hard to saw with a hacksaw. Two blades later¡­ the endmill had no problem however.? The finished ¡®cutter¡¯ didn¡¯t cut very well though.

Next I ground a cutter (my first!) from a 6mm blank. Semi-circular, with a 6 degree angle, and some top relief (as recommended for aluminium I believe). This was moderately successful but it is doing more of a scrape than a cut. It is literally ¡®stop start¡¯. It did however produce some beautiful swarf, almost like snowflakes, or frost.




It is making pulleys - but painfully slowly. I have more material to remove and it is not working well at the moment.

I think I should be taking out excess material in smaller chunks first then finishing with the shaped tool, but a plan to do this is puzzling me given the finished shape. It¡¯s taken a long time to get this far from a large chunk of aluminium and I don¡¯t want to ruin anything!


So far I¡¯m going in at one position. I did wonder if alternating cuts between two slightly altered positions (kind of left and right) would be beneficial - the cutter would (or might) only be using 50% of the cutting edge.


I¡¯m making three pulleys in all - one for the motor and one each for the lathe and mill.

As usual I have very little idea what I¡¯m doing so am looking to tap into folks wealth of knowledge and experience. Any tips gratefully received. Thanks!

(Sorry for the overlong post - the quick version would be ¡®How would you make a pulley groove?¡¯ :-)
Re: What on earth are these?

 

That is true, for sure. And they may have been purchased for one, and used for the other, for that matter. I may never make the set I wanted, since the metal will cost more than a set from HF.?

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)

Aphorisms to live by:
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.?
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better.
Expect in one hand, expectorate in the other. See which one gets full first.



On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 09:35:05 PM CDT, Charles Kinzer <ckinzer@...> wrote:


I think it may be unknowable whether these were purchased for jewelry making or machinist inspection purposes.

Again, ones that look identical are sold by machinery supply houses.? Refer to the MSC page below and scroll down past the shouldered ones.? And you will see unshouldered ones just like the original poster's photo.? Unless other jewelry making doo dads (and there are all sorts of cool stuff in that industry) associated with the lathe they may have been used for a usual machinist purpose.? On the other hand, the wide variety of sizes is a vote for jewelry making.? On the third hand, you could buy ones for jewelry making and use them for machinist inspection purposes, or on the fourth hand buy inspection tooling balls and use them for jewelry making.



Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 02:51:01 PM PDT, Davis Johnson <davis@...> wrote:


A third option would be the "dent balls" used by brass instrument repair folks. They are forced thru a tube to push out dents. They generally don't have the stem that these have, and are frequently barrel shaped.

On 9/19/23 13:25, Charles Kinzer wrote:
I guess these could be either "tooling balls" or the devices for jewelry making.? Some of them look identical in photos.? I suppose one difference might be how accurately they are ground.? Being with a machine tool suggests to me they are more likely to be tooling balls which machinists use.

Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 10:20:37 AM PDT, Charles Kinzer <ckinzer@...> wrote:


I believe these are what are called "Tooling Balls".? They are typically used in the accurate positioning of work pieces.? The shank goes into a hole and then the surface of the ball is used as a reference.? Of course, actual position must be offset based on the diameter of the ball used.? This is similar to techniques using gauge pins, but the ball shape allows more versatility, such as if dealing with angles.

Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 10:11:23 AM PDT, Adrian Nicolson via groups.io <adrian_nicolson@...> wrote:


Commonly known as Dapping or Doming Punches...used predominately by the jewellery trades and crafts

Regards,
Adrian

On Tuesday, 19 September 2023, 18:06:20 BST, Andrei <calciu1@...> wrote:


That's exactly?what they are. There is a piece missing, which is the doming block (or blocks, in most cases).?

A full new set at Harbor Freight is less than 40 bucks. I would not pay much for this incomplete set.?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Peter Brooks <peter@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2023 1:01 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: [Unimat] What on earth are these?
?
Looks like they could be for beating metal to a dome shape¡­ but I have no idea. They were pictured with a lathe so probably metal-working related.
Re: What on earth are these?

 

? though I searched as dapping block set

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)

Aphorisms to live by:
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.?
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better.
Expect in one hand, expectorate in the other. See which one gets full first.



On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 12:20:35 PM CDT, Charles Kinzer <ckinzer@...> wrote:


I believe these are what are called "Tooling Balls".? They are typically used in the accurate positioning of work pieces.? The shank goes into a hole and then the surface of the ball is used as a reference.? Of course, actual position must be offset based on the diameter of the ball used.? This is similar to techniques using gauge pins, but the ball shape allows more versatility, such as if dealing with angles.

Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 10:11:23 AM PDT, Adrian Nicolson via groups.io <adrian_nicolson@...> wrote:


Commonly known as Dapping or Doming Punches...used predominately by the jewellery trades and crafts

Regards,
Adrian

On Tuesday, 19 September 2023, 18:06:20 BST, Andrei <calciu1@...> wrote:


That's exactly?what they are. There is a piece missing, which is the doming block (or blocks, in most cases).?

A full new set at Harbor Freight is less than 40 bucks. I would not pay much for this incomplete set.?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Peter Brooks <peter@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2023 1:01 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: [Unimat] What on earth are these?
?
Looks like they could be for beating metal to a dome shape¡­ but I have no idea. They were pictured with a lathe so probably metal-working related.
Re: What on earth are these?

 

They're for making domed shapes in precious sheet metal for jewelry making. One of the many things I intended to make for myself, one of these days. Finally got the lathe in 2008, took until last may to? learn to use the machine tools I've bought since then...

;)

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)

Aphorisms to live by:
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.?
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better.
Expect in one hand, expectorate in the other. See which one gets full first.



On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 12:01:31 PM CDT, Peter Brooks <peter@...> wrote:


Looks like they could be for beating metal to a dome shape¡­ but I have no idea. They were pictured with a lathe so probably metal-working related.
Re: What on earth are these?

 

I think it may be unknowable whether these were purchased for jewelry making or machinist inspection purposes.

Again, ones that look identical are sold by machinery supply houses.? Refer to the MSC page below and scroll down past the shouldered ones.? And you will see unshouldered ones just like the original poster's photo.? Unless other jewelry making doo dads (and there are all sorts of cool stuff in that industry) associated with the lathe they may have been used for a usual machinist purpose.? On the other hand, the wide variety of sizes is a vote for jewelry making.? On the third hand, you could buy ones for jewelry making and use them for machinist inspection purposes, or on the fourth hand buy inspection tooling balls and use them for jewelry making.



Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer
On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 02:51:01 PM PDT, Davis Johnson <davis@...> wrote:


A third option would be the "dent balls" used by brass instrument repair folks. They are forced thru a tube to push out dents. They generally don't have the stem that these have, and are frequently barrel shaped.

On 9/19/23 13:25, Charles Kinzer wrote:
I guess these could be either "tooling balls" or the devices for jewelry making.? Some of them look identical in photos.? I suppose one difference might be how accurately they are ground.? Being with a machine tool suggests to me they are more likely to be tooling balls which machinists use.

Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 10:20:37 AM PDT, Charles Kinzer <ckinzer@...> wrote:


I believe these are what are called "Tooling Balls".? They are typically used in the accurate positioning of work pieces.? The shank goes into a hole and then the surface of the ball is used as a reference.? Of course, actual position must be offset based on the diameter of the ball used.? This is similar to techniques using gauge pins, but the ball shape allows more versatility, such as if dealing with angles.

Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 10:11:23 AM PDT, Adrian Nicolson via groups.io <adrian_nicolson@...> wrote:


Commonly known as Dapping or Doming Punches...used predominately by the jewellery trades and crafts

Regards,
Adrian

On Tuesday, 19 September 2023, 18:06:20 BST, Andrei <calciu1@...> wrote:


That's exactly?what they are. There is a piece missing, which is the doming block (or blocks, in most cases).?

A full new set at Harbor Freight is less than 40 bucks. I would not pay much for this incomplete set.?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Peter Brooks <peter@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2023 1:01 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: [Unimat] What on earth are these?
?
Looks like they could be for beating metal to a dome shape¡­ but I have no idea. They were pictured with a lathe so probably metal-working related.
Re: Tips on machining pulley grooves

 

Another option if you can't shape a cutter.? ?Go to a chain saw shop or dealer and purchase a chain file, they come in various diameters, 3/32 or 1/4" would be good, put them on the tool holder or hand hold them you should be able to get a good finish fast.? ?Their teeth are on a diamond pattern as they are used to cut at an angle for sharpening chains.? ?Just my option.? ?Harbor Freight also has diamond burrs? for dremel tools with 1/8'' shanks that might work also.?

pat
Re: What on earth are these?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

A third option would be the "dent balls" used by brass instrument repair folks. They are forced thru a tube to push out dents. They generally don't have the stem that these have, and are frequently barrel shaped.

On 9/19/23 13:25, Charles Kinzer wrote:

I guess these could be either "tooling balls" or the devices for jewelry making.? Some of them look identical in photos.? I suppose one difference might be how accurately they are ground.? Being with a machine tool suggests to me they are more likely to be tooling balls which machinists use.

Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 10:20:37 AM PDT, Charles Kinzer <ckinzer@...> wrote:


I believe these are what are called "Tooling Balls".? They are typically used in the accurate positioning of work pieces.? The shank goes into a hole and then the surface of the ball is used as a reference.? Of course, actual position must be offset based on the diameter of the ball used.? This is similar to techniques using gauge pins, but the ball shape allows more versatility, such as if dealing with angles.

Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 10:11:23 AM PDT, Adrian Nicolson via groups.io <adrian_nicolson@...> wrote:


Commonly known as Dapping or Doming Punches...used predominately by the jewellery trades and crafts

Regards,
Adrian

On Tuesday, 19 September 2023, 18:06:20 BST, Andrei <calciu1@...> wrote:


That's exactly?what they are. There is a piece missing, which is the doming block (or blocks, in most cases).?

A full new set at Harbor Freight is less than 40 bucks. I would not pay much for this incomplete set.?
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Peter Brooks <peter@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2023 1:01 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: [Unimat] What on earth are these?
?
Looks like they could be for beating metal to a dome shape¡­ but I have no idea. They were pictured with a lathe so probably metal-working related.
Re: Tips on machining pulley grooves

 

Building the new pulley out of 2 or 3 pieces seems like it might be a good approach.
?
-Guy-

On 09/16/2023 5:32 PM EDT Julius Henry Marx <sawbona@...> wrote:
?
?
On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 06:20 PM, Peter Brooks wrote:

... the U3 probably isn¡¯t quite up to the task.
There's a more than one way to skin a cat, just that sometimes you have to push the envelope a bit more than would otherwise be comfortable.
I was in the exact same spot, did not want to spend absurd money on something I was (reasonably) sure I could make myself but only had my Unimat 3 to work with.

Check thread at ME.

Best,

JHM

Re: What on earth are these?

 

Except not all tooling balls have that shoulder.? Those are sometimes called "shoulder balls".

For example:??


Inline image
Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 10:56:47 AM PDT, Peter Brooks <peter@...> wrote:


Thanks Carl.


Come to think of I think I¡¯ve seen something similar being used on a television programme we have here in the UK, ¡®The Repair Shop¡¯ - people bring old (special to them) things to get restored by some excellent craftspeople. It¡¯s better than it sounds.
Re: What on earth are these?

 

Thanks Carl.


Come to think of I think I¡¯ve seen something similar being used on a television programme we have here in the UK, ¡®The Repair Shop¡¯ - people bring old (special to them) things to get restored by some excellent craftspeople. It¡¯s better than it sounds.
Re: What on earth are these?

 

They were with an Emco Compact 5 at a local sale room auction here in the UK, if that is any clue.

(The lathe went for ~?200 + 38% (auction house charges, VAT etc.). I made one cheeky bid in case it went for really silly money but I hadn¡¯t seen it in person, so had no idea if it was metric or imperial, or working or not. ?Someone might have got a bargain methinks).
Re: What on earth are these?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Hello Peter:

They are part of a punching block set:

They are similar to tooling balls, that are used for set up work:

Te-Co Precision Tooling Ball, 1/2 in W 10852

The main difference is the tooling ball shoulder is a known distance from the center of the ball, and the ball is true to the shank. Handy for setting up angled work.

Carl.

On 9/19/2023 1:01 PM, Peter Brooks wrote:

Looks like they could be for beating metal to a dome shape¡­ but I have no idea. They were pictured with a lathe so probably metal-working related.
Re: What on earth are these?

 

Doming Punches or Tooling Balls ?
Re: What on earth are these?

 

I guess these could be either "tooling balls" or the devices for jewelry making.? Some of them look identical in photos.? I suppose one difference might be how accurately they are ground.? Being with a machine tool suggests to me they are more likely to be tooling balls which machinists use.

Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 10:20:37 AM PDT, Charles Kinzer <ckinzer@...> wrote:


I believe these are what are called "Tooling Balls".? They are typically used in the accurate positioning of work pieces.? The shank goes into a hole and then the surface of the ball is used as a reference.? Of course, actual position must be offset based on the diameter of the ball used.? This is similar to techniques using gauge pins, but the ball shape allows more versatility, such as if dealing with angles.

Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 10:11:23 AM PDT, Adrian Nicolson via groups.io <adrian_nicolson@...> wrote:


Commonly known as Dapping or Doming Punches...used predominately by the jewellery trades and crafts

Regards,
Adrian

On Tuesday, 19 September 2023, 18:06:20 BST, Andrei <calciu1@...> wrote:


That's exactly?what they are. There is a piece missing, which is the doming block (or blocks, in most cases).?

A full new set at Harbor Freight is less than 40 bucks. I would not pay much for this incomplete set.?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Peter Brooks <peter@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2023 1:01 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: [Unimat] What on earth are these?
?
Looks like they could be for beating metal to a dome shape¡­ but I have no idea. They were pictured with a lathe so probably metal-working related.
Re: What on earth are these?

 

Ah!
Re: What on earth are these?

 

I believe these are what are called "Tooling Balls".? They are typically used in the accurate positioning of work pieces.? The shank goes into a hole and then the surface of the ball is used as a reference.? Of course, actual position must be offset based on the diameter of the ball used.? This is similar to techniques using gauge pins, but the ball shape allows more versatility, such as if dealing with angles.

Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 10:11:23 AM PDT, Adrian Nicolson via groups.io <adrian_nicolson@...> wrote:


Commonly known as Dapping or Doming Punches...used predominately by the jewellery trades and crafts

Regards,
Adrian

On Tuesday, 19 September 2023, 18:06:20 BST, Andrei <calciu1@...> wrote:


That's exactly?what they are. There is a piece missing, which is the doming block (or blocks, in most cases).?

A full new set at Harbor Freight is less than 40 bucks. I would not pay much for this incomplete set.?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Peter Brooks <peter@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2023 1:01 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: [Unimat] What on earth are these?
?
Looks like they could be for beating metal to a dome shape¡­ but I have no idea. They were pictured with a lathe so probably metal-working related.
Re: What on earth are these?

 

Ah, thanks. Presumably the doming block(s) would be the inverse, and the sheet metal goes in between?
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