Re: That Dang Wooden Box¡
Consistency?!? A few weeks ago, I bought some 3/4" plywood from Home Depot (a large north American box store);? When I got it back to the set shop, I discovered that one of the sheets was really poorly formed- large sections were only about 1/2" thick, and you could see entire layers of ply missing on the sides.? Junk!? But I still might use it because I need to cut half of a 4' diameter circle out of it.??
Last year I bought a sheet of better plywood (7 ply) from the same store, and it seemed kind of odd in the center.? When I cut in half, it came apart- basically, the center portion had no glue at all (or it wasn't bonded), and the two pieces "sprang open" with a 4-5" gap in the center.? Like pita bread opening up in the middle.? I took them back to the store and got my money back.??
The worst wood seems to appear on weekends, when all the DIYers show up.
-Dave
On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 10:52:58 PM PDT, Peter Brooks <peter@...> wrote:
Ply does have the benefit of consistency (usually)!
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Re: That Dang Wooden Box¡
Is sugar pine ever sold as such?? I don't know how well it cuts or how strong it is, but if you ever see someone in a western forrest with their nose stuck in the bark of a large pine tree, it will probably be me!? The smell is somewhere between honey and light molasses.??
-Dave? (tree hugger AND sniffer)
On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 08:53:40 PM PDT, Kevin Groenke @ PersonMakeObject via groups.io <groen004@...> wrote:
Hey Wade My original DB200 box is a fine grained softwood. My first inclination is that it's Ponderosa Pine, but softwoods are notoriously difficult to ID positively. If the box was made in Europe, it's unlikely to be Ponderosa. (I do have some background in wood taxonomy).?
All that said, this box has survived for 50 years and there is no reason a box made with similar materials and methods today shouldn't last as long. If I was going to make such a box, I would put the top and bottom in captive grooves rather than just glueijg and nailing them on as that method was inherently failure prone due to cross grain wood movement.
For the sides today, I would probably look for straight grained Douglas Fir to resaw to appropriate thickness, then finish with a blond shellac to get the amber tone of the original box.? Kevin Groenke
human of planet earth
Tamra, my two boxes are solid wood sides with plywood on top and bottom. I can make box joints fine and have all the tools needed for this. I am trying to identify the wood used in my box. It is very stiff and very light. Under the stain, it is a honey-blond color.
I already have my design laid out and the table saw is ready to rip. I supposed I need to take the two-hour roundtrip drive to the "good" lumber yard in my area and have them identify it (and sell me what I need). But I wanted to try to pick the wood up locally at our "less-than-good" lumber yard. They won't know what it is, but they can get me whatever I want to order and then do the basic ripping to save me some saw time.
If I find out *for certain* what it is I will post back here. I was just hoping we had a carpenter or cabinet maker amongst us here who knows this specific box. I don't need it to be an exact copy, but using solid wood with box joints is a part of the plan, as is the nailed-on top, hardware, and the Unimat tag. I will probably stain it walnut, as one of my two boxes has that and it looks great to me. (The other is a more reddish-brown that I like a little less.)
Thanks, everyone!
Wade
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Re: That Dang Wooden Box¡
?
Caution:? Viewing this video may result in need to save money so you can buy this cool tool.
That¡¯s a really good bit of lateral thinking by them. Looks great for small components, compound angles - and the ¡®male¡¯ side of dovetails.
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Re: That Dang Wooden Box¡
Ideally the timber should be quarter sawn. Imagine a board taken right through the middle section of a tree (discarding the heartwood). The annular rings run vertically, and any movement (distortion) will be minimalised - it will shrink or expand in a much more regular manner, keeping its rectangular shape.
By comparison a board cut ¡®through and through¡¯ is much more likely to distort. The wood in Kevin¡¯s photo looks close to quartered, good regular ¡®rings¡¯ on the surface instead of a wide, chaotic figure (rings not hitting the surface at 90 degrees). A bit of Googling will explain it better than I can.
The other thing is to obtain timber that has been properly dried, rather than some intended for building work (and thus just air-dried). You could look at recycling (¡®upcycling¡¯?) a pine chest of drawers or other item of furniture maybe. You would know that it was properly dry.
I¡¯m in the UK so things will be different here. Years ago there seemed to be a much wider range of softwoods available. Shelves were often made of ¡®Piranha Pine¡¯, and you could buy the incredibly stable Yellow Pine used in pattern making.
Ply does have the benefit of consistency (usually)!
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Re: That Dang Wooden Box¡
Kevin Groenke @ PersonMakeObject
Hey Wade My original DB200 box is a fine grained softwood. My first inclination is that it's Ponderosa Pine, but softwoods are notoriously difficult to ID positively. If the box was made in Europe, it's unlikely to be Ponderosa. (I do have some background in wood taxonomy).?
All that said, this box has survived for 50 years and there is no reason a box made with similar materials and methods today shouldn't last as long. If I was going to make such a box, I would put the top and bottom in captive grooves rather than just glueijg and nailing them on as that method was inherently failure prone due to cross grain wood movement.
For the sides today, I would probably look for straight grained Douglas Fir to resaw to appropriate thickness, then finish with a blond shellac to get the amber tone of the original box.? Kevin Groenke
human of planet earth
Tamra, my two boxes are solid wood sides with plywood on top and bottom. I can make box joints fine and have all the tools needed for this. I am trying to identify the wood used in my box. It is very stiff and very light. Under the stain, it is a honey-blond color.
I already have my design laid out and the table saw is ready to rip. I supposed I need to take the two-hour roundtrip drive to the "good" lumber yard in my area and have them identify it (and sell me what I need). But I wanted to try to pick the wood up locally at our "less-than-good" lumber yard. They won't know what it is, but they can get me whatever I want to order and then do the basic ripping to save me some saw time.
If I find out *for certain* what it is I will post back here. I was just hoping we had a carpenter or cabinet maker amongst us here who knows this specific box. I don't need it to be an exact copy, but using solid wood with box joints is a part of the plan, as is the nailed-on top, hardware, and the Unimat tag. I will probably stain it walnut, as one of my two boxes has that and it looks great to me. (The other is a more reddish-brown that I like a little less.)
Thanks, everyone!
Wade
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Re: That Dang Wooden Box¡
Tamra, my two boxes are solid wood sides with plywood on top and bottom. I can make box joints fine and have all the tools needed for this. I am trying to identify the wood used in my box. It is very stiff and very light. Under the stain, it is a honey-blond color.
I already have my design laid out and the table saw is ready to rip. I supposed I need to take the two-hour roundtrip drive to the "good" lumber yard in my area and have them identify it (and sell me what I need). But I wanted to try to pick the wood up locally at our "less-than-good" lumber yard. They won't know what it is, but they can get me whatever I want to order and then do the basic ripping to save me some saw time.
If I find out *for certain* what it is I will post back here. I was just hoping we had a carpenter or cabinet maker amongst us here who knows this specific box. I don't need it to be an exact copy, but using solid wood with box joints is a part of the plan, as is the nailed-on top, hardware, and the Unimat tag. I will probably stain it walnut, as one of my two boxes has that and it looks great to me. (The other is a more reddish-brown that I like a little less.)
Thanks, everyone!
Wade
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Re: That Dang Wooden Box¡
And if you want to be fussy, you can hand cut dovetails for your box, and then use any wood your head or heart desires.
I think the jointmaker pro from bridge city tools is one of the coolest saws I have ever seen for a hand operated saw.
The ultimate saw for the person who is very fond of her fingers.
Caution:? Viewing this video may result in need to save money so you can buy this cool tool.
FYI:? I've been unsuccessful in ripping lengths of wood with this, so you have to use a real table saw to make 1/12th scale floors.
But it is a dream from cross cutting.
Tamra
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Re: That Dang Wooden Box¡
The joints are also called box joints.
Tamra
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Re: That Dang Wooden Box¡
I'm am pretty sure, this box was made with Pine Plywood and finger joints, which, even I can manage on a table saw, with a finger joint jig, if the blade was not so far back from me... I'm vertically challenged.? ??You can see lots of videos on making a jig for your table saw, it is a pretty cool when you use the jig for the finger joints.? Note, I've only done this in 1/12th scale box making class, under instruction and on a preac table saw; the box would be larger then any of my miniature table saw tops, so this would have to be done on a contractors or normal size table saw.
if you are a book or magazine person, there is a lot of instruction on this basic jig for finger joint to use on a table saw.
I Baltic Birch comes in 3/8" or 9 mm plywood.??
Due to the weight of the lathe in proportion to the strength of the plywood, I would not use 1/8" or 1/4" thickness of plywood.? Solid wood will give you the most strength though.... probably overkill to use solid wood.
My husband had me watch a guy from Canada make small boxes for an organizer tonite, but I can't find the video now.
I have not done this yet, either, but love this concept for boxes; it would be interesting to do this box for the unimat...
He is using a very thin plywood in this box, but I really do like this concept, and I have used our standard router router before.
I can double check with my husband tomorrow that it is pine, but he is already asleep, and if I am wrong, I will post tomorrow.
Tamra
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Re: That Dang Wooden Box¡
I would only use Baltic birch for all panels.? I do not see many other choices.? Get a Minwax stain chart from the hardware store.? Something should be close.
Are you staining after cutting and before assembly?? Satin varnish?? I think only oil-based stain and varnish.
As far as joints, a decent plywood blade in a table saw should do fine.? If you try a general purpose blade, you are taking a chance.
Small glued interior corner bracing all around would help.? If you want to put in nails to duplicate the original appearance, measure out and predrill the holes in a drill press first.? Carefully sand very small angles on all outside edges with a finishing sander if you think that you can hold a good line.
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Re: That Dang Wooden Box¡
Yes, I see what you mean now. I've had trouble with box joints in birch ply as well.
My box sides looks a lot like pine to me - a softwood with uneven grain and some good size knots. You could plane down some clear pine jamb material - I'll bet that would work nicely. I haven't sanded or scratched it to see what the original color is though.
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On Aug 19, 2023, at 1:52 PM, Pachyderm <mirafone186@...> wrote:
I have had bad luck cutting clean box joints in plywood. I mentioned above, however, that I have some nice 6 mm (.25") Baltic birch plywood (from a subwoofer enclosure project I did) that would work nicely for the base and top. I am looking for the same side wood used in these old boxes. It ticks all my boxes. I do not want it to be really heavy. I like the original wood quite a bit for this application.
Thanks for the ideas, though.
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Re: That Dang Wooden Box¡
I have had bad luck cutting clean box joints in plywood. I mentioned above, however, that I have some nice 6 mm (.25") Baltic birch plywood (from a subwoofer enclosure project I did) that would work nicely for the base and top. I am looking for the same side wood used in these old boxes. It ticks all my boxes. I do not want it to be really heavy. I like the original wood quite a bit for this application.
Thanks for the ideas, though.
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Re: That Dang Wooden Box¡
Mine is prime example of how good it is!!!
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On Aug 19, 2023, at 1:14 PM, Steve Johnson <steve@...> wrote:
? IMO, the original boxes are made of some pretty cheap wood. I'd opt for using a much better wood and staining it to be close to the original color. My go-to for these sorts of projects is Baltic Birch. There are zero voids in this plywood and
it is super sturdy.?
Hey, folks¡
I have increased the footprint and height of my SL (addition of the power feed, a baseplate, and a QCTP) so that the use of the original box is no longer possible.?
I want to copy the box using the same wood used in the side plates, but nicer stuff for the base and lid.??(I have some very nice, thin Baltic birch plywood for the top and base.) What is the wood used for the side panels of the box and lid? Does anyone know
for sure? I like the thickness and weight, and I wish to retain that. I plan to make box joints and try to copy the original as much as possible, to the point of tacking the original metal tag to the new one.
I have all the tools and can easily make one of these, but generally, I have very little knowledge of different species of wood, so what these boxes are constructed of is a mystery to me.
Thanks!
Wade
<IMG_0575.jpeg>
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Re: That Dang Wooden Box¡
IMO, the original boxes are made of some pretty cheap wood. I'd opt for using a much better wood and staining it to be close to the original color. My go-to for these sorts of projects is Baltic Birch. There are zero voids in this plywood and it is super sturdy.?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hey, folks¡
I have increased the footprint and height of my SL (addition of the power feed, a baseplate, and a QCTP) so that the use of the original box is no longer possible.?
I want to copy the box using the same wood used in the side plates, but nicer stuff for the base and lid.??(I have some very nice, thin Baltic birch plywood for the top and base.) What is the wood used for the side panels of the box and lid? Does anyone know for sure? I like the thickness and weight, and I wish to retain that. I plan to make box joints and try to copy the original as much as possible, to the point of tacking the original metal tag to the new one.
I have all the tools and can easily make one of these, but generally, I have very little knowledge of different species of wood, so what these boxes are constructed of is a mystery to me.
Thanks!
Wade
<IMG_0575.jpeg>
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Hey, folks¡ I have increased the footprint and height of my SL (addition of the power feed, a baseplate, and a QCTP) so that the use of the original box is no longer possible.? I want to copy the box using the same wood used in the side plates, but nicer stuff for the base and lid.??(I have some very nice, thin Baltic birch plywood for the top and base.) What is the wood used for the side panels of the box and lid? Does anyone know for sure? I like the thickness and weight, and I wish to retain that. I plan to make box joints and try to copy the original as much as possible, to the point of tacking the original metal tag to the new one. I have all the tools and can easily make one of these, but generally, I have very little knowledge of different species of wood, so what these boxes are constructed of is a mystery to me. Thanks! Wade 
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Yup paper chips are always less expensive than metal chips. Designs lead by manufacturing capabilities are always more successful. I remember Nimonic maybe 400? being considered for our highest stressed components. In the end we settled on inconel 718 precipitation hardened.?
Always a challenge balancing material properties against manufacturability.?
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 01:26 PM, Tool247 wrote:
The work hardening issue is common among all austenitic stainless alloys all the way up to the high nickel super alloys like inconels and monels.
?
When Dad designed his experimental plant to determine the properties of steam at high temperature and pressure (800¡ãC, 1000 Bar - 1472¡ãF, 14500 psi) everything had to be made of Nimonic - primarily a nickel chrome alloy. (It's a descendant, via the early jet engines, of the nichrome wire used in electric fire elements.) The college got some bars and put them on the donkey saw to cut the end off one. At the end of the day they'd used up their stock of blades and were still only halfway through. He went to Wiggin Nickel, who put the bar up on what looked like a modern chop saw (this was 1950s). The blade was a disc of soft iron, but it went round very fast. It chopped off the bar, with a huge shower of sparks, and the disc was half the size. Chuck the remnants away, fit a new disc, and they were ready burn through the next cut.
One component needed a ?" diameter hole drilled 12" deep into solid Nimonic. He was very concerned about how to do it as any work hardening would scrap the whole job, but he discovered someone in Bristol had made something similar a few years before. He went down to Bristol to see what he could learn, and took a technician from the workshops with him. While Dad chatted about the rig design with the Bristol academic, the technician discussed machining techniques with the guy who had done the work. After that Dad was considered a VIP in the workshops. No academic had ever before (and maybe not since) thought to get his technician that involved in the project as to actually take him out as part of the team. He subsequently made many complex components in Nimonic, and (I've just checked) says in the Acknowledgements of his PhD thesis Dad says: "My thanks are due to Mr A. M. Alger, of the Imperial College Chemical Engineering Workshops, without whose skill the plant could not have been built"
It was typical of Dad that whilst being? leading academic in his field, constantly dealing with advanced maths and tricky statistics, he was very aware of the everyday practicalities and difficulties of simply making stuff - not always simply. I recall the name Alger coming up quite often during chats at home. Maybe this is part of the reason I always like to be in touch with the people who make the machinery I design, and to try to avoid difficulties at the design stage.
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On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 01:26 PM, Tool247 wrote:
The work hardening issue is common among all austenitic stainless alloys all the way up to the high nickel super alloys like inconels and monels.
?
When Dad designed his experimental plant to determine the properties of steam at high temperature and pressure (800¡ãC, 1000 Bar - 1472¡ãF, 14500 psi) everything had to be made of Nimonic - primarily a nickel chrome alloy. (It's a descendant, via the early jet engines, of the nichrome wire used in electric fire elements.) The college got some bars and put them on the donkey saw to cut the end off one. At the end of the day they'd used up their stock of blades and were still only halfway through. He went to Wiggin Nickel, who put the bar up on what looked like a modern chop saw (this was 1950s). The blade was a disc of soft iron, but it went round very fast. It chopped off the bar, with a huge shower of sparks, and the disc was half the size. Chuck the remnants away, fit a new disc, and they were ready burn through the next cut. One component needed a ?" diameter hole drilled 12" deep into solid Nimonic. He was very concerned about how to do it as any work hardening would scrap the whole job, but he discovered someone in Bristol had made something similar a few years before. He went down to Bristol to see what he could learn, and took a technician from the workshops with him. While Dad chatted about the rig design with the Bristol academic, the technician discussed machining techniques with the guy who had done the work. After that Dad was considered a VIP in the workshops. No academic had ever before (and maybe not since) thought to get his technician that involved in the project as to actually take him out as part of the team. He subsequently made many complex components in Nimonic, and (I've just checked) says in the Acknowledgements of his PhD thesis Dad says: "My thanks are due to Mr A. M. Alger, of the Imperial College Chemical Engineering Workshops, without whose skill the plant could not have been built" It was typical of Dad that whilst being? leading academic in his field, constantly dealing with advanced maths and tricky statistics, he was very aware of the everyday practicalities and difficulties of simply making stuff - not always simply. I recall the name Alger coming up quite often during chats at home. Maybe this is part of the reason I always like to be in touch with the people who make the machinery I design, and to try to avoid difficulties at the design stage.
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Re: Unimat 3 Milling Head; upgrading the vertical column
It is 3/4 - 1" river stone.? The pile is spare for the driveway.? It makes a fair backdrop. Where we live(NJ) it is all clay, basaltic rock, shale.
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 8:18?PM old_toolmaker via <old_toolmaker= [email protected]> wrote: John,
Nice job on the SL! I like your vertical micrometer adjustment!
From your picture it appears you might live in an area with a lot of small smooth stones. It reminds me of the ?north shore of Lake Superior.
Dick
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forum/?OFF-SET-tailstock-center-65965#post105972
?SMALL TURRET TOOL POST PLANS?
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?MINI LATHE COMPOUND PIVOT MODIFICATION
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Re: Unimat 3 Milling Head; upgrading the vertical column
John,
Nice job on the SL! I like your vertical micrometer adjustment!
From your picture it appears you might live in an area with a lot of small smooth stones. It reminds me of the ?north shore of Lake Superior.
Dick
--
http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/?OFF-SET-tailstock-center-65965#post105972
?SMALL TURRET TOOL POST PLANS?
?LARGE TURRET TOOL POST PLANS
?MINI-LATHE CARRIAGE LOCK PLANS
?SMALL QC TOOL POST PLANS?
?QUICK CHANGE LATHE TURRET
?MINI LATHE COMPOUND PIVOT MODIFICATION
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That is a really cool story. Reminded me of my college days.? I grew up in central NY and got a scholarship to go away to school at Wentworth Institute of Technology in Boston.? Those days Wentworth was trying to up its game from its 1904 tech school reputation to a 20th then 21st century university.? They had lots of money so they were buying up all kinds of real estate around Boston.? The old Boston Trade School was across the street so they bought up all the buildings there.? In the basement were several huge lathes.? You had to sit on a chair on the saddle as you turned- with those machines.? I was told that during World War 2 that school and shop were commandeered by the US Navy to make warship cannon barrels.? Turned, gun drilled and bored......same thing...amazing machinery that held an important place in history.?
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 12:31?PM pat goodyear < pgoodyear@...> wrote: So prior to my commercial Nuclear Power plant days, I was an ET (electronics technician) in the Navy, specialty was Reactor Operator in submarines, actually I was the Leading Reactor Operator on both of the submarines I served on, SSN621 and SSN605.? ?So on deployment my submarine damaged the hydraulic ram on the fairwater planes ( the ones on the sail ) and we went back to the tender to have it fixed.? ?This is the second time I had seen a massive lathe at work.? ?The machinists on the tender had to MAKE a new ram?from bar stock on a 20-30 foot long lathe.? No biggie you say.? ?The bar stock in question was a ten" x20 '? chunk of hex K-Monel.? The lathe ran 24/7 for a week straight to shape and not warp the ram, I think the shaft diameter was around 4" and the disc was about 8". I remember chips flying off of the machine red turning blue in flight.? The lathe was turning at a slow speed so as not to heat up the stock.? ?First massive lathe was in the shipyards in Vallejo where they Bored the re-poured babbit out of the submarines's main shaft bearing, it was, 100 feet long 28" in diameter standing 60 feet off of the drydock floor.?
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Pachyderm
Steve Johnson
Tool247
OldToolmaker