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Re: Triangular Gib Key For Unimat Vertical Column

 

For all of the discussion on the subject, how many people here have actually done this?
Re: Emco Unimat 3 Keep Plate Material?

 

What size of "oilon" is used?? Has anyone here used this before, and where do you buy in the US?? The cheapest that I found on Ebay is $105 for 12"x12"x.250.
Re: Internal groove?

 

I've actually done that when I worked in a machine shop. The machine needs to be locked into its lowest gear and isolated and the tool carefully set to centre height, but the job is quite straightforward. However, it's not as good as using a dedicated slotter, or a slotting attachment on a Bridgeport.

Paul B.


On Saturday 14 December 2024 at 11:03:08 GMT, Charles Kinzer <ckinzer@...> wrote:


I had seen more than once examples of making a keyway using a lathe like a shaper.? By traversing the carriage back and forth manually.

Found this video showing exactly that.



Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer


On Saturday, December 14, 2024 at 02:16:15 AM PST, Peter Brooks via groups.io <peter@...> wrote:


Thanks Richard, and for the link.
?
The page on ‘Involute Broaches’ shows some tooling of triangular section, looks like that is likely.
?
Back and forth I guess, with a constant downward pressure. Which led me to look at ‘broaching machines’.
?
You learn something everyday. ‘Life long learning’, as they say.
Re: Triangular Gib Key For Unimat Vertical Column

 

You're still going to need a relatively large milling machine. The table on my mini-mill is just over 15" long, and I'm not at all sure how close you can get to the ends. I got to use several Bridgeport clones with tables around 50" in my class, and it would have been a snap to do it on one of those. The post I have does have a feature that would help index it, though. That would allow moving it down the table to make multiple cuts if necessary.

Bill in OKC?

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)

Aphorisms to live by:
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.?
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better.
Expect in one hand, expectorate in the other. See which one gets full first.



On Saturday, December 14, 2024 at 11:47:13 AM CST, Steve via groups.io <srjones@...> wrote:


What is the shape of the desired grove? Is it a triangle?
If the use of a mill is available, then I would use a 45 Deg dovetail
end mill to cut the grove in the column. Lay and clamp the column on
it's side and cut on the forward face of the column, not the top!! Use
the X to cut the length and the Y to cut the depth.

Steve


On 11/26/2024 7:06 PM, OldToolmaker via groups.io wrote:
A few years ago I became interested in David Urwick’s triangular gib key
for use on my Unimat vertical column to maintain rotational position
when raising or lowering the head.
It has bean a great help to me as rotational position can now be fixed
while raising or lowering the head. An example of its use is when a long
slot must be cut in a vertical column. I have had this requirement on
several occasions and now I have a means of doing just that.
Maybe others can benefit from this also.
Dick
--
?OFF-SET-tailstock-center-65965#post105972

<>?SMALL
TURRET TOOL POST PLANS

<>?LARGE
TURRET TOOL POST PLANS

<>?MINI-LATHE
CARRIAGE LOCK PLANS

<>?SMALL
QC TOOL POST PLANS

<>?QUICK
CHANGE LATHE TURRET

<>?MINI
LATHE COMPOUND PIVOT MODIFICATION

17342018269592428808680361724954.jpg

Re: Internal groove?

 

Yes! I've drooled over a couple of "small" planers, but they're considerably larger than a small shaper. Not nearly enough room in my shop, so gave up on that idea.?

Bill in OKC?

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)

Aphorisms to live by:
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.?
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better.
Expect in one hand, expectorate in the other. See which one gets full first.



On Saturday, December 14, 2024 at 11:42:53 AM CST, Charles Kinzer <ckinzer@...> wrote:


Yes.? Shapers were once pretty common.? The production drawback was the time wasted on the back stroke which, of course, does no cutting.? They are designed (usually a straight mechanical design but a hydraulic scheme came later) so the backstroke is faster than the cut stroke to help at least a little bit.

Since this group has a small machine focus, there have even been hobbyist sized shapers, notably by Adept in England (almost made a small lathe popular with hobbyists), that are hand powered.? You can see that here:


A planer (for metal, not like a wood planer) is another machine some may not be aware of.? It is a cousin to the shaper, but typically larger, much larger, where the tool bit is stationary, and a long table holding the work piece moves to and fro.

Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer



On Saturday, December 14, 2024 at 09:24:33 AM PST, Peter Brooks via groups.io <peter@...> wrote:


Ah, like this:
?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA_i5-kKv3s
?
(Yet another machine I never knew existed! :-)
Re: Internal groove?

 

I've seen a table saw used to cut aluminum for motor mounts for McCullough chainsaw motors for my uncles racing go-karts. Not seen steel cut that way. Think the table saw would run too fast for that in steel.?

A slitting saw on a horizontal milling machine would likely work for rough stock removal. Could also work on a vertical mill. I've got one of each, if I can get farther into my project list, I may be able to find out. Also have some side milling cutters for the horizontal mill. And it may be closer to operational than the HF mini-mill. One of these days I need to buy a machine tools that's ready to run! ?

Bill in OKC?

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)

Aphorisms to live by:
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.?
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better.
Expect in one hand, expectorate in the other. See which one gets full first.



On Saturday, December 14, 2024 at 11:40:22 AM CST, pat goodyear <pgoodyear@...> wrote:


Cutting a grove on the milling column, a couple of methods come to mind.? You could use a carbide blade on a table saw, lock the column so it couldn't rotate and make a couple shallow passes with the table saw.? ?Another way would be to use a key way cutter in a router on a router table and cut a grove that way, or use a dovetail cutter to cut a triangular grove in the milling column.? ?As for the head only a small depth would be needed and using a dremel with a diamond burr would be sufficient to hog off material, and finish with a file using it as a gouge to cut the square shape.?
?
?Just my old school farm boy raised thoughts, oh and my dad was a blacksmith.?
?
pat
Re: Internal groove?

 

Yep! So you need to find a neighbor? who has one, if possible.??

Bill in OKC?

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)

Aphorisms to live by:
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.?
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better.
Expect in one hand, expectorate in the other. See which one gets full first.



On Saturday, December 14, 2024 at 11:24:31 AM CST, Peter Brooks via groups.io <peter@...> wrote:


Ah, like this:
?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA_i5-kKv3s
?
(Yet another machine I never knew existed! :-)
Re: Internal groove?

 

Correction.? I meant Adept "also made a small lathe...", not "almost made a small lathe..."

Don't know why my brain is making such mistakes.? Must be age.

Incidentally, for those who may not know, that lathes.co.uk site is an absolute treasure trove.? I don't see it at his site now, but recently he offered a copy of the entire site on a USB drive for a fair price, and, of course, you get to keep the USB drive.? Naturally, it is the site as of a certain date as it keeps growing.? But it was (is?) a way to have a huge archive in case the online one goes away at some point.

Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer?

On Saturday, December 14, 2024 at 09:42:47 AM PST, Charles Kinzer <ckinzer@...> wrote:


Yes.? Shapers were once pretty common.? The production drawback was the time wasted on the back stroke which, of course, does no cutting.? They are designed (usually a straight mechanical design but a hydraulic scheme came later) so the backstroke is faster than the cut stroke to help at least a little bit.

Since this group has a small machine focus, there have even been hobbyist sized shapers, notably by Adept in England (almost made a small lathe popular with hobbyists), that are hand powered.? You can see that here:


A planer (for metal, not like a wood planer) is another machine some may not be aware of.? It is a cousin to the shaper, but typically larger, much larger, where the tool bit is stationary, and a long table holding the work piece moves to and fro.

Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer



On Saturday, December 14, 2024 at 09:24:33 AM PST, Peter Brooks via groups.io <peter@...> wrote:


Ah, like this:
?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA_i5-kKv3s
?
(Yet another machine I never knew existed! :-)
Re: Tapmatic 70x Reversible Tapping Attachment #10-5/8 Capacity up for auction on shopgoodwill.com.

Andrei
 

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Remember you will need the collets for this to work

Get

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Richard Burrows via groups.io <bluerandonee@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2024 12:35:02 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: [Unimat] Tapmatic 70x Reversible Tapping Attachment #10-5/8 Capacity up for auction on shopgoodwill.com.
?
There is a Tapmatic 70x Reversible Tapping Attachment #10-5/8 Capacity up for auction on shopgoodwill.com
This might be useful for someone who has a larger lathe, I have a DB200 so this is to big for mine.
Looks like it could be a morse taper 2...
?
URL:
https://shopgoodwill.com/item/217491933
?
Richard
?
Re: Triangular Gib Key For Unimat Vertical Column

 

What is the shape of the desired grove? Is it a triangle?
If the use of a mill is available, then I would use a 45 Deg dovetail
end mill to cut the grove in the column. Lay and clamp the column on
it's side and cut on the forward face of the column, not the top!! Use
the X to cut the length and the Y to cut the depth.

Steve


On 11/26/2024 7:06 PM, OldToolmaker via groups.io wrote:
A few years ago I became interested in David Urwick’s triangular gib key
for use on my Unimat vertical column to maintain rotational position
when raising or lowering the head.
It has bean a great help to me as rotational position can now be fixed
while raising or lowering the head. An example of its use is when a long
slot must be cut in a vertical column. I have had this requirement on
several occasions and now I have a means of doing just that.
Maybe others can benefit from this also.
Dick
--
?OFF-SET-tailstock-center-65965#post105972

<>?SMALL
TURRET TOOL POST PLANS

<>?LARGE
TURRET TOOL POST PLANS

<>?MINI-LATHE
CARRIAGE LOCK PLANS

<>?SMALL
QC TOOL POST PLANS

<>?QUICK
CHANGE LATHE TURRET

<>?MINI
LATHE COMPOUND PIVOT MODIFICATION
Re: Internal groove?

 

Yes.? Shapers were once pretty common.? The production drawback was the time wasted on the back stroke which, of course, does no cutting.? They are designed (usually a straight mechanical design but a hydraulic scheme came later) so the backstroke is faster than the cut stroke to help at least a little bit.

Since this group has a small machine focus, there have even been hobbyist sized shapers, notably by Adept in England (almost made a small lathe popular with hobbyists), that are hand powered.? You can see that here:


A planer (for metal, not like a wood planer) is another machine some may not be aware of.? It is a cousin to the shaper, but typically larger, much larger, where the tool bit is stationary, and a long table holding the work piece moves to and fro.

Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer



On Saturday, December 14, 2024 at 09:24:33 AM PST, Peter Brooks via groups.io <peter@...> wrote:


Ah, like this:
?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA_i5-kKv3s
?
(Yet another machine I never knew existed! :-)
Re: Internal groove?

 

Cutting a grove on the milling column, a couple of methods come to mind.? You could use a carbide blade on a table saw, lock the column so it couldn't rotate and make a couple shallow passes with the table saw.? ?Another way would be to use a key way cutter in a router on a router table and cut a grove that way, or use a dovetail cutter to cut a triangular grove in the milling column.? ?As for the head only a small depth would be needed and using a dremel with a diamond burr would be sufficient to hog off material, and finish with a file using it as a gouge to cut the square shape.?
?
?Just my old school farm boy raised thoughts, oh and my dad was a blacksmith.?
?
pat
Tapmatic 70x Reversible Tapping Attachment #10-5/8 Capacity up for auction on shopgoodwill.com.

 

There is a Tapmatic 70x Reversible Tapping Attachment #10-5/8 Capacity up for auction on shopgoodwill.com
This might be useful for someone who has a larger lathe, I have a DB200 so this is to big for mine.
Looks like it could be a morse taper 2...
?
URL:
https://shopgoodwill.com/item/217491933
?
Richard
?
Re: Internal groove?

 

Ah, like this:
?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA_i5-kKv3s
?
(Yet another machine I never knew existed! :-)
Re: Internal groove?

 

Long-stroke metal shaper. I've got a 10" Lewis shaper, and that would be too short, I think. Close, anyway. Grabbed my milling column for the DB200, and it's 11-1/4", or about 286mm. The collar is maybe a couple inches, assuming you use the stock bed, or a piece thereof. Maybe an inch or so with commercial collars. Grooving the column itself would be more of a problem, if you? need the whole length grooved. There's a stepped shank on it that's a bit over 1-3/8" long. Don't currently have access to metric measuring tools...? About 15/16" diameter stepped down to about 3/4". Just shy of 24mm to 19 or 20mm.?

Clamping the post to cut the triangular groove in it would be interesting. Clamping the base should be pretty straight-forward.? I'd need to make a fixturing table for the shaper, too. Needed to do that? anyway.?

Most machine shops in the US don't have shapers anymore. They're way slow. They're still in production in Asia. It was said that you could make anything on a shaper but money. And they use single point tooling like lathe cutters, which can be pretty cheap. For those not familiar with metal shapers, this one isn't mine, but it is a Lewis. They were sold as a kit of castings from the 1920's to 1957ish. And every one of them is different.? And they do take up a fair amount of space.

Bill in OKC?

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)

Aphorisms to live by:
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes fcfrom bad judgement.?
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better.
Expect in one hand, expectorate in the other. See which one gets full first.



On Saturday, December 14, 2024 at 01:03:31 AM CST, Peter Brooks via groups.io <peter@...> wrote:


We’ve had some discussions lately touching on the marvellous triangular gib, which got me wondering - how would you machine a shaped groove internally in a tube (along it’s length)?

I’m thinking it would have to be a cutter mounted at 90 degrees, using some sort of pinion drive or similar, but I have absolutely no experience of heavier engineering, so have no idea !

17341904742028749264842174374067.jpg

Re: Internal groove?

 

Thanks, that is impressive. Definitely something sturdier than a Unimat!
Re: Internal groove?

 

I had seen more than once examples of making a keyway using a lathe like a shaper.? By traversing the carriage back and forth manually.

Found this video showing exactly that.



Charles E. "Chuck" Kinzer


On Saturday, December 14, 2024 at 02:16:15 AM PST, Peter Brooks via groups.io <peter@...> wrote:


Thanks Richard, and for the link.
?
The page on ‘Involute Broaches’ shows some tooling of triangular section, looks like that is likely.
?
Back and forth I guess, with a constant downward pressure. Which led me to look at ‘broaching machines’.
?
You learn something everyday. ‘Life long learning’, as they say.
Re: Internal groove?

 

Thanks Richard, and for the link.
?
The page on ‘Involute Broaches’ shows some tooling of triangular section, looks like that is likely.
?
Back and forth I guess, with a constant downward pressure. Which led me to look at ‘broaching machines’.
?
You learn something everyday. ‘Life long learning’, as they say.
Re: Internal groove?

 

I would think a custom spline broach would do the job.
They can be ordered in standard or custom shapes, but are not cheap.
Spline broaches can be made to order in many complex shapes.
Spline broaches are used to make flutes inside faucet handles, fluted drive shaft couplers, internal gears, etc.
Spiral spline broaches are used to create rifling in gun barrels.
?
For more info...
Google spline broach.
?
See:
https://broachingmach.com/spline-broaching-the-complete-guide/
?
Richard
Internal groove?

 

We’ve had some discussions lately touching on the marvellous triangular gib, which got me wondering - how would you machine a shaped groove internally in a tube (along it’s length)?

I’m thinking it would have to be a cutter mounted at 90 degrees, using some sort of pinion drive or similar, but I have absolutely no experience of heavier engineering, so have no idea !
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