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MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle
Looking to do an install on my ATV and/or Motorcycle. While the unit itself is going to be in a waterproof location, I'm looking for cabling thru to the battery which will be exposed to water. I'm not having much luck with finding waterproof mini-din 6 connectors. Ideally, I have the MTT4BT's Mini Din 6 cable routes to a central location where i can split off to power, and Serial cable to the GPS. |
Ha, yeah, arguably the mini DIN 6 was the worst choice for a device intended to go mobile.
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I've had good results putting the unit in a good Tupperware container. I zip tie the mini DIN cable to the TT box. Consider foam etc to pack the TT, and how to grommet the cables going out of the plastic box. Cliff K6CLS CM87 On September 16, 2021 3:29:51 PM PDT, toy4trax@... wrote:
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Couldn't disagree more! The worse connecter ever designed was not really a connector at all - automotive cigarette lighter. To this day, teh automotive industry uses the HUGE circular (inefficient) plug for powering all kinds of devices.? Lots of devices using the DB9 (actually DE9 - TT4 included), but that isn't waterproof either. That said, there aren't many waterproof connectors designed for computers (in house devices).? Your best bet is to remove the mini-DIN and replace it with something "in-line".? I always liked the round AMP connectors.? They make a good variety with panel mount, or about any combination, even with different sized pins.? Harder to find now. Uxcell makes a very similar connector: . Robert Giuliano
On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 09:44:42 PM EDT, Cliff Sojourner <cls@...> wrote:
Ha, yeah, arguably the mini DIN 6 was the worst choice for a device intended to go mobile. I've had good results putting the unit in a good Tupperware container. I zip tie the mini DIN cable to the TT box. Consider foam etc to pack the TT, and how to grommet the cables going out of the plastic box. Cliff K6CLS CM87 On September 16, 2021 3:29:51 PM PDT, toy4trax@... wrote:
|
Okay, It's a little early here in California, but I am a little unclear on the install concept. Is the plan to use the non-waterproof Byonics cable's mini-din connector? outside the waterproof ( There is no such thing of course) enclosure? So the general idea is that you want a waterproof chassis mount din on the box, with the also-not-waterproof DB-9 connector and not-waterproof-at-all Anderson PowerPole connectors also outside the enclosure??
Any chance the GPS? would have a view of the sky if left inside the enclosure? This would mean that you would only need to bring DC power and and the RF out of the box through waterproof connectors. The GPS will generally provide good position reports even in really horrible locations. I frequently test them on the floor boards of my car. They just take a little longer to acquire a valid position after power-up. The trunk of a car is not a good place, but I have even installed these under dashboards with good results.?
Mini-DIN's are not ideal for mobile installations, although they are however used in car audio and other electronic gear all the time. Their chief fault is that they are not capable of handling a great number of operation-cycles ( Plug-unplug-repeat) Their spring tension will fatigue with a lot of cycles and they get loose and occasionally intermittent. Using Zip ties to hold them in place often creates an off-axis stress that prematurely fatigues the springiness of the interference fit.?
The main problem I see in motorcycle and other light vehicle installations comes from the problems associated with compromise antennas. The MTT4BT will tolerate a lot of "badness" ( There is more to RF antenna badness than just SWR!) with compromise antennas. Rubber duck antennas ( Which any RF engineer and scientist will tell you are the work of Satan) will just not work at all, and will probably smoke your MTT4BT's power amp or worse. The higher power MTT4BT-40 internally weighs a couple ounces. The Mass of a motorcycle will not provide enough of a counterpoise to load the antenna unless you really go "Whole Hog" ( See what I did there with the Harley allusion"? ) and weld a tab onto your chassis/frame/fuselage for a "real" mobile antenna, optimally, a 5/8ths wave whip. If you remove that whip with the device transmitting, dark things may happen. You can of course, turn the RF power down in either flavor of MTT4BT's to accommodate antennas that are less than optimal.?
If you opt to install the higher power MTT4BT-40 on a motorcycle with anything short of a serious mobile antenna, I suggest you also leave room on your bike for a fire extinguisher...
73,
Allen AF6OF -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Giuliano via groups.io <kb8rco@...> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Sent: Thu, Sep 16, 2021 7:35 pm Subject: Re: [TinyTrak] MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle Couldn't disagree more!
The worse connecter ever designed was not really a connector at all - automotive cigarette lighter.
To this day, teh automotive industry uses the HUGE circular (inefficient) plug for powering all kinds of devices.? Lots of devices using the DB9 (actually DE9 - TT4 included), but that isn't waterproof either.
That said, there aren't many waterproof connectors designed for computers (in house devices).? Your best bet is to remove the mini-DIN and replace it with something "in-line".? I always liked the round AMP connectors.? They make a good variety with panel mount, or about any combination, even with different sized pins.? Harder to find now.
Uxcell makes a very similar connector: .
Robert Giuliano
KB8RCO
On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 09:44:42 PM EDT, Cliff Sojourner <cls@...> wrote:
Ha, yeah, arguably the mini DIN 6 was the worst choice for a device intended to go mobile.
I've had good results putting the unit in a good Tupperware container. I zip tie the mini DIN cable to the TT box. Consider foam etc to pack the TT, and how to grommet the cables going out of the plastic box. Cliff K6CLS CM87 On September 16, 2021 3:29:51 PM PDT, toy4trax@... wrote:
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On my bicycle I have a steel plate behind the seat (or a gadget bag) and us that as the ground plane for a 1/4 wave vertical.? Analyzer showed? about 1.2:1.? I ran my MTT4B (pre-BT) that way for about 2 summers.? Reminds me, I need to get back to riding! I agree on the connectors.? Even if you change the 6-pin miniDIN for something "waterproof", the case is not waterproof.? So where ever you put the case, you can put the GPS (if it has a sky view!).? Then the only connection to worry about is power.? Lots of 2-pin, waterproof connectors to choose from!? You can leave the PowerPole connector in with the case and GPS.? Robert Giuliano
On Friday, September 17, 2021, 09:45:07 AM EDT, vhsproducts via groups.io <vhsproducts@...> wrote:
Okay, It's a little early here in California, but I am a little unclear on the install concept. Is the plan to use the non-waterproof Byonics cable's mini-din connector? outside the waterproof ( There is no such thing of course) enclosure? So the general idea is that you want a waterproof chassis mount din on the box, with the also-not-waterproof DB-9 connector and not-waterproof-at-all Anderson PowerPole connectors also outside the enclosure??
Any chance the GPS? would have a view of the sky if left inside the enclosure? This would mean that you would only need to bring DC power and and the RF out of the box through waterproof connectors. The GPS will generally provide good position reports even in really horrible locations. I frequently test them on the floor boards of my car. They just take a little longer to acquire a valid position after power-up. The trunk of a car is not a good place, but I have even installed these under dashboards with good results.?
Mini-DIN's are not ideal for mobile installations, although they are however used in car audio and other electronic gear all the time. Their chief fault is that they are not capable of handling a great number of operation-cycles ( Plug-unplug-repeat) Their spring tension will fatigue with a lot of cycles and they get loose and occasionally intermittent. Using Zip ties to hold them in place often creates an off-axis stress that prematurely fatigues the springiness of the interference fit.?
The main problem I see in motorcycle and other light vehicle installations comes from the problems associated with compromise antennas. The MTT4BT will tolerate a lot of "badness" ( There is more to RF antenna badness than just SWR!) with compromise antennas. Rubber duck antennas ( Which any RF engineer and scientist will tell you are the work of Satan) will just not work at all, and will probably smoke your MTT4BT's power amp or worse. The higher power MTT4BT-40 internally weighs a couple ounces. The Mass of a motorcycle will not provide enough of a counterpoise to load the antenna unless you really go "Whole Hog" ( See what I did there with the Harley allusion"? ) and weld a tab onto your chassis/frame/fuselage for a "real" mobile antenna, optimally, a 5/8ths wave whip. If you remove that whip with the device transmitting, dark things may happen. You can of course, turn the RF power down in either flavor of MTT4BT's to accommodate antennas that are less than optimal.?
If you opt to install the higher power MTT4BT-40 on a motorcycle with anything short of a serious mobile antenna, I suggest you also leave room on your bike for a fire extinguisher...
73,
Allen AF6OF -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Giuliano via groups.io <kb8rco@...> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Sent: Thu, Sep 16, 2021 7:35 pm Subject: Re: [TinyTrak] MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle Couldn't disagree more!
The worse connecter ever designed was not really a connector at all - automotive cigarette lighter.
To this day, teh automotive industry uses the HUGE circular (inefficient) plug for powering all kinds of devices.? Lots of devices using the DB9 (actually DE9 - TT4 included), but that isn't waterproof either.
That said, there aren't many waterproof connectors designed for computers (in house devices).? Your best bet is to remove the mini-DIN and replace it with something "in-line".? I always liked the round AMP connectors.? They make a good variety with panel mount, or about any combination, even with different sized pins.? Harder to find now.
Uxcell makes a very similar connector: .
Robert Giuliano
KB8RCO
On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 09:44:42 PM EDT, Cliff Sojourner <cls@...> wrote:
Ha, yeah, arguably the mini DIN 6 was the worst choice for a device intended to go mobile.
I've had good results putting the unit in a good Tupperware container. I zip tie the mini DIN cable to the TT box. Consider foam etc to pack the TT, and how to grommet the cables going out of the plastic box. Cliff K6CLS CM87 On September 16, 2021 3:29:51 PM PDT, toy4trax@... wrote:
|
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýAlan,All excellent points in the installation and hardware! Also agree that those compromise antennas radiate equally poorly in all directions! The choice of a 5/8's wave antenna as you point out would require a reasonable counterpoise which may be hard to attain on a motorcycle and may be directive as well as changes with riders or not.? Perhaps the choice of a 1/2 wave antenna would be better because it does not require a counterpoise.? These antennas are common in marine installations and vehicles with fiberglass bodies. YMMV, 73 Jon K1IMD On 9/17/2021 09:45, vhsproducts via
groups.io wrote:
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I want to see a tiny lightweight Balloon tracker on 144.39 that can be fit
to a ball cap or backpack and can run for 8 hours or more on a 9v battery. It also has a PTT manual beacon mode when in a good position. Otherwise it is a 10 minute beacon. Antenna is 19" wire that hangs down the back. Good for day hiking. bob On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 10:35 PM Rob Giuliano via groups.io <kb8rco@...> wrote:
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Its not really a problem to build a tiny APRS Transmitter that can fit in a hat. Even our little 15 mW Micro-Fox Transmitter can be reloaded with the APRS firmware, and as you might expect, 15 mW's is more than enough power for an HAB at altitude. In balloon transmitters, we tend to keep the GPS on, which improves accuracy and reacquisition if the GPS loses a good position. In terrestrial, battery powered operations, we cycle the GPS power on before a scheduled transmission to save power.
As a practical matter, we have found that power levels of much less than 2 Watts are nearly useless for terrestrial operation, since you pretty much have to have a packet received 5 X 5 with full receiver quieting to get good decodable signals ( The range just about doubles with the same power at 300 Baud, but who would hear it?)?
Our MT-2001 transmitter might fit the hat- need. Its a bit bigger than an MF-15, but trying to run a 2 Watt transmitter and a GPS with a 9 Volt "Transistor Radio Battery" is going to be tough. Perhaps 3 CR-123's might be enough for the job. Even our ten Watt MT-AIO ( Or 14 Watts if you operate it from 4 X 14500 LiPos) does not make all of our back-country hikers happy, even with exotic antennas, like the Smiley 5/8ths wave telescoping antenna, or the Abbree 48 inch long "tape measure" style antenna. ( The world needs more I-Gates!)?
73,
Allen AF6OF -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Bruninga <bruninga@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2021 12:32 pm Subject: Re: [TinyTrak] MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle I want to see a tiny lightweight Balloon tracker on 144.39 that can be fit
to a ball cap or backpack and can run for 8 hours or more on a 9v battery. It also has a PTT manual beacon mode when in a good position. Otherwise it is a 10 minute beacon.? Antenna is 19" wire that hangs down the back. Good for day hiking. bob On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 10:35 PM Rob Giuliano via groups.io <kb8rco=[email protected]> wrote: > > Couldn't disagree more! > The worse connecter ever designed was not really a connector at all - automotive cigarette lighter. > To this day, teh automotive industry uses the HUGE circular (inefficient) plug for powering all kinds of devices.? Lots of devices using the DB9 (actually DE9 - TT4 included), but that isn't waterproof either. > > That said, there aren't many waterproof connectors designed for computers (in house devices).? Your best bet is to remove the mini-DIN and replace it with something "in-line".? I always liked the round AMP connectors.? They make a good variety with panel mount, or about any combination, even with different sized pins.? Harder to find now. > > Uxcell makes a very similar connector: https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Female-Waterproof-Connector-Strips/dp/B00X77LQ3I/ref=sr_1_18?dchild=1&keywords=amp+6+pin+waterproof+connectors&qid=1631845117&sr=8-18. > > > > Robert Giuliano > KB8RCO > > > > On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 09:44:42 PM EDT, Cliff Sojourner <cls@...> wrote: > > > Ha, yeah, arguably the mini DIN 6 was the worst choice for a device intended to go mobile. > > I've had good results putting the unit in a good Tupperware container. I zip tie the mini DIN cable to the TT box. Consider foam etc to pack the TT, and how to grommet the cables going out of the plastic box. > > Cliff K6CLS CM87 > > On September 16, 2021 3:29:51 PM PDT, toy4trax@... wrote: > > Looking to do an install on my ATV and/or Motorcycle. While the unit itself is going to be in a waterproof location, I'm looking for cabling thru to the battery which will be exposed to water. I'm not having much luck with finding waterproof mini-din 6 connectors. > > Ideally, I have the MTT4BT's Mini Din 6 cable routes to a central location where i can split off to power, and Serial cable to the GPS. > > Thoughts? > > |
Agree,
I'm only targeting the hiker along a mountain trail where he has excellent altitude, nearby digis and can select when to TX from an ideal spot. GPS remains off until just before TX. So, yes, I guess the name would be a "mountain hiker tracker". Agree low power will not work in any other situation. In that sense, it is maybe not a hat-attached tracker, but a pull-it-out-and-PTT "reporting" device at only good spots. Pull it out (unpowered), and press ON button until green LED shows GPS fix, and then press PTT. If radio chip is XCVR, then skilled operator can hear and usually distinguish a "digipeated" copy of his packet. OR TX again until he does... Bob Bob On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 4:06 PM vhsproducts via groups.io <vhsproducts@...> wrote:
|
That UXcell looks like a very interesting connector for rotator and preamp power/control cables.? Wish the wires were heavier than #22.? I've been using 6 or 8-pole automotive trailer connectors; they are waterproof enough for my needs (deployable HF/VHF/satellite station).? A bit bulky for hiking but might work for the OPs application.
73 Steve KS1G |
Allen,
I'd have the MTT4BT in a pelican type case, similar to the AIO. If the AIO would have been transmit and receive, GSA, GSV, that would have been a good combo... but alas, no. Anyway, my goal was to take the GSA, GSV to/from my Garmin for GPS and display of the APRS waypoints. All this works on the bench. So, MTT4BT in pelican case, bulkhead connectors out to Power/data, antenna. Got the 8 watt so the ground-plane would not be an issue on an ATV/Moto(?). Maybe I'm wrong with this? |
Do you mean a 1/4 whip with four or more 45 degree radiators when you refer to a "Ground Plane" antenna? Or a quarter wave whip mounted to the bike's chassis?? 73, Allen AF6OF On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 6:57 PM <toy4trax@...> wrote: Allen, |
On 9/16/2021 5:29 PM, toy4trax@... wrote:
Looking to do an install on my ATV and/or Motorcycle. While the unit itself is going to be in a waterproof location, I'm looking for cabling thru to the battery which will be exposed to water. I'm not having much luck with finding waterproof mini-din 6 connectors.A LONG boring list of ideas and techniques follow (you've been warned!): I like the idea of a water-tight box in a central location to split off the various signals and power leads. I've used a former style of plastic Kodak 35mm film "cans" for the "box," the kind with the black plastic "can" and the grey plastic lid. I drilled multiple undersized holes for individual cables in the soft plastic lid, stuffed the unstripped cables through the holes, slipped pieces of unshrunk heatshrink tubing over the parts to be spliced, stripped and soldered the required connections, shrunk the tubing over the connections, pushed the bundles of connections together and either shrunk some much larger heatshrink over the whole bundle or tied the bundles together with waxed nylon lacing tape, pulled the slack out of the cables through the lid of the can, filled the lid with silicone rubber and after everything was set up, snapped the lid on the "can." But, in case that's not feasible for you, here are some other considerations that you may try... First of all, I'm not very familiar with the MTT4BT, but if by "mini-DIN 6" you're referring to the "mini" line of cylindrical DIN connectors commonly used in Europe (especially Germany) for primarily consumer AUDIO and/or video connections, I think "Coax-Seal" and black electrical tape could be your answer. I bought a Grundig portable 3-inch reel-to-reel audio tape recorder in the 1960s and also made some MIDI cables a couple of decades ago that used them, although in both cases it was the full-sized versions. I've also used the "mini" sized versions as well but can't recall where or when. The insulation covering most electrical cabling is completely water-tight if undamaged, so it is only between pieces of cabling joined together that's the problem where the original overall insulation is broken. First of all, if you can, make the connection somewhat rigid to minimize bending, and especially stretching or compression of the connection. Ordinary heat-shrink tubing and maybe some waxed nylon lacing tape can usually do that (there are web pages that describe how to tie lacing tape - It's very useful stuff -- you may give up nylon tie-wraps). Then cover the whole connection with electrical tape from overlapping the original cable insulation on all ends and overlapping each turn of the electrical tape with itself. The electrical tape is not for waterproofing, but just to make it easier to remove the next layer should that become necessary in the future. This next layer could be the Coax-Seal mentioned earlier (just because they call it "Coax-Seal" doesn't mean you can't use it for sealing other things than coax!). This is best done in a warm environment because you want the warmth of your hands and fingers to soften the Coax-Seal to let you form it into a smooth conformal seal and have it stick together. Just like the electrical tape, overlap the ends of the electrical tape with the Coax-Seal and the original cable insulation and each turn of the Coax-Seal with itself, and push it into the crevices so that it won't look much like "tape" any more, but just a smooth unbroken covering. This isn't a good solution if you need a way to frequently disconnect the connections, and the seal to a chassis-mounted receptacle may be unreliable, depending on the configuration of the receptacle and how well the receptacle itself is sealed against the chassis or box. If you do sometimes need to remove the whole mess to disconnect the various parts, just dig through the Coax-Seal until you reach the electrical tape, then unwind the electrical tape taking the Coax-Seal with it. The Coax-Seal will protect the electrical tape through the ages, and it should remain pretty fresh, pliable and easy to unwind. It shouldn't be nearly as tenacious as the Coax-Seal would be if applied directly to the cabling and connectors, especially the connectors. I understand there is a heat-shrink-able TAPE available now, but I haven't yet had a occasion to try it, and I have no idea how hard it is to remove. You should also consider the application of liberal amounts of silicone rubber sealant (Loctite Clear Household Silicone Adhesive/Sealant, P/N 30808 several years ago or Plasi-Dip [plastidip.com]). Be sure to allow these materials access to air so they can set up before sealing the air away with other materials. Plasti-Dip can be dipped or brushed on, in multiple coats, and provides a slightly cushiony but tough surface, BUT it comes in a large can like a beer can where the entire top comes off to allow dipping tool handles, but is impossible to tightly seal the can closed, so it'll likely be hardened the next time you want to use it. The snap-on thin plastic lid isn't even remotely air-tight and the beer can shape leaves a large volume of air in the container to dry out its contents. It's a good product packaged poorly, although I can't think of a better way. Multiple coatings are needed to provide substantial protection, and the stuff in the can will usually stay flowable and brushable long enough to coat a few things multiple times if done quickly, but you'll probably end up throwing most of the can's contents away. Too bad, otherwise it's good stuff. By the way, Plasti-Dip comes in several different fairly high-visibility colors, if that's of any interest. I bought the red color. It makes my pliers and wire-cutters easier to spot in my jumble of hand tools. It primarily made the ends of the elements of my PVC pipe & steel tape Yagi antennas easier to see and avoid poking myself and others in the eye. The electrical tape layer MAY be useful with these coatings as well. The silicone rubber brand & style mentioned above produces a more durable coating than the typical GE window & tub caulk that comes in caulking gun refills and produces a thick rubbery-soft coating, but it doesn't seem to be as capable of being applied as smoothly as the Plasti-Dip. Both may be useful in this kind of application: a first coating of the thin GE silicone to get into the cracks and crevices followed by a coating of the Loctite stuff or Plasti-Dip on the outside for durability (and maybe all of it preceded by a layer of electrical tape for removeability). I'm also unsure of the "contact" compatibility of these various products. YMMV. It might be that you simply can't "paint" one over the other. You might have to spend a few dollars and try it yourself. If you do, please report back the results. There's also another product from the PlastiDip people called Liquid Tape that might be worth a try. I don't know anything about it. THE END! Barry N4MSJ |
Please do not seal the plastic MTT4BT enclosure with any sticky goop. These are very low mass transceivers ( The actual PCB's weigh a few ounces) with relatively high power amplifiers on board ( 10-40 Watts) and the PCB is the only heat sink. ( Keep in mind that these transmit only short packets with relatively long transmission intervals, so their duty cycle is very low) The PCB's need to "Breath". If you seal it off, your board might get too warm, and your temperature telemetry readings would be confusing. There are more "holes" in the case than just the Mini-DIN connector ( You Deutchlanders will recognize this nomenclature to be the same connector we occasionally refer to as the PS/2 keyboard connector) To call the Mini-DIN, DB-9, or PowerPole connectors on the MTT4BT's power/serial cable "Waterproof" would reach levels of sunshine-filled optimism that I am not physically, mentally, or philosophically capable of reaching. The cable and MTT4BT enclosure were designed with mobile installation in nice dry vehicles.
73,
Allen AF6OF -----Original Message-----
From: Barry L. Lankford <BarryL@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Sun, Sep 19, 2021 2:58 am Subject: Re: [TinyTrak] MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle On 9/16/2021 5:29 PM, toy4trax@... wrote:
> Looking to do an install on my ATV and/or Motorcycle. While the unit > itself is going to be in a waterproof location, I'm looking for cabling > thru to the battery which will be exposed to water. I'm not having much > luck with finding waterproof mini-din 6 connectors. > > Ideally, I have the MTT4BT's Mini Din 6 cable routes to a central > location where i can split off to power, and Serial cable to the GPS. > > Thoughts? > A LONG boring list of ideas and techniques follow (you've been warned!): I like the idea of a water-tight box in a central location to split off the various signals and power leads.? I've used a former style of plastic Kodak 35mm film "cans" for the "box," the kind with the black plastic "can" and the grey plastic lid.? I drilled multiple undersized holes for individual cables in the soft plastic lid, stuffed the unstripped cables through the holes, slipped pieces of unshrunk heatshrink tubing over the parts to be spliced, stripped and soldered the required connections, shrunk the tubing over the connections, pushed the bundles of connections together and either shrunk some much larger heatshrink over the whole bundle or tied the bundles together with waxed nylon lacing tape, pulled the slack out of the cables through the lid of the can, filled the lid with silicone rubber and after everything was set up, snapped the lid on the "can."? But, in case that's not feasible for you, here are some other considerations that you may try... First of all, I'm not very familiar with the MTT4BT, but if by "mini-DIN 6" you're referring to the "mini" line of cylindrical DIN connectors commonly used in Europe (especially Germany) for primarily consumer AUDIO and/or video connections, I think "Coax-Seal" and black electrical tape could be your answer.? I bought a Grundig portable 3-inch reel-to-reel audio tape recorder in the 1960s and also made some MIDI cables a couple of decades ago that used them, although in both cases it was the full-sized versions.? I've also used the "mini" sized versions as well but can't recall where or when. The insulation covering most electrical cabling is completely water-tight if undamaged, so it is only between pieces of cabling joined together that's the problem where the original overall insulation is broken.? First of all, if you can, make the connection somewhat rigid to minimize bending, and especially stretching or compression of the connection.? Ordinary heat-shrink tubing and maybe some waxed nylon lacing tape can usually do that (there are web pages that describe how to tie lacing tape - It's very useful stuff -- you may give up nylon tie-wraps).? Then cover the whole connection with electrical tape from overlapping the original cable insulation on all ends and overlapping each turn of the electrical tape with itself. The electrical tape is not for waterproofing, but just to make it easier to remove the next layer should that become necessary in the future. This next layer could be the Coax-Seal mentioned earlier (just because they call it "Coax-Seal" doesn't mean you can't use it for sealing other things than coax!).? This is best done in a warm environment because you want the warmth of your hands and fingers to soften the Coax-Seal to let you form it into a smooth conformal seal and have it stick together. Just like the electrical tape, overlap the ends of the electrical tape with the Coax-Seal and the original cable insulation and each turn of the Coax-Seal with itself, and push it into the crevices so that it won't look much like "tape" any more, but just a smooth unbroken covering. This isn't a good solution if you need a way to frequently disconnect the connections, and the seal to a chassis-mounted receptacle may be unreliable, depending on the configuration of the receptacle and how well the receptacle itself is sealed against the chassis or box. If you do sometimes need to remove the whole mess to disconnect the various parts, just dig through the Coax-Seal until you reach the electrical tape, then unwind the electrical tape taking the Coax-Seal with it.? The Coax-Seal will protect the electrical tape through the ages, and it should remain pretty fresh, pliable and easy to unwind.? It shouldn't be nearly as tenacious as the Coax-Seal would be if applied directly to the cabling and connectors, especially the connectors. I understand there is a heat-shrink-able TAPE available now, but I haven't yet had a occasion to try it, and I have no idea how hard it is to remove. You should also consider the application of liberal amounts of silicone rubber sealant (Loctite Clear Household Silicone Adhesive/Sealant, P/N 30808 several years ago or Plasi-Dip [plastidip.com]).? Be sure to allow these materials access to air so they can set up before sealing the air away with other materials.? Plasti-Dip can be dipped or brushed on, in multiple coats, and provides a slightly cushiony but tough surface, BUT it comes in a large can like a beer can where the entire top comes off to allow dipping tool handles, but is impossible to tightly seal the can closed, so it'll likely be hardened the next time you want to use it. The snap-on thin plastic lid isn't even remotely air-tight and the beer can shape leaves a large volume of air in the container to dry out its contents. It's a good product packaged poorly, although I can't think of a better way.? Multiple coatings are needed to provide substantial protection, and the stuff in the can will usually stay flowable and brushable long enough to coat a few things multiple times if done quickly, but you'll probably end up throwing most of the can's contents away.? Too bad, otherwise it's good stuff.? By the way, Plasti-Dip comes in several different fairly high-visibility colors, if that's of any interest.? I bought the red color.? It makes my pliers and wire-cutters easier to spot in my jumble of hand tools.? It primarily made the ends of the elements of my PVC pipe & steel tape Yagi antennas easier to see and avoid poking myself and others in the eye. The electrical tape layer MAY be useful with these coatings as well. The silicone rubber brand & style mentioned above produces a more durable coating than the typical GE window & tub caulk that comes in caulking gun refills and produces a thick rubbery-soft coating, but it doesn't seem to be as capable of being applied as smoothly as the Plasti-Dip.? Both may be useful in this kind of application: a first coating of the thin GE silicone to get into the cracks and crevices followed by a coating of the Loctite stuff or Plasti-Dip on the outside for durability (and maybe all of it preceded by a layer of electrical tape for removeability).? I'm also unsure of the "contact" compatibility of these various products. YMMV. It might be that you simply can't "paint" one over the other.? You might have to spend a few dollars and try it yourself.? If you do, please report back the results. There's also another product from the PlastiDip people called Liquid Tape that might be worth a try.? I don't know anything about it. THE END! Barry N4MSJ |
Bob,
I would be happy to send you a transmitter to field test on the trail. The MT-1000 has 1.7? Watts out, runs of 3 X AA batteries, and weighs about 6 ounces with (3 X AA? Alkaline)? batteries. "Transistor radio" style plastic case intended for HAB use, not really for backpackers. It would allow you to test the efficacy of a nominal 2-Watt transmitter.
Just for comparison, the new MT-AIO has a power out of 14 Watts, weighs 10 ounces with batteries ( 3 X 14500 LiPo rechargeable) and is in a water-resistant Flambeau, "Black Ribbon" o-ring sealed case. Admittedly, neither of these will fit in a hat, but the power levels could provide proof of concept. Note that Pelican, our former case supplier, eliminated the case we have used for years from their product lineup.?
73,
Allen AF6OF -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Bruninga <bruninga@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2021 2:15 pm Subject: Re: [TinyTrak] MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle Agree,
I'm only targeting the hiker along a mountain trail where he has excellent altitude, nearby digis and can select when to TX from an ideal spot.? GPS remains off until just before TX. So, yes, I guess the name would be a "mountain hiker tracker". Agree low power will not work in any other situation. In that sense, it is maybe not a hat-attached tracker, but a pull-it-out-and-PTT "reporting" device at only good spots. Pull it out (unpowered), and press ON button until green LED shows GPS fix, and then press PTT.? If radio chip is XCVR, then skilled operator can hear and usually distinguish a "digipeated" copy of his packet.? OR TX again until he does... Bob Bob On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 4:06 PM vhsproducts via groups.io <vhsproducts=[email protected]> wrote: > > Its not really a problem to build a tiny APRS Transmitter that can fit in a hat. Even our little 15 mW Micro-Fox Transmitter can be reloaded with the APRS firmware, and as you might expect, 15 mW's is more than enough power for an HAB at altitude. In balloon transmitters, we tend to keep the GPS on, which improves accuracy and reacquisition if the GPS loses a good position. In terrestrial, battery powered operations, we cycle the GPS power on before a scheduled transmission to save power. > > As a practical matter, we have found that power levels of much less than 2 Watts are nearly useless for terrestrial operation, since you pretty much have to have a packet received 5 X 5 with full receiver quieting to get good decodable signals ( The range just about doubles with the same power at 300 Baud, but who would hear it?) > > Our MT-2001 transmitter might fit the hat- need. Its a bit bigger than an MF-15, but trying to run a 2 Watt transmitter and a GPS with a 9 Volt "Transistor Radio Battery" is going to be tough. Perhaps 3 CR-123's might be enough for the job. Even our ten Watt MT-AIO ( Or 14 Watts if you operate it from 4 X 14500 LiPos) does not make all of our back-country hikers happy, even with exotic antennas, like the Smiley 5/8ths wave telescoping antenna, or the Abbree 48 inch long "tape measure" style antenna. ( The world needs more I-Gates!) > > 73, > > Allen AF6OF > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Bruninga <bruninga@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2021 12:32 pm > Subject: Re: [TinyTrak] MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle > > I want to see a tiny lightweight Balloon tracker on 144.39 that can be fit > to a ball cap or backpack and can run for 8 hours or more on a 9v battery. > It also has a PTT manual beacon mode when in a good position. > Otherwise it is a 10 minute beacon.? Antenna is 19" wire that hangs > down the back. > > Good for day hiking. > > bob > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 10:35 PM Rob Giuliano via groups.io > <kb8rco=[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Couldn't disagree more! > > The worse connecter ever designed was not really a connector at all - automotive cigarette lighter. > > To this day, teh automotive industry uses the HUGE circular (inefficient) plug for powering all kinds of devices.? Lots of devices using the DB9 (actually DE9 - TT4 included), but that isn't waterproof either. > > > > That said, there aren't many waterproof connectors designed for computers (in house devices).? Your best bet is to remove the mini-DIN and replace it with something "in-line".? I always liked the round AMP connectors.? They make a good variety with panel mount, or about any combination, even with different sized pins.? Harder to find now. > > > > Uxcell makes a very similar connector: https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Female-Waterproof-Connector-Strips/dp/B00X77LQ3I/ref=sr_1_18?dchild=1&keywords=amp+6+pin+waterproof+connectors&qid=1631845117&sr=8-18. > > > > > > > > Robert Giuliano > > KB8RCO > > > > > > > > On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 09:44:42 PM EDT, Cliff Sojourner <cls@...> wrote: > > > > > > Ha, yeah, arguably the mini DIN 6 was the worst choice for a device intended to go mobile. > > > > I've had good results putting the unit in a good Tupperware container. I zip tie the mini DIN cable to the TT box. Consider foam etc to pack the TT, and how to grommet the cables going out of the plastic box. > > > > Cliff K6CLS CM87 > > > > On September 16, 2021 3:29:51 PM PDT, toy4trax@... wrote: > > > > Looking to do an install on my ATV and/or Motorcycle. While the unit itself is going to be in a waterproof location, I'm looking for cabling thru to the battery which will be exposed to water. I'm not having much luck with finding waterproof mini-din 6 connectors. > > > > Ideally, I have the MTT4BT's Mini Din 6 cable routes to a central location where i can split off to power, and Serial cable to the GPS. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > > > > > > > |
Allen,
I don't know if your statement was intended to dispute parts of my post or just to add an additional suggestion, but to clarify, I NEVER SUGGESTED THAT ANYONE SEAL THE MTT4BT CASE. And, unless a connector is designed and manufactured to be sealed with gaskets, o-rings or similar, "sticky goop," as you call it, is almost always the only way to seal most water out, and, to address the "stickyness" issue, I also specifically provided suggestions of how to make it easier to get that "sticky goop" off of the connectors and wiring later. I think many people don't know about the "electrical tape layer" trick with Coax-Seal. I didn't know about it the first time I used Coax-Seal in a C-Band antenna installation I did for myself in the early 1980s. Also, "somewhat splash-resistant" installation is usually the best one can hope for in the consumer/ham world. If I remember correctly, the OP said the MTT4BT was in a dry place, so why would you think I'd suggest sealing it with "sticky goop" (if that was indeed your purpose). I was addressing the considerations one should keep in mind when attempting to make connectors and splices water-resistant, IN A GENERIC WAY. By the way, if the MTT4BT was NOT in a dry place, would overheating it be any worse than allowing the ingress of water, especially water that would likely be contaminated and possibly conductive (seawater maybe)? Most electronic components can withstand a surprising degree of overheating with little harm, and many ICs, including micro-controllers and voltage/power regulators for example, have circuitry included to self-protect by throttling the clock rate or shutting down entirely when the junction temperatures get dangerously high. I've spent most of my career designing electronic systems for military and space applications, and many of the cases in which most such equipment is enclosed, is sealed, either entirely or at least ventilated through hydrophobic membranes and also have desiccant chambers with visible moisture indicators, yet there ARE ways of getting heat out of otherwise sealed containers, very elaborate ways like you wouldn't believe. Of course such extreme measures just aren't practical in consumer or most ham gear. As you said, it's a low duty cycle device (at least for the transmitter part of it), it's a relatively inexpensive device, and hams are supposed to recognize risky usage and make appropriate judgement. "Engineering is the art of design with intelligent compromise." My post wasn't intended to identify WHAT needed to be sealed, it was simply intended to suggest HOW to seal them. The OP had his own ideas of what was needed. I suggested techniques for sealing only those water-sensitive places where you absolutely need to keep water out and where water would be present or likely to be present, but I didn't even try to define where those places might be, other than to mention that I liked the idea of a container in the middle to split out wiring going to different places, mostly so I could suggest how I'd once or twice dealt with that option, i.e., what I'd used as the container and how I'd used it. I didn't intend to insult anyone's intelligence by attempting to provide solutions for absolutely every possible situation -- after all we're ham radio operators and we are expected to have some technical capabilities. You don't seal things that aren't exposed to water or other harmful contaminants, and you don't put unsealed things in places where they will likely be exposed to water if water will harm them. I suggested ways to seal things that the OP already stated that he thought needed sealing. I left the decision to seal or not to seal to him, and I already mentioned that I wasn't entirely familiar with the MTT4BT itself. I wasn't certain I knew where the "DIN connector" was used, but I thought it was likely to be part of the MTT4BT. I have a number of TT4s; no built-in transmitter, very little heat -- I was a beta tester for the TT4, and I've bought a couple over the years, including the display and keyboard adapter (which, coincidentally, has a mini-DIN receptacle of its own for a PS/2 keyboard). I also have the display module, the Bluetooth interface and have built several interconnecting cable assemblies for GPS and computers, not that any of that has any bearing on answering the OPs questions. I even built an adapter to connect the TT4 to my old TRGpro PDA (a Palm IIIa clone with additional capabilities) for display and control in the field (balloon chasing). I thought I'd been clear about what a mini-DIN is; I only mentioned them to be sure the readers also knew how I was using the term. I don't typically name connectors by instances in which examples of that connector is used. If I did, it might also be the "SuperVHS video connector" or the "High-8 (or Hi-8) video connector" or the "PS/2 Mouse connector" (not just the PS/2 Keyboard connector), or many others which most people have never heard of (the full-sized 5-pin variety has been used for MIDI [Musical Instrument Digital Interface] cables for several decades. DIN is a German Standards Organization, and believe me, these audio and video connectors we're talking about right now are by no means the only connectors for which DIN maintains the manufacturing, interoperability and usage standards. DIN maintains standards for all kinds of items including piping, tubing, fittings and all kinds of industrial items, not just electrical or electronic. Should we call ALL of them "DIN connectors?" Even if you limit the conversation to just the electrical or electronic items, there are DIN rails and DIN card racks with DIN card cages and DIN backplanes that have DIN connectors on them. In this case, these DIN connectors are multi-pin connectors to plug PCB cards into (the cards have mating DIN connectors on them). Those DIN connectors have little relationship to other totally different or incompatible electrical connectors that can all rightfully be called "DIN connectors." That term, "DIN connector" usage is extremely ambiguous. Frankly, I've forgotten what the non-ambiguous name should be, if there ever was one, for the connectors we've been discussing. There are other DIN connectors more similar to this particular kind of DIN connector, but still not compatible, and I thought all these things needed to be clarified in this instance, especially as I am only "somewhat familiar" with the MTT4BT. BTW, the DIN organization has been around for about a century, I believe, although I didn't encounter it until the early 1960s. Barry N4MSJ PS, I think the word you were looking for was "breathe" (the verb, ending with an "e"), not "breath" (the noun) -- Now why do I feel like Dan Quayle? No, wait, I don't feel ANYTHING like Dan Quayle; I feel like I want a bowl full of potato chips. Sorry, I just couldn't resist! On 9/19/2021 9:48 AM, vhsproducts@... wrote: Please do not seal the plastic MTT4BT enclosure with any sticky goop. These are very low mass transceivers ( The actual PCB's weigh a few ounces) with relatively high power amplifiers on board ( 10-40 Watts) and the PCB is the only heat sink. ( Keep in mind that these transmit only short packets with relatively long transmission intervals, so their duty cycle is very low) The PCB's need to "Breath". If you seal it off, your board might get too warm, and your temperature telemetry readings would be confusing. There are more "holes" in the case than just the Mini-DIN connector ( You Deutchlanders will recognize this nomenclature to be the same connector we occasionally refer to as the PS/2 keyboard connector) To call the Mini-DIN, DB-9, or PowerPole connectors on the MTT4BT's power/serial cable "Waterproof" would reach levels of sunshine-filled optimism that I am not physically, mentally, or philosophically capable of reaching. The cable and MTT4BT enclosure were designed with mobile installation in nice dry vehicles.[snipped] |
I don't know if your statement was intended to dispute parts of my post Only the latter my friend, not the former! Glue on the Mini-DIN connector ( Or PS/2 connector to avoid the vagaries of DIN nomenclature) especially epoxy glue to "reinforce" the 6 pin power/serial connector, is a bit of a bugaboo of mine. It makes replacing the connector almost impossible, especially when the epoxy also glues the case together!? ?Its not the easiest connector to remove from a PCB to begin with, and it is best done by cutting the connector to pieces and pulling each pin individually. That being said, its far better to replace a "sprung" connector than trying to fix the problem with adhesives. I did see a nice little 3d printed clamp that someone made to clamp over the connector and provide two flanges to screw to the case. I wish I knew who was making hose! I would make them standard equipment.
No worries, I did not mean to imply any electronic heresy on your part!
73,
Allen
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry L. Lankford <BarryL@...> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Sent: Sun, Sep 19, 2021 10:17 pm Subject: Re: [TinyTrak] MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle Allen,
I don't know if your statement was intended to dispute parts of my post or just to add an additional suggestion, but to clarify, I NEVER SUGGESTED THAT ANYONE SEAL THE MTT4BT CASE.? And, unless a connector is designed and manufactured to be sealed with gaskets, o-rings or similar, "sticky goop," as you call it, is almost always the only way to seal most water out, and, to address the "stickyness" issue, I also specifically provided suggestions of how to make it easier to get that "sticky goop" off of the connectors and wiring later.? I think many people don't know about the "electrical tape layer" trick with Coax-Seal.? I didn't know about it the first time I used Coax-Seal in a C-Band antenna installation I did for myself in the early 1980s.? Also, "somewhat splash-resistant" installation is usually the best one can hope for in the consumer/ham world. If I remember correctly, the OP said the MTT4BT was in a dry place, so why would you think I'd suggest sealing it with "sticky goop" (if that was indeed your purpose).? I was addressing the considerations one should keep in mind when attempting to make connectors and splices water-resistant, IN A GENERIC WAY.? By the way, if the MTT4BT was NOT in a dry place, would overheating it be any worse than allowing the ingress of water, especially water that would likely be contaminated and possibly conductive (seawater maybe)?? Most electronic components can withstand a surprising degree of overheating with little harm, and many ICs, including micro-controllers and voltage/power regulators for example, have circuitry included to self-protect by throttling the clock rate or shutting down entirely when the junction temperatures get dangerously high.? I've spent most of my career designing electronic systems for military and space applications, and many of the cases in which most such equipment is enclosed, is sealed, either entirely or at least ventilated through hydrophobic membranes and also have desiccant chambers with visible moisture indicators, yet there ARE ways of getting heat out of otherwise sealed containers, very elaborate ways like you wouldn't believe.? Of course such extreme measures just aren't practical in consumer or most ham gear.? As you said, it's a low duty cycle device (at least for the transmitter part of it), it's a relatively inexpensive device, and hams are supposed to recognize risky usage and make appropriate judgement. "Engineering is the art of design with intelligent compromise." My post wasn't intended to identify WHAT needed to be sealed, it was simply intended to suggest HOW to seal them.? The OP had his own ideas of what was needed.? I suggested techniques for sealing only those water-sensitive places where you absolutely need to keep water out and where water would be present or likely to be present, but I didn't even try to define where those places might be, other than to mention that I liked the idea of a container in the middle to split out wiring going to different places, mostly so I could suggest how I'd once or twice dealt with that option, i.e., what I'd used as the container and how I'd used it.? I didn't intend to insult anyone's intelligence by attempting to provide solutions for absolutely every possible situation -- after all we're ham radio operators and we are expected to have some technical capabilities.? You don't seal things that aren't exposed to water or other harmful contaminants, and you don't put unsealed things in places where they will likely be exposed to water if water will harm them. I suggested ways to seal things that the OP already stated that he thought needed sealing.? I left the decision to seal or not to seal to him, and I already mentioned that I wasn't entirely familiar with the MTT4BT itself.? I wasn't certain I knew where the "DIN connector" was used, but I thought it was likely to be part of the MTT4BT.? I have a number of TT4s; no built-in transmitter, very little heat -- I was a beta tester for the TT4, and I've bought a couple over the years, including the display and keyboard adapter (which, coincidentally, has a mini-DIN receptacle of its own for a PS/2 keyboard).? I also have the display module, the Bluetooth interface and have built several interconnecting cable assemblies for GPS and computers, not that any of that has any bearing on answering the OPs questions.? I even built an adapter to connect the TT4 to my old TRGpro PDA (a Palm IIIa clone with additional capabilities) for display and control in the field (balloon chasing). I thought I'd been clear about what a mini-DIN is; I only mentioned them to be sure the readers also knew how I was using the term.? I don't typically name connectors by instances in which examples of that connector is used.? If I did, it might also be the "SuperVHS video connector" or the "High-8 (or Hi-8) video connector" or the "PS/2 Mouse connector" (not just the PS/2 Keyboard connector), or many others which most people have never heard of (the full-sized 5-pin variety has been used for MIDI [Musical Instrument Digital Interface] cables for several decades. DIN is a German Standards Organization, and believe me, these audio and video connectors we're talking about right now are by no means the only connectors for which DIN maintains the manufacturing, interoperability and usage standards.? DIN maintains standards for all kinds of items including piping, tubing, fittings and all kinds of industrial items, not just electrical or electronic.? Should we call ALL of them "DIN connectors?"? Even if you limit the conversation to just the electrical or electronic items, there are DIN rails and DIN card racks with DIN card cages and DIN backplanes that have DIN connectors on them.? In this case, these DIN connectors are multi-pin connectors to plug PCB cards into (the cards have mating DIN connectors on them).? Those DIN connectors have little relationship to other totally different or incompatible electrical connectors that can all rightfully be called "DIN connectors."? That term, "DIN connector" usage is extremely ambiguous.? Frankly, I've forgotten what the non-ambiguous name should be, if there ever was one, for the connectors we've been discussing. There are other DIN connectors more similar to this particular kind of DIN connector, but still not compatible, and I thought all these things needed to be clarified in this instance, especially as I am only "somewhat familiar" with the MTT4BT.? BTW, the DIN organization has been around for about a century, I believe, although I didn't encounter it until the early 1960s. Barry N4MSJ PS, I think the word you were looking for was "breathe" (the verb, ending with an "e"), not "breath" (the noun) -- Now why do I feel like Dan Quayle?? No, wait, I don't feel ANYTHING like Dan Quayle; I feel like I want a bowl full of potato chips.? Sorry, I just couldn't resist! On 9/19/2021 9:48 AM, vhsproducts@... wrote: > Please do not seal the plastic MTT4BT enclosure with any sticky goop. > These are very low mass transceivers ( The actual PCB's weigh a few > ounces) with relatively high power amplifiers on board ( 10-40 Watts) > and the PCB is the only heat sink. ( Keep in mind that these transmit > only short packets with relatively long transmission intervals, so their > duty cycle is very low) The PCB's need to "Breath". If you seal it off, > your board might get too warm, and your temperature telemetry readings > would be confusing. There are more "holes" in the case than just the > Mini-DIN connector ( You Deutchlanders will recognize this nomenclature > to be the same connector we occasionally refer to as the PS/2 keyboard > connector) To call the Mini-DIN, DB-9, or PowerPole connectors on the > MTT4BT's power/serial cable "Waterproof" would reach levels of > sunshine-filled optimism that I am not physically, mentally, or > philosophically capable of reaching. The cable and MTT4BT enclosure were > designed with mobile installation in nice dry vehicles. > > 73, > > Allen AF6OF > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Barry L. Lankford <BarryL@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sun, Sep 19, 2021 2:58 am > Subject: Re: [TinyTrak] MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle > > On 9/16/2021 5:29 PM, toy4trax@... <mailto:toy4trax@...> wrote: >? > Looking to do an install on my ATV and/or Motorcycle. While the unit >? > itself is going to be in a waterproof location, I'm looking for cabling >? > thru to the battery which will be exposed to water. I'm not having much >? > luck with finding waterproof mini-din 6 connectors. >? > >? > Ideally, I have the MTT4BT's Mini Din 6 cable routes to a central >? > location where i can split off to power, and Serial cable to the GPS. >? > >? > Thoughts? >? > > A LONG boring list of ideas and techniques follow (you've been warned!): > > I like the idea of a water-tight box in a central location to split off > the various signals and power leads.? I've used a former style of > plastic Kodak 35mm film "cans" for the "box," the kind with the black > plastic "can" and the grey plastic lid.? I drilled multiple undersized > holes for individual cables in the soft plastic lid, stuffed the > unstripped cables through the holes, slipped pieces of unshrunk > heatshrink tubing over the parts to be spliced, stripped and soldered > the required connections, shrunk the tubing over the connections, pushed > the bundles of connections together and either shrunk... [snipped] |