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Re: Where to buy in Europe ?
Hi Allen, A friend of mine wants to jump into APRS, I have 3 of them but would like to keep them as a backup. However it looks like I'll have to sell one to my friend... |
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Re: APRS tracking of runners
Grant,
I have never heard of anyone tracking all the runners in a race either. This is not to say it can't be done, even with the blunt instrument of APRS. Time slotting, multiple frequencies, etc.,? can be used to handle a higher volume than any race is likely to see. We looked at a similar approach for bicycle races and it was very doable. You would not see 100% throughput, but you don't really need that level of data to track people, who are buy, and buy, pretty slow moving targets!?
I suspect that most runners won't want the handicap of carrying hardware, and I don't think we can find a reliable vet to chip them all ( For their own protection) but I find the idea intriguing. Obviously, it would be best to establish a separate system just for the race, and not overwhelm the extant OZ infrastructure. ( Not that there is any around this races AO anyway!)?
Good luck Liz, let me know if we can help.
73,
Allen AF6OF -----Original Message-----
From: Grant via groups.io <grant_southey@...> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Nov 23, 2021 3:41 am Subject: Re: [TinyTrak] APRS tracking of runners I dont think my response is going to help solve your issue but it does give some consideration.?
We have helped at a number of events and never have we used APRS for tracking runners, except as mentioned for from of the pack, back of the pack and a few strategic positions, but this has always been done by vehicles and marshals. My greatest concern for mass implementation is the aloha circle of the APRS. The more units you use the less useful it will become because they will transmit over each other and time-sliced units will only give a limited number of slots. I guess the time can be increased to say every 5 minutes and this would increase the number you could use. 100 units transmitting for 5 seconds at a time (without a digipeat) will make for a round time of 8mins 20 seconds. I am sure you want to track more than that number of runners?
The problem with Spots is that they use satellite airtime which is fine if you have one unit, but again having 100 units for s short period of say a day would mean commercial hiring of them or having these units which would otherwise remain static for another year.?
I think this is why the methods stated above are the preferred methods. As far as a runner that is not moving we usually have feedback from other runners at strategic points which are in communications with a JOC or base station.
Grant
ZS1GS
On Tuesday, 23 November 2021, 06:53:54 GMT+2, Liz <liz@...> wrote:
On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 01:05:10 +0000
"Doug J" <vk2xlj@...> wrote: > Hello Group, > > The cheapest way to do this is will RFID bracelets/anklelets. > > They just have a scanning point at each stage and they can get times > and positions off this system, and it is much simpler and cheaper. > > [cid:39006abc-2b68-4440-a1e6-12557005c0c4] > Here is the system being used at the local triathlon > > [cid:ba11d1d1-450b-40e2-ab5b-aff078650a1a] > > > Regards, > > Doug VK2XLJ This does not tell me any more than I already do with a pencil and notebook at my checkpoint. There is a benefit for a large number of participants but not for 30 people over several hours (2 checkins and 2 checkouts each). We are interested in the possibility of a runner who is not moving or whose movements seem very slow. While the very long distance runners carry trackers which give a position report every 15 minutes through the satellite system, I cannot access that data at my position. That's because I have no phone or internet available at my checkpoint at Buddong Falls. If we are uncertain of the fate of a runner, we call race HQ either by HF or using a temporary VHF repeater. Then we discuss whether any one should start looking for them or wait. The terrain is steep and prior to the bushfires the track was rated "Grade 4". There was one place where a rock face was traversed with the assistance of a chain bolted into the rock face. Despite this, most of the track is "line of sight" to a vehicle track on a neighbouring ridge, or to another checkpoint on the park boundary. We were exploring alternate tracking systems because we hope to be back there next October, fire damage repaired and track reopened. This is a map, for those who want to know where we keep the killer kangaroos and the drop bears. Liz VK2XSE |
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Re: Where to buy in Europe ?
Geoffrey,
Byonics does not have any official distributors in Europe. You may find an unofficial dealer with a little bit of inventory. Byonics ships world-wide, generally by USPS Express Mail.?
73,
Allen AF6OF
-----Original Message-----
From: Geoffrey Merck <f4fxl@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, Nov 23, 2021 11:23 am Subject: [TinyTrak] Where to buy in Europe ? Hi All,
Wimo in Germany used to sell the TT4 but they no longer do. Does anyone know any reseller in Europe? I could not find anything online... -- ___________________________________________________________ Geoffrey F4FXL / KC3FRA |
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Re: APRS tracking of runners
I dont think my response is going to help solve your issue but it does give some consideration.? We have helped at a number of events and never have we used APRS for tracking runners, except as mentioned for from of the pack, back of the pack and a few strategic positions, but this has always been done by vehicles and marshals. My greatest concern for mass implementation is the aloha circle of the APRS. The more units you use the less useful it will become because they will transmit over each other and time-sliced units will only give a limited number of slots. I guess the time can be increased to say every 5 minutes and this would increase the number you could use. 100 units transmitting for 5 seconds at a time (without a digipeat) will make for a round time of 8mins 20 seconds. I am sure you want to track more than that number of runners? The problem with Spots is that they use satellite airtime which is fine if you have one unit, but again having 100 units for s short period of say a day would mean commercial hiring of them or having these units which would otherwise remain static for another year.? I think this is why the methods stated above are the preferred methods. As far as a runner that is not moving we usually have feedback from other runners at strategic points which are in communications with a JOC or base station. Grant ZS1GS
On Tuesday, 23 November 2021, 06:53:54 GMT+2, Liz <liz@...> wrote:
On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 01:05:10 +0000 "Doug J" <vk2xlj@...> wrote: > Hello Group, > > The cheapest way to do this is will RFID bracelets/anklelets. > > They just have a scanning point at each stage and they can get times > and positions off this system, and it is much simpler and cheaper. > > [cid:39006abc-2b68-4440-a1e6-12557005c0c4] > Here is the system being used at the local triathlon > > [cid:ba11d1d1-450b-40e2-ab5b-aff078650a1a] > > > Regards, > > Doug VK2XLJ This does not tell me any more than I already do with a pencil and notebook at my checkpoint. There is a benefit for a large number of participants but not for 30 people over several hours (2 checkins and 2 checkouts each). We are interested in the possibility of a runner who is not moving or whose movements seem very slow. While the very long distance runners carry trackers which give a position report every 15 minutes through the satellite system, I cannot access that data at my position. That's because I have no phone or internet available at my checkpoint at Buddong Falls. If we are uncertain of the fate of a runner, we call race HQ either by HF or using a temporary VHF repeater. Then we discuss whether any one should start looking for them or wait. The terrain is steep and prior to the bushfires the track was rated "Grade 4". There was one place where a rock face was traversed with the assistance of a chain bolted into the rock face. Despite this, most of the track is "line of sight" to a vehicle track on a neighbouring ridge, or to another checkpoint on the park boundary. We were exploring alternate tracking systems because we hope to be back there next October, fire damage repaired and track reopened. This is a map, for those who want to know where we keep the killer kangaroos and the drop bears. Liz VK2XSE |
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Re: APRS tracking of runners
Bob Bruninga set up a system like that at the Dayton Hamvention a decade or so ago. He married his RFID readers to an APRS transmitter, so that any RFID tag ( Most were stuck inside of people's shoes) would report over the APRS network. I agree that it has a lot of potential, but its not a setup that is ideal for identifying runner's who may have fallen pray to the deadly poisonous kangaroo, or been knocked down by drop bears.
Looking at Liz's intended area of operation on aprs.fi, it appears to be an APRS ghost town- no APRS infrastructure anywhere near the course. Naturally, the map is not the terrain, so it is hard to predict, but it appears the course could be largely or completely covered with four or five mobile or portable digipeaters. Of course, I have no idea whether those mountain-top high points are accessible.
No to try and discourage sales of our products, a small, low powered tracker like the Sainsonic units ( About $170.00 each...so not especially cheap) might work well. Smaller than a pack of cigarettes, and weighing about 6 ounces ( I am guessing here- its been a long time since I have seen one) might fill the bill.
I suggest this idea because in my experience of such things, races tend to have a fairly wide dispersion of participants. This would be ideal for portable trackers that also operate as digipeaters, since effectively, everyone can be a digipeater for everyone else ( Yes, I know protocols must be followed, and operating off the National frequency would be wise) This mode would probably eliminate the need for as many high-level digipeaters.
If I were to build such a system from the ground up, I would probably use our MTT4B-Mini,? A 2 Watt, nominally one-ounce, transceiver, available as a PCB level project for your packaging) and as many MTT4BT transceivers as I could carry up Mountains or hills. It may be more practical to mount digipeaters on vehicles except on those areas that are beyond their range.? Only your club would really know if these ideas are practical, but they might be worth considering.?
73,
Allen -----Original Message-----
From: Doug J <vk2xlj@...> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Sent: Mon, Nov 22, 2021 5:05 pm Subject: Re: [TinyTrak] APRS tracking of runners
Hello Group,
The cheapest way to do this is will RFID bracelets/anklelets.
They just have a scanning point at each stage and they can get times and positions off this system, and it is much simpler and cheaper.
Here is the system being used at the local triathlon
Regards,
Doug VK2XLJ |
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Re: APRS tracking of runners
On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 01:05:10 +0000
"Doug J" <vk2xlj@...> wrote: Hello Group,This does not tell me any more than I already do with a pencil and notebook at my checkpoint. There is a benefit for a large number of participants but not for 30 people over several hours (2 checkins and 2 checkouts each). We are interested in the possibility of a runner who is not moving or whose movements seem very slow. While the very long distance runners carry trackers which give a position report every 15 minutes through the satellite system, I cannot access that data at my position. That's because I have no phone or internet available at my checkpoint at Buddong Falls. If we are uncertain of the fate of a runner, we call race HQ either by HF or using a temporary VHF repeater. Then we discuss whether any one should start looking for them or wait. The terrain is steep and prior to the bushfires the track was rated "Grade 4". There was one place where a rock face was traversed with the assistance of a chain bolted into the rock face. Despite this, most of the track is "line of sight" to a vehicle track on a neighbouring ridge, or to another checkpoint on the park boundary. We were exploring alternate tracking systems because we hope to be back there next October, fire damage repaired and track reopened. This is a map, for those who want to know where we keep the killer kangaroos and the drop bears. Liz VK2XSE |
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Re: APRS tracking of runners
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Hello Group,
The cheapest way to do this is will RFID bracelets/anklelets.
They just have a scanning point at each stage and they can get times and positions off this system, and it is much simpler and cheaper.
Here is the system being used at the local triathlon
Regards,
Doug VK2XLJ |
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Re: APRS tracking of runners
Bob,
If you are referring to our APRS trackers ( As opposed to the Iridium sat-ased systems like SPOT and INREACH) the short answer is no. With our AIO, you need to open the box and throw the channel slide switch. The idea of a stock SOS button on the outside of the case occurred to me ( And I have built a few that way for certain customers, by adding a latching push SPDT button to the unit.) Two factors that militate against it: Accidental distress calls ( The Amateur world would eat me alive if this happened very often!) and more places in the AIO case for accidental water leaks. All of the TT3 and TT4 products can select a configuration preloaded with the MIC-E distress sym/tables, but some are easier to access that others. Our RTG FA transmitter requires an external switch soldered to a set of pads on the PC board. The RTG-FA ( 90 Watt transmitter) has a 2.5mm, 3 conductor jack available on the box for an external switch and a spare analog telemetry input.
The SPOTS and INREACH units have SOS buttons, as do the personal distress beacons that more or less replaced ELT's and EPIRBs.?
73,
Allen AF6OF -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Bruninga <bruninga@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Mon, Nov 22, 2021 8:01 am Subject: Re: [TinyTrak] APRS tracking of runners Do any of the tracers have an external "emergency" button?
I assume one can just program a different call and Text saying "Help!" and ground the mode select input? bob On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 11:35 AM Allen Lord <allen@...> wrote: > > David, > > You can track pretty much anything, or anyone with an APRS tracker. Dogs, horses, balloons, birds, even people, generally, assuming they consent ( The person...not the horse)? The question of non-hams being tracked centers on who under the law is the "Control Operator" of the transmitter. The Control Operator alone is legally the person responsible for operating the transmitter, and the runner carrying a transmitter is just another vehicle. If however, the runner suddenly decides to mutiny and start sending text messages, turning the transmitter on and off, and assuming legal "Control" of the transmitter, they would be doing so illegally. ( Things may be different down under) > > Of course, should a runner be injured by a deadly Australian drop-bear, they would be able to use an APRS transmitter to issue a distress call .? One frequent way we program the MT-AIO is for channel 1 to be a "pedestrian" ( The runner guy on aprs.fi) with Channel 2 set up to send the distress call. The very few times the distress call is sent on APRS tends to make the entire world absolutely panic when it happens...it's nice to know that someone is watching and cares! > > Much of the legal confusion about tracking things, is the confusion in some people's minds about legal definitions. An APRS transmitter is a Telemetry transmitter within the definitions of the USC. Telemetry transmitters, almost by definition, don't have a "Control Operator" present. Telemetry Transmitters are distinctly different from Beacon transmitters, a type of controlled transmitter used in studying propagation. A few years ago, there were Hams out there saying that APRS transmitters were illegal, based on the definitions they read in the law about "Beacons". ( Being a lawyer is never a pretty thing, especially when they are just Ham, barracks lawyers. Remember , it's 99% of lawyers that give the other one percent a bad name!) > > 73, > > Allen AF6OF > > On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 8:14 AM AC0VH <ac0vh@...> wrote: >> >> Curious why the Spots not sufficient.? I've had one for years to give >> people at home the ability to track me in the backcountry and to have a >> basic SAR SOS should I need it. In other words, they are intended to do >> exactly what the race organizer is doing with them. I got mine >> originally since it was required for some long distance mountain bike >> events I was doing. >> >> Is it a cost issue?? I understand that for sure. >> >> Do you intend to have every runner wear one?? Wouldn't every runner have >> to be a ham or do you intend one call sign for every transmitter with >> hundreds of individual SSIDs or tactical call signs?? LoRa using >> unlicensed ISM spectrum might solve the licensing question.? You could >> position or fly balloons with lots of receivers along the course. >> >> I have an Argent Tracker inside a 5W data radio that I can carry with me >> mountain biking and hiking.? This is essentially a MicroTrak, maybe a >> little bigger but not really much.? It still requires a GPS puck, >> antenna and battery.? So it's considerably more unwieldy than a Spot >> just hung on my backpack strap. >> >> Seems like it would be hard to convince all the runners, especially >> non-hams, to carry such a thing during a race.? In my experience these >> competitors won't even carry a real first aid kit or one stitch of extra >> clothes.? Asking them to carry anything more complex or heavy than a >> Spot seems like a recipe for complaints. >> >> David >> AC0VH >> >> >> On 11/20/21 4:55 PM, Liz wrote: >> > Has anyone any suggestions for tracking of runners using APRS where >> > light weight is a priority? >> > Our amateur radio club provides long distance communications for an >> > ultramarathon through rugged country, where the track is impassable to >> > mountain bikes over some sections. >> > 100 mile participants have been carrying Spot satellite trackers in >> > past events. >> > Has anyone had any experience with MicroTrak trackers for this purpose? >> > >> > Liz VK2XSE >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > |
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Re: APRS tracking of ALL runners
My son used his THD-72 radio to report the position/status of
every one of the dozens of runners on the 40 mile Appalachian trail run across MD. He started at the end and just hiked back to the start.. Starting at the end,, they were spread out enough that he only ran into one or 3 at a time. He maintained a Position STATS text. And manually entered a runner number each time he saw one and when there was a gap, he hit SEND. Thise packets documented where runners were and when. Or could do it with a message. The message would have a list of runners and the TIME of transmission. This time and list is then correlated with the reporter's position. You only get one report per runner (usually nearing the end), but enough to provide for last-known position knowledge. I have a web page on this but would have to look for it. bob |
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Re: APRS tracking of runners
Do any of the tracers have an external "emergency" button?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I assume one can just program a different call and Text saying "Help!" and ground the mode select input? bob On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 11:35 AM Allen Lord <allen@...> wrote:
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Re: APRS tracking of runners
On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 09:13:58 -0700
"AC0VH" <ac0vh@...> wrote: Curious why the Spots not sufficient.? I've had one for years to give The cost is the concern, although at the last race (2019, pre-Covid) there would have been about 30 in the 100 mile event, not a very large number, and the cost of the Spot tracker would have been in their entrance fee. The lesser distance routes are all mountain bike traversable, so safety for those is assured in a different way. Liz VK2XSE |
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Re: APRS tracking of runners
David,
I am making a lot of assumptions about how Liz's race will operate, and based on those presumptions ( Which could be entirely wrong) it sounds like? the SPOT or a Garmin Inreach would be the optimal choice, especially if a significant portion of the course goes into "god lost his shoes" kind of territory. I apologize if you took my post to mean I thought you might be a lawyer ( I considered law school, but they threw out my application when they found out my parents were married)?
I wonder if there might be someone out there that rents SPOTs or Inreach units for special events? ( I am also assuming that Liz's race will not take place in North America where you can rent almost anything...perhaps anything...if you look hard enough) I think our chances of converting all the runner's to Hams is an optimistic idea, attractive as it may be!
Riley Hollingsworth spoke quite eloquently some years ago about the uses and applications of APRS. In summary, he said " Do whatever is best to promote Amateur Radio in the public service" His actual remarks can probably be found easily enough on Google. I suspect that in this particular case, American Amateur Radio? rules will not be a factor.?
73,
Allen AF6OF?
-----Original Message-----
From: AC0VH <ac0vh@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Sun, Nov 21, 2021 9:03 am Subject: Re: [TinyTrak] APRS tracking of runners I know about using your privileges and call sign for other devices such
as your dog, a balloon launch or your kid. Sure, the rules also talk about telemetry and fixed stations.? But beyond the parsing the words you have to accept the spirit of the rules.? It's meant that even if you're not physically near you would still have the capability to control it remotely or the station can be reached eventually. A balloon is the most similar parallel.? But of course but now it's several hundred individual balloons strung out over 100 miles of mountainous terrain. That's why I was asking if he intended to stretch that definition to give out trackers to every runner.? A balloon station might malfunction but you have a couple of teams following it in the event it malfunctions or stops working.? In that case you have just the one station's last known location to start from. Say it's 2 runner's trackers or 20 or 100 that fail or end up stuck in TX on runners who are not technically savvy or maybe even know it's stopped working.? What's being proposed are one-way beacons, not full two-way APRS stations where you might notice you're not getting other stations or messages. I'm not a lawyer I do a lot of endurance events and backcountry travel.? Is any of this something you'd want to assume responsibility for as a volunteer?? Particularly in light of the fact that off grid tracking and SOS hardware and systems are something Globalstar/Spot, Iridium, Garmin/InReach, ACR, COSPAS-SARSAT, etc. have already debugged and put in place? Will the supporting sheriff or SAR group even be OK with this? They probably required the SPOTs on the runners in the first place. David AC0VH On 11/21/21 9:34 AM, Allen Lord wrote: > David, > > You can track pretty much anything, or anyone with an APRS tracker. > Dogs, horses, balloons, birds, even people, generally, assuming they > consent ( The person...not the horse)? The question of non-hams being > tracked centers on who under the law is the "Control Operator" of the > transmitter. The Control Operator alone is legally the person > responsible for operating the transmitter, and the runner carrying a > transmitter is just another vehicle. If however, the runner > suddenly?decides to mutiny and start sending text messages, turning > the transmitter on and off, and assuming legal "Control" of the > transmitter, they would be doing so illegally. ( Things may be > different down under) > > Of course, should a runner be injured?by a deadly > Australian?drop-bear, they would be able to use an APRS transmitter to > issue a distress call .? One frequent way we program the MT-AIO is for > channel 1 to be a "pedestrian" ( The runner guy on aprs.fi > <>) with Channel 2 set up?to send the distress call. The > very few times the distress call is sent on APRS tends to make the > entire world absolutely?panic when it happens...it's nice to know that > someone is watching and cares! > > Much of the legal confusion about tracking things, is the confusion in > some people's minds about legal definitions. An APRS transmitter is a > Telemetry transmitter within the definitions of the USC. Telemetry > transmitters, almost by definition, don't have a "Control Operator" > present. Telemetry Transmitters are distinctly different from Beacon > transmitters, a type of controlled transmitter used in studying > propagation. A few years ago, there were Hams out there saying that > APRS transmitters were illegal, based on the definitions they read in > the law about "Beacons". ( Being a lawyer is never a pretty thing, > especially when they are just Ham, barracks?lawyers. Remember , it's > 99% of lawyers that give the other one percent a bad name!) > > 73, > > Allen AF6OF > > On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 8:14 AM AC0VH <ac0vh@...> wrote: > >? ? Curious why the Spots not sufficient.? I've had one for years to give >? ? people at home the ability to track me in the backcountry and to >? ? have a >? ? basic SAR SOS should I need it. In other words, they are intended >? ? to do >? ? exactly what the race organizer is doing with them. I got mine >? ? originally since it was required for some long distance mountain bike >? ? events I was doing. > >? ? Is it a cost issue?? I understand that for sure. > >? ? Do you intend to have every runner wear one?? Wouldn't every >? ? runner have >? ? to be a ham or do you intend one call sign for every transmitter with >? ? hundreds of individual SSIDs or tactical call signs?? LoRa using >? ? unlicensed ISM spectrum might solve the licensing question. You could >? ? position or fly balloons with lots of receivers along the course. > >? ? I have an Argent Tracker inside a 5W data radio that I can carry >? ? with me >? ? mountain biking and hiking.? This is essentially a MicroTrak, maybe a >? ? little bigger but not really much.? It still requires a GPS puck, >? ? antenna and battery.? So it's considerably more unwieldy than a Spot >? ? just hung on my backpack strap. > >? ? Seems like it would be hard to convince all the runners, especially >? ? non-hams, to carry such a thing during a race.? In my experience these >? ? competitors won't even carry a real first aid kit or one stitch of >? ? extra >? ? clothes.? Asking them to carry anything more complex or heavy than a >? ? Spot seems like a recipe for complaints. > >? ? David >? ? AC0VH > > >? ? On 11/20/21 4:55 PM, Liz wrote: >? ? > Has anyone any suggestions for tracking of runners using APRS where >? ? > light weight is a priority? >? ? > Our amateur radio club provides long distance communications for an >? ? > ultramarathon through rugged country, where the track is >? ? impassable to >? ? > mountain bikes over some sections. >? ? > 100 mile participants have been carrying Spot satellite trackers in >? ? > past events. >? ? > Has anyone had any experience with MicroTrak trackers for this >? ? purpose? >? ? > >? ? > Liz VK2XSE >? ? > >? ? > >? ? > >? ? > >? ? > > > > > > > > > |
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Re: APRS tracking of runners
I know about using your privileges and call sign for other devices such
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
as your dog, a balloon launch or your kid. Sure, the rules also talk about telemetry and fixed stations.? But beyond the parsing the words you have to accept the spirit of the rules.? It's meant that even if you're not physically near you would still have the capability to control it remotely or the station can be reached eventually. A balloon is the most similar parallel.? But of course but now it's several hundred individual balloons strung out over 100 miles of mountainous terrain. That's why I was asking if he intended to stretch that definition to give out trackers to every runner.? A balloon station might malfunction but you have a couple of teams following it in the event it malfunctions or stops working.? In that case you have just the one station's last known location to start from. Say it's 2 runner's trackers or 20 or 100 that fail or end up stuck in TX on runners who are not technically savvy or maybe even know it's stopped working.? What's being proposed are one-way beacons, not full two-way APRS stations where you might notice you're not getting other stations or messages. I'm not a lawyer I do a lot of endurance events and backcountry travel.? Is any of this something you'd want to assume responsibility for as a volunteer?? Particularly in light of the fact that off grid tracking and SOS hardware and systems are something Globalstar/Spot, Iridium, Garmin/InReach, ACR, COSPAS-SARSAT, etc. have already debugged and put in place? Will the supporting sheriff or SAR group even be OK with this? They probably required the SPOTs on the runners in the first place. David AC0VH On 11/21/21 9:34 AM, Allen Lord wrote:
David, |
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Re: APRS tracking of runners
David, You can track pretty much anything, or anyone with an APRS tracker. Dogs, horses, balloons, birds, even people, generally, assuming they consent ( The person...not the horse)? The question of non-hams being tracked centers on who under the law is the "Control Operator" of the transmitter. The Control Operator alone is legally the person responsible for operating the transmitter, and the runner carrying a transmitter is just another vehicle. If however, the runner suddenly?decides to mutiny and start sending text messages, turning the transmitter on and off, and assuming legal "Control" of the transmitter, they would be doing so illegally. ( Things may be different down under)? Of course, should a runner be injured?by a deadly Australian?drop-bear, they would be able to use an APRS transmitter to issue a distress call .? One frequent way we program the MT-AIO is for channel 1 to be a "pedestrian" ( The runner guy on ) with Channel 2 set up?to send the distress call. The very few times the distress call is sent on APRS tends to make the entire world absolutely?panic when it happens...it's nice to know that someone is watching and cares!? Much of the legal confusion about tracking things, is the confusion in some people's minds about legal definitions. An APRS transmitter is a Telemetry transmitter within the definitions of the USC. Telemetry transmitters, almost by definition, don't have a "Control Operator" present. Telemetry Transmitters are distinctly different from Beacon transmitters, a type of controlled transmitter used in studying propagation. A few years ago, there were Hams out there saying that APRS transmitters were illegal, based on the definitions they read in the law about "Beacons". ( Being a lawyer is never a pretty thing, especially when they are just Ham, barracks?lawyers. Remember , it's 99% of lawyers that give the other one percent a bad name!)? 73, Allen AF6OF On Sun, Nov 21, 2021 at 8:14 AM AC0VH <ac0vh@...> wrote: Curious why the Spots not sufficient.? I've had one for years to give |
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Re: APRS tracking of runners
Curious why the Spots not sufficient.? I've had one for years to give
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
people at home the ability to track me in the backcountry and to have a basic SAR SOS should I need it. In other words, they are intended to do exactly what the race organizer is doing with them. I got mine originally since it was required for some long distance mountain bike events I was doing. Is it a cost issue?? I understand that for sure. Do you intend to have every runner wear one?? Wouldn't every runner have to be a ham or do you intend one call sign for every transmitter with hundreds of individual SSIDs or tactical call signs?? LoRa using unlicensed ISM spectrum might solve the licensing question.? You could position or fly balloons with lots of receivers along the course. I have an Argent Tracker inside a 5W data radio that I can carry with me mountain biking and hiking.? This is essentially a MicroTrak, maybe a little bigger but not really much.? It still requires a GPS puck, antenna and battery.? So it's considerably more unwieldy than a Spot just hung on my backpack strap. Seems like it would be hard to convince all the runners, especially non-hams, to carry such a thing during a race.? In my experience these competitors won't even carry a real first aid kit or one stitch of extra clothes.? Asking them to carry anything more complex or heavy than a Spot seems like a recipe for complaints. David AC0VH On 11/20/21 4:55 PM, Liz wrote:
Has anyone any suggestions for tracking of runners using APRS where |
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Re: APRS tracking of runners
Liz,
Lots of people use APRS for tracking races. Very few that I know of track the runners, just the support vehicles, bicycles, SAG Wagons, and emergency vehicles.?
Most APRS trackers that would be suitable for tracking a person are going to be a bit of an irritant to a runner. Although we ( Byonics) make a number of very small, low powered transmitters/transceivers, my experience leads me to believe that in most cases, trackers with less than two Watts output are not going to prove especially effective on terrestrial targets ( runners) Our most popular tracker for pedestrian use is our MT-AIO, a self contained tracker with 14 Watts output ( with Lipo batteries) and weighs about 10 ounces.
If you have enough time, you can get by with very low powered trackers by seeding the course with portable or mobile digipeaters in areas that you have determined do not have adequate coverage. Our MTT4BT transmitters are popular as plug & Play mobile digipeaters, and most Ham clubs have a few people with Kenwood, Yaesu, etc APRS mobile and handhelds that will do a good job.?
If the off-trail safety of your runners is of primary importance ( We would not want them to be injured by the wild, poisonous Kangaroos or deadly Drop Bears) You may want to use Iridium-system based tracking transmitters, some of which are quite small and light.
73,
Allen AF6OF
-----Original Message-----
From: Liz <liz@...> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Sent: Sat, Nov 20, 2021 3:55 pm Subject: [TinyTrak] APRS tracking of runners Has anyone any suggestions for tracking of runners using APRS where
light weight is a priority?
Our amateur radio club provides long distance communications for an
ultramarathon through rugged country, where the track is impassable to
mountain bikes over some sections.
100 mile participants have been carrying Spot satellite trackers in
past events.
Has anyone had any experience with MicroTrak trackers for this purpose?
Liz VK2XSE
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Re: APRS tracking of runners
If weight is a priority, have you considered using LoRa units?
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Something like this (there are plenty of other options): You can still use the APRS protocol: -Dj On 11/20/21 18:55, Liz wrote:
Has anyone any suggestions for tracking of runners using APRS where --
Dj Merrill - N1JOV Currently Flying: Glastar Previously: Cessna 150 - Glasair 1 FT - Grumman AA1B |
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Re: APRS tracking of runners
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýYou can try the tiny trackers with a program called DMAPPER. This program receives the tracking info and can transfer the info to a mapping program such as Terrain Navigator Pro. ?You may need some fill in digipeaters to fill in some holes. If you have a mobile radio with a TNC attached, you can track all of this near the event. You would not need internet access then.?Jardy Dawson WA7JRD Message sent by....Oh look!! Pretty lights!! On Nov 20, 2021, at 15:55, Liz <liz@...> wrote:
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APRS tracking of runners
Has anyone any suggestions for tracking of runners using APRS where
light weight is a priority? Our amateur radio club provides long distance communications for an ultramarathon through rugged country, where the track is impassable to mountain bikes over some sections. 100 mile participants have been carrying Spot satellite trackers in past events. Has anyone had any experience with MicroTrak trackers for this purpose? Liz VK2XSE |
Doug J
Dj Merrill
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