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Re: MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle - Antenna Pattern
Sure,
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The program EZNEC is a great way to see antenna patgterns. The free version lets you build antenna (and strucgture) models of up to 500 pointe. I cannot live without it! Bob On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 6:24 PM Gil Smith <tinytrak@...> wrote:
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Re: MicroTrak AIO GPS question
There are 2 main reasons fro no TX: 1. No position available - as you said, GPS issue ?? Does the GPS indicate it has a fix? ?? I think if you open the case, you can see the GPS LED ?? Do the LEDs continuoously flash RED and GREEN? ?? Or just the GREEN LED flashing - no GPS fix? ?? GPS green LED OFFor turns off after TX (oh wait it doesn't do that). 2. Radio thinks the channel (RF) is active Not fully familiar with the AIO, but with the TT3 (base uP used), the CD / Audio is sampled to determine if the radio channel is busy.?? R9 is used to set a level.? Adjusting that may help. Do youy see a TX indication with no TX, or there is no indication the unit does into TX? Robert Giuliano
On Saturday, September 18, 2021, 08:29:50 PM EDT, Marc Withasea <marc.hutchins@...> wrote:
Hello
Sorry newbie here. Bought a used TT3 AIO and am having issues getting to TX. It TX on powerup It TX on 1200 and 2200hz test. It does not appear to periodically TX (every 2 mins). My suspicions are that the built in GPS is not providing valid data. Any clues as to how to determine if the GPS is valid or Locked on? thanks. K8MH (at Arrl.net) -marc |
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MicroTrak AIO GPS question
Hello Sorry newbie here. Bought a used TT3 AIO and am having issues getting to TX. It TX on powerup It TX on 1200 and 2200hz test. It does not appear to periodically TX (every 2 mins). My suspicions are that the built in GPS is not providing valid data. Any clues as to how to determine if the GPS is valid or Locked on? thanks. K8MH (at Arrl.net) -marc |
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Re: MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle - Antenna Pattern
That's interesting Bob.? I never really considered that some antenna geometry could impact impedance more than pattern, or vice-versa. Do you know of any open-source 3d em antenna simulators?? Would be interesting to create an antenna (and whatever groundplane mounts it) in solidworks or solvespace or such, and import into an em solver to see patterns at various freqs -- if something like that is feasible. thx, gil ----- Original message ----- From: Robert Bruninga <bruninga@...> Subject: Re: [TinyTrak] MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle - Antenna Pattern Date: Saturday, September 18, 2021 12:43 PM FYI, Everyone has seen the full spherical radiation pattern of a dipole and the hemisphere pattern of a 1/4 wave over groundplane with an additional 3 dB gain? Bit it is not valid in most cases. No matter how you mount the antenna to its "ground plane" it will? not have a hemisphere pattern unless the ground plane is an INFINITE sheet of metal in all directions.? Similarly it wont have the added 3 dB gain either. The radials or metal of the small vehicle will in fact, lend to a match to the coax, but it does little to the antenna pattern.? At any distance from a raised radial ground plane antenna, it will still be an omni pattern.? The radials, etc only help provide a match.? Of course on a car or s omethign approaching the size of a wavelength, then there will be a pattern developed.? But not due to radials on a raised "ground plane" antenna. Just sayin. Bob,wb4apr On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 11:23 AM Allen Lord <allen@...> wrote: > > Do you mean a 1/4 whip with four or more 45 degree radiators when you refer to a "Ground Plane" antenna? Or a quarter wave whip mounted to the bike's chassis? > > 73, > > Allen AF6OF > > On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 6:57 PM <toy4trax@...> wrote: >> >> Allen, >> >> I'd have the MTT4BT in a pelican type case, similar to the AIO. If the AIO would have been transmit and receive, GSA, GSV, that would have been a good combo... but alas, no. >> >> Anyway, my goal was to take the GSA, GSV to/from my Garmin for GPS and display of the APRS waypoints. All this works on the bench. >> So, MTT4BT in pelican case, bulkhead connectors out to Power/data, antenna. >> >> Got the 8 watt so the ground-plane would not be an issue on an ATV/Moto(?). Maybe I'm wrong with this? > >? |
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Re: MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle - Antenna Pattern
FYI, Everyone has seen the full spherical radiation pattern of a dipole and the
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Show quoted text
hemisphere pattern of a 1/4 wave over groundplane with an additional 3 dB gain Bit it is not valid in most cases. No matter how you mount the antenna to its "ground plane" it will not have a hemisphere pattern unless the ground plane is an INFINITE sheet of metal in all directions. Similarly it wont have the added 3 dB gain either. The radials or metal of the small vehicle will in fact, lend to a match to the coax, but it does little to the antenna pattern. At any distance from a raised radial ground plane antenna, it will still be an omni pattern. The radials, etc only help provide a match. Of course on a car or s omethign approaching the size of a wavelength, then there will be a pattern developed. But not due to radials on a raised "ground plane" antenna. Just sayin. Bob,wb4apr On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 11:23 AM Allen Lord <allen@...> wrote:
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Re: MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle
Do you mean a 1/4 whip with four or more 45 degree radiators when you refer to a "Ground Plane" antenna? Or a quarter wave whip mounted to the bike's chassis?? 73, Allen AF6OF On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 6:57 PM <toy4trax@...> wrote: Allen, |
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Re: MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle
Allen,
I'd have the MTT4BT in a pelican type case, similar to the AIO. If the AIO would have been transmit and receive, GSA, GSV, that would have been a good combo... but alas, no. Anyway, my goal was to take the GSA, GSV to/from my Garmin for GPS and display of the APRS waypoints. All this works on the bench. So, MTT4BT in pelican case, bulkhead connectors out to Power/data, antenna. Got the 8 watt so the ground-plane would not be an issue on an ATV/Moto(?). Maybe I'm wrong with this? |
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Re: MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle
That UXcell looks like a very interesting connector for rotator and preamp power/control cables.? Wish the wires were heavier than #22.? I've been using 6 or 8-pole automotive trailer connectors; they are waterproof enough for my needs (deployable HF/VHF/satellite station).? A bit bulky for hiking but might work for the OPs application.
73 Steve KS1G |
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Re: MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle
Agree,
I'm only targeting the hiker along a mountain trail where he has excellent altitude, nearby digis and can select when to TX from an ideal spot. GPS remains off until just before TX. So, yes, I guess the name would be a "mountain hiker tracker". Agree low power will not work in any other situation. In that sense, it is maybe not a hat-attached tracker, but a pull-it-out-and-PTT "reporting" device at only good spots. Pull it out (unpowered), and press ON button until green LED shows GPS fix, and then press PTT. If radio chip is XCVR, then skilled operator can hear and usually distinguish a "digipeated" copy of his packet. OR TX again until he does... Bob Bob On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 4:06 PM vhsproducts via groups.io <vhsproducts@...> wrote:
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Re: MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle
Its not really a problem to build a tiny APRS Transmitter that can fit in a hat. Even our little 15 mW Micro-Fox Transmitter can be reloaded with the APRS firmware, and as you might expect, 15 mW's is more than enough power for an HAB at altitude. In balloon transmitters, we tend to keep the GPS on, which improves accuracy and reacquisition if the GPS loses a good position. In terrestrial, battery powered operations, we cycle the GPS power on before a scheduled transmission to save power.
As a practical matter, we have found that power levels of much less than 2 Watts are nearly useless for terrestrial operation, since you pretty much have to have a packet received 5 X 5 with full receiver quieting to get good decodable signals ( The range just about doubles with the same power at 300 Baud, but who would hear it?)?
Our MT-2001 transmitter might fit the hat- need. Its a bit bigger than an MF-15, but trying to run a 2 Watt transmitter and a GPS with a 9 Volt "Transistor Radio Battery" is going to be tough. Perhaps 3 CR-123's might be enough for the job. Even our ten Watt MT-AIO ( Or 14 Watts if you operate it from 4 X 14500 LiPos) does not make all of our back-country hikers happy, even with exotic antennas, like the Smiley 5/8ths wave telescoping antenna, or the Abbree 48 inch long "tape measure" style antenna. ( The world needs more I-Gates!)?
73,
Allen AF6OF -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Bruninga <bruninga@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Fri, Sep 17, 2021 12:32 pm Subject: Re: [TinyTrak] MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle I want to see a tiny lightweight Balloon tracker on 144.39 that can be fit
to a ball cap or backpack and can run for 8 hours or more on a 9v battery. It also has a PTT manual beacon mode when in a good position. Otherwise it is a 10 minute beacon.? Antenna is 19" wire that hangs down the back. Good for day hiking. bob On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 10:35 PM Rob Giuliano via groups.io <kb8rco=[email protected]> wrote: > > Couldn't disagree more! > The worse connecter ever designed was not really a connector at all - automotive cigarette lighter. > To this day, teh automotive industry uses the HUGE circular (inefficient) plug for powering all kinds of devices.? Lots of devices using the DB9 (actually DE9 - TT4 included), but that isn't waterproof either. > > That said, there aren't many waterproof connectors designed for computers (in house devices).? Your best bet is to remove the mini-DIN and replace it with something "in-line".? I always liked the round AMP connectors.? They make a good variety with panel mount, or about any combination, even with different sized pins.? Harder to find now. > > Uxcell makes a very similar connector: https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Female-Waterproof-Connector-Strips/dp/B00X77LQ3I/ref=sr_1_18?dchild=1&keywords=amp+6+pin+waterproof+connectors&qid=1631845117&sr=8-18. > > > > Robert Giuliano > KB8RCO > > > > On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 09:44:42 PM EDT, Cliff Sojourner <cls@...> wrote: > > > Ha, yeah, arguably the mini DIN 6 was the worst choice for a device intended to go mobile. > > I've had good results putting the unit in a good Tupperware container. I zip tie the mini DIN cable to the TT box. Consider foam etc to pack the TT, and how to grommet the cables going out of the plastic box. > > Cliff K6CLS CM87 > > On September 16, 2021 3:29:51 PM PDT, toy4trax@... wrote: > > Looking to do an install on my ATV and/or Motorcycle. While the unit itself is going to be in a waterproof location, I'm looking for cabling thru to the battery which will be exposed to water. I'm not having much luck with finding waterproof mini-din 6 connectors. > > Ideally, I have the MTT4BT's Mini Din 6 cable routes to a central location where i can split off to power, and Serial cable to the GPS. > > Thoughts? > > |
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Re: MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle
I want to see a tiny lightweight Balloon tracker on 144.39 that can be fit
to a ball cap or backpack and can run for 8 hours or more on a 9v battery. It also has a PTT manual beacon mode when in a good position. Otherwise it is a 10 minute beacon. Antenna is 19" wire that hangs down the back. Good for day hiking. bob On Thu, Sep 16, 2021 at 10:35 PM Rob Giuliano via groups.io <kb8rco@...> wrote:
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Re: MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýAlan,All excellent points in the installation and hardware! Also agree that those compromise antennas radiate equally poorly in all directions! The choice of a 5/8's wave antenna as you point out would require a reasonable counterpoise which may be hard to attain on a motorcycle and may be directive as well as changes with riders or not.? Perhaps the choice of a 1/2 wave antenna would be better because it does not require a counterpoise.? These antennas are common in marine installations and vehicles with fiberglass bodies. YMMV, 73 Jon K1IMD On 9/17/2021 09:45, vhsproducts via
groups.io wrote:
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Re: MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle
On my bicycle I have a steel plate behind the seat (or a gadget bag) and us that as the ground plane for a 1/4 wave vertical.? Analyzer showed? about 1.2:1.? I ran my MTT4B (pre-BT) that way for about 2 summers.? Reminds me, I need to get back to riding! I agree on the connectors.? Even if you change the 6-pin miniDIN for something "waterproof", the case is not waterproof.? So where ever you put the case, you can put the GPS (if it has a sky view!).? Then the only connection to worry about is power.? Lots of 2-pin, waterproof connectors to choose from!? You can leave the PowerPole connector in with the case and GPS.? Robert Giuliano
On Friday, September 17, 2021, 09:45:07 AM EDT, vhsproducts via groups.io <vhsproducts@...> wrote:
Okay, It's a little early here in California, but I am a little unclear on the install concept. Is the plan to use the non-waterproof Byonics cable's mini-din connector? outside the waterproof ( There is no such thing of course) enclosure? So the general idea is that you want a waterproof chassis mount din on the box, with the also-not-waterproof DB-9 connector and not-waterproof-at-all Anderson PowerPole connectors also outside the enclosure??
Any chance the GPS? would have a view of the sky if left inside the enclosure? This would mean that you would only need to bring DC power and and the RF out of the box through waterproof connectors. The GPS will generally provide good position reports even in really horrible locations. I frequently test them on the floor boards of my car. They just take a little longer to acquire a valid position after power-up. The trunk of a car is not a good place, but I have even installed these under dashboards with good results.?
Mini-DIN's are not ideal for mobile installations, although they are however used in car audio and other electronic gear all the time. Their chief fault is that they are not capable of handling a great number of operation-cycles ( Plug-unplug-repeat) Their spring tension will fatigue with a lot of cycles and they get loose and occasionally intermittent. Using Zip ties to hold them in place often creates an off-axis stress that prematurely fatigues the springiness of the interference fit.?
The main problem I see in motorcycle and other light vehicle installations comes from the problems associated with compromise antennas. The MTT4BT will tolerate a lot of "badness" ( There is more to RF antenna badness than just SWR!) with compromise antennas. Rubber duck antennas ( Which any RF engineer and scientist will tell you are the work of Satan) will just not work at all, and will probably smoke your MTT4BT's power amp or worse. The higher power MTT4BT-40 internally weighs a couple ounces. The Mass of a motorcycle will not provide enough of a counterpoise to load the antenna unless you really go "Whole Hog" ( See what I did there with the Harley allusion"? ) and weld a tab onto your chassis/frame/fuselage for a "real" mobile antenna, optimally, a 5/8ths wave whip. If you remove that whip with the device transmitting, dark things may happen. You can of course, turn the RF power down in either flavor of MTT4BT's to accommodate antennas that are less than optimal.?
If you opt to install the higher power MTT4BT-40 on a motorcycle with anything short of a serious mobile antenna, I suggest you also leave room on your bike for a fire extinguisher...
73,
Allen AF6OF -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Giuliano via groups.io <kb8rco@...> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Sent: Thu, Sep 16, 2021 7:35 pm Subject: Re: [TinyTrak] MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle Couldn't disagree more!
The worse connecter ever designed was not really a connector at all - automotive cigarette lighter.
To this day, teh automotive industry uses the HUGE circular (inefficient) plug for powering all kinds of devices.? Lots of devices using the DB9 (actually DE9 - TT4 included), but that isn't waterproof either.
That said, there aren't many waterproof connectors designed for computers (in house devices).? Your best bet is to remove the mini-DIN and replace it with something "in-line".? I always liked the round AMP connectors.? They make a good variety with panel mount, or about any combination, even with different sized pins.? Harder to find now.
Uxcell makes a very similar connector: .
Robert Giuliano
KB8RCO
On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 09:44:42 PM EDT, Cliff Sojourner <cls@...> wrote:
Ha, yeah, arguably the mini DIN 6 was the worst choice for a device intended to go mobile.
I've had good results putting the unit in a good Tupperware container. I zip tie the mini DIN cable to the TT box. Consider foam etc to pack the TT, and how to grommet the cables going out of the plastic box. Cliff K6CLS CM87 On September 16, 2021 3:29:51 PM PDT, toy4trax@... wrote:
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Re: MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle
Okay, It's a little early here in California, but I am a little unclear on the install concept. Is the plan to use the non-waterproof Byonics cable's mini-din connector? outside the waterproof ( There is no such thing of course) enclosure? So the general idea is that you want a waterproof chassis mount din on the box, with the also-not-waterproof DB-9 connector and not-waterproof-at-all Anderson PowerPole connectors also outside the enclosure??
Any chance the GPS? would have a view of the sky if left inside the enclosure? This would mean that you would only need to bring DC power and and the RF out of the box through waterproof connectors. The GPS will generally provide good position reports even in really horrible locations. I frequently test them on the floor boards of my car. They just take a little longer to acquire a valid position after power-up. The trunk of a car is not a good place, but I have even installed these under dashboards with good results.?
Mini-DIN's are not ideal for mobile installations, although they are however used in car audio and other electronic gear all the time. Their chief fault is that they are not capable of handling a great number of operation-cycles ( Plug-unplug-repeat) Their spring tension will fatigue with a lot of cycles and they get loose and occasionally intermittent. Using Zip ties to hold them in place often creates an off-axis stress that prematurely fatigues the springiness of the interference fit.?
The main problem I see in motorcycle and other light vehicle installations comes from the problems associated with compromise antennas. The MTT4BT will tolerate a lot of "badness" ( There is more to RF antenna badness than just SWR!) with compromise antennas. Rubber duck antennas ( Which any RF engineer and scientist will tell you are the work of Satan) will just not work at all, and will probably smoke your MTT4BT's power amp or worse. The higher power MTT4BT-40 internally weighs a couple ounces. The Mass of a motorcycle will not provide enough of a counterpoise to load the antenna unless you really go "Whole Hog" ( See what I did there with the Harley allusion"? ) and weld a tab onto your chassis/frame/fuselage for a "real" mobile antenna, optimally, a 5/8ths wave whip. If you remove that whip with the device transmitting, dark things may happen. You can of course, turn the RF power down in either flavor of MTT4BT's to accommodate antennas that are less than optimal.?
If you opt to install the higher power MTT4BT-40 on a motorcycle with anything short of a serious mobile antenna, I suggest you also leave room on your bike for a fire extinguisher...
73,
Allen AF6OF -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Giuliano via groups.io <kb8rco@...> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Sent: Thu, Sep 16, 2021 7:35 pm Subject: Re: [TinyTrak] MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle Couldn't disagree more!
The worse connecter ever designed was not really a connector at all - automotive cigarette lighter.
To this day, teh automotive industry uses the HUGE circular (inefficient) plug for powering all kinds of devices.? Lots of devices using the DB9 (actually DE9 - TT4 included), but that isn't waterproof either.
That said, there aren't many waterproof connectors designed for computers (in house devices).? Your best bet is to remove the mini-DIN and replace it with something "in-line".? I always liked the round AMP connectors.? They make a good variety with panel mount, or about any combination, even with different sized pins.? Harder to find now.
Uxcell makes a very similar connector: .
Robert Giuliano
KB8RCO
On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 09:44:42 PM EDT, Cliff Sojourner <cls@...> wrote:
Ha, yeah, arguably the mini DIN 6 was the worst choice for a device intended to go mobile.
I've had good results putting the unit in a good Tupperware container. I zip tie the mini DIN cable to the TT box. Consider foam etc to pack the TT, and how to grommet the cables going out of the plastic box. Cliff K6CLS CM87 On September 16, 2021 3:29:51 PM PDT, toy4trax@... wrote:
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Re: MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle
Couldn't disagree more! The worse connecter ever designed was not really a connector at all - automotive cigarette lighter. To this day, teh automotive industry uses the HUGE circular (inefficient) plug for powering all kinds of devices.? Lots of devices using the DB9 (actually DE9 - TT4 included), but that isn't waterproof either. That said, there aren't many waterproof connectors designed for computers (in house devices).? Your best bet is to remove the mini-DIN and replace it with something "in-line".? I always liked the round AMP connectors.? They make a good variety with panel mount, or about any combination, even with different sized pins.? Harder to find now. Uxcell makes a very similar connector: . Robert Giuliano
On Thursday, September 16, 2021, 09:44:42 PM EDT, Cliff Sojourner <cls@...> wrote:
Ha, yeah, arguably the mini DIN 6 was the worst choice for a device intended to go mobile. I've had good results putting the unit in a good Tupperware container. I zip tie the mini DIN cable to the TT box. Consider foam etc to pack the TT, and how to grommet the cables going out of the plastic box. Cliff K6CLS CM87 On September 16, 2021 3:29:51 PM PDT, toy4trax@... wrote:
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Re: MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle
Ha, yeah, arguably the mini DIN 6 was the worst choice for a device intended to go mobile.
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Show quoted text
I've had good results putting the unit in a good Tupperware container. I zip tie the mini DIN cable to the TT box. Consider foam etc to pack the TT, and how to grommet the cables going out of the plastic box. Cliff K6CLS CM87 On September 16, 2021 3:29:51 PM PDT, toy4trax@... wrote:
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MTT4BT Installation on ATV/Motorcycle
Looking to do an install on my ATV and/or Motorcycle. While the unit itself is going to be in a waterproof location, I'm looking for cabling thru to the battery which will be exposed to water. I'm not having much luck with finding waterproof mini-din 6 connectors. Ideally, I have the MTT4BT's Mini Din 6 cable routes to a central location where i can split off to power, and Serial cable to the GPS. |
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Re: TT4TrackerConfig software.?
A great deal of Byonics dated material is available on the Wayback machine:?https://web.archive.org/web/20100416075947/http://www.byonics.com/microtrak/ I use it myself pretty often.
73,
Allen AF6OF -----Original Message-----
From: Steve (KS1G) <ks1g04@...> To: [email protected] Sent: Sat, Sep 4, 2021 8:14 pm Subject: Re: [TinyTrak] TT4TrackerConfig software.? Thank you, gentlemen. ?I have a copy of the config software from when I purchased the TT4, so I should be ok. ?But good to know where it¡¯s available on the bionics site and elsewhere.
73 Steve KS1G? |
Cliff Sojourner K6CLS
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