On Thu, Nov 2, 2023 at 07:44 AM, Reginald Beardsley wrote:
Yes, it is the best RF book I've ever read
Finally de-crypted, it is Dr. Lee's book. And now we know that's the best book Reg has ever read on RF. According to a quick survey (of course not statistically valid)... of the locals..Prof. Lee's book is the best book they never read... or couldn't afford to read... topping our at 900 pages... and emptying the wallet at 200.00. Some were made to read it... but, that's de rigueur... if you evenly want to bump heads, in the faculty club. Not to say that it's over-page-age... or over priced... for today's text books. (If you want? to pay to save trees... the Kindle version is even more expensive.) I'd say ... if you can get it... 'read' it... or read it, if you've got that much time. The best book on microwave engineering... I never read... because I'd have to outlive Kirk Douglas... is really a bunch of books... The MIT Radiation Laboratory Series. They are tough to understand... and tough to read. And they are free. Some of the things they did... which were microwave 'rocket science' at the time...with cutting edge gear... are things hobbyist can now do... with gear that's available, without mortgaging the homestead. Lastly... before I go back to testing test equipment...IMO, Prof. Lee's book isn't about radio... oddly enough... I think its about planar microwave engineering... but, what do I know.
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Bravo!
On Thursday, November 2, 2023 at 11:42:13 AM CDT, Adrian Godwin <artgodwin@...> wrote:
This thread is getting more bizarre by the moment.
Reginald recommended
"Planar Microwave Engineering" by Thomas H. Lee
He compared it in quality with another very well known text, 'The Art of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill, which has no special value for RF work but is universally admired. It then mutated into a discussion of which edition of that text (and it's spinoffs) was the best to buy.
Does that clarify or have I got it wrong too ?
?
On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 06:32 PM, Donald Hellen wrote:
What I'd like to know is if the 2nd edition is worth getting. Is any edition worth getting?
In yet another thread mentioning "Art of Electronics" ... The forums are full of them ... and IME... people worked themselves (and their wallets) into a lather to get theses books... only to flip through them once or twice... and eventually send them to the Sally Anne.
IMO, they don't cut it anymore.? It's more about publishers, and authors, than art, or electronics. (If electronics is even an art... anymore... or even ever was.)
And AFAIR, AoE editions, don't even mention scattering parameters. (If that's what this thread is about anymore?)
For a better source on S parameters... IMO... Keysight's app-note, "Understanding the Fundamental Principles of Vector Network Analysis" ... while... I wouldn't say explicates the topic of S parameters... the note does...with the added context of the VNA...explain S parameters... and IMO... it does that cogently ... and also... it employs the "plain language" and "visual documents" styles, of modern technical writing...to good use. Something that many text books... especially historical ones... don't do well... at all.
If you want to learn about the electronics of electronics test equipment... both HP, and older Tektronix... service manuals, have good explanations, of how their test gear works... and are examples of design that works.
Many are free.
Not for reading after a few beers... or relaxing in the bath... when there's nothing interesting on YouTube... and hard work too... but worth it ... IMO of course.
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AoE was written for people who were designing instruments for their graduate school physics experiments.
When I have to get down in the weeds I reach for AoE. I read the 2nd all the way through, but I just read sections of the 3rd when I need a refresher or new device recommendations.
AoE is *not* a book for beginners.
Have Fun!
Reg
On Thursday, November 2, 2023 at 11:10:41 AM CDT, Roy Thistle <roy.thistle@...> wrote:
On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 06:32 PM, Donald Hellen wrote: What I'd like to know is if the 2nd edition is worth getting. Is any edition worth getting? In yet another thread mentioning "Art of Electronics" ... The forums are full of them ... and IME... people worked themselves (and their wallets) into a lather to get theses books... only to flip through them once or twice... and eventually send them to the Sally Anne. IMO, they don't cut it anymore.? It's more about publishers, and authors, than art, or electronics. (If electronics is even an art... anymore... or even ever was.) And AFAIR, AoE editions, don't even mention scattering parameters. (If that's what this thread is about anymore?) For a better source on S parameters... IMO... Keysight's app-note, "Understanding the Fundamental Principles of Vector Network Analysis" ... while... I wouldn't say explicates the topic of S parameters... the note does...with the added context of the VNA...explain S parameters... and IMO... it does that cogently ... and also... it employs the "plain language" and "visual documents" styles, of modern technical writing...to good use. Something that many text books... especially historical ones... don't do well... at all. If you want to learn about the electronics of electronics test equipment... both HP, and older Tektronix... service manuals, have good explanations, of how their test gear works... and are examples of design that works. Many are free. Not for reading after a few beers... or relaxing in the bath... when there's nothing interesting on YouTube... and hard work too... but worth it ... IMO of course.
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Didn't this whole sub-thread start with Reg jokily suggesting that
Tom's most excellent book should be considered as "The AoE of RF"?
See message /g/Test-Equipment-Design-Construction/message/1906
I found a copy of Tom's book for a
sensible price. It's a super read as you'd expect from Tom
(apologies for any further blushes caused).??
Somewhere on a shelf I have dusty
copies of The Art of Electronics 3rd edition and The X chapters,
but the only time I use them is for looking up some obscure old
bit of tech that I've forgotten about. Definitely not worth the
typical buy price.
I have an old PocketVNA which is a
proper two-bort bidirectional unit.? Not a pro instrument by any
means, but I don't have to mess about with coax relays or moving
cables. These days I find I use the LiteVNA 64 most of the time
simply because it's so darn convenient.? Of course if R&S or
Keysight fancy sending me a REAL VNA? for long-term eval, I'm
not going to refuse... In related news, I just bought a rather
nice HP sliding load to play with.
--
Neil
tel: +44 7555 212984
web: g4dbn.uk
email: neil@...
On 02/11/2023 16:10, Roy Thistle
wrote:
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Show quoted text
On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 06:32 PM, Donald Hellen wrote:
What I'd like to know is if the 2nd edition is worth
getting.
Is any edition worth getting?
In yet another thread mentioning "Art of Electronics" ... The
forums are full of them ... and IME... people worked themselves
(and their wallets) into a lather to get theses books... only to
flip through them once or twice... and eventually send them to
the Sally Anne.
|
This thread is getting more bizarre by the moment.
Reginald recommended
"Planar Microwave Engineering" by Thomas H. Lee
He compared it in quality with another very well known text, 'The Art of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill, which has no special value for RF work but is universally admired. It then mutated into a discussion of which edition of that text (and it's spinoffs) was the best to buy.
Does that clarify or have I got it wrong too ?
?
On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 06:32 PM, Donald Hellen wrote:
What I'd like to know is if the 2nd edition is worth getting.
Is any edition worth getting?
In yet another thread mentioning "Art of Electronics" ... The forums are full of them ... and IME... people worked themselves (and their wallets) into a lather to get theses books... only to flip through them once or twice... and eventually send them to the Sally Anne.
IMO, they don't cut it anymore.? It's more about publishers, and authors, than art, or electronics. (If electronics is even an art... anymore... or even ever was.)
And AFAIR, AoE editions, don't even mention scattering parameters. (If that's what this thread is about anymore?)
For a better source on S parameters... IMO... Keysight's app-note, "Understanding the Fundamental Principles of Vector Network Analysis" ... while... I wouldn't say explicates the topic of S parameters... the note does...with the added context of the VNA...explain S parameters... and IMO... it does that cogently ... and also... it employs the "plain language" and "visual documents" styles, of modern technical writing...to good use. Something that many text books... especially historical ones... don't do well... at all.
If you want to learn about the electronics of electronics test equipment... both HP, and older Tektronix... service manuals, have good explanations, of how their test gear works... and are examples of design that works.
Many are free.
Not for reading after a few beers... or relaxing in the bath... when there's nothing interesting on YouTube... and hard work too... but worth it ... IMO of course.
|
On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 06:32 PM, Donald Hellen wrote:
What I'd like to know is if the 2nd edition is worth getting.
Is any edition worth getting? In yet another thread mentioning "Art of Electronics" ... The forums are full of them ... and IME... people worked themselves (and their wallets) into a lather to get theses books... only to flip through them once or twice... and eventually send them to the Sally Anne. IMO, they don't cut it anymore.? It's more about publishers, and authors, than art, or electronics. (If electronics is even an art... anymore... or even ever was.) And AFAIR, AoE editions, don't even mention scattering parameters. (If that's what this thread is about anymore?) For a better source on S parameters... IMO... Keysight's app-note, "Understanding the Fundamental Principles of Vector Network Analysis" ... while... I wouldn't say explicates the topic of S parameters... the note does...with the added context of the VNA...explain S parameters... and IMO... it does that cogently ... and also... it employs the "plain language" and "visual documents" styles, of modern technical writing...to good use. Something that many text books... especially historical ones... don't do well... at all. If you want to learn about the electronics of electronics test equipment... both HP, and older Tektronix... service manuals, have good explanations, of how their test gear works... and are examples of design that works. Many are free. Not for reading after a few beers... or relaxing in the bath... when there's nothing interesting on YouTube... and hard work too... but worth it ... IMO of course.
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On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 at 14:44, Reginald Beardsley via <pulaskite= [email protected]> wrote:
It's a metaphor. Everyone is familiar with AoE, but not Lee's book which has a similar style and is *devoted to RF.
Yes, it is the best RF book I've ever read and I've got 30 ft of shelving which is *just* RF books.
I assume AoE is "art of electronics", but it would be better if you put a full title so people can find a book. Lots of people on here have not studied much electronics, so may not know of Horowitz and Hill. I don't know if you mean that, but I guess you do.
Someone suggested you put the ISBN of the book you actually mean.
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It's a metaphor. Everyone is familiar with AoE, but not Lee's book which has a similar style and is *devoted to RF.
Yes, it is the best RF book I've ever read and I've got 30 ft of shelving which is *just* RF books.
On Thursday, November 2, 2023 at 08:40:37 AM CDT, Roy Thistle <roy.thistle@...> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 06:00 PM, Jinxie wrote: I'm familiar with The Art of Electronics by Horrowitz & Hill but not
The AoE of RF Maybe he's talking about Lee's book? AoE is often short for 'Area of Effect.' Is Lee's book the best book on RF that Reg has ever read? Is the best book on RF I've ever read? Only Reg knows?
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On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 06:00 PM, Jinxie wrote:
I'm familiar with The Art of Electronics by Horrowitz & Hill but not
The AoE of RF
Maybe he's talking about Lee's book? AoE is often short for 'Area of Effect.' Is Lee's book the best book on RF that Reg has ever read? Is the best book on RF I've ever read? Only Reg knows?
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Donald, you might want to visit the author's website and see what is written about counterfeit copies. Also, there are samples from the X-chapters there.?. That address is also on the Horowitz Group site at??If you want to view a "library" copy then visit archive.org.
-Craig
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The 2nd is obsolete because so many parts are no longer available. Get the 3rd. You also want the X chapters.
If you can get a copy of the 2nd in nice condition for $5-10 it's worth having.
On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 08:32:24 PM CDT, Donald Hellen <donhellen@...> wrote:
On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 01:23 PM, si_emi_01 wrote: There are some ebay as well except for the one I just purchased. grin I see a 2nd edition and a 3rd edition available, in addition to one titled "T he Art of Electronics, the X Chapters," another one called the student manual for?T he Art of Electronics, another called the lab manual for?T he Art of Electronics, and maybe another one or two titles, all by the same authors. Also, an international edition.?
What I'd like to know is if the 2nd edition is worth getting. It's more readily available than the third, and for considerably less money, too. Or does the 3rd edition have more information, pages, etc.?
Donald KX8K
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On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 01:23 PM, si_emi_01 wrote:
There are some ebay as well except for the one I just purchased. grin
I see a 2nd edition and a 3rd edition available, in addition to one titled "T he Art of Electronics, the X Chapters," another one called the student manual for?T he Art of Electronics, another called the lab manual for?T he Art of Electronics, and maybe another one or two titles, all by the same authors. Also, an international edition.?
What I'd like to know is if the 2nd edition is worth getting. It's more readily available than the third, and for considerably less money, too. Or does the 3rd edition have more information, pages, etc.?
Donald KX8K
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On Sun, Oct 29, 2023 at 09:00 PM, Jinxie wrote:
I'm familiar with The Art of Electronics by Horrowitz & Hill but not
The AoE of RF. I'm not aware of that one and can't find it referenced on line do you have an ISBN for it, please?
Are you referring to the Art of Electronics, and if so, which book (author)? Is it Paul Horowitz and Winfield Hill? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Thanks!!!
Donald KX8K
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There are some ebay as well except for the one I just purchased. grin ? Ross ?
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From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of Reginald Beardsley via groups.io Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2023 6:27 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [Test Equipment Design & Construction] VNAs ? With apologies to Tom. For further details see:
"Planar Microwave Engineering"
Thomas H. Lee
The AoE of RF. Best book on radio ever written. I've got a 5000+ volume technical library
Danger: you will be an incurable RF junky if you read it all the way through.
It really should be subtitled: "The Joy of Radio" .
Sorry Tom for any discomfort caused, but I took a BA in literature before meandering off into the sciences. I'm a harsh critic of bad writing and a huge admirer of good writing. I suspect Don Lancaster had as much affect on you as he did on many others.
PME is an obscenely expensive book. The previous version is sold in the 3rd word for less. I have both and PME is worth the uptick if you can afford it.
Have Fun!
Reg On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 03:53:37 PM CDT, Tom Lee <tomlee@...> wrote: S-parameters are not limited to passive networks.
When making measurements on active devices, you just have to take more care to supply bias in a way that doesn't corrupt your measurement, and to observe proper limits on drive amplitudes to keep the active devices in the linear region. But "Port 1" and "Port 2" assignments are arbitrary. So, as Reginald says, just reverse the ports manually and you'll be able to measure S22 and S12 (again, while also making sure that the DUT is properly powered up and driven with appropriate-magnitude signals).
-- Cheers,
Tom -- Prof. Thomas H. LeeFaculty Co-Director, SystemX AllianceDirector, Stanford-Samsung Research InitiativeAllen Ctr., Rm. 205420 Via Palou MallStanford UniversityStanford, CA 94305-4070 On 10/29/2023 11:32 AM, Jinxie wrote: OK, but this only works for passive DUTs, one assumes?
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Reginald,
I'm familiar with The Art of Electronics by Horrowitz & Hill but not
The AoE of RF. I'm not aware of that one and can't find it referenced on line do you have an ISBN for it, please?
|
With apologies to Tom. For further details see:
"Planar Microwave Engineering"
Thomas H. Lee
The AoE of RF. Best book on radio ever written. I've got a 5000+ volume technical library
Danger: you will be an incurable RF junky if you read it all the way through.
It really should be subtitled: "The Joy of Radio" .
Sorry Tom for any discomfort caused, but I took a BA in literature before meandering off into the sciences. I'm a harsh critic of bad writing and a huge admirer of good writing. I suspect Don Lancaster had as much affect on you as he did on many others.
PME is an obscenely expensive book. The previous version is sold in the 3rd word for less. I have both and PME is worth the uptick if you can afford it.
Have Fun!
Reg
On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 03:53:37 PM CDT, Tom Lee <tomlee@...> wrote:
S-parameters are not limited to passive networks. When making measurements on active devices, you just have to take more care to supply bias in a way that doesn't corrupt your measurement, and to observe proper limits on drive amplitudes to keep the active devices in the linear region. But "Port 1" and "Port 2" assignments are arbitrary. So, as Reginald says, just reverse the ports manually and you'll be able to measure S22 and S12 (again, while also making sure that the DUT is properly powered up and driven with appropriate-magnitude signals). -- Cheers, Tom -- Prof. Thomas H. LeeFaculty Co-Director, SystemX AllianceDirector, Stanford-Samsung Research InitiativeAllen Ctr., Rm. 205420 Via Palou MallStanford UniversityStanford, CA 94305-4070 On 10/29/2023 11:32 AM, Jinxie wrote:
OK, but this only works for passive DUTs, one assumes?
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Re: Marconi Q meter exciter - update
That's terrific, I'm most impressed! I have been diverted by other projects but will have to get on with my efforts do make an exciter without modifying the TF1245A
Well done!
Morris VK3DOC
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As for "S22 (...) is a major source of instability", maybe you meant S12, the (normally undesired) feedback. Speaking of amplifying quadrupoles.
S22 has to do with the output impedance or admittance, which is in parallel with the load.
Anyway, to determine how close you are to instability, all four Ss plus the source and load impedances must be taken into account, even outside the intended working band.
Daniel Perez LW1ECP
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S-parameters are not limited to passive networks.
When making measurements on active devices, you just have to take
more care to supply bias in a way that doesn't corrupt your
measurement, and to observe proper limits on drive amplitudes to
keep the active devices in the linear region. But "Port 1" and "Port
2" assignments are arbitrary. So, as Reginald says, just reverse the
ports manually and you'll be able to measure S22 and S12 (again,
while also making sure that the DUT is properly powered up and
driven with appropriate-magnitude signals).
-- Cheers,
Tom
--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Faculty Co-Director, SystemX Alliance
Director, Stanford-Samsung Research Initiative
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
420 Via Palou Mall
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
On 10/29/2023 11:32 AM, Jinxie wrote:
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OK, but this only works for passive DUTs, one assumes?
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Hi:
Prior to S-parameters they used Y and Z parameters where the
terminations were open or shorts which lead to oscillations when
testing active components.
The key reason for the adoption of S-parameters was that the 50 Ohm
load was less likely to cause oscillations than an open or short.
When testing things with connectors that are designed to work in 50
Ohm systems there's no problem connecting an amplifier backwards.
--
Have Fun,
Brooke Clarke, N6GCE
axioms:
1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works.
2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.
-------- Original Message --------
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Look at the definitions of the 4 S parameters
S22 is the reflection of signal reflected by the load. That is a
major source of instability.
On Sunday, October 29, 2023 at 01:32:44 PM CDT, Jinxie
<paul666@...> wrote:
OK, but this only works for passive DUTs,
one assumes? If you're testing an RF amplifier - for
example - then it's not going to work, is it?
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Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd
Jinxie
Daniel Ricardo Perez