¿ªÔÆÌåÓý


Re: Does anyone have any experience with these log detectors?

 

In the past I tried to use log detectors but if you want to know power and frequency and modulation, using a tinySA Basic with appropriate external attenuation seems a lot simpler

Displaying frequency and power


Displaying 1kHz 50% depth Am modulation



Measuring 1 kHz FM modulation with 5kHz deviation


But I admit that having a sufficiently big hammer makes everything look like a nail, even those objects with a helical around the shaft and a slit in the top.


Re: Does anyone have any experience with these log detectors?

 

Mike,

I'd been eyeing various log detector devices for some time. This one had an interface and was cheap, so I bought it. Not so sure of the accuracy. All 4 of my tinySAs produce around -7 dBm according to the power meter give or take a 2-3 dBm offset.

It reports the 0 dBm 50 MHz calibration output of my 438A as -1.2 dBm. It really isn't very linear above -10 dBm resulting in an effective range of -5 to -55 dBm at best.

It came with no instructions and I have no clue why changing the frequency changes the level.


Have Fun!
Reg


On Friday, December 15, 2023 at 04:27:23 PM CST, N2MS <mstangelo@...> wrote:


Reg,

When the weather is warm I do lots of portable operation as well as sailing on a friend's boat. I am looking for a small portable power meter to measure the output of FM and SSB transceivers. Most of these power meters measure average power but I cannot find one that specifies measuring peak power. Do you have a SSB transceiver or transmitter to measure? If so, this would be my test case.

The power range is from 1 watt to 150 watts. The frequency range is from 1 to 450 MHz. I have many attenuators, dummy loads and a couple of directional couplers so I can attenuate the signal to accommodate the meter input range.

I use a NanaVNA-F to check out antennas and transmission lines but I cannot find one of these portable meters which read peak as well as average power.

Mike N2MS


> On 12/15/2023 1:17 PM EST Reginald Beardsley via groups.io <pulaskite@...> wrote:
>
>
> Mike,
>
> Lord, I don't know. I just got it and am investigating. Do you have test cases to propose? With the chipping markings sanded off it's a puzzle what chip it's using. I'm guessing an HMC602 from the specs given.
>
> At the $32.32 price with free shipping I think it's an excellent start to a budget power meter. Add 60 dB of JFW rotary attenuation and use the tinySA as your power reference at -10 dBm.
>






Re: Does anyone have any experience with these log detectors?

 

Reg,

When the weather is warm I do lots of portable operation as well as sailing on a friend's boat. I am looking for a small portable power meter to measure the output of FM and SSB transceivers. Most of these power meters measure average power but I cannot find one that specifies measuring peak power. Do you have a SSB transceiver or transmitter to measure? If so, this would be my test case.

The power range is from 1 watt to 150 watts. The frequency range is from 1 to 450 MHz. I have many attenuators, dummy loads and a couple of directional couplers so I can attenuate the signal to accommodate the meter input range.

I use a NanaVNA-F to check out antennas and transmission lines but I cannot find one of these portable meters which read peak as well as average power.

Mike N2MS

On 12/15/2023 1:17 PM EST Reginald Beardsley via groups.io <pulaskite@...> wrote:


Mike,

Lord, I don't know. I just got it and am investigating. Do you have test cases to propose? With the chipping markings sanded off it's a puzzle what chip it's using. I'm guessing an HMC602 from the specs given.

At the $32.32 price with free shipping I think it's an excellent start to a budget power meter. Add 60 dB of JFW rotary attenuation and use the tinySA as your power reference at -10 dBm.


Re: Does anyone have any experience with these log detectors?

 

On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 07:42 AM, N2MS wrote:
Does this power meter measure peak power
Supposing the log amp chip they are using can sample fast enough, and a fast enough ADC too... one could? do it in software... by looking for the peak in the samples.
I can't remember; but, if there is some sort of hardware compression... that would help cover a large dynamic range.
It might work okay? for repetitive stable peaks, over a fairly large number of samples.?


Re: Does anyone have any experience with these log detectors?

 

On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 08:01 AM, Sam Reaves wrote:
Wasn't this reviewed or one similar on The Signal Path?
Nope ... that one was about 2.5X more expensive... had a fairly solid shielding box (similar to those cheap(er) microwave components) and was a some RF conditioning (on the front end) followed by an attenuator chip, followed by a AD8317 logarithmic detector... feeding a microcontroller for ADC.
Better than what passes for a RF 'power meter' that came as an accessory for your Kenwood; but, useless (or at least not very useful) for any accurate or precise power measurements, where a broad bandwidth, and large dynamic range is required.
In the above regard... and? IMO... the one Reg has is a poorer build quality... is probably fair close to the same performance... but perhaps has more 'blinkenlites' built into the firmware/software.
By the way... if one is into "Trust, but verify" ... skepticism may wax... and enthusiasm wane.??


Re: Does anyone have any experience with these log detectors?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Thank you

?

I will be happy to answer any questions.

?

Kind regard

?

Matthias

?

?

?

Von: [email protected] <[email protected]> Im Auftrag von Reginald Beardsley via groups.io
Gesendet: Freitag, 15. Dezember 2023 20:06
An: [email protected]
Betreff: Re: [Test Equipment Design & Construction] Does anyone have any experience with these log detectors?

?

Very impressive!

On Friday, December 15, 2023 at 12:43:45 PM CST, Matthias <matthias.bopp@...> wrote:

?

?

Hello,

?

not the same as the Chinese version but maybe of interest for some of you:

?

this summer a friend of mine (Michael DK1MI) and me developed a remote VSWR & power meter.

?

You can find the English description here:

?

?

Kind regards

?

Matthias

?

?


Re: Does anyone have any experience with these log detectors?

 

Very impressive!


On Friday, December 15, 2023 at 12:43:45 PM CST, Matthias <matthias.bopp@...> wrote:


Hello,

?

not the same as the Chinese version but maybe of interest for some of you:

?

this summer a friend of mine (Michael DK1MI) and me developed a remote VSWR & power meter.

?

You can find the English description here:

?

?

Kind regards

?

Matthias

?

?


Re: Does anyone have any experience with these log detectors?

 

Tried that


On Friday, December 15, 2023 at 12:25:32 PM CST, Leon Robinson <leon-robinson@...> wrote:


Reg,

Try a SMALL drop of water or light oil on the chip, sometimes it will make the marks visible.

Leon Robinson ?? K5JLR

Political Correctness is a Political Disease.

Politicians and Diapers should be changed
often and for the same reasons.


On Friday, December 15, 2023 at 12:17:11 PM CST, Reginald Beardsley via groups.io <pulaskite@...> wrote:


Mike,

Lord, I don't know. I just got it and am investigating. Do you have test cases to propose? With the chipping markings sanded off it's a puzzle what chip it's using. I'm guessing an HMC602 from the specs given.

At the $32.32 price with free shipping I think it's an excellent start to a budget power meter. Add 60 dB of JFW rotary attenuation and use the tinySA as your power reference at -10 dBm.

Peregrine makes 0.5 and 0.25 dB step 31 dB attenuators. Add a couple of those and a 10 W 30 dB power attenuator, frequency counter and UI and you should be all set. Caveat emptor, programming required. Would make a cool group project.

Bottom line. It's quite usable with appropriate technique as is. However, it's got much more potential than that.

As this list is about T&M design and construction, I thought I should call it out as having significant benefit to a budget RF lab with some development work.

Have Fun!
Reg
On Friday, December 15, 2023 at 09:42:26 AM CST, N2MS <mstangelo@...> wrote:


Reg,

Thanks for the feedback. Does this power meter measure peak power or does it just measure average or RMS power? I'm looking for a portable instrument to measure the PEP power from my QRP SSB rigs.

73, Mike N2MS

> On 12/14/2023 11:49 PM EST Reginald Beardsley via groups.io <pulaskite@...> wrote:
>
>?
> Just using the 8648C and a pair of JFW attenuators as reference, it appears to have an acceptably accurate dynamic range of 0 to -56 dBm? The FW is terrible and doesn't even? debounce the keys!? But it does work decently.? I suspect that with good FW it would be an excellent piece of lab kit. Annoyingly, all the chips have been sanded.
>
> Response is highly variable with frequency.? But I consistently found 56 dB of dynamic range within the limits of the 8648C after adjusting the offset and trying the step attenuators.
>
> The big question is how to calibrate it on a hobby budget.? With the addition of a couple of Peregrine attenuators? and a frequency counter it could look up a correction factor and be a very useful lab instrument.
>
> However, I've never checked the power output accuracy of the 8648C so the attached photos might be more accurate. Or not.? However, a 2nd tinySA gave the same result.? For $33 I'm impressed.
>
> Have Fun!
> Reg






Re: Does anyone have any experience with these log detectors?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Hello,

?

not the same as the Chinese version but maybe of interest for some of you:

?

this summer a friend of mine (Michael DK1MI) and me developed a remote VSWR & power meter.

?

You can find the English description here:

?

?

Kind regards

?

Matthias

?

?


Re: Does anyone have any experience with these log detectors?

 

Reg,

Try a SMALL drop of water or light oil on the chip, sometimes it will make the marks visible.

Leon Robinson ?? K5JLR

Political Correctness is a Political Disease.

Politicians and Diapers should be changed
often and for the same reasons.


On Friday, December 15, 2023 at 12:17:11 PM CST, Reginald Beardsley via groups.io <pulaskite@...> wrote:


Mike,

Lord, I don't know. I just got it and am investigating. Do you have test cases to propose? With the chipping markings sanded off it's a puzzle what chip it's using. I'm guessing an HMC602 from the specs given.

At the $32.32 price with free shipping I think it's an excellent start to a budget power meter. Add 60 dB of JFW rotary attenuation and use the tinySA as your power reference at -10 dBm.

Peregrine makes 0.5 and 0.25 dB step 31 dB attenuators. Add a couple of those and a 10 W 30 dB power attenuator, frequency counter and UI and you should be all set. Caveat emptor, programming required. Would make a cool group project.

Bottom line. It's quite usable with appropriate technique as is. However, it's got much more potential than that.

As this list is about T&M design and construction, I thought I should call it out as having significant benefit to a budget RF lab with some development work.

Have Fun!
Reg
On Friday, December 15, 2023 at 09:42:26 AM CST, N2MS <mstangelo@...> wrote:


Reg,

Thanks for the feedback. Does this power meter measure peak power or does it just measure average or RMS power? I'm looking for a portable instrument to measure the PEP power from my QRP SSB rigs.

73, Mike N2MS

> On 12/14/2023 11:49 PM EST Reginald Beardsley via groups.io <pulaskite@...> wrote:
>
>?
> Just using the 8648C and a pair of JFW attenuators as reference, it appears to have an acceptably accurate dynamic range of 0 to -56 dBm? The FW is terrible and doesn't even? debounce the keys!? But it does work decently.? I suspect that with good FW it would be an excellent piece of lab kit. Annoyingly, all the chips have been sanded.
>
> Response is highly variable with frequency.? But I consistently found 56 dB of dynamic range within the limits of the 8648C after adjusting the offset and trying the step attenuators.
>
> The big question is how to calibrate it on a hobby budget.? With the addition of a couple of Peregrine attenuators? and a frequency counter it could look up a correction factor and be a very useful lab instrument.
>
> However, I've never checked the power output accuracy of the 8648C so the attached photos might be more accurate. Or not.? However, a 2nd tinySA gave the same result.? For $33 I'm impressed.
>
> Have Fun!
> Reg






Re: Does anyone have any experience with these log detectors?

 

Mike,

Lord, I don't know. I just got it and am investigating. Do you have test cases to propose? With the chipping markings sanded off it's a puzzle what chip it's using. I'm guessing an HMC602 from the specs given.

At the $32.32 price with free shipping I think it's an excellent start to a budget power meter. Add 60 dB of JFW rotary attenuation and use the tinySA as your power reference at -10 dBm.

Peregrine makes 0.5 and 0.25 dB step 31 dB attenuators. Add a couple of those and a 10 W 30 dB power attenuator, frequency counter and UI and you should be all set. Caveat emptor, programming required. Would make a cool group project.

Bottom line. It's quite usable with appropriate technique as is. However, it's got much more potential than that.

As this list is about T&M design and construction, I thought I should call it out as having significant benefit to a budget RF lab with some development work.

Have Fun!
Reg
On Friday, December 15, 2023 at 09:42:26 AM CST, N2MS <mstangelo@...> wrote:


Reg,

Thanks for the feedback. Does this power meter measure peak power or does it just measure average or RMS power? I'm looking for a portable instrument to measure the PEP power from my QRP SSB rigs.

73, Mike N2MS

> On 12/14/2023 11:49 PM EST Reginald Beardsley via groups.io <pulaskite@...> wrote:
>
>?
> Just using the 8648C and a pair of JFW attenuators as reference, it appears to have an acceptably accurate dynamic range of 0 to -56 dBm? The FW is terrible and doesn't even? debounce the keys!? But it does work decently.? I suspect that with good FW it would be an excellent piece of lab kit. Annoyingly, all the chips have been sanded.
>
> Response is highly variable with frequency.? But I consistently found 56 dB of dynamic range within the limits of the 8648C after adjusting the offset and trying the step attenuators.
>
> The big question is how to calibrate it on a hobby budget.? With the addition of a couple of Peregrine attenuators? and a frequency counter it could look up a correction factor and be a very useful lab instrument.
>
> However, I've never checked the power output accuracy of the 8648C so the attached photos might be more accurate. Or not.? However, a 2nd tinySA gave the same result.? For $33 I'm impressed.
>
> Have Fun!
> Reg






Re: Does anyone have any experience with these log detectors?

 


This is a similar budget version, bare boards and different chip. Thanks for the link. I think there's a lot of potential in a well designed power meter with an integral 0.25 dB step attenuator and a frequency counter. Fairly simple group project for 3-4 people.

I plan to box it with LiPo in an extruded case as part of my RF module set. I got the idea for self powering from the TQP3M9037-LNA units from China.
On Friday, December 15, 2023 at 10:01:39 AM CST, Sam Reaves <sam.reaves@...> wrote:


Wasn't this reviewed or one similar on The Signal Path?



Sam


Re: Does anyone have any experience with these log detectors?

 

Wasn't this reviewed or one similar on The Signal Path?



Sam


Re: Does anyone have any experience with these log detectors?

 

Reg,

Thanks for the feedback. Does this power meter measure peak power or does it just measure average or RMS power? I'm looking for a portable instrument to measure the PEP power from my QRP SSB rigs.

73, Mike N2MS

On 12/14/2023 11:49 PM EST Reginald Beardsley via groups.io <pulaskite@...> wrote:


Just using the 8648C and a pair of JFW attenuators as reference, it appears to have an acceptably accurate dynamic range of 0 to -56 dBm The FW is terrible and doesn't even debounce the keys! But it does work decently. I suspect that with good FW it would be an excellent piece of lab kit. Annoyingly, all the chips have been sanded.

Response is highly variable with frequency. But I consistently found 56 dB of dynamic range within the limits of the 8648C after adjusting the offset and trying the step attenuators.

The big question is how to calibrate it on a hobby budget. With the addition of a couple of Peregrine attenuators and a frequency counter it could look up a correction factor and be a very useful lab instrument.

However, I've never checked the power output accuracy of the 8648C so the attached photos might be more accurate. Or not. However, a 2nd tinySA gave the same result. For $33 I'm impressed.

Have Fun!
Reg


Re: Does anyone have any experience with these log detectors?

 

Just using the 8648C and a pair of JFW attenuators as reference, it appears to have an acceptably accurate dynamic range of 0 to -56 dBm The FW is terrible and doesn't even debounce the keys! But it does work decently. I suspect that with good FW it would be an excellent piece of lab kit. Annoyingly, all the chips have been sanded.

Response is highly variable with frequency. But I consistently found 56 dB of dynamic range within the limits of the 8648C after adjusting the offset and trying the step attenuators.

The big question is how to calibrate it on a hobby budget. With the addition of a couple of Peregrine attenuators and a frequency counter it could look up a correction factor and be a very useful lab instrument.

However, I've never checked the power output accuracy of the 8648C so the attached photos might be more accurate. Or not. However, a 2nd tinySA gave the same result. For $33 I'm impressed.

Have Fun!
Reg


Does anyone have any experience with these log detectors?

 



The actual unit is around $33 USD. Typical misleading landing pages. Rather annoyed they don't say what chip, but it's obvious from the BW and range. I just can't remember.

I just received one I bought for evaluation. I have ready to hand an 8648C and 438A with appropriate sensors. And an 8340B if it looks promising. I have an ample supply of step attenuators of varying resolution and unknown accuracy. JFWs being my favorites for general convenience.

Initial thought is to calibrate a splitter by reversal and then measure a series of frequencies and levels showing the 8348C, 438A and AD???? eval board values.

Any suggestions of more devious tests?

Have Fun!
Reg.


Re: Phase Noise "standard"

 

Thanks for some helpful pointers.?

I should have been maybe been clearer. It's a dual PLL based system which I ultimately want to test (to help avoid the reference source noise level being the limiting factor), so definitely need a carrier or it won't lock (and unlocked the transfer function will look very different - even if the loop lock finding circuits are turned off). To make life simpler I'm starting with only one loop in use (ignoring the second mixer).

I'm trying to measure offsets -100dBc down at 10Hz offset with a noise floor below -180dBc. At such close offsets well within the PLL loop bandwdith and there is a need to compensate for the PLL closed loop transfer function (which is measured by injecting band limited white noise into the loop which is coming from a direct digital generator which sounds similar to the E5500). But reading that documentaion has indeed been useful.? I'm familiar with the 3048 code as the HP-BASIC program is readily available (and very well structured and pretty easy to follow apart from two mysteries a) the routine Hp3561_range - which contains machine code for the 3561 to change the range preserving phase relationships which is fine, but why does this matter when all the measurements are in scalar network analyer mode (magnitude ratios) and b) why are there poles in the open loop response at 800kHz and 1.2MHz.

In further hunting I found this paper which feels useful


Alan


Re: Phase Noise "standard"

 

Would adding a Schmidt trigger gate in series with a clock improve phase noise?


On Sun, Dec 3, 2023, 9:31?AM Erik Kaashoek <erik@...> wrote:
Some DDS SG will allow phase modulation with white noise.


Re: Very low cost 20 bit 125 MSa/s 64kB AWG

 

Just to add to this: Prop II's GPIO DACs are about as fast as the digital CMOS process allows. The full power bandwidth is well beyond 100MHz. They are screamers and plenty good for high resolution analog VGA output. Also good enough for 100BASE-T Ethernet PHY output straight from GPIO into the transformers, as a proof of concept - not that you'd want to do it that way. But it makes it easy to generate margining waveforms for testing in-circuit PHYs.

- Kuba

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 1:19?PM Kuba Sunderland-Ober <kuba@...> wrote:
Possibly the cheapest way of doing this is using Parallax Propeller II. It has excellent 8-bit DACs - literally one per GPIO pin. These DACs have a fixed low impedance and are purely resistive - a couple hundred ohms IIRC. They have a voltage output that is much easier to deal with compared to R-2R DACs that have variable impedance and thus need a virtual ground and a transimpedance stage.

The output of three DACs is combined into a higher resolution output using just three resistors, with some overlap between each DAC so that no values are missing.

With a slow and affordable external 24-bit ADC, the transfer function of the contribution of each of three DACs to the output is determined and stored in a lookup table in external RAM (HyperRAM on the PropII devkit).

When the ARB waveform is available, it is converted into 3-byte DAC values using the lookup table. These values fit comfortably in the internal hub RAM of PropII.

Finally, the smart pin functionality of PropII as well as hub-to-spoke streaming is used to stream the ARB waveform to the DACs repeatedly. This is friction-free, since PropII was designed with HDMI and VGA output in mind. It's super simple.

As everything warms up, periodic recalibration can be done using said 24-bit ADC. Assuming say 10 samples per second, it takes just over a minute to get the complete calibration table measured out. Instead, center/endpoint readings can be taken - all in under 1 second - to rescale the lookup table as resistances drift.

I've done this and it works surprisingly well for how cheap it is ($40 in parts sans UI).

There is a bit of a devil in the details when it comes to choosing which three pins to use - ultimately, several adjacent four-pin groups can be measured and the one that gives the lowest THD and IMD can be selected, using a bed of nails external multiplexer. But even a fixed pin assignment is pretty good. I can only measure THD down to 0.01% in audio band, and the 10kHz sine has distortion below my ability to measure. I have not measured the distortion at higher frequencies, so that's where things may get "interesting". But the building blocks are all quite docile, so it at least on paper has a chance of being pretty good - probably much better than any discrete R-2R solution that's not extraordinarily expensive.

Cheers, Kuba


On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 4:21?AM Gavin Watkins via <gavin_watkins=[email protected]> wrote:
Another challenge with R-2R DACs that I have encountered is slew rate. There will be stray capacitance on the board. For high slew rate, you want a large current to flow through the resistors, but are of course limited by the output current of the microcontroller etc to about 20mA. The resistors in the network limit this and the result is a restricted slew rate. I encountered this with a 12-bit R-2R DAC in a ramp generator where of course you want a fast drop after the ramp up. I had to add a transistor to switch in and help sink the current across any stray capacitance.


Re: Very low cost 20 bit 125 MSa/s 64kB AWG

 

Possibly the cheapest way of doing this is using Parallax Propeller II. It has excellent 8-bit DACs - literally one per GPIO pin. These DACs have a fixed low impedance and are purely resistive - a couple hundred ohms IIRC. They have a voltage output that is much easier to deal with compared to R-2R DACs that have variable impedance and thus need a virtual ground and a transimpedance stage.

The output of three DACs is combined into a higher resolution output using just three resistors, with some overlap between each DAC so that no values are missing.

With a slow and affordable external 24-bit ADC, the transfer function of the contribution of each of three DACs to the output is determined and stored in a lookup table in external RAM (HyperRAM on the PropII devkit).

When the ARB waveform is available, it is converted into 3-byte DAC values using the lookup table. These values fit comfortably in the internal hub RAM of PropII.

Finally, the smart pin functionality of PropII as well as hub-to-spoke streaming is used to stream the ARB waveform to the DACs repeatedly. This is friction-free, since PropII was designed with HDMI and VGA output in mind. It's super simple.

As everything warms up, periodic recalibration can be done using said 24-bit ADC. Assuming say 10 samples per second, it takes just over a minute to get the complete calibration table measured out. Instead, center/endpoint readings can be taken - all in under 1 second - to rescale the lookup table as resistances drift.

I've done this and it works surprisingly well for how cheap it is ($40 in parts sans UI).

There is a bit of a devil in the details when it comes to choosing which three pins to use - ultimately, several adjacent four-pin groups can be measured and the one that gives the lowest THD and IMD can be selected, using a bed of nails external multiplexer. But even a fixed pin assignment is pretty good. I can only measure THD down to 0.01% in audio band, and the 10kHz sine has distortion below my ability to measure. I have not measured the distortion at higher frequencies, so that's where things may get "interesting". But the building blocks are all quite docile, so it at least on paper has a chance of being pretty good - probably much better than any discrete R-2R solution that's not extraordinarily expensive.

Cheers, Kuba


On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 4:21?AM Gavin Watkins via <gavin_watkins=[email protected]> wrote:
Another challenge with R-2R DACs that I have encountered is slew rate. There will be stray capacitance on the board. For high slew rate, you want a large current to flow through the resistors, but are of course limited by the output current of the microcontroller etc to about 20mA. The resistors in the network limit this and the result is a restricted slew rate. I encountered this with a 12-bit R-2R DAC in a ramp generator where of course you want a fast drop after the ramp up. I had to add a transistor to switch in and help sink the current across any stray capacitance.