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ago Re: Navy Electricity and Electronic Training Series
Richard in NC
Before I retired federal civil service (Naval Station Norfolk) 2 years ago, I found out that there were none of the NEETS series issued in print anymore, and I also attempted to go to Langley AFB to see if the base ESO had any copies of AFSC PMEL courses that I took many years ago. They don't print them anymore and would not say if they were taught anymore. Even if they had given me access or digital copies I would have printed them out. All have great information in them. If you run into any of them, there is a lot of stuff to learn.?
73 Richard W4MCD? |
Re: Navy Electricity and Electronic Training Series
开云体育Hi, ? AFSC Design Handbook 1-4 Electromagnetic Compatibility – among others was a good starting point for EMI. ? Ross ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Steve Lindberg
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2023 7:39 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Test Equipment Design & Construction] Navy Electricity and Electronic Training Series ? Good stuff. I have turned on a dozen techs to this. Now if could find USAF training manuals. I stupidly left them in a closet when moving. About 7 foot wide stack. ? Get |
Re: Added album Ed's Q meter transformer
#photo-notice
Hi Morris,
I'm not exactly sure what core I'm using, since it was an unknown junk box item. After some measurements and using it for the project, I got more figured out and surmised that it's nearly equivalent to a T130-6. Looking on line, plenty show up, in the range of a few dollars. The specs are readily available too. But, I wouldn't necessarily recommend this particular one - I chose it because it was there, and for mechanical reasons, and the electric/magnetic character seemed to be OK for the situation. There are lots of materials and sizes available, so you can optimize for your project. The main thing to remember is that the core loss goes up dramatically with flux density and frequency, so you can't use a power conversion (like iron or permalloy powder) core at high levels for RF. The saving grace is that for a fixed voltage, the flux goes down with frequency, and if you go with low permeability, the core losses go down, in exchange for needing more turns (higher winding loss and capacitance) for a given inductance. I just did a quick estimate on my transformer, and presuming no calculating errors, 1 Vrms on the primary at 1 MHz is less than half a gauss peak. Anyway, there are all sorts of trade-offs, and the cool thing is that you can do almost anything with almost any core, with the right choices. One thing to not skimp on though, is winding fill. If you're picturing like a 10 turns to 1, how are you going to fill the inside surface? Maybe 100 to 10 or somewhere between will do better. A bigger core gives more options. My approach for this project is to go big in size, and small in permeability, to transfer decent power over wide bandwidth. I don't even know how this thing will work out, and can't until I build it and run it, but I'm pretty confident it will be good. I looked at this Marconi TF245 "circuit magnifier" thing a couple weeks ago out of curiosity, but forgot the details, so looked again just now. I also found the manual for the lower frequency range power oscillator. It looks like you need half a volt rms on half an ohm pure resistive load, so half a watt. If you make a matching transformer, you'll still need to provide at least that power, so +27 dBm, without any padding or compensation for other losses, so figure maybe a full 30 dBm broadband amplifier to ultimately get the "proper" source voltage. The problem is that resistive divider burning most of the power all the time. However, it is a nice resistor load that should be very flat. Also note that the TF1246 oscillator could not do it in one continuous band - I think there are four turret-switched oscillator circuits using the common power tube and supplies. Each band has its own transformer/coil/circuitry deal. It may be pretty tricky to get full coverage with one amplifier and transformer, so having some band switching is an option too. Later, I'll talk some about the amplifier I'm contemplating. Ed |
Re: Navy Electricity and Electronic Training Series
I neer saw the manuals for my MOS I tested out of the electronics school, while still in Basic, at Ft. Knox. On Mon, Feb 6, 2023 at 9:39 PM Steve Lindberg <steve_tech@...> wrote:
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Re: Navy Electricity and Electronic Training Series
开云体育Good stuff. I have turned on a dozen techs to this. Now if could find USAF training manuals. I stupidly left them in a closet when moving. About 7 foot wide stack.
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Re: Added album Ed's Q meter transformer
#photo-notice
Hi Ed,
This is a very interesting topic and thanks very much for posting details of your experiences. I was wondering what you used for a core? I am trying to make an exciter for my Marconi Q meter and need to make a wideband transformer to provide the 50 KHz -50 MHz RF to a 0.5 ohm load. Finding a suitable core is not easy. The cheap ones from my local electronics emporium give out at? 2 MHz. Do you kno wof any affordable sources? 73, Morris VK3DOC |
Re: Added album Ed's Q meter transformer
#photo-notice
Ed Thank you for?putting up the pictures. ?It's interesting to see how others have solved the transformer problem.? I put up my pictures a few weeks ago when all the Activity on Q meter design was being published, but I have since stalled the project due to other commitments. Will be back on track soon though. ?Please keep us all posted as you progress with your unit. ? It all seems very esoteric, but to many of us the design and realisation are very interesting. 73 Pete G4GJL On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 3:09 AM Ed Breya via <edbreya=[email protected]> wrote: I put up some pictures of the transformer assembly innards. The planned tight winding and mounting of a fairly big toroid worked out nicely. I found in the junk dept a brass gear piece that could be used as the bushing with minor alteration. I really wanted a flange, but couldn't find the right sort of piece. I drilled out the gear to 3/4" so that the post could go through and be firmly held inside by the right layer thickness of fish paper. |
Re: Added album Ed's Q meter transformer
#photo-notice
I put up some pictures of the transformer assembly innards. The planned tight winding and mounting of a fairly big toroid worked out nicely. I found in the junk dept a brass gear piece that could be used as the bushing with minor alteration. I really wanted a flange, but couldn't find the right sort of piece. I drilled out the gear to 3/4" so that the post could go through and be firmly held inside by the right layer thickness of fish paper.
"Parts 1" shows the basic pieces. The transformer is shown setting on the "toroid helper," which is an old soldering iron handle, for flattening and rolling the relatively heavy wire turns against the inside surface. The assembly would not have been possible without this operation. I had to flatten and roll each and every turn as it was put on - very tedious. The source output terminal is the red binding post, screwed into the resonator post, which is solid copper at the top end first 1/2 inch or so. The rest is actually a hollow brass tube brazed to the top. Two different thicknesses of fish paper added up about right for a snug fit. On the right is a resonator. I had to cut off about 3/8" from the tubing end. "Parts 2" is another view, showing some detail. The transformer's main winding is around 69 turns +/-1, until I do a final count. The other winding is the single-turn anti-phase one, for holder capacitance neutralization capability I want for possible crystal testing features. It's tucked in between the last two turns of the cold end of the main winding. You can see the hollow tube structure of the resonator, and on the unit, a 10-32 spacer inside, threaded to the tip threads of the binding post. The spacer helps to lock the post in, and provides for a compression screw at the end to pinch the mid-point foil against the tube edge, hopefully eliminating the need to solder it (TBD). "Complete unit 1" shows the assembly with transformer mounted, and the end screw and washer foil clamp. The transformer is a very tight fit, and for protection of the wire, there will be a 1 or 2 mil layer of Kapton film around the post. That's all that can practically fit! You have to imagine how it would look when finally all wrapped in foil. Also, note the solder lug under the binding post. That's for signal monitoring and level detecting, depending on how things turn out. For my purposes, it will be connected to a 50 ohm resistor and cable to a BNC port, to measure with the SA. "Complete unit 2" is a closeup side view. When everything is finally aligned, the three screws in the bushing side are tightened, compressing the fish paper against the post, so it stays put with respect to the bushing, against axial force and torque from working the binding post. The bushing will be the electrical and mechanical mount into the ground plane (method TBD), so the back end of the transformer won't need support. Note the gap between the bushing and the transformer. That's the tricky part, which will be to solder the bushing face perpendicular to a sheet of Cu foil, then slice out a hole from the other side of the foil, nice and clean. Then it's assembled with the foil tight against the transformer face, and wrapped all around, tightly conforming to the outside (and accommodating the wiring), and finally clamped (or soldered) to the back end of the post as mentioned above. The primary inductance ended up at about 45.2 uH, and wire R about 120 milliohms. With better L readings, I've revised my A sub L estimate to a little below 10 nH, so it turns out the core seems to be very close to the T130-6, at 9.6 nH. That's all for now. Enjoy. Ed |
4 photos uploaded
#photo-notice
Group Notification
The following photos have been uploaded to the Ed's Q meter transformer album of the [email protected] group. By: Ed Breya <edbreya@...> |
Added album Ed's Q meter transformer
#photo-notice
Group Notification
Ed Breya <edbreya@...> added the album Ed's Q meter transformer: first round build |
Re: Tests on HP 4342A Q Meter and more
Hi,
I did further simulations and calculations on the idea of measuring the voltage ratio of the Q meter voltmeter voltage TO the source voltage, to eliminate the source voltage variations. I found that this will work ONLY if the Q voltmeter shunt resistance is very high, that is more than 100 times the reactance of the resonating capacitor. I found that it is possible to calculate the correct Q even when the Q voltmeter shunt resistance is low. This can easily occur with the Boonton 260? Q meter. I have revised my Excel spreadsheet to take into account all residual parameters: The source resistance, inductance, capacitor residual inductance and the load resistance across the tuning capacitor. See: The details of the calculations and simulations: Jacques VE2AZX |
Re: Some more on Jeff's never ending saga to tackle home grown EMI
开云体育Hi Arie, ? very good point. ? Indeed I have built also a limiter circuit with a BNC jack and a plug. I simply plug this onto the BNC port of the LISN to protect the test equipment. ? I guess I should add that information eventually to my description. ? Kind regards ? Matthias ?
? ? Von: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Im Auftrag von Arie de Muijnck via groups.io ? Hi Matthias, On 2023-01-30 12:29, Matthias Bopp wrote:
? |
Re: Some more on Jeff's never ending saga to tackle home grown EMI
开云体育Hi Matthias,A nice design and well build. I have used equipment like this professionally and one item that I added are clamping circuits over the output to the spectrum analyzer. The input of that expensive equipment often cannot withstand the switching spikes when the LISN's output load is switched on or off. Just check it with a scope, the transient on that BNC output can be very high. Regards, Arie de Muijnck On 2023-01-30 12:29, Matthias Bopp
wrote:
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Re: Some more on Jeff's never ending saga to tackle home grown EMI
开云体育Hi Jeff, ? thank you very much for your advice. ? I generated an English version which can now be downloaded here: ?
? This should make life easier for most participants in this forum. ? Kind regards ? Matthias ?
? ? Von: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Im Auftrag von Jeff Green via groups.io ? On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 06:29 AM, Matthias Bopp wrote:
Download the German PDF somewhere you can easily locate it:
Go to: Select the German PDF Wait a few seconds, download a fairly comprehensible version in English. |
Re: Some more on Jeff's never ending saga to tackle home grown EMI
开云体育Hello all, ? This DC-LISN ( WURTH design) is only for DC but works very well. ? ? Jan ON4MMW ? From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Matthias Bopp
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2023 12:30 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Test Equipment Design & Construction] Some more on Jeff's never ending saga to tackle home grown EMI ? Chiao Claudio, ? I have built something similar also based on Thilo’s inputs and it is very helpful: ? ? Sorry it is only in German but I am sure the pics and sketches together with an online translator should help to understand ? ? Kind regards ? Matthias ? ? ? Von: [email protected] <[email protected]> Im Auftrag von i2NDT Claudio via groups.io ? not exactly a "professional" equipment but good enough for our amatorial purposes: |
Re: Some more on Jeff's never ending saga to tackle home grown EMI
开云体育Chiao Claudio, ? I have built something similar also based on Thilo’s inputs and it is very helpful: ?
? Sorry it is only in German but I am sure the pics and sketches together with an online translator should help to understand ? ? Kind regards ? Matthias ?
? ? Von: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Im Auftrag von i2NDT Claudio via groups.io ? not exactly a "professional" equipment but good enough for our amatorial purposes: |
Re: Some more on Jeff's never ending saga to tackle home grown EMI
Check out my LISN design. It includes a wideband current probe that CORRECTLY measures common-mode EMI, something that has never been properly addressed in the measurement standards. They all ignore the role of the grounding conductor as a path for conducted emissions...?
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Re: Marconi Q meter exciter
Hi Morris,
For the amplifier you might consider an amplifier from Mini-circuits, such as: ZHL-32A? (P1dB=+29 dBm),? 50 KHz to 130 MHz, 25 dB gain? or ZHL-3A? (P1dB=+29.5 dBm),? 400 KHz to 150 MHz, 24 dB gain ZHL-2? (P1dB=+30 dBm),? 1 MHz to 1000 MHz, 17 dB gain? (the ZHL-2A starts at 10 MHz, 20 dB gain) One can get them at lower prices on Ebay. Jacques, VE2AZX |
Re: Some more on Jeff's never ending saga to tackle home grown EMI
On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 2:36 PM Jeff Green <Jeff.L.Green1970@...> wrote:
Interesting. What's the spectrum ? Is it the switching converter or the rectification ? ?Big Clive recently did a teardown of an LED bulb with no switcher : |