Re: Two interesting projects
Jeff,
You are certainly correct about the harmonic distortion craze among audiophiles.? Record producers sometimes introduce significant amounts of harmonic distortion for "presence" or "richness;" intermodulation distortion is the undesired culprit, as dissonant components are generated that have no relationship to the original sounds or music.? This is the annoying form of distortion, but it's more difficult to measure.? Harmonic distortion can be pleasant.
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Green <Jeff.L.Green1970@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, Nov 23, 2022 1:07 pm
Subject: [Test Equipment Design & Construction] Two interesting projects
While hardly in the same league as precision Q-meters, these two pages are interesting if you are into audio.
Distortion Measurement System
Covers some of the pitfalls and benefits of a PC based audio analysis system
Let’s face it, from a practical perspective, a THD of 0.004 or 0.003 is insignificant. Even the best speakers will add more harmonic distortion then that.
?
Workbench Signal Routing Panel
While this is a design for audio, I suspect it could serve as a starting point for a RF routing panel.
?
Mr. Elliot’s website is filled with useful audio projects and information.
?
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Re: PCB making software, What do you use?
Kicad is becoming what GCC (GNU C Compiler) is for open source software development: Kicad is probably not the best at any particular task in the PCB creation process.
But it works well enough to do some serious job. The development is ongoing and well supported, so bugs are fixed and new features added. And most importantly, especially for "open hardware" kind of projects, it is well accepted, with a good and growing user base. So doing a project using Kicad will ensure people can do review of it, or re-use it for something else. Plus it's free, and not particularly difficult to use.
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Re: PCB making software, What do you use?
+1 for KiCad. The libraries are amazing (and maintained), and the sheer complexity and set of features is both the only drawback (learning curve and setup) and the most important positive of this set of programs. Setup can be frustrating regarding libraries, particularly when trying to customize (but not impossible).? Consider also that it has a schematic building component - which I think allows for sims and stuff (though I still do all that with LTSpice) - and that will generate your nodes and all that when you're starting (or maintaining ongoing) on the PCB.? The 3D viewer is amazing and at this point I can't do without?it.? I also personally create the PCBs with OSH Park in the US - excellent boards quality and flawless service. They accept uploads of KiCad native files, generate instant previews of all layers on the website, and ordering and recording of projects (for easier later reordering) is entirely online. The only drawback is their sharing system - projects are either private or completely public - nothing in between.? Radu.?
I hang out at a KiCad Facebook group where beginners ask for help coming up to speed. I composed this:
?
The three best KiCad tutorials I have found to date 20221121.
?
Start here:
Robert Feranec
What is KiCad about? Starting with KiCad ...
?
The following two are longer series and will each teach you things the other does not (Or else I may not have watched the full series on either)
?
KiCad 6 STM32 PCB Design Full Tutorial - Phil's Lab #65
?
?
John's Basement on KiCad 5 #17 Hierarchical Labels & Pins
?
Finally help us help you.? When asking for help do not make us guess.
Share your entire project or a simplified version with the problem(s) you have.
?
I use Github for example
?
Hope this helps.
|
Re: PCB making software, What do you use?
I hang out at a KiCad Facebook group where beginners ask for help coming up to speed. I composed this:
?
The three best KiCad tutorials I have found to date 20221121.
?
Start here:
Robert Feranec
What is KiCad about? Starting with KiCad ...
?
The following two are longer series and will each teach you things the other does not (Or else I may not have watched the full series on either)
?
KiCad 6 STM32 PCB Design Full Tutorial - Phil's Lab #65
?
?
John's Basement on KiCad 5 #17 Hierarchical Labels & Pins
?
Finally help us help you.? When asking for help do not make us guess.
Share your entire project or a simplified version with the problem(s) you have.
?
I use Github for example
?
Hope this helps.
|
Re: PCB making software, What do you use?
I have been very happy with the service from jlcpcb and pcbway. However, if you would prefer to use a local manufacturer (and I don't know where you're located) you might try Aisler in Germany or Oshpark in the US.??
On Tue, Nov 22, 2022 at 1:43 PM Mikek < amdx@...> wrote: OP here,
? I have decided on Kicad. Now to start the learning curve just so I can build an smd board or two.
I'll also keep JCLPCB in mind.
?Thanks all, Mikek
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Re: PCB making software, What do you use?
OP here,
? I have decided on Kicad. Now to start the learning curve just so I can build an smd board or two.
I'll also keep JCLPCB in mind.
?Thanks all, Mikek
|
Re: PCB making software, What do you use?
I use FRITZING for schematic capture and PCB layout.? I like the breadboard feature for prototyping.? It allows for layout on the common, plastic plugboards, the ELECTROCOOKIE boards, perfboards and stripboards..
I have had boards produced by FRITZING Fab, JCLPCB and PCBWAY at various times.
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Step Recovery Diode Comb/signal Generator
Hi Guys, I needed an RF signal source to 26 GHz and beyond. Repurposed a HP-5356C which had a failed sampler. The converted head has some amazing devices within it and it makes a terrific SDR Comb Generator with +3dBm input from 885 to 1050 MHz into the amp that drives the SDR package. Added driver amp heatsink, gets a bit warm.? +3dBm input @ 1GHz, @ 27GHz,? -16dBm out. Any frequency out via input from 885 to 1050 MHz modulation on/off works well at 27GHz using HP-8593E with FM demod.? I added a spare 26.5GHz 0-90 dB attenuator and driver.? Regards Gerald VK3GM Gerald  
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Re: PCB making software, What do you use?
And the evaluation of that "suck factor" is quite personal.
1) does it do the job?
2) are you willing to pay ($?) for it
3) are you happy with it?
conclusion:
It's yours.... <grin>
Harvey
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 11/21/2022 8:27 PM, si_emi_01 via groups.io wrote: As John correctly says...
All tools like many other things have a "suck factor". Some people have a higher suck threshold than others.
Ross
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2022 5:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Test Equipment Design & Construction] PCB making software, What do you use?
On 11/21/22 18:56, Harvey White wrote:
Lots of different options, and past a certain level of performance,
there is no "best" PC board program, I think. My experience has been that all CAD tools suck; they just suck in different ways.
John
|
Re: PCB making software, What do you use?
As John correctly says...
All tools like many other things have a "suck factor". Some people have a higher suck threshold than others.
Ross
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] < [email protected]> On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Monday, November 21, 2022 5:51 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [Test Equipment Design & Construction] PCB making software, What do you use? On 11/21/22 18:56, Harvey White wrote: Lots of different options, and past a certain level of performance,
there is no "best" PC board program, I think. My experience has been that all CAD tools suck; they just suck in different ways. John
|
Re: PCB making software, What do you use?
On 11/21/22 18:56, Harvey White wrote: Lots of different options, and past a certain level of performance, there is no "best" PC board program, I think. My experience has been that all CAD tools suck; they just suck in different ways. John
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Re: PCB making software, What do you use?
I started out using Eagle then switched to DipTrace but I am a
pensioner and the license fee was a bit steep. The limitations on
the free license became a problem (limit to number of wires, vias,
and board dimensions) so I moved to Kicad.
Kicad was a bit of a learning curve but worth the persistence and
when v6 came out it became a lot easier (at least for me), it is
free and works very well and I have never had a board fail going
to JLCPCB who do a very good job IMHO.? There is a plug-in for
Kicad that wraps all the gerbers into a zip file that is tailored
for several PCB shops (incl JLCPCB) ready to upload which saves a
lot of fiddling.
It seems that a lot of people don't like the autorouter that is
available as an external tool, but I personally find it pretty
good at doing an initial pass and then tweaking the board manually
if necessary.
Dave
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Show quoted text
On 21/11/2022 23:56, Harvey White wrote:
Ah, that you are (already?) a Fusion 360 user and subscriber,
and that you use the rest of the features of Fusion 360 is a
plus for you.? Since I use none of the Fusion 360 programs (and
I think, never did), the situation isn't the same.?
For the amount I save in subscription fees, I get my normal
yearly run of PC boards close to free,? I suspect on a yearly
basis.? Fortunately, the "hobby" license that I have for 7.7
allows 4 x 6 boards, which for what I do, is sufficient.?
Once I switched PCB houses, I found that JLCPCB's rules allowed
the autorouter to make the boards I designed.? An example is
that with SeeedStudio's rules, I was lucky (at times) to get the
autorouter to run on the Topological router.... and then not
always.? Going to a different set of rules, I found that I had
at least 7 of the standard routing schemes worked, and I did not
need to resort to the topological router.?
We won't mention that the 4 layer boards 4x4inch are
inexpensive enough that I get them for 7 dollars for 5.?
Lots of different options, and past a certain level of
performance, there is no "best" PC board program, I think.
Harvey
On 11/21/2022 6:14 PM, Neil Smith
G4DBN via groups.io wrote:
On 21/11/2022 20:37, Harvey White
wrote:
I
happen to use EAGLE, because I had (and still do) a hobby
license.? That practice ended starting at 8.0 when Autodesk
bought the program and the program bought the farm.
Since I detest the idea of "rent a software", I have never
upgraded.? Autodesk's suggestion is "go do the subscription
program anyway".
I have used EAGLE since FOREVER and I'm happy that it's now
part of Fusion as I already pay for an F360 licence. I get to
use always up to date fully patched software that works
reasonably well and integrates closely with everything I use.
I save the F360 mechanical and PCB projects in portable form
in case Autodesk goes the same way as MySpace, Yahoo or
Twitter (or EZNEC, EMECalc and others as a result of author
retirements and deaths.?
As I work with beastly computers for the day job, the idea of
having to do anything other than open the software and use it
is a step too far for me. All power to those who use KiCAD and
similar, but I like playing with radios, not computers, so
going for the cloud licence is a no-brainer for me.? You have
permission to laugh at me when Autodesk drops Fusion360 and
leaves me in a hole.? Meantime, I'm getting stuff done and
don't have to mess with software installation, upgrades or
interfacing.? I'm also lucky that I'm on a low-cost tier for
F360 as a result of being an EAGLE user for so long.? I still
have some of the earlier versions of EAGLE, but the F360
Electronics facilities are perfect for my needs and feel
mostly like EAGLE anyway.
It's no help to hobbyists or those on very tight budgets or
with Cloud allergies though.
|
Re: PCB making software, What do you use?
I used to hand route XMega boards with graphics chips.? Been
there, done that.?
Too busy messing with software to devote full time for the board
design other than the critical phases.?
I'll give Kicad a try eventually.? Just not right now.? Messing
with FreeRTOS (which I can well use) and AZURE (which we won't
talk about in length, private email will suffice if you want to
know sordid details).
Harvey
On 11/21/2022 4:48 PM, Tony Casey via
groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 21/11/2022 21:37, Harvey White wrote:
I've
considered using Kicad, but the lack of an autorouter tends to
be a bit much.? I'll stick with EAGLE since it's paid for. I've
switched board houses from SeeedStudio to JLCPCB because of
their price on 4X4 4 layer boards.
Just curious: why is the lack of an autorouter on a 4x4 board
critical? In any event, there is a simple interface to ,
which is still better than many paid-for autorouters, even though
it hasn't been significantly updated in a number of years? The
KiCad push'n'shove manual router is now very slick and produces
superior results to autorouters if you've got at least some idea
what you're doing.
--
Regards,
Tony
|
Re: PCB making software, What do you use?
4 layer board, ground plane, TQFP-100 or 144 processor, TQFP-144 graphics chip and associated memory.? I end up manually routing some of the faster data tracks (33 ohm damping resistors), and the chip power/ground bypass capacitors.
The slower stuff I leave to the autorouter.
Harvey
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 11/21/2022 5:05 PM, John Ackermann N8UR via groups.io wrote: On 11/21/22 15:37, Harvey White wrote:
I've considered using Kicad, but the lack of an autorouter tends to be a bit much.? I'll stick with EAGLE since it's paid for. I've switched board houses from SeeedStudio to JLCPCB because of their price on 4X4 4 layer boards. KiCad integrates reasonably well with the open source FreeRouting auto-router ().? You can call it from within KiCad and then import its tracks onto your PCB.? It works pretty well, but I've found that I usually end up manually routing so seldom use it.
John
----
|
Re: PCB making software, What do you use?
Ah, that you are (already?) a Fusion 360 user and subscriber, and
that you use the rest of the features of Fusion 360 is a plus for
you.? Since I use none of the Fusion 360 programs (and I think,
never did), the situation isn't the same.?
For the amount I save in subscription fees, I get my normal
yearly run of PC boards close to free,? I suspect on a yearly
basis.? Fortunately, the "hobby" license that I have for 7.7
allows 4 x 6 boards, which for what I do, is sufficient.?
Once I switched PCB houses, I found that JLCPCB's rules allowed
the autorouter to make the boards I designed.? An example is that
with SeeedStudio's rules, I was lucky (at times) to get the
autorouter to run on the Topological router.... and then not
always.? Going to a different set of rules, I found that I had at
least 7 of the standard routing schemes worked, and I did not need
to resort to the topological router.?
We won't mention that the 4 layer boards 4x4inch are inexpensive
enough that I get them for 7 dollars for 5.?
Lots of different options, and past a certain level of
performance, there is no "best" PC board program, I think.
Harvey
On 11/21/2022 6:14 PM, Neil Smith G4DBN
via groups.io wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 21/11/2022 20:37, Harvey White
wrote:
I
happen to use EAGLE, because I had (and still do) a hobby
license.? That practice ended starting at 8.0 when Autodesk
bought the program and the program bought the farm.
Since I detest the idea of "rent a software", I have never
upgraded.? Autodesk's suggestion is "go do the subscription
program anyway".
I have used EAGLE since FOREVER and I'm happy that it's now
part of Fusion as I already pay for an F360 licence. I get to
use always up to date fully patched software that works
reasonably well and integrates closely with everything I use. I
save the F360 mechanical and PCB projects in portable form in
case Autodesk goes the same way as MySpace, Yahoo or Twitter (or
EZNEC, EMECalc and others as a result of author retirements and
deaths.?
As I work with beastly computers for the day job, the idea of
having to do anything other than open the software and use it is
a step too far for me. All power to those who use KiCAD and
similar, but I like playing with radios, not computers, so going
for the cloud licence is a no-brainer for me.? You have
permission to laugh at me when Autodesk drops Fusion360 and
leaves me in a hole.? Meantime, I'm getting stuff done and don't
have to mess with software installation, upgrades or
interfacing.? I'm also lucky that I'm on a low-cost tier for
F360 as a result of being an EAGLE user for so long.? I still
have some of the earlier versions of EAGLE, but the F360
Electronics facilities are perfect for my needs and feel mostly
like EAGLE anyway.
It's no help to hobbyists or those on very tight budgets or
with Cloud allergies though.
|
Re: PCB making software, What do you use?
On 21/11/2022 20:37, Harvey White
wrote:
I
happen to use EAGLE, because I had (and still do) a hobby
license.? That practice ended starting at 8.0 when Autodesk bought
the program and the program bought the farm.
Since I detest the idea of "rent a software", I have never
upgraded.? Autodesk's suggestion is "go do the subscription
program anyway".
I have used EAGLE since FOREVER and I'm happy that it's now part
of Fusion as I already pay for an F360 licence. I get to use
always up to date fully patched software that works reasonably
well and integrates closely with everything I use. I save the F360
mechanical and PCB projects in portable form in case Autodesk goes
the same way as MySpace, Yahoo or Twitter (or EZNEC, EMECalc and
others as a result of author retirements and deaths.?
As I work with beastly computers for the day job, the idea of
having to do anything other than open the software and use it is a
step too far for me. All power to those who use KiCAD and similar,
but I like playing with radios, not computers, so going for the
cloud licence is a no-brainer for me.? You have permission to
laugh at me when Autodesk drops Fusion360 and leaves me in a
hole.? Meantime, I'm getting stuff done and don't have to mess
with software installation, upgrades or interfacing.? I'm also
lucky that I'm on a low-cost tier for F360 as a result of being an
EAGLE user for so long.? I still have some of the earlier versions
of EAGLE, but the F360 Electronics facilities are perfect for my
needs and feel mostly like EAGLE anyway.
It's no help to hobbyists or those on very tight budgets or with
Cloud allergies though.
|
Re: PCB making software, What do you use?
On Mon, 21 Nov 2022 at 15:20, Mikek < amdx@...> wrote: I have made pcbs with software but it has been many years since I last used a program.
?I want something that will do surface mount as well as through hole. Fast learning curve is a big plus!
?Also Free!
I don't have anything very complex, 2, 3, or 4, transistors maybe later I'll try some SMD ICs.
?What do you recommend.
BTW, there used to be programs where you could get 3 pcbs for $xx.00,
?but I'm not finding any hits for those.
?????????????????????????? Mikek
Kicad. Very capable, and you will find plenty of open-hardware projects using the software, so if you want to modify them, you can do. I can't see any justification for using any other software, other than simplicity. But the Kicad tutorial is pretty good.
You can be pretty sure that anything you make with Kicad will be usable in future, as its open-source and runs on multiple platforms. Using some closed source Windoze software, and it's anyone's guess where you will be if the? company does not update it and Microsoft break backward compatibility, as they often do.
I have over the years used a few packages - Pads, Easy PC, Orcad Another I used I think was EE designer - I could not get on with that.
If I was offered a free license for Altium, I would not bother.
Go with Kicad - you will not regret it.
Dave
|
Re: PCB making software, What do you use?
You could look at ExpressPCB.
Very short learning curve.
Con is the output is for their pcb house, but, there are
converters to gerber available.
Glenn
On 11/21/2022 10:20 AM, Mikek wrote:
I have made pcbs with software but it has been many years since I
last used a program.
?I want something that will do surface mount as well as through
hole. Fast learning curve is a big plus!
?Also Free!
I don't have anything very complex, 2, 3, or 4, transistors maybe
later I'll try some SMD ICs.
?What do you recommend.
BTW, there used to be programs where you could get 3 pcbs for
$xx.00,
?but I'm not finding any hits for those.
?????????????????????????? Mikek
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Little ARRL Technical Specialist QCWA LM 28417
Amateur Callsign: WB4UIV wb4uiv@... AMSAT LM 2178
QTH: Goose Creek, SC USA (EM92xx) USSVI, FRA, NRA-LM ARRL TAPR
"It is not the class of license that the Amateur holds but the class
of the Amateur that holds the license"
|
Re: PCB making software, What do you use?
On 11/21/22 15:37, Harvey White wrote: I've considered using Kicad, but the lack of an autorouter tends to be a bit much.? I'll stick with EAGLE since it's paid for. I've switched board houses from SeeedStudio to JLCPCB because of their price on 4X4 4 layer boards. KiCad integrates reasonably well with the open source FreeRouting auto-router (). You can call it from within KiCad and then import its tracks onto your PCB. It works pretty well, but I've found that I usually end up manually routing so seldom use it. John ----
|
Re: PCB making software, What do you use?
On 21/11/2022 21:37, Harvey White wrote:
I've
considered using Kicad, but the lack of an autorouter tends to be
a bit much.? I'll stick with EAGLE since it's paid for. I've
switched board houses from SeeedStudio to JLCPCB because of their
price on 4X4 4 layer boards.
Just curious: why is the lack of an autorouter on a 4x4 board
critical? In any event, there is a simple interface to ,
which is still better than many paid-for autorouters, even though it
hasn't been significantly updated in a number of years? The KiCad
push'n'shove manual router is now very slick and produces superior
results to autorouters if you've got at least some idea what you're
doing.
--
Regards,
Tony
|
ebrucehunter
Forrest Erickson
Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd
Tony Casey