Re: Brake Master Cylinder mounting question
While the brake part stays vertical, no brake should be applied.
El jue, 27 de feb. de 2025 a la(s) 16:48, David Powell via groups.io <dpowell102459@...> escribi¨®: Toes only on the rudder pedals.? On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 1:21?PM Brady William Cope via <brady.w.cope= [email protected]> wrote: I¡¯m sorry if this is a dumb question, but I can¡¯t figure out how the rudder pedals are supposed to move more than a few degrees without applying the brakes inadvertently.?
As opposed to the diagram linked by Merle above, where the Master Cylinder is mounted directly to the rudder pedal.
Can someone help me understand? Thank you
Brady Cope Matco has an excellent writeup on the geometry.
check it out.
Merle
On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:21?PM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote: The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
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Re: Brake Master Cylinder mounting question
Toes only on the rudder pedals.?
On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 1:21?PM Brady William Cope via <brady.w.cope= [email protected]> wrote: I¡¯m sorry if this is a dumb question, but I can¡¯t figure out how the rudder pedals are supposed to move more than a few degrees without applying the brakes inadvertently.?
As opposed to the diagram linked by Merle above, where the Master Cylinder is mounted directly to the rudder pedal.
Can someone help me understand? Thank you
Brady Cope Matco has an excellent writeup on the geometry.
check it out.
Merle
On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:21?PM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote: The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
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Re: Brake Master Cylinder mounting question
Should be close to a parallelo
gram.
On Thu, Feb 27, 2025, 1:21?PM Brady William Cope via <brady.w.cope= [email protected]> wrote: I¡¯m sorry if this is a dumb question, but I can¡¯t figure out how the rudder pedals are supposed to move more than a few degrees without applying the brakes inadvertently.?
As opposed to the diagram linked by Merle above, where the Master Cylinder is mounted directly to the rudder pedal.
Can someone help me understand? Thank you
Brady Cope Matco has an excellent writeup on the geometry.
check it out.
Merle
On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:21?PM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote: The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
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Re: Brake Master Cylinder mounting question
I¡¯m sorry if this is a dumb question, but I can¡¯t figure out how the rudder pedals are supposed to move more than a few degrees without applying the brakes inadvertently.?
As opposed to the diagram linked by Merle above, where the Master Cylinder is mounted directly to the rudder pedal.
Can someone help me understand? Thank you
Brady Cope
Matco has an excellent writeup on the geometry.
check it out.
Merle
On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:21?PM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote: The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
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Gene passed away at age 95. Most probably don't know that Gene built airplanes with his son at Santa Paula Airport in CA. Glasair, I think a 3, and a Pitts or maybe a Christen Eagle.? I think Gene had heart problems and stopped flying.? A photo of him with Top P. in the EAA museum in late 80's can be found.?
Do a search "Movie Actors who were pilots." Gene is not on that list and the list is very incomplete. The list was much longer just after the end of WWII. Steve McQueen was at Santa Paula in his final years. Tyrone Power was a Marine Pilot in the war and owned a DC3 after the war.?
A friend taught Johnny Carson to fly at Teterboro in the early 60,s. My friend was on the Carson show in that era as was Art Scholl. A few years ago Johnny's log book was on display at EAA Museum. The book was open with a signature Earl J. Sollien. Earl was from Hamilton NY and was a couple or years ahead of me in high school. His father in law was a local pilot and taught Earl to fly. Earl was a EAA Member when he passed away at his retirement home in FL. Ed McMahon and Skitch Henderson from the early Carson shows were both pilots. Ed was career Marine Reserve fighter pilot.?
?
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Thanks for ?the interesting data points, Jim.? Great performance even with a 2700 rpm limit.
Bob W. summed it up nicely in a previous post, Steve's TW design was/is a quantum leap in performance !
Thomas in NC
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The following photos have been
uploaded to the
N83CJ
photo album of the [email protected] group.
By:
Karl Wittnebel <dr.wittnebel@...>
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Jim,
Is your whirlwind prop a 72¡±?? What angle do you have your blades set too?
On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 10:50?AM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote: A few comments on racing:
Based on trial and error with my Pitts with 76" diameter Sensenich prop I found the best pitch was 60" which allowed a maximum? r'/m of 3300 at 200 statute indicated. I think this translates somewhat to racing the Tailwind with a fixed pitch. I flew cross country with the Pitts as high as 2900 r/m. I am told that is what Steve used for the racers with a cross country prop and a separate prop for racing.
I think 2900 would be the optimum for the Tailwind for the SARL racing.?
having said that I recorded some numbers yesterday with the Whirlwind GA on my W10. 0 320 with 10-1 compression. The engine is balanced, no other mods.I respect the 2700 r/m limit for the Whirlwind prop.?
My cowl flap is stuck in the half open position. Aft portion of wheel pants removed because of rough runway.
?
For reference temperature used for true airspeed was from Winds aloft forecast. Altitude was pressure altitude. Temperature at 3000' was 23C which is 14c above standard altitude
?
3000' 24" and 2550 r/m
185 statute indicated
175 knots true airspeed
?
6000' 22' 2650 r/m
190 statute indicated airspeed
183 kt? True airspeed.?
The cowl flap and wheel pants are probably a 5 knot reduction in speed.?
?
I have previously seen True airspeeds as high as 190 at altitudes around 10,000'
I claim? 170 kts/195 statute cruise.?
?
I am happy with the Whirlwind prop and don't plan to change props. I do believe a prop that would turn 2900 r/m full throttle would be significantly faster for racing.?
?
--
Bob Wray
N115WT
KABI
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You remember correctly, I think that our last record was 236.18 I do have three 20 column sheets with work done and speeds attained that could be turned into a book I suppose. Most people are not will ing to spend the time and effort to do everything that we did with #37. Some of the mods make routine maintenance more difficult, you have to be dedicated, or a flat out nut. I used the ¡°Speed With Economy¡± book by Kent Paser even though a lot of his mods were for things that the Tailwind already has right. There are other books that have more theory in them that are good but take more ¡°thinking¡±. I do appreciate all of the tips that folks on this list gave me in the day, I may not have tried them all but surely tried most of them. Red ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Don Norris via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2025 5:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TailwindForum] Airventure race 2010? IIRC, Red has exceeded that speed in a SARL race. What a legacy of records. How are you coming on the "Red's Guide to Tailwind Speed" book? On Wednesday, February 26th, 2025 at 5:50 PM, red via groups.io <redswing@...> wrote:
Thank you, Dennis. For those who are not acquainted with the SARL rules, ¡°Red¡± in the class means no larger than a 320 cu in engine; ¡°Blue¡± means no larger than 360 cu engine in the class. At that time, the class record for RV Red was 203 mph. quite a difference between a Tailwind and an RV with similar engines in terms of speed. Red ? ? Speed is in knots, these are all the planes Red beat in 2010 Airventure race 193.79223kts=223mph! FX RedWittman Tailwind W-10Hamilton, Red & Marilyn Boese193.79223.01? FX RedCozy MK IIIMallia, Jeff192.17221.14? RV BlueRV-8Ross, Jon189.01217.51? RG RedLancair 320Rossman, Bill187.5215.77? RV BlueRV-8Carroll, Alan182.98210.57? FX RedLong EZLamb, Rich182.63210.17?? RV BlueRV-7AMoore,Tom179.97207.11 RV BlueRV-6AAxsom, Bob179.83206.94? RV BlueRV-4Shoup, Doug177.64204.43? RV BlueRV-7Mullaney, John175.69202.18?? SprintQuickie Q-200Hoskins, Sam175.66202.15? FX RedSidewinderBiesemeier, Dave174.74201.09?? RV RedRV-4Murphy, Chris173199.09?? SprintLong EZAdams, David172.52198.53?? RV RedRV-3Vasey, Bob171.17196.98? RV BlueRV-7AVerdier, Jean-Pierre168.83194.29?? FX RedMustang IIBovee, Tim165.08189.97?? SprintLancair 235Collins, Dennis163.82188.52?? SportsmanSonerai ILange, Jeff159.07183.06?? FX RedLong EZFritz, Kerry157.97181.79?? SportSeawindWalljasper, Keith157180.68?? SportsmanKR-2SLangford, Mark154.67177.99?? SprintMidget MustangKeich, John152.56175.56? SportSeawindReibling, Mike151.71174.58?? SprintKitfoxMatteson, Lynn92.91106.92??
?
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IIRC, Red has exceeded that speed in a SARL race. What a legacy of records. How are you coming on the "Red's Guide to Tailwind Speed" book?
On Wednesday, February 26th, 2025 at 5:50 PM, red via groups.io <redswing@...> wrote:
Thank you, Dennis. For those who are not acquainted with the SARL rules, ¡°Red¡± in the class means no larger than a 320 cu in engine; ¡°Blue¡± means no larger than 360 cu engine in the class. At that time, the class record for RV Red was 203 mph. quite a difference between a Tailwind and an RV with similar engines in terms of speed. Red ? ? Speed is in knots, these are all the planes Red beat in 2010 Airventure race 193.79223kts=223mph! FX RedWittman Tailwind W-10Hamilton, Red & Marilyn Boese193.79223.01? FX RedCozy MK IIIMallia, Jeff192.17221.14? RV BlueRV-8Ross, Jon189.01217.51? RG RedLancair 320Rossman, Bill187.5215.77? RV BlueRV-8Carroll, Alan182.98210.57? FX RedLong EZLamb, Rich182.63210.17?? RV BlueRV-7AMoore,Tom179.97207.11 RV BlueRV-6AAxsom, Bob179.83206.94? RV BlueRV-4Shoup, Doug177.64204.43? RV BlueRV-7Mullaney, John175.69202.18?? SprintQuickie Q-200Hoskins, Sam175.66202.15? FX RedSidewinderBiesemeier, Dave174.74201.09?? RV RedRV-4Murphy, Chris173199.09?? SprintLong EZAdams, David172.52198.53?? RV RedRV-3Vasey, Bob171.17196.98? RV BlueRV-7AVerdier, Jean-Pierre168.83194.29?? FX RedMustang IIBovee, Tim165.08189.97?? SprintLancair 235Collins, Dennis163.82188.52?? SportsmanSonerai ILange, Jeff159.07183.06?? FX RedLong EZFritz, Kerry157.97181.79?? SportSeawindWalljasper, Keith157180.68?? SportsmanKR-2SLangford, Mark154.67177.99?? SprintMidget MustangKeich, John152.56175.56? SportSeawindReibling, Mike151.71174.58?? SprintKitfoxMatteson, Lynn92.91106.92??
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Thank you, Dennis. For those who are not acquainted with the SARL rules, ¡°Red¡± in the class means no larger than a 320 cu in engine; ¡°Blue¡± means no larger than 360 cu engine in the class. At that time, the class record for RV Red was 203 mph. quite a difference between a Tailwind and an RV with similar engines in terms of speed. Red ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Dennis Flamini via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2025 8:02 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [TailwindForum] Airventure race 2010? Speed is in knots, these are all the planes Red beat in 2010 Airventure race 193.79223kts=223mph! FX RedWittman Tailwind W-10Hamilton, Red & Marilyn Boese193.79223.01? FX RedCozy MK IIIMallia, Jeff192.17221.14? RV BlueRV-8Ross, Jon189.01217.51? RG RedLancair 320Rossman, Bill187.5215.77? RV BlueRV-8Carroll, Alan182.98210.57? FX RedLong EZLamb, Rich182.63210.17?? RV BlueRV-7AMoore,Tom179.97207.11 RV BlueRV-6AAxsom, Bob179.83206.94? RV BlueRV-4Shoup, Doug177.64204.43? RV BlueRV-7Mullaney, John175.69202.18?? SprintQuickie Q-200Hoskins, Sam175.66202.15? FX RedSidewinderBiesemeier, Dave174.74201.09?? RV RedRV-4Murphy, Chris173199.09?? SprintLong EZAdams, David172.52198.53?? RV RedRV-3Vasey, Bob171.17196.98? RV BlueRV-7AVerdier, Jean-Pierre168.83194.29?? FX RedMustang IIBovee, Tim165.08189.97?? SprintLancair 235Collins, Dennis163.82188.52?? SportsmanSonerai ILange, Jeff159.07183.06?? FX RedLong EZFritz, Kerry157.97181.79?? SportSeawindWalljasper, Keith157180.68?? SportsmanKR-2SLangford, Mark154.67177.99?? SprintMidget MustangKeich, John152.56175.56? SportSeawindReibling, Mike151.71174.58?? SprintKitfoxMatteson, Lynn92.91106.92??
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A few comments on racing:
Based on trial and error with my Pitts with 76" diameter Sensenich prop I found the best pitch was 60" which allowed a maximum? r'/m of 3300 at 200 statute indicated. I think this translates somewhat to racing the Tailwind with a fixed pitch. I flew cross country with the Pitts as high as 2900 r/m. I am told that is what Steve used for the racers with a cross country prop and a separate prop for racing.
I think 2900 would be the optimum for the Tailwind for the SARL racing.?
having said that I recorded some numbers yesterday with the Whirlwind GA on my W10. 0 320 with 10-1 compression. The engine is balanced, no other mods.I respect the 2700 r/m limit for the Whirlwind prop.?
My cowl flap is stuck in the half open position. Aft portion of wheel pants removed because of rough runway.
?
For reference temperature used for true airspeed was from Winds aloft forecast. Altitude was pressure altitude. Temperature at 3000' was 23C which is 14c above standard altitude
?
3000' 24" and 2550 r/m
185 statute indicated
175 knots true airspeed
?
6000' 22' 2650 r/m
190 statute indicated airspeed
183 kt? True airspeed.?
The cowl flap and wheel pants are probably a 5 knot reduction in speed.?
?
I have previously seen True airspeeds as high as 190 at altitudes around 10,000'
I claim? 170 kts/195 statute cruise.?
?
I am happy with the Whirlwind prop and don't plan to change props. I do believe a prop that would turn 2900 r/m full throttle would be significantly faster for racing.?
?
|
Re: Brake Master Cylinder mounting question
Matco has an excellent writeup on the geometry.
check it out.
Merle
On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 1:21?PM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote: The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
|
Re: Brake Master Cylinder mounting question
The cylinders should be mounted lower and the arm for the top should be on the axis of rotation of the brake pedal.
The Clement method was to use a 5/8 square tube for the lower mount and weld a piece of 5/16 x .058 tubing across the bottom of the 5/8 square. I will try to remember to measure mine but I think the geometry on the Tailwind plans is wrong for the mounting point in relation to the length of the are. The arm does not need to be? square to the pedal, it can angle upward significantly.?
|
Re: Brake Master Cylinder mounting question
Andy
However you do it, i think you are going to have to move the tabs down on the pedals because i don't think you will get enough leverage the way they are now..? the are some good articles on the Internet about brake geometry.??
My guess is you would have to lower the whole mc in order to make it work.? But if you can get shorter rods that could work. I think you will need to move the tabs down at least 1/2 ways down the pedal.?
Keith
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Brake Master Cylinder mounting question
First, a bit of back story, I did not build this airframe.. it was started in 80's and ?90's. I took over this project from Jim Howell.. I only have a photo album full of actual pictures of the original build..otherwise we're trying to finish this airplane without much info.
I bought Matco MC5 and am trying to set them up and the brake geometry has got us scratching?our heads. The lower tabs anre not exactly welded straight, not sure if there was a reason as to why, or perhaps trying to match the build of the pedals. Toe brakes have the upper arms welded on top of the pedals (Unlike what JC has said to weld them lower on the upper toe brake parts) which add to the angle being wrong..? I am trying to figure out if I should just rebuild the lower mounting tabs to lower the MC's all together to get the angles right? Here are some pictures. One pic from the original builder as he was testing them out, but I cant think that taxi'ing around would also actuate the brakes based on the location and the angle of the MC's.?
I also can have Matco swap out the shafts to their shorter shafts which *I THINK* would achieve the same effect as lowering the lower mounting points??
Any thoughts, other pics, suggestions, advice highly appreciated!
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Thanks for posting Dennis!? These airplanes are incredible.? Even though mine is not as fast as Red's or as fast as many of yours on this forum.? It is just a thrill to be able to routinely? cruise at over 150 kts as I fly around the country.? ?After underestimating my speed for a while,? the tower here at LSE knows now how to space us out when multiple planes are in the pattern with me.? I used to routinely get asked to do a 360 when getting closer in to the field after I called 10 miles out because? they were expecting C172 speeds.? Now they can safely put me in the pattern where it makes sense to avoid that because they know how fast I am going.
?
I am also excited that we have many new Tailwind owners as part of this wonderful group.? ?Hope to see many of you at Watertown and/or Airventure this year.
Keith
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Speed is in knots, these are all the planes Red beat in 2010 Airventure race 193.79223kts=223mph!
FX RedWittman Tailwind W-10Hamilton, Red & Marilyn Boese193.79223.01?
FX RedCozy MK IIIMallia, Jeff192.17221.14?
RV BlueRV-8Ross, Jon189.01217.51?
RG RedLancair 320Rossman, Bill187.5215.77?
RV BlueRV-8Carroll, Alan182.98210.57?
FX RedLong EZLamb, Rich182.63210.17??
RV BlueRV-7AMoore,Tom179.97207.11
RV BlueRV-6AAxsom, Bob179.83206.94?
RV BlueRV-4Shoup, Doug177.64204.43?
RV BlueRV-7Mullaney, John175.69202.18??
SprintQuickie Q-200Hoskins, Sam175.66202.15?
FX RedSidewinderBiesemeier, Dave174.74201.09??
RV RedRV-4Murphy, Chris173199.09??
SprintLong EZAdams, David172.52198.53??
RV RedRV-3Vasey, Bob171.17196.98?
RV BlueRV-7AVerdier, Jean-Pierre168.83194.29??
FX RedMustang IIBovee, Tim165.08189.97??
SprintLancair 235Collins, Dennis163.82188.52??
SportsmanSonerai ILange, Jeff159.07183.06??
FX RedLong EZFritz, Kerry157.97181.79??
SportSeawindWalljasper, Keith157180.68??
SportsmanKR-2SLangford, Mark154.67177.99??
SprintMidget MustangKeich, John152.56175.56?
SportSeawindReibling, Mike151.71174.58??
SprintKitfoxMatteson, Lynn92.91106.92??
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Another data point.? Fiberfrax is a fireproof?insulating material.? I cut some 1/8" thick to size to fit a Vans Heat Shield, then secure it with Aluminum tape.? The Aluminum reflects the heat and the fiberfrax insulates. ?
On Sat, Feb 22, 2025 at 12:35?PM Michael Robinson via <toobuilder1= [email protected]> wrote: I have some close areas as well and simple aluminum speed tape works well.? Clean the contact area well and seal the edges with RTV and it lasts a good long time
?
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Thanks Jim. Your 3 degrees recommendation probably just saved me weeks of hunting for the right pitch!? I appreciate it.?
Bob
Your RPM is way too low and thus giving up a lot of take off , climb and top speed performance. As per GA200L propeller set up Instructions, ?WOT straight and level RPM should be 2700. With this setting your TW will easily reach 195 mph, probably
more. Plus take off and climb will be substantially better. At. WOT rpm is proportional to HP, more HP is more thrust, more thrust always =more performance.
Est. Reduce pitch approx 3 degrees
Tried and true method to measure performance is to compare fuel flow for a given speed
Jim Rust
Whilwind prop pitch adjustments:
Flew 1/2 hour today with a lot more pitch (26.1 degrees relative to new spinner back plate). This is approximately the same pitch angle I had last summer that gave me about 195 mph. Todays 26.1 degrees was with a different hub, relative to a
different backing plate, and was measured with a different protractor. Whatever the source of difference this is now (probably) too much pitch. Today WOT at 7500¡¯ ?gave 23.2¡±MAP 2400rpm and 191mph average stabilized ground speed flying 4 points of compass.
?This was without spinner dome.
Also
static rpm was only 1800rpm.
? I plan to make more flights including some lower altitude flights at WOT and less than WOT with spinner dome installed before adjusting pitch again. Currently I expect to target <25 degrees.?
Also, I posted a basic ad on Barnstormers.? Note that I may replace N115WT with a low and slow airplane that could be a primary trainer for my young adult children.?
Whirlwind prop (new whirlwind spinner going on now, see pic). Efficient cowl. Low drag wheel pants with nice gear leg fairings (taping them adds a few knots but I haven¡¯t learned to do it without making an ugly mess). A very nice single piece
of carbon fiber that provides both sides wing root fairing and runs across the fuselage at the back of the windscreen that is a work of art. Very smoothly built wings. Simple and light build.?
Those are incremental factors. The quantum leap came from Steve Wittman and his wonderful design. ?
On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 6:07?AM Thomas B via <tbinpittsboro= [email protected]> wrote:
Thank you for that detailed info, Bob.? Great performance :)
Noticed the plenum on the previous pic you posted, any other efficiency tweaks done on your TW ? ??
Thomas in NC
--
Bob Wray
N115WT
KABI
--
Bob Wray
N115WT
KABI
--
Bob Wray
N115WT
KABI
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Brady William Cope
Bob Wray
Merle W
Keith Klos
Dennis Flamini