Re: Calbie Wood Metal Wings
Yes, full length W-10 per plans, trapezoidal tip, wood construction, flaps and ailerons fabric covered Red ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Smoky via groups.io
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2025 7:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TailwindForum] Calbie Wood Metal Wings? Red, you say ¡°mine were 55#¡± ¨C you¡¯re talking about W10 Wittman designed wood wings.? Thanks in advance if you would clarify that.? Depending on the order the forum responses come in, sometimes it is not totally obvious for which previous post a reply is intended.? Thanks. ? ? Mine were 55#, with flaps and ailerons but without paint; some are heavier Red ? ? I think someone on the Forum said the W10 wood wings were 55# each. ? I also built metal wings for my Tailwind and made them wet wings. I concur with Bill that the plans had a note ¡°fuel goes here¡±. I recall a discussion of the weight of the wings as I was building and the weight of the metal wings was very close to the wooden wings. ? ? On Thursday, January 23, 2025, 12:54 PM, WILLIAM via <bbernard1945=[email protected]> wrote: No I did not. The plans just had a note saying place fuel here, with no guidance on exactly how to do it. Also, I had dealt with proseal before and had no desire to do it again. And Bill ¨C did you have fuel tanks in those wings? ? ? I built metal wings for my Tailwind. IIRC they weighed 63 pounds per panel, including flaps and ailerons. On 01/22/2025 4:44 PM CST Smoky via <lowea1@...> wrote: Are Calbie Wood metal wings generally heavier than standard W10 wings?? I know, I know, somebody is going to say at what span?? Well I¡¯m pretty sure the Calbie Wood plans are for wings of only one length.? I guess Wittman wings have been made in several slightly different spans.? Anyway, please shoot me a comparison, if you will.? Thanks. ? Tony
--
Bruce Butts
N525WT
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Re: Flap setting for take off
Thanks for that!? I am going to look into whether a similar setup can be installed on my W8.? It would certainly be nice to be able to trim out the pitch change when deploying flaps.? Great info!!
Joe
On Fri, Jan 24, 2025 at 10:25?AM Tailwind14855 via <Tailwind14855= [email protected]> wrote:
My flap settings measure 14,29, and 40 degrees. I have a interconnect spring between the flap controls and elevator controls so there is no control force change as the flaps are extended. Trim it flaps up at 90 or so on downwind and it is still in trim with flaps down on final. Not sure how that could be done on a W8 as the elevator horn is oriented down vs up on the W10 which reverses some of the control mechanism
On Thursday, January 23, 2025 at 08:18:09 AM MST, Joe Norris via <joepilot13= [email protected]> wrote:
Thanks for the great input Keith.? Good info.
I have not tried two notches for takeoff on my Tailwind yet.? Might give it a go when I get back up north in the spring, just to see how it does compared to my usual one-notch takeoff.?
As you can tell by my comments, my plane has three notches of flaps.? I have not actually measured the deflection, so I am not sure whether it is 10,20, and 30 degrees or some other increments.? Another project for the spring!?
As an aside, I cannot get full flaps in flight.? Due to the geometry of the flap lever combined with my arthritic right shoulder, I just don't have the muscle or leverage to get that third notch, even when slowed down to pattern speeds.? So as a result I have been landing with the second notch, which works just fine.? But it would be interesting to see what full flaps does.?
The other thing about my plane is that the trim is not nearly strong enough to balance out the nose-down pitch change when adding flaps.? Full nose up trim and I still have to hold a lot of backpressure on the stick in order to stay on speed.? I am sure it would be even worse with full flaps.? Not hard to control, just a bit of a workout.? I guess I can use the exercise, so no worries.?
Joe
Ray,
I can't remember if I had tried 2 notches.? I want to say that I did and it really didn't help anything.? I think that perhaps after you get past 1 notch it is just pretty much all drag.? ? ?I will try it next time I fly and see what happens.? ? I almost always land with full flaps even in a strong crosswind.?
?
As an aside I have tried "reflexing" the flaps in cruise flight to see the effect.? ?Some claim that on some airplanes reflexing the flaps a little will increase speed.? ? ?I can say that it definitely does NOT add speed to my airplane.? When I built my plane my flap linkage allowed so that I could get about 1+ degree or so (guessing) of reflex. I did not create another hole in the arm but rather can just hold the flap lever down.? Before I put in the AP? I would try it but wasn't able to really tell cause it would change the angle of attack slightly and then I would be all over the place in altitude so it was hard to tell the effect.? ?After I installed my AP and can set altitude hold,? ?I have tried it and it slows me down a couple of knots when I reflex the flaps.? It was an interesting experiment.
?
There were a number of other threads about this some time ago
?
Keith
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Re: Calbie Wood Metal Wings
Red, you say ¡°mine were 55#¡± ¨C you¡¯re talking about W10 Wittman designed wood wings.? Thanks in advance if you would clarify that.? Depending on the order the forum responses come in, sometimes it is not totally obvious for which previous post a reply is intended.? Thanks. ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of red via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2025 8:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TailwindForum] Calbie Wood Metal Wings? Mine were 55#, with flaps and ailerons but without paint; some are heavier Red ? ? I think someone on the Forum said the W10 wood wings were 55# each. ? I also built metal wings for my Tailwind and made them wet wings. I concur with Bill that the plans had a note ¡°fuel goes here¡±. I recall a discussion of the weight of the wings as I was building and the weight of the metal wings was very close to the wooden wings. ? ? On Thursday, January 23, 2025, 12:54 PM, WILLIAM via <bbernard1945=[email protected]> wrote: No I did not. The plans just had a note saying place fuel here, with no guidance on exactly how to do it. Also, I had dealt with proseal before and had no desire to do it again. And Bill ¨C did you have fuel tanks in those wings? ? ? I built metal wings for my Tailwind. IIRC they weighed 63 pounds per panel, including flaps and ailerons. On 01/22/2025 4:44 PM CST Smoky via <lowea1@...> wrote: Are Calbie Wood metal wings generally heavier than standard W10 wings?? I know, I know, somebody is going to say at what span?? Well I¡¯m pretty sure the Calbie Wood plans are for wings of only one length.? I guess Wittman wings have been made in several slightly different spans.? Anyway, please shoot me a comparison, if you will.? Thanks. ? Tony
--
Bruce Butts
N525WT
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Re: Calbie Wood Metal Wings
Thanks Charlie.? That¡¯s ?well-documented quantitative information.? Useful, ¡°good to know¡± stuff folks can work with.? ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of RV7 builder via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2025 7:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [TailwindForum] Calbie Wood Metal Wings? Just in case anyone's interested in an apples to oranges to pomegranates comparison, below are my numbers from when I painted my RV7 wings. I failed to weigh the ailerons, flaps and wingtips prior to paint, but there should be minimal weight gain since the entire wing only gained less than 3 lbs. This wing is obviously cantilever, and is rated for 1800 lbs gross in Utility Category (1600 lbs in 6G acro category). Not intended to be a better/worse kind of post; I just always find it interesting to compare design techniques/choices for various missions. I'd love to see numbers for a 'strutted' wood wing rated at the same GW/category/stall speed. Weighed a painted vs unpainted wing ~115" long by ~100" circumference (~79.9 sq feet): unpainted, with only the large pushrod installed and no flaps or aileron:
73.6 pounds Fully painted wing; same conditions:
76.53 lbs So... 46.88 oz over 73.6 sq ft = .6739 oz per sq ft for primer & paint.
Primer was single coat (Summit recommends 1-2 medium wet coats).
Finish was two relatively thin coats (Summit recommends 2-3 medium wet coats)? Wingtips, flaps, & ailerons will add 20-25 sq feet of paint. tip: ~6.5 lbs painted
flap ~5.8 lbs painted
Aileron: ~9.5 lbs painted
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Re: Flap setting for take off
Jim,
That is a clever idea.? I might have to try it.? When I am light? I have just barely enough up trim with full flaps.? With two people and/or some bags and low fuel,? I have more than enough up trim.? ?Not a big deal as I just normally go to full up trim when i put in the flaps.? ?Pretty much always go from zero flaps to full flaps in one motion.? I will have explore how I an do something similar.? Should be relatively easy to do once i figure out the proper place to attach a spring.
?
Keith
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Re: Flap setting for take off
My flap settings measure 14,29, and 40 degrees. I have a interconnect spring between the flap controls and elevator controls so there is no control force change as the flaps are extended. Trim it flaps up at 90 or so on downwind and it is still in trim with flaps down on final. Not sure how that could be done on a W8 as the elevator horn is oriented down vs up on the W10 which reverses some of the control mechanism
On Thursday, January 23, 2025 at 08:18:09 AM MST, Joe Norris via groups.io <joepilot13@...> wrote:
Thanks for the great input Keith.? Good info.
I have not tried two notches for takeoff on my Tailwind yet.? Might give it a go when I get back up north in the spring, just to see how it does compared to my usual one-notch takeoff.?
As you can tell by my comments, my plane has three notches of flaps.? I have not actually measured the deflection, so I am not sure whether it is 10,20, and 30 degrees or some other increments.? Another project for the spring!?
As an aside, I cannot get full flaps in flight.? Due to the geometry of the flap lever combined with my arthritic right shoulder, I just don't have the muscle or leverage to get that third notch, even when slowed down to pattern speeds.? So as a result I have been landing with the second notch, which works just fine.? But it would be interesting to see what full flaps does.?
The other thing about my plane is that the trim is not nearly strong enough to balance out the nose-down pitch change when adding flaps.? Full nose up trim and I still have to hold a lot of backpressure on the stick in order to stay on speed.? I am sure it would be even worse with full flaps.? Not hard to control, just a bit of a workout.? I guess I can use the exercise, so no worries.?
Joe
Ray,
I can't remember if I had tried 2 notches.? I want to say that I did and it really didn't help anything.? I think that perhaps after you get past 1 notch it is just pretty much all drag.? ? ?I will try it next time I fly and see what happens.? ? I almost always land with full flaps even in a strong crosswind.?
?
As an aside I have tried "reflexing" the flaps in cruise flight to see the effect.? ?Some claim that on some airplanes reflexing the flaps a little will increase speed.? ? ?I can say that it definitely does NOT add speed to my airplane.? When I built my plane my flap linkage allowed so that I could get about 1+ degree or so (guessing) of reflex. I did not create another hole in the arm but rather can just hold the flap lever down.? Before I put in the AP? I would try it but wasn't able to really tell cause it would change the angle of attack slightly and then I would be all over the place in altitude so it was hard to tell the effect.? ?After I installed my AP and can set altitude hold,? ?I have tried it and it slows me down a couple of knots when I reflex the flaps.? It was an interesting experiment.
?
There were a number of other threads about this some time ago
?
Keith
|
Re: Calbie Wood Metal Wings
Mine were 55#, with flaps and ailerons but without paint; some are heavier Red ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2025 3:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: Smoky via groups.io <lowea1@...>
Subject: Re: [TailwindForum] Calbie Wood Metal Wings? I think someone on the Forum said the W10 wood wings were 55# each. ? I also built metal wings for my Tailwind and made them wet wings. I concur with Bill that the plans had a note ¡°fuel goes here¡±. I recall a discussion of the weight of the wings as I was building and the weight of the metal wings was very close to the wooden wings.
? On Thursday, January 23, 2025, 12:54 PM, WILLIAM via <bbernard1945=[email protected]> wrote: No I did not. The plans just had a note saying place fuel here, with no guidance on exactly how to do it. Also, I had dealt with proseal before and had no desire to do it again. And Bill ¨C did you have fuel tanks in those wings? ? ? I built metal wings for my Tailwind. IIRC they weighed 63 pounds per panel, including flaps and ailerons. On 01/22/2025 4:44 PM CST Smoky via <lowea1@...> wrote: Are Calbie Wood metal wings generally heavier than standard W10 wings?? I know, I know, somebody is going to say at what span?? Well I¡¯m pretty sure the Calbie Wood plans are for wings of only one length.? I guess Wittman wings have been made in several slightly different spans.? Anyway, please shoot me a comparison, if you will.? Thanks. ? Tony
--
Bruce Butts
N525WT
|
Re: Calbie Wood Metal Wings
Just in case anyone's interested in an apples to oranges to pomegranates comparison, below are my numbers from when I painted my RV7 wings. I failed to weigh the ailerons, flaps and wingtips prior to paint, but there should be minimal weight gain since the entire wing only gained less than 3 lbs. This wing is obviously cantilever, and is rated for 1800 lbs gross in Utility Category (1600 lbs in 6G acro category).
?
Not intended to be a better/worse kind of post; I just always find it interesting to compare design techniques/choices for various missions. I'd love to see numbers for a 'strutted' wood wing rated at the same GW/category/stall speed.
?
Charlie
?
?
Weighed a painted vs unpainted wing ~115" long by ~100" circumference (~79.9 sq feet):
unpainted, with only the large pushrod installed and no flaps or aileron:
73.6 pounds
Fully painted wing; same conditions:
76.53 lbs
So... 46.88 oz over 73.6 sq ft = .6739 oz per sq ft for primer & paint.
Primer was single coat (Summit recommends 1-2 medium wet coats).
Finish was two relatively thin coats (Summit recommends 2-3 medium wet coats)?
Wingtips, flaps, & ailerons will add 20-25 sq feet of paint.
tip: ~6.5 lbs painted
flap ~5.8 lbs painted
Aileron: ~9.5 lbs painted
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Re: In Memory Of Russ Hasenbalg
I am sorry to see another member of our Tailwind family leave us in person but our memories of Russ will persist for a long time.? Sympathy for his family.
?
Keith
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Re: In Memory Of Russ Hasenbalg
Sorry to hear. I have many good memories of Russ going back to when he was building his W10. I got to show him my W10 at Baraboo just a few years ago.? I used to visit Baraboo long before the first Baraboo Tailwind Fly In.?
On Thursday, January 23, 2025 at 02:36:35 PM MST, Joe Norris via groups.io <joepilot13@...> wrote:
Very sorry to hear.? Godspeed Russ!!
Joe
On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 1:42?PM Michael Corso via <witt4130= [email protected]> wrote: With sympathy & friendship I am sad to announce that a fellow Tailwind pilot Russ Hasenbalg from Baraboo, Wisconsin has passed away.? (obituary attached)
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Re: Calbie Wood Metal Wings
I think someone on the Forum said the W10 wood wings were 55# each.
I also built metal wings for my Tailwind and made them wet wings. I concur with Bill that the plans had a note ¡°fuel goes here¡±. I recall a discussion of the weight of the wings as I was building and the weight of the metal wings was very close to the wooden wings.
Bruce Butts N525WT
On Thursday, January 23, 2025, 12:54 PM, WILLIAM via <bbernard1945=[email protected]> wrote:
No I did not. The plans just had a note saying place fuel here, with no guidance on exactly how to do it.
?
Also, I had dealt with proseal before and had no desire to do it again.
?
Bill
?
?
And Bill ¨C did you have fuel tanks in those wings?
?
?
I built metal wings for my Tailwind. IIRC they weighed 63 pounds per panel, including flaps and ailerons.
On 01/22/2025 4:44 PM CST Smoky via <lowea1@...> wrote:
Are Calbie Wood metal wings generally heavier than standard W10 wings?? I know, I know, somebody is going to say at what span?? Well I¡¯m pretty sure the Calbie Wood plans are for wings of only one length.? I guess Wittman wings have been made in several slightly different spans.? Anyway, please shoot me a comparison, if you will.? Thanks.
?
Tony
--
Bruce Butts
N525WT
|
Re: Calbie Wood Metal Wings
I also built metal wings for my Tailwind and made them wet wings. I concur with Bill that the plans had a note ¡°fuel goes here¡±. I recall a discussion of the weight of the wings as I was building and the weight of the metal wings was very close to the wooden wings.
Bruce Butts N525WT
On Thursday, January 23, 2025, 12:54 PM, WILLIAM via groups.io <bbernard1945@...> wrote:
No I did not. The plans just had a note saying place fuel here, with no guidance on exactly how to do it.
?
Also, I had dealt with proseal before and had no desire to do it again.
?
Bill
On 01/23/2025 6:26 AM CST Smoky via groups.io <lowea1@...> wrote:
?
?
And Bill ¨C did you have fuel tanks in those wings?
?
?
I built metal wings for my Tailwind. IIRC they weighed 63 pounds per panel, including flaps and ailerons.
On 01/22/2025 4:44 PM CST Smoky via groups.io <lowea1@...> wrote:
Are Calbie Wood metal wings generally heavier than standard W10 wings?? I know, I know, somebody is going to say at what span?? Well I¡¯m pretty sure the Calbie Wood plans are for wings of only one length.? I guess Wittman wings have been made in several slightly different spans.? Anyway, please shoot me a comparison, if you will.? Thanks.
?
Tony
--
Bruce Butts
N525WT
|
Re: In Memory Of Russ Hasenbalg
Very sorry to hear.? Godspeed Russ!!
Joe
On Thu, Jan 23, 2025 at 1:42?PM Michael Corso via <witt4130= [email protected]> wrote: With sympathy & friendship I am sad to announce that a fellow Tailwind pilot Russ Hasenbalg from Baraboo, Wisconsin has passed away.? (obituary attached)
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Tailwheel pushrod drawing
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Re: In Memory Of Russ Hasenbalg
So sad to hear this, I met Russ at one of the Baraboo gatherings and was an interesting person to talk to. He's got "blue skies" now and my condolences go out the family, may he rest in peace.
Alex and Karen
On Thursday, January 23, 2025 at 01:42:50 PM CST, Michael Corso via groups.io <witt4130@...> wrote:
With sympathy & friendship I am sad to announce that a fellow Tailwind pilot Russ Hasenbalg from Baraboo, Wisconsin has passed away.? (obituary attached)
|
In Memory Of Russ Hasenbalg
With sympathy & friendship I am sad to announce that a fellow Tailwind pilot Russ Hasenbalg from Baraboo, Wisconsin has passed away.? (obituary attached)
|
Re: Calbie Wood Metal Wings
No I did not. The plans just had a note saying place fuel here, with no guidance on exactly how to do it.
?
Also, I had dealt with proseal before and had no desire to do it again.
?
Bill
On 01/23/2025 6:26 AM CST Smoky via groups.io <lowea1@...> wrote:
?
?
And Bill ¨C did you have fuel tanks in those wings?
?
?
I built metal wings for my Tailwind. IIRC they weighed 63 pounds per panel, including flaps and ailerons.
On 01/22/2025 4:44 PM CST Smoky via groups.io <lowea1@...> wrote:
Are Calbie Wood metal wings generally heavier than standard W10 wings?? I know, I know, somebody is going to say at what span?? Well I¡¯m pretty sure the Calbie Wood plans are for wings of only one length.? I guess Wittman wings have been made in several slightly different spans.? Anyway, please shoot me a comparison, if you will.? Thanks.
?
Tony
|
Re: Hose for Oil Cooler - Source & Type
I used Eaton Aeroquip 303 hose and 491 fittings for the oil lines.? I covered with fire sleeve.? You can make the hoses yourself.? You need a mandrel and EAA has a how-to video on the process. I used Speedway Phoenix fittings for the low-pressure fuel lines.
On Thursday, January 23, 2025 at 09:52:34 AM CST, Kevin Southwick via groups.io <kevinsouthwick@...> wrote:
What type of oil cooler hose should I get for a Lyc O-360? Spruce has many types (of hose material) but I don't know which to get.
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Re: Hose for Oil Cooler - Source & Type
Kevin, Speedway motors have an array of Aeroquip hoses and fittings at a far less expensive price than ACS
On Thursday, January 23, 2025 at 10:12:09 AM CST, Tailwind14855 via groups.io <tailwind14855@...> wrote:
3000 psi aeroquip or equivalent with ends installed by hose shop. Use steel fittings at the cooler. The cooler is very soft aluminum and aluminum fittings tend to gall the aluminum and potentially could ruin the cooler.
On Thursday, January 23, 2025 at 08:52:34 AM MST, Kevin Southwick via groups.io <kevinsouthwick@...> wrote:
What type of oil cooler hose should I get for a Lyc O-360? Spruce has many types (of hose material) but I don't know which to get.
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Re: Hose for Oil Cooler - Source & Type
3000 psi aeroquip or equivalent with ends installed by hose shop. Use steel fittings at the cooler. The cooler is very soft aluminum and aluminum fittings tend to gall the aluminum and potentially could ruin the cooler.
On Thursday, January 23, 2025 at 08:52:34 AM MST, Kevin Southwick via groups.io <kevinsouthwick@...> wrote:
What type of oil cooler hose should I get for a Lyc O-360? Spruce has many types (of hose material) but I don't know which to get.
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Joe Norris
Keith Klos
Bruce Butts
Dennis Flamini
Alex Frizzell