Tartan 27' owners group

Outboard conversion

rickrothenbuhler@... (RICK ROTHENBUHLER) — Thu, 20 Jun 2024 10:01:46 -0700

Is anyone aware of a Tartan 27 that has tried the outboard installation into the aft cockpit locker? Like those done by James Baldwin on Alberg 30, Cape Dory 27, Pearson Triton, etc.

聽

He has stated that a dimension of 29" is needed from the transom to the rudder post for a tilt-up motor to fit, which on the T27 appears to be very close.

聽

Rick

Re: is this group still active?

scrottie@... (Scott Walters) — Mon, 29 Jan 2024 11:29:54 -0800

Only a member of the group, but groups.io took over for Yahoo! Groups,
which Yahoo! was claiming they were going to discontinue. If you're
getting emails from Yahoo!, you should be able to safely ignore them.
Your message went to the new groups.io list.

Your email included this link, in the footer:

/g/T27Owners/message/10254

That should work as a starting point for managing your subscription
and account. Otherwise, just sending emails like you did and
responding to other messages is most of how you access it.

The groups.io list was moderately active as of last season.

Hope that helps.

-scott

is this group still active?

bscott@... (Bob Scott) — Mon, 29 Jan 2024 11:05:04 -0800

I got notice from yahoo about, and indicated to keep me in,聽 but don鈥檛 know any longer how to access 鈥� if possible.聽聽 Thx, Bob Scott

Re: T 27 Rudder

blurise2@... (B P) — Tue, 21 Nov 2023 07:24:08 -0800

On a side note, This 74 T27 is in excellent condition, and will be for sale once I get this rudder situation done.

Located in Hudson Fla.

Re: T 27 Rudder

blurise2@... (B P) — Tue, 21 Nov 2023 07:22:54 -0800

Whoever sent the pics from Adam, has exactly what I was looking for!聽 And Thank you so very much!!!!

Re: T 27 Rudder

scrottie@... (Scott Walters) — Mon, 20 Nov 2023 08:07:36 -0800

Hi Warren,

I believe you and Adam are correct, and Adam claims first-hand
knowledge, so I'm glad to defer to that. Apologies for adding
confusion.

Looking at this pic again:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/50301159@N07/20102709389/in/album-72177720312748982/

I think the perspective made the shaft and the broom handle seem
divergent to me when they aren't. A directly overhead picture would
probably show them parallel. I was confused by that myself.

It sounds like OP is trying to do that same repair so I expect the
explanations will give them everything they need.

Thanks,
-scott

Re: T 27 Rudder

asant2@... (asant2) — Sun, 19 Nov 2023 21:26:50 -0800

In the case of my 1976, it was a sudden snap. I was in a friendly race with other cruisers in Elizabeth harbor in the Exumas when things got gusty, quickly, and I found myself over-canvassed and fighting a lot of weather helm to avoid some hazards until I could balance the rig (reef and raise some c/b).聽 I was able to anchor almost immediately and jury rig steerage via lines to a hole drilled in the aft corner.
Presumably failure wasn't just from those minutes of hard torque, but a few decades in the making.聽 The metal smith that made a new shaft said the original appeared cold-bent when it should have been hot-bent, or vice-versa -- again, if memory serves, and if that makes any sense; my head for metal is limited to music.聽
Prior to this, there was nothing to suggest failure was imminent, i.e. no rust or cracking anywhere, no delamination, etc.

Re: T 27 Rudder

wrsteinesq@... (Warren Stein) — Sun, 19 Nov 2023 17:14:23 -0800

Gosh, I鈥檓 not sure I鈥檓 understanding. 聽 Obviously the shaft is dead-parallel to the rudder鈥檚 outer, forward, edge; else, how would it rotate? 聽 So I鈥檓 unclear what the angular issue is. 聽I must be missing something, so please, genuinely, forgive me and help me understand.

On Sunday, November 19, 2023 at 06:35:40 PM EST, Scott Walters <scrottie@...> wrote:

I'm not sure how Svendson's had all of the info they needed to do the
repair for me, but they somehow did.聽 Maybe the shoe is worn enough
that slight variation in the shaft fits.聽 For lack of anything else,
the shaft needs to line up with the pin in the shoe.聽 Looking at pics,
I think maybe the angle the shaft leaves the body of the rudder may
have been the only info they had.

Worst case, line the rudder up and have a welding shop come up and
weld the shaft in place why the rudder in place, then fiberglass back
up over the repair.

It's safest to assume that each boat was custom fit and no parts are
production made.聽 Boats with longer production runs seem to still each
be different.

-scott

Re: T 27 Rudder

alan.g.schaeffer@... (Alan Schaeffer) — Sun, 19 Nov 2023 17:14:12 -0800

Having been up close to 3 Tartan 27 rudders, I do not believe they were custom fitted. They seem to be made to the plans, and very simple. I think this has already been said, but there seem to still be much conjecture about other factors, which seems to create some confusion. I hope this can help.

The only essential feature for correct alignment of the rudder is that the heel of the rudder post is in a direct line with the shaft in its tube. Look down the steering tube and see if the heel isn't exactly in line with the casting at the bottom of the keel into which it must fit. It should be. So, the only other dimensions needed to fabricate or repair an existing T27 rudder are: 1) the length of the rudder blade itself between the shoe on the keel and the tube in the hull above, and 2) the size/shape of the aperture for the prop. It really shouldn't be any more complicated than that. (Even if the rudder were completely missing the only other metric needed would be the lateral area.)聽

If the angle you are referring to is the angle the shaft takes to establish the aperture, this is much more arbitrary in that it is not critical to alignment at all, only clearance, so close approximation is fine. Don't get me wrong, large amounts have been written about apertures, but these are irrelevant to making a responsible repair to a T27 rudder. (For a completely different perspective on that, look up AtomVoyages, where he sings the praises of dispensing with the aperture altogether in favor of a well hidden auxiliary outboard in the lazaret!

Bottom line: I think if the heel of the rudder where it meets the keel is in a direct line with the shaft above it, then it will function correctly. It shouldn't have any angle and it shouldn't be any more complicated than that.聽

Best of luck!
Alan

Re: T 27 Rudder

scrottie@... (Scott Walters) — Sun, 19 Nov 2023 15:35:38 -0800

I'm not sure how Svendson's had all of the info they needed to do the
repair for me, but they somehow did. Maybe the shoe is worn enough
that slight variation in the shaft fits. For lack of anything else,
the shaft needs to line up with the pin in the shoe. Looking at pics,
I think maybe the angle the shaft leaves the body of the rudder may
have been the only info they had.

Worst case, line the rudder up and have a welding shop come up and
weld the shaft in place why the rudder in place, then fiberglass back
up over the repair.

It's safest to assume that each boat was custom fit and no parts are
production made. Boats with longer production runs seem to still each
be different.

-scott

Re: T 27 Rudder

asant2@... (asant2) — Sun, 19 Nov 2023 13:55:31 -0800

You'll see in my album that I had the same break and attempted a repair, having a metal shop replicate the shaft as best they could, but I never got a chance to install it back into the boat so I don't even know if we had the angle right, either!聽

As I recall, on mine, the break was such that setting the top piece back against the bottom piece made a very clean fit, enough that we were confident it could be replicated, and (again, if memory servers) it resulted in a straight line from the shaft top down to the shoe pin. I think I even stuck a deck brush handle down through the cockpit to confirm this.

Tartan or S&S may still have drawings, might be worth attempting to contact an old timer there, if any are still around.

On Sunday, November 19, 2023 at 12:48:11 PM PST, B P <blurise2@...> wrote:

Hi Warren, Thanks, What I need is the angle of the shaft out of the rudder. I had a shaft break, just below the rudder body, and when it was repaired, I think the angle is wrong. I had not seen one off the boat before the break, so I don't know what it's supposed to look like.

Thanks again!

Re: T 27 Rudder

blurise2@... (B P) — Sun, 19 Nov 2023 12:48:10 -0800

Thanks again!

Re: T 27 Rudder

scrottie@... (Scott Walters) — Sat, 18 Nov 2023 15:06:10 -0800

Same as Carl/Adam (asant2), very near the top, but still inside the
fiberglass. Bronze rudder post. 1965, rare west coast WD Schock
build (#93). Happened just about several years ago now. Twisting
force is concentrated there. Went in to the rocks, then got towed by
Tow Boat US (thankfully not a super blustery day where I was getting
pounded) to a small yard that sent the rudder to Svendon's (a large
and well known place out here that works on boats, small and large).
One more pintle and gudgeon would be most welcome, as Carl wrote
about. If I were far from anywhere, that would keep the rudder from
completely falling out, and help reduce how much of the force is on
the shaft. I understand that even well built boats from that era
start to fail about now, but different boats tend to fail in different
places. The Pearsons from the same era that club has deliminate and
one side of fiberglass comes free or falls off. Their rudders are
much better supported tho so they aren't failing at that point near
the top. I've seen hardwood cored rudders that swell up and split the
fiberglass. Probably the fiberglass at the largest stress point
slowly pulls free of the shaft allowing water intrusion. There's
another S&S design at the marina, a Columbia 29 mkII, that got some
interesting retrofits and looks like she's sailed a million miles,
that was converted to a transom hung rudder. If I ever have to deal
with this again, I'm thinking I'd like to do something like that.

Cheers,
-scott

Re: T 27 Rudder

cfdamm@... (Carl Damm) — Sat, 18 Nov 2023 13:41:32 -0800

Our rudder failed at the same point as Adam's. Where the bent shaft is encapsulated in fiberglass.聽 I think the combination of stress caused by bending the shaft and the encapsulating causes an issue in the longterm. As for warning signs it was already cracked and visible when we bought the boat.
I don't know what grade of stainless Tartan used. We used 316 in our repair. A friend of mine who owns a marine fab business did the stainless work. He could not bring himself to encapsulate the repair, so he welded the "flags" out of 316 on either side of the fiberglass. If you can imagine an old school pintle and gudgeion that is nicely faired in. The now external flags are through bolted with 316 that was then welded to the flags and ground flush. The rudder shaft lines up perfectly straight with shoe at the bottom.聽 Only the tiniest miss alignment could be tolerated. Hinges must always be in a straight line or they bind.
We never split the rudder open. The aperture was cut back to allow the new rudder post to lay in. It was welded to the original ss bottom post that runs down into the shoe. The top was not bent but a mitered weld which was strengthened by having the external flags connecting to both sections at the joint.聽
Basically the old Fiberglass rudder was ground down and slid into an external ss leading edge. Then pined through and the pins welded.
It's not how I imagined doing it, but when a friend that Engineers and builds boat components wants to help you out, you let them. In the days of old, this type of construction was common with external bronze straps faired into wood. I watched the disassembly of a Tayana rudder that was built this way with external straps over fiberglass and also one on a Contessa. So maybe it's not that radical.聽

Carl Damm
DAMSELv
1976 #593
Stuart Fl

Re: T 27 Rudder

scotthoehn@... (Scott Hoehn) — Sat, 18 Nov 2023 09:16:09 -0800

Can everyone who has had rudder failure chime in with what failed and why.聽

On the rudder my only issue had been a small split where it sits on the shoe. Easily fixed with a couple layers of fiberglass before it caused any major failure.聽

The photos are great. The rudder is is the only part of the boat I haven鈥檛 had to dig in to and was curious what was inside.聽

It鈥檚 a little hard to tell from the photo but I assume the old shaft was all stainless and failed because of water ingress and corrosion. I assumed my 1970 was bronze all the way through but could聽be wrong.聽

My other issues have been at the other end.聽

The bronze head itself split after too much force trying to shim the square key to get rid of the slop. Remedied by a new tiller head and tapped two 3/8鈥� bolts instead of square key. A through bolted 1/4鈥� bolt sheared three times on a passage last year. 聽

I also installed a bushing at the deck to eliminate the looseness. It is just a slice of 1鈥� cutlass ground down to the same angle and fiberglassed in.聽

Fixing the looseness has helped a lot with the autopilot.聽

Re: T 27 Rudder

scrottie@... (Scott Walters) — Sat, 18 Nov 2023 09:06:46 -0800

In https://www.flickr.com/photos/50301159@N07/20102709389/in/album-72177720312748982/
, it looks like the shaft is at a slightly different angle than your
broom handle. I guess the shoe pushes back against the leading edge
of the rudder a bit?

Since the group didn't have any rudder pics, clearly there's a need.
Thanks for sharing.

-scott

Re: T 27 Rudder

wrsteinesq@... (Warren Stein) — Fri, 17 Nov 2023 20:51:14 -0800

Might I ask specifically what info the OP is seeking? 聽I鈥檓 fairly confident it鈥檚 not just for photos to hang on the wall; but what information does the OP seek to glean from those photos?

On Friday, November 17, 2023 at 10:34:44 PM EST, asant2 via groups.io <asant2@...> wrote:

These may not help very much, but here you go.聽 Apparently I didn't take any good pics of the new shaft or glassing it in.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/50301159@N07/Hkp66qQf1Y

On Friday, November 17, 2023 at 11:13:05 AM PST, Adam <asant2@...> wrote:

Hi BP,

I happen to be in the midst of organizing old pics and think I've found my T27 archives, including some rudder pics from after the shaft failed, and during a semi-complete-rebuild. 1976 hull, after Tartan inverted the rudder shape so it's wider at the bottom. Will follow-up this weekend, stay tuned,

Adam

On Friday, November 17, 2023 at 10:03:56 AM PST, Warren Stein via groups.io <wrsteinesq@...> wrote:

I don鈥檛 have such a thing, but I HAVE previously droppd the rudder out. 聽Is there any info I might be able to help with?

On Friday, November 17, 2023 at 12:07:22 PM EST, B P <blurise2@...> wrote:

Hello all,,,

I am once again trying to reach someone who may have a pic of a T 27 Rudder OFF THE BOAT. I have a 1974, and am desperately seeking this info. Hoping someone who hasn't seen this request before may see now...

Thanks to all!!!

Re: T 27 Rudder

asant2@... (asant2) — Fri, 17 Nov 2023 19:34:43 -0800

These may not help very much, but here you go.聽 Apparently I didn't take any good pics of the new shaft or glassing it in.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/50301159@N07/Hkp66qQf1Y

On Friday, November 17, 2023 at 11:13:05 AM PST, Adam <asant2@...> wrote:

Hi BP,

Adam

On Friday, November 17, 2023 at 10:03:56 AM PST, Warren Stein via groups.io <wrsteinesq@...> wrote:

I don鈥檛 have such a thing, but I HAVE previously droppd the rudder out. 聽Is there any info I might be able to help with?

On Friday, November 17, 2023 at 12:07:22 PM EST, B P <blurise2@...> wrote:

Hello all,,,

Thanks to all!!!

Re: T 27 Rudder

patrick.mcgough@... (Patrick McGough) — Fri, 17 Nov 2023 11:56:22 -0800

Adam,

Could we all have access to your archived folders or could we put them in a repository to be shared?

Patrick

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone

Re: T 27 Rudder

asant2@... (asant2) — Fri, 17 Nov 2023 11:13:09 -0800

Hi BP,

Adam

On Friday, November 17, 2023 at 10:03:56 AM PST, Warren Stein via groups.io <wrsteinesq@...> wrote:

I don鈥檛 have such a thing, but I HAVE previously droppd the rudder out. 聽Is there any info I might be able to help with?

On Friday, November 17, 2023 at 12:07:22 PM EST, B P <blurise2@...> wrote:

Hello all,,,

Thanks to all!!!