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feathering prop

 

开云体育

Good morning all.
?
It's been over a year since I sold my T 27, Skywalker.? Still miss her.?? My C&C 34 is still a work in progress.? Glad to see the group is active.
?
When I sold the boat, I kept the two blade feathering prop because I thought it would fit on my C&C.? Unfortunately, the C&C has a 2:1 reduction drive on the A4, so it won't work.?
?
The prop is for sale.? It's in great shape, used only one season.? The nice thing about this prop is the short hub - it fits the aperture of the T27 and like boats.? New it sells for $1900.? I'm asking $950.?
?
I'll email pictures if anyone is interested.?
?
Happy sailing.
?
Chris A
C&C 34 4242
Skywalker II
Re: Chainplate relocation comment

 

ok a thought on the jib/genoa these big 130--150 genoa's are was over
rated just ask my crew when they have to sheet in...im going with a
hank on 90-100 jib......the heck with the big over sized genoa.

Steve

#220



--- In T27Owners@..., Matthias Klemm <matjes33@...> wrote:

I am so sorry Armando, she looks so spiffy. Good job!

I'm running the jib sheets inside only temporary when I know that
I
will be pointing all day long or at least for three hours or so.
But
to be honest that is not my preferred heading anyway and that's why
it
doesn't happen to often for me. I rather go some where else
instead.

Here is another project that's on my autumn list that might also
be
interesting for you "chainplate tinkerers". This should also
improve
pointing and tacking in general. And yes, I got permission from
what's
his name to do that ;-)

I will be installing an inner forestay but only 16" behind the
headstay, so that I don't have to rig running backstays. The
staysail
will be club footed and self-tacking. By doing that I will use the
genny and the staysail for long tacks (of which I envision plenty)
and
use the staysail only for short tacks, for example in bay areas.
Of
course tacking with the genny requires it to be furled in before
and
then again furled out after the tack. I have seen a good number of
boats rigged like that and one of them being Brad Mack's "Susan
B.".
Another good thing about the inner forestay is that it would be
quite
easy to fly a storm jib which I really like.

That's up for Oktober and I will report on it.

Matthias


On Apr 27, 2008, at 8:36 PM, Armando Morell wrote:

Well.... nobody has commented on Hull 555 pictures, so I join in
on
the chainplate discussion.

* No question regarding the improved stability/strenght of
moving
the chainplates out to the hull. I vote no for moving them
anywhere
else (I preffer to keep them where they are)

* The only reservation here is the implementation of this change.

* Have the proposers of movings the genoa track closer to the
boat
centerline considerd that our boat is fairly narrow already?. Is
it
possible that moving the genoa track may put the car to close to
the
boat centerline and this may not work with our max hull speed
and
sail plan. It is a matter of angles with our narrow boat the
current
position of the genoa track already positions the sheets fairly
close to the centerline.

* With the sheets inside the shrouds as I recall was also
suggested.
What happens on a reach or a run?

* Whatever you do make sure is not a chnge you can not recover
from.

Have fun and learn as much as you can.

An experiment is worth a thousand words and I just contributed
with
a few.....

am

__________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Re: Chainplate relocation comment

Matthias Klemm
 

I am so sorry Armando, she looks so spiffy. Good job!

I'm running the jib sheets inside only temporary when I know that I will be pointing all day long or at least for three hours or so. But to be honest that is not my?preferred?heading anyway and that's why it doesn't ?happen to often for me. I rather go some where else instead.

Here is another project that's on my autumn list that might also be interesting for you "chainplate tinkerers". This should also improve pointing and tacking in general. And yes, I got permission from what's his name to do that ;-)

I will be installing an inner forestay but only 16" behind the headstay, so that I don't have to?rig?running backstays. The staysail will be club footed and self-tacking. By doing that I will use the genny and the staysail for long tacks (of which I envision plenty) and use the staysail only for short tacks, for example in bay areas. Of course tacking with the genny requires it to be furled in before and then again furled out after the tack. I have seen a good number of boats rigged like that and one of them being Brad Mack's "Susan B.".??Another good thing about the inner forestay is that it would be quite easy to fly a storm jib which I really like.

That's up for Oktober and I will report on it.

Matthias


On Apr 27, 2008, at 8:36 PM, Armando Morell wrote:

Well.... nobody has commented on Hull 555 pictures, so I join in on the chainplate discussion.

* No question regarding the improved stability/strenght of moving the chainplates out to the hull. I vote no for moving them anywhere else (I preffer to keep them where they are)

* The only reservation here is the implementation of this change.?

* Have the proposers of movings the genoa track closer to the boat centerline considerd that our boat is fairly narrow already?. Is it possible that moving the genoa track may put the car to close to the boat centerline and this may not work with our max hull speed and sail plan. It is a matter of angles with our narrow boat the current position of the genoa track already positions the sheets fairly close to the centerline.

* With the sheets inside the shrouds as I recall was also suggested. What happens on a reach or a run?

* Whatever you do make sure is not a chnge you can not recover from.

Have fun and learn as much as you can.?

An experiment is worth a thousand words and I just contributed with a few.....

am

__________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and?
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.?
Chainplate relocation comment

 

Well.... nobody has commented on Hull 555 pictures, so I join in on the chainplate discussion.


* No question regarding the improved stability/strenght of moving the chainplates out to the hull. I vote no for moving them anywhere else (I preffer to keep them where they are)

* The only reservation here is the implementation of this change.

* Have the proposers of movings the genoa track closer to the boat centerline considerd that our boat is fairly narrow already?. Is it possible that moving the genoa track may put the car to close to the boat centerline and this may not work with our max hull speed and sail plan. It is a matter of angles with our narrow boat the current position of the genoa track already positions the sheets fairly close to the centerline.

* With the sheets inside the shrouds as I recall was also suggested. What happens on a reach or a run?

* Whatever you do make sure is not a chnge you can not recover from.

Have fun and learn as much as you can.

An experiment is worth a thousand words and I just contributed with a few.....

am


____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Re: Chainplates

ksmith4312
 

--- In T27Owners@..., <brian@...> wrote:

I think the myth of keeping your boat 110% stock is hogwash.
Besides
which, choices have been made for me that I have no control
over.. .and
others I don't give a damn about.



Example:

Air Conditioning. It's 98% with 100% humidity here in the summer.
I
put in AC, the hell with the v-berth floor. It was worthless
anyway.
Not like I used to hold dance parties there.



Diesel engine: Someone else replaced the atomic bomb..... I'll
keep the
Volvo mess running... if it ever dies I promise it is headed to
scrap
and I'll put in electric with a small diesel genset.



Deck Paint: I used a new acrylic polymer... looks great, was easy to
apply, and gets me out of messing with gel coat defects from 1964.



Roller Furling: Yea, I put that on too. I am out to have a good
time
and I want my friends to enjoy it too. Playing Bouncing Betty Sail
Retrieval in a 2 to 3 foot chop trying to retrieve a hank-on jib is
a
great way to ensure non-sailors never come back. Or if I fall over
that
I never come back... lol.



Bimini: I installed one to make summer sailing more enjoyable. I
had a
choice of moving the main boom up 2' or constantly ducking in the
cockpit. The old sailmaker advised that I move the boom up. I did
and
it was great.



Main Halyard: I replace the wire halyard with a high-tech line
(technora
core). The line is rated for an 1800 lbs breaking strength. I
think it
will do just fine, but may need to be replaced every few years...
which
is still better than getting cut by meathooks.



My point here is that I bough the boat to enjoy it. My decisions
about
maintenance are driven by usability, maintenance impact, and doing
it
"right" in my eyes. Many of the expenses will never pay back. I
won't
get an extra $1000 for the bimini... but I'll get an extra few dozen
summer sailing days when it's hot as hell and nobody wants to bake
in
the sun. I don't like to cut corners on safety or rigging.



I agree, I'm not S&S or a naval architect. That is why I'm
consulting
with my rigger who is locally well respected. All he does is
rigging.
I've also read some of the sail design and sail theory books and I
know
enough to say that moving shrouds in increases the load and moving
it
out makes the mast more stable but compromises pointing ability.
Seeing
as my centerboard is out (and on the to-do list) .... Oh hell I
gave up
on J-Boat pointing when I bought a Tartan. Lol. I also gave up on
being stuck in the mud with a 7' keel when I bought a 3.5' draft
Tartan.
Lol. It's nice to be able to sail when nobody else will dare go
out for
fear of being stuck. We get northern winds in the winter that blow
the
water out of the bay.... By a foot or so which is critical to some
of
the deep draft guys.



I believe that the chainplates are one of the few mistakes in the T-
27
design. I think that at the time they didn't expect the boats to be
going strong 42+ years later; figured that sealing it in glass was
the
right way to do it; didn't know about crevice corrosion; didn't know
much about fiberglass (the boat is basically a wood boat in glass);
and
didn't want to move the bulkhead back 6". If the bulkhead had been
moved back 6" it would have been exterior bulkhead mounted
chainplates
like you see in a variety of other boats.



At any rate, I know from test holes I drilled that there are issues
lurking in the chainplates. I just hope to get to them before they
fail. I do test them regularly before I go out by pulling on the
stays
fairly hard and listening and watching. I consider that just common
sense maintenance. I know that the hull can handle the loads...
if
you look at the fore and aft stays they are externally mounted.
Besides,
the stress is not being held by the deck, so it is being
transferred to
the hull anyhow. My other concern is making a mounting block so
that I
don't have to cut the teak toerail and deck/hull flange. I also
think
it's useful to factor in that I do have a professional rigger with a
good reputation, that I trust, who is saying that yea it's a good
idea.
At the same time, it's important to realize that while S&S did
design
our boats, it isn't quite the same as one of their one -off
commissioned
designs. I'm almost certain that the inboard chainplates was a
compromise to deliver theoretical pointing.



Oh and btw, I paid $3500 for my boat 3 years ago.... Now I've put
enough
into it to get to market value... new sail, bimini, ac, etc etc
etc... I
think the FMV is about $12K to $15K depending on your patience and
the
buyer and the time of the year. When I go to sell it, if I get
most of
my money out, I'll be happy. The difference between what it cost
me,
and what I got is the true cost of going sailing. If it mattered
to me,
I probably wouldn't own a boat. After all, it's an intrinsically
expensive activity.



Hotpuppy Too, #71



Brian Greul
Brain;

Wow, a man after my own heart. I have done some of what you have and
some is still on the to do list.

As for the chainplates some compromise would seem to be in order. In
board is definitely out however outboard is doable. Have been
thinking perhaps a combo of both with thru bolts and spacers/shims
not sure till the time comes to open the knee wall. One thing RIGGER
MUST APPROVE.

Does the A/C unit fit right in the spot "V-berth floor" is it
actually called a floor? Floor LOL. Would have to move some
electrical for access purposes.
Re: Chainplates

CHRISTIAN BECKER
 

开云体育

I would like to state that I am not changing my position as stated below.
?
I have had the opportunity to see on other boats that are somewhat newer in design and designed by naval engineers like those at Erikson whereby the chain plates are part of a weldment of stainless steel (316) that is glassed into the boat with carbon fiber and epoxy. The weldment is bent and reinforced in such a manner that the actual chain plates as we know them, come through the deck inboard of the side of the boat, some what. There are brackets and angle pieces. In most cases, these are also attached to bulkheads and other fittings. They are a work of engineering and art.
?
I know of a well known builder in Europe back in the early 60's that had problems with these structures. When the owner or inspectors were away, the men would leave out the brackets. In doing so, the cantilevered part would come up out of the deck. To repair this was hard work. One would return the portion above deck and then install without welding stainless steel braces. This required drilling and blind tapping in such a manner that the side of the boat was pierced. I know,? because I worked on many of those boats one summer. Many drills and tapes were used as well as drinking water.
?
I hope that I have proved an insight into these areas.
?
Chris Becker

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 4:06 PM
Subject: Re: [T27Owners] Re: Chainplates

Amen!
--- CHRISTIAN BECKER <uni@cyburban.com> wrote:

> I have a long history with S & S boats. As a result,
> I would like to say that there are few on the this
> world that can suggest making a change to a S&S
> boat, unless they are a fully trained yacht designer
> and engineer. Rod and Company tend not to only
> release designs that are correct in all respect ts
> at the time of production, assuming that they were
> produced under the full direction and guidance of
> S&S. That goes with Tartan and Swan, including many
> custom built boats.
>
> If one wants to make a change, it would be good to
> have a talk with S&S about the problem. They have
> designed many other boats like an of the Tartans
> including the Tartan 27 and only after much
> discussion have elected to suggest a change.
>
> My dear sister who is up there in heaven with Rod
> and company, used to say when these subjects came
> up, you are no XXX XXXX yacht designer and naval
> engineer to make a change that many esteemed people
> have worked on for many years and you are not one of
> them. I am sure that one can read between the lines.
>
> I have looked at many S&S boats and have seen
> changes in the number and the locations of lowers
> etc. The location is there for a functional point of
> attachment. The location point has been engineered
> if not changed in the build, to support the
> requirements. I take the position of if S&S put it
> there, then I need to know why they removed it and
> what are the consequences of such an action.
>
> I have a lot of knowledge of many boats. I just
> purchased a Tartan 27 and will be looking forward to
> getting it in the water and to its home port. I see
> many good details and others that are not too good.
> I feel that the areas that are not too good as areas
> that reflect a change from the build. Loads and
> bearings of the board pin is an example. The boat
> has a 1/2" bronze pin in it. It is very soft and is
> bent. The support and the contact portion in the
> board and in each side of the trunk have to be
> reviewed in detail. I am working on a set of
> bearings to fit into what was steel pipe fittings
> being replaced with bronze as well as an insert into
> the board where the pin goes through. These changes
> will provide the board to move as designed with
> proper (100%) support and thus no bending or other
> problems. A lot of silicone lub will be used on the
> pin and the contact surfaces.
>
> An other changes are standard things that the boat
> was designed for and should have like full spinnaker
> gear.
>
> Cannot wait to get the boat in the water and to our
> harbor.
>
> Regards to all,
> Chris Becker
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: brian@txshirts.com
> To: T27Owners@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 8:40 AM
> Subject: [T27Owners] Re: Chainplates
>
>
>
> I've been waiting for my rigger to go give me his
> opinion and thoughts on moving my shrouds to the
> sides of the hull. The biggest reason to move them
> inboard is to aid in pointing. It lets you sheet
> closer to the wind. All of which sounds dandy if
> you subscribe to the "taking a crap makes you go
> faster because it saves weight" theory. The reality
> is that the Tartan 27 doesn't point worth a damn
> anyway. When I bought a Tartan I made a choice to
> have a sturdy boat capable of doing anything but
> sailing to wind pretty damn well. So, my thinking
> is that I'd rather have something that is
> structurally sound and involves a minimum of
> fiberglass work in strange places and frees the deck
> of one of the more annoying places to walk.
>
>
>
> I had to go up the mast twice this weekend. The
> first time was to retrieve my jib halyard. In the
> haste to take down the jib from the furling unit we
> sent the halyard to the top of the mast. GRRR. The
> furler didn't unwind all the way at the dock and it
> needed my expert assistance to unfurl it. I forgot
> to secure the jib halyard to something, and as soon
> as the furler came around the sail shot down and the
> halyard flew up the mast, neatly coiled.
>
>
>
> I also replaced my wire main halyard with a
> technora cored 1/8" line. It has a 1800# breaking
> strength so I expect it to be comparable to the
> stainless steel. I did modify the drum of my main
> halyard winch to give me a tie off point. The
> sheave at the top appears to be frozen, but the
> profile is setup for rope. The only caveat here is
> that it is a very tiny passage, so I ended up using
> my VHF antenna to fish the line out of the "gate".
>
>
>
> The only time I truly got scared (aside from the
> first 30 seconds) is when my neighbors backed down
> the slipway with their 45 foot hunter. I had never
> seen them move that boat and it never occurred to me
> that yes, that was how it got there. Needless to
> say my perspective from 35 feet off the water was
> interesting. Lol. I thought they were going to
> brush me at first and the last place I want to be is
> tied to the top of the mast.
>
>
>
> I do recommend going up once a year and looking
> at your fittings. Unless of course you unstep your
> mast annually in which case you are bringing the
> fittings down to you. For some of us in
> semi-tropical waters the mast never comes out. As I
> explained to my friend who hauled me up the mast,
> BOAT means Bring Out Another Thousand. The Bring
> Out Another Thousand Yard is always happy to help
> you work on your boat, and strangely the projects
> wind up being nearly in increments of a thousand
> dollars. Lol.
>
>
>
> Brian Greul
>
> Texas Shirt Company www.txshirts.com
>
> 713-802-0369 / 713-861-6261 (fax)
>
> Targeted, Effective Promotions to help you grow
> your brand
>
>
>

Re: Chainplates

[email protected]
 

开云体育

I think the myth of keeping your boat 110% stock is hogwash.? Besides which, choices have been made for me that I have no control over.. .and others I don’t give a damn about.

?

Example:

Air Conditioning.? It’s 98% with 100% humidity here in the summer.? I put in AC, the hell with the v-berth floor.? It was worthless anyway. ?Not like I used to hold dance parties there.

?

Diesel engine:? Someone else replaced the atomic bomb….. I’ll keep the Volvo mess running… if it ever dies I promise it is headed to scrap and I’ll put in electric with a ?small diesel genset.

?

Deck Paint: I used a new acrylic polymer… looks great, was easy to apply, and gets me out of messing with gel coat defects from 1964.

?

Roller Furling: Yea, I put that on too.? I am out to have a good time and I want my friends to enjoy it too.? Playing Bouncing Betty Sail Retrieval in a 2 to 3 foot chop trying to retrieve a hank-on jib is a great way to ensure non-sailors never come back.? Or if I fall over that I never come back… lol.?

?

Bimini: I installed one to make summer sailing more enjoyable.? I had a choice of moving the main boom up 2’ or constantly ducking in the cockpit.? The old sailmaker advised that I move the boom up.? I did and it was great.?

?

Main Halyard: I replace the wire halyard with a high-tech line (technora core).? The line is rated for an 1800 lbs breaking strength.? I think it will do just fine, but may need to be replaced every few years… which is still better than getting cut by meathooks.

?

My point here is that I bough the boat to enjoy it.? My decisions about maintenance are driven by usability, maintenance impact, and doing it “right” in my eyes.? Many of the expenses will never pay back.? I won’t get an extra $1000 for the bimini… but I’ll get an extra few dozen summer sailing days when it’s hot as hell and nobody wants to bake in the sun.? I don’t like to cut corners on safety or rigging.

?

I agree, I’m not S&S or a naval architect.? That is why I’m consulting with my rigger who is locally well respected.? All he does is rigging.? I’ve also read some of the sail design and sail theory books and I know enough to say that moving shrouds in increases the load and moving it out makes the mast more stable but compromises pointing ability.? Seeing as my centerboard is out (and on the to-do list) …. Oh hell I gave up on J-Boat pointing when I bought a Tartan.? Lol.? I also gave up on being stuck in the mud with a 7’ keel when I bought a 3.5’ draft Tartan. Lol.? It’s nice to be able to sail when nobody else will dare go out for fear of being stuck.? We get northern winds in the winter that blow the water out of the bay…. By a foot or so which is critical to some of the deep draft guys.?

?

I believe that the chainplates are one of the few mistakes in the T-27 design.? I think that at the time they didn’t expect the boats to be going strong 42+ years later; figured that sealing it in glass was the right way to do it; didn’t know about crevice corrosion; didn’t know much about fiberglass (the boat is basically a wood boat in glass); and didn’t want to move the bulkhead back 6”.? If the bulkhead had been moved back 6” it would have been exterior bulkhead mounted chainplates like you see in a variety of other boats.

?

At any rate, I know from test holes I drilled that there are issues lurking in the chainplates.? I just hope to get to them before they fail.? I do test them regularly before I go out by pulling on the stays fairly hard and listening and watching.? I consider that just common sense maintenance.??? I know that the hull can handle the loads… if you look at the fore and aft stays they are externally mounted. Besides, the stress is not being held by the deck, so it is being transferred to the hull anyhow.? My other concern is making a mounting block so that I don’t have to cut the teak toerail and deck/hull flange.? I also think it’s useful to factor in that I do have a professional rigger with a good reputation, that I trust, who is saying that yea it’s a good idea.? At the same time, it’s important to realize that while S&S did design our boats, it isn’t quite the same as one of their one –off commissioned designs.? I’m almost certain that the inboard chainplates was a compromise to deliver theoretical pointing.

?

Oh and btw, I paid $3500 for my boat 3 years ago…. Now I’ve put enough into it to get to market value… new sail, bimini, ac, etc etc etc… I think the FMV is about $12K to $15K depending on your patience and the buyer and the time of the year.? When I go to sell it, if I get most of my money out, I’ll be happy.? The difference between what it cost me, and what I got is the true cost of going sailing.? If it mattered to me, I probably wouldn’t own a boat.? After all, it’s an intrinsically expensive activity.

?

Hotpuppy Too, #71

?

Brian Greul
Re: Chainplates

Matthias Klemm
 

Christian,

There is no doubt about the competence of S&S designs. There is also no doubt about that the original T27 chainplates are well designed. But for me they are still only a compromise. For most of sailing history chainplates have been on the outside of the hull and I assume for a good reason. The only good reason I can think of for moving them inside is the advantage of closer jib sheet leads if you don't want to go through the trouble of running them temporarily inside when sailing close hauled.

Matthias


On Apr 25, 2008, at 3:48 PM, CHRISTIAN BECKER wrote:


I have a long history with S & S boats. As a result, I would like to say that there are few on the this world that can suggest making a change to a S&S boat, unless they are a fully trained yacht designer and engineer. Rod and Company tend not to only release designs that are? correct in all respect ts at the time of production, assuming that they were produced under the full direction and guidance of S&S. That goes with Tartan and Swan, including many custom built boats.
?
If one wants to make a change, it would be good to have a talk with S&S about the problem. They have designed many other boats like an of the Tartans including the Tartan 27 and only after much discussion have elected to suggest a change.
?
My dear sister who is up there in heaven with Rod and company, used to say when these subjects came up, you are no XXX XXXX yacht designer and naval engineer to make a change that many esteemed people have worked on for many years and you are not one of them. I am sure that one can read between the lines.
?
I have looked at many S&S boats and have seen changes in the number and the locations of lowers etc. The location is there for a functional point of attachment. The location point has been engineered if not changed in the build, to support the requirements. I take the position of if S&S put it there, then I need to know why they removed it and what are the consequences of such an action.
?
I have a lot of knowledge of many boats. I just purchased a Tartan 27 and will be looking forward to getting it in the water and to its home port. I see many good details and others that are not too good. I feel that the areas that are not too good as areas that reflect a change from the build. Loads and bearings of the board pin is an example. The boat has a 1/2" ?bronze pin in it. It is very soft and is bent. The support and the contact portion in the board and in each side of the trunk have to be reviewed in detail. I am working on a set of bearings to fit into what was steel pipe fittings being replaced with bronze as well as an insert into the board where the pin goes through. These changes will provide the board to move as designed with proper (100%) support and thus no bending or other problems. A lot of silicone lub will be used on the pin and the contact surfaces.
?
An other changes are standard things that the boat was designed for and should have like full spinnaker gear.
?
Cannot wait to get the boat in the water and to our harbor.
?
Regards to all,
Chris Becker
----- Original Message -----
Sent:?Thursday, April 24, 2008 8:40 AM
Subject:?[T27Owners] Re: Chainplates


I’ve been waiting for my rigger to go give me his opinion and thoughts on moving my shrouds to the sides of the hull.? The biggest reason to move them inboard is to aid in pointing.? It lets you sheet closer to the wind.? All of which sounds dandy if you subscribe to the “taking a crap makes you go faster because it saves weight” theory.? The reality is that the Tartan 27 doesn’t point worth a damn anyway.? When I bought a Tartan I made a choice to have a sturdy boat capable of doing anything but sailing to wind pretty damn well.? So, my thinking is that I’d rather have something that is structurally sound and involves a minimum of fiberglass work in strange places and frees the deck of one of the more annoying places to walk.

I had to go up the mast twice this weekend.? The first time was to retrieve my jib halyard.? In the haste to take down the jib from the furling unit we sent the halyard to the top of the mast.? GRRR.? The furler didn’t unwind all the way at the dock and it needed my expert assistance to unfurl it.? I forgot to secure the jib halyard to something, and as soon as the furler came around the sail shot down and the halyard flew up the mast, neatly coiled.?

I also replaced my wire main halyard with a technora cored 1/8” line.? It has a 1800# breaking strength so I expect it to be comparable to the stainless steel.? I did modify the drum of my main halyard winch to give me a tie off point.? The sheave at the top appears to be frozen, but the profile is setup for rope.? The only caveat here is that it is a very tiny passage, so I ended up using my VHF antenna to fish the line out of the “gate”.

The only time I truly got scared (aside from the first 30 seconds) is when my neighbors backed down the slipway with their 45 foot hunter.? I had never seen them move that boat and it never occurred to me that yes, that was how it got there.? Needless to say my perspective from 35 feet off the water was interesting.? Lol.? I thought they were going to brush me at first and the last place I want to be is tied to the top of the mast.

I do recommend going up once? a year and looking at your fittings.? Unless of course you unstep your mast annually in which case you are bringing the fittings down to you.? For some of us in semi-tropical waters the mast never comes out.? As I explained to my friend who hauled me up the mast, BOAT means Bring Out Another Thousand.? The Bring Out Another Thousand Yard is always happy to help you work on your boat, and strangely the projects wind up being nearly in increments of a thousand dollars.? Lol.

Brian Greul

Texas Shirt Company?

713-802-0369 / 713-861-6261 (fax)

Targeted, Effective Promotions to help you grow your brand
Re: Chainplates

 

Amen!
--- CHRISTIAN BECKER <uni@...> wrote:

I have a long history with S & S boats. As a result,
I would like to say that there are few on the this
world that can suggest making a change to a S&S
boat, unless they are a fully trained yacht designer
and engineer. Rod and Company tend not to only
release designs that are correct in all respect ts
at the time of production, assuming that they were
produced under the full direction and guidance of
S&S. That goes with Tartan and Swan, including many
custom built boats.

If one wants to make a change, it would be good to
have a talk with S&S about the problem. They have
designed many other boats like an of the Tartans
including the Tartan 27 and only after much
discussion have elected to suggest a change.

My dear sister who is up there in heaven with Rod
and company, used to say when these subjects came
up, you are no XXX XXXX yacht designer and naval
engineer to make a change that many esteemed people
have worked on for many years and you are not one of
them. I am sure that one can read between the lines.

I have looked at many S&S boats and have seen
changes in the number and the locations of lowers
etc. The location is there for a functional point of
attachment. The location point has been engineered
if not changed in the build, to support the
requirements. I take the position of if S&S put it
there, then I need to know why they removed it and
what are the consequences of such an action.

I have a lot of knowledge of many boats. I just
purchased a Tartan 27 and will be looking forward to
getting it in the water and to its home port. I see
many good details and others that are not too good.
I feel that the areas that are not too good as areas
that reflect a change from the build. Loads and
bearings of the board pin is an example. The boat
has a 1/2" bronze pin in it. It is very soft and is
bent. The support and the contact portion in the
board and in each side of the trunk have to be
reviewed in detail. I am working on a set of
bearings to fit into what was steel pipe fittings
being replaced with bronze as well as an insert into
the board where the pin goes through. These changes
will provide the board to move as designed with
proper (100%) support and thus no bending or other
problems. A lot of silicone lub will be used on the
pin and the contact surfaces.

An other changes are standard things that the boat
was designed for and should have like full spinnaker
gear.

Cannot wait to get the boat in the water and to our
harbor.

Regards to all,
Chris Becker
----- Original Message -----
From: brian@...
To: T27Owners@...
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 8:40 AM
Subject: [T27Owners] Re: Chainplates



I've been waiting for my rigger to go give me his
opinion and thoughts on moving my shrouds to the
sides of the hull. The biggest reason to move them
inboard is to aid in pointing. It lets you sheet
closer to the wind. All of which sounds dandy if
you subscribe to the "taking a crap makes you go
faster because it saves weight" theory. The reality
is that the Tartan 27 doesn't point worth a damn
anyway. When I bought a Tartan I made a choice to
have a sturdy boat capable of doing anything but
sailing to wind pretty damn well. So, my thinking
is that I'd rather have something that is
structurally sound and involves a minimum of
fiberglass work in strange places and frees the deck
of one of the more annoying places to walk.



I had to go up the mast twice this weekend. The
first time was to retrieve my jib halyard. In the
haste to take down the jib from the furling unit we
sent the halyard to the top of the mast. GRRR. The
furler didn't unwind all the way at the dock and it
needed my expert assistance to unfurl it. I forgot
to secure the jib halyard to something, and as soon
as the furler came around the sail shot down and the
halyard flew up the mast, neatly coiled.



I also replaced my wire main halyard with a
technora cored 1/8" line. It has a 1800# breaking
strength so I expect it to be comparable to the
stainless steel. I did modify the drum of my main
halyard winch to give me a tie off point. The
sheave at the top appears to be frozen, but the
profile is setup for rope. The only caveat here is
that it is a very tiny passage, so I ended up using
my VHF antenna to fish the line out of the "gate".



The only time I truly got scared (aside from the
first 30 seconds) is when my neighbors backed down
the slipway with their 45 foot hunter. I had never
seen them move that boat and it never occurred to me
that yes, that was how it got there. Needless to
say my perspective from 35 feet off the water was
interesting. Lol. I thought they were going to
brush me at first and the last place I want to be is
tied to the top of the mast.



I do recommend going up once a year and looking
at your fittings. Unless of course you unstep your
mast annually in which case you are bringing the
fittings down to you. For some of us in
semi-tropical waters the mast never comes out. As I
explained to my friend who hauled me up the mast,
BOAT means Bring Out Another Thousand. The Bring
Out Another Thousand Yard is always happy to help
you work on your boat, and strangely the projects
wind up being nearly in increments of a thousand
dollars. Lol.



Brian Greul

Texas Shirt Company www.txshirts.com

713-802-0369 / 713-861-6261 (fax)

Targeted, Effective Promotions to help you grow
your brand
Re: Chainplates

CHRISTIAN BECKER
 

开云体育

I have a long history with S & S boats. As a result, I would like to say that there are few on the this world that can suggest making a change to a S&S boat, unless they are a fully trained yacht designer and engineer. Rod and Company tend not to only release designs that are? correct in all respect ts at the time of production, assuming that they were produced under the full direction and guidance of S&S. That goes with Tartan and Swan, including many custom built boats.
?
If one wants to make a change, it would be good to have a talk with S&S about the problem. They have designed many other boats like an of the Tartans including the Tartan 27 and only after much discussion have elected to suggest a change.
?
My dear sister who is up there in heaven with Rod and company, used to say when these subjects came up, you are no XXX XXXX yacht designer and naval engineer to make a change that many esteemed people have worked on for many years and you are not one of them. I am sure that one can read between the lines.
?
I have looked at many S&S boats and have seen changes in the number and the locations of lowers etc. The location is there for a functional point of attachment. The location point has been engineered if not changed in the build, to support the requirements. I take the position of if S&S put it there, then I need to know why they removed it and what are the consequences of such an action.
?
I have a lot of knowledge of many boats. I just purchased a Tartan 27 and will be looking forward to getting it in the water and to its home port. I see many good details and others that are not too good. I feel that the areas that are not too good as areas that reflect a change from the build. Loads and bearings of the board pin is an example. The boat has a 1/2" ?bronze pin in it. It is very soft and is bent. The support and the contact portion in the board and in each side of the trunk have to be reviewed in detail. I am working on a set of bearings to fit into what was steel pipe fittings being replaced with bronze as well as an insert into the board where the pin goes through. These changes will provide the board to move as designed with proper (100%) support and thus no bending or other problems. A lot of silicone lub will be used on the pin and the contact surfaces.
?
An other changes are standard things that the boat was designed for and should have like full spinnaker gear.
?
Cannot wait to get the boat in the water and to our harbor.
?
Regards to all,
Chris Becker

----- Original Message -----
From: brian@...
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 8:40 AM
Subject: [T27Owners] Re: Chainplates

I’ve been waiting for my rigger to go give me his opinion and thoughts on moving my shrouds to the sides of the hull.? The biggest reason to move them inboard is to aid in pointing.? It lets you sheet closer to the wind.? All of which sounds dandy if you subscribe to the “taking a crap makes you go faster because it saves weight” theory.? The reality is that the Tartan 27 doesn’t point worth a damn anyway.? When I bought a Tartan I made a choice to have a sturdy boat capable of doing anything but sailing to wind pretty damn well.? So, my thinking is that I’d rather have something that is structurally sound and involves a minimum of fiberglass work in strange places and frees the deck of one of the more annoying places to walk.

I had to go up the mast twice this weekend.? The first time was to retrieve my jib halyard.? In the haste to take down the jib from the furling unit we sent the halyard to the top of the mast.? GRRR.? The furler didn’t unwind all the way at the dock and it needed my expert assistance to unfurl it.? I forgot to secure the jib halyard to something, and as soon as the furler came around the sail shot down and the halyard flew up the mast, neatly coiled.?

I also replaced my wire main halyard with a technora cored 1/8” line.? It has a 1800# breaking strength so I expect it to be comparable to the stainless steel.? I did modify the drum of my main halyard winch to give me a tie off point.? The sheave at the top appears to be frozen, but the profile is setup for rope.? The only caveat here is that it is a very tiny passage, so I ended up using my VHF antenna to fish the line out of the “gate”.

The only time I truly got scared (aside from the first 30 seconds) is when my neighbors backed down the slipway with their 45 foot hunter.? I had never seen them move that boat and it never occurred to me that yes, that was how it got there.? Needless to say my perspective from 35 feet off the water was interesting.? Lol.? I thought they were going to brush me at first and the last place I want to be is tied to the top of the mast.

I do recommend going up once? a year and looking at your fittings.? Unless of course you unstep your mast annually in which case you are bringing the fittings down to you.? For some of us in semi-tropical waters the mast never comes out.? As I explained to my friend who hauled me up the mast, BOAT means Bring Out Another Thousand.? The Bring Out Another Thousand Yard is always happy to help you work on your boat, and strangely the projects wind up being nearly in increments of a thousand dollars.? Lol.

Brian Greul

Texas Shirt Company

713-802-0369 / 713-861-6261 (fax)

Targeted, Effective Promotions to help you grow your brand
Hull #2 1961 "spindrift" at one point

kerlandsen
 

In 1978 my dad bought Hull #2. We sold it in 1991 to a guy named David
R. from Milford, CT. I would be curious where it has ended up now.
The sail number was 838, but only the spinnaker had a number.

I am investigating a larger boat for my family and I came across a T27
owners list and figured I would check it out.

Also shifting thru my dad's stuff, I found the bill of sale from 1991
and thought to ask.

Thanks,
Kyle Erlandsen
Re: Chainplates and Staysails

 

Dear ksmith432 et al,

Sorry I wasn't clearer: I meant to say that I disagree with anyone assuming that keeping the deck seal healthy means the chainplates will be reliable for decades more.?

Curious to hear how the move to hull mounting the plates works out for you. I had chainplate envy for a long time walking the docks, dreading opening up the knees. Aesthetically and structurally it is much more appealing. Decisions on our boats are almost always a compromise, and all the reasons you give to make that move seem valid....with the noted sacrifice of pointing.?Please post pics if you do maker that alteration.

?I never tried running the sheets inside the shrouds, but look forward to trying that. We have jam cleats on the top of the forward edge of the cockpit combing (intended for a staysail?) that might work in light air.

Anyone try a staysail on their Tartan? Always been curious about that.

Marty

Marty Levenson, ba, bcatr.
registered art therapist

604.736.1972
____________________________


On 25-Apr-08, at 7:17 AM, Matthias Klemm wrote:

I see the point of staying with the original chainplate setup if you are racing or just want to keep your boat like it came from the factory. From the riggers point of view the outside chainplates are the better solution and as a sailor I certainly like the unobstructed walk forward. As a cruiser the addition of an extra set lowers is giving me peace of mind and?eliminate?pumping of the mast.

By the way, Marty, if I see the need to point better I simply run my jib sheet inside of the shrouds which works like charm.

Matthias
Re: Chainplates

Matthias Klemm
 

I see the point of staying with the original chainplate setup if you are racing or just want to keep your boat like it came from the factory. From the riggers point of view the outside chainplates are the better solution and as a sailor I certainly like the unobstructed walk forward. As a cruiser the addition of an extra set lowers is giving me peace of mind and?eliminate?pumping of the mast.

By the way, Marty, if I see the need to point better I simply run my jib sheet inside of the shrouds which works like charm.

Matthias





On Apr 25, 2008, at 1:46 AM, Marty Levenson wrote:

Actually, I disagree. Our 1968 chainplates looked fine from the outside, but when I opened up the encased knee the bolts were half gone...rusted away. There is no way to know if water has ever migrated there (even through wet core?) through the years, without looking.?


I replaced the knees with epoxy encased plywood and rebolted using ss. The bolts now go through the fiberglass as well as the knee. I'm sure you can do something quite safe taking the shroud out to the hull, but why sacrifice any pointing ability? The port knee I did mostly using a grinder and it was really arduous and suffocating! For the starboard knee I found a better system: drilled a series of approx 3/8" holes edge to edge along the inboard edge of the knee and then pried it apart with a wide chisel. Much easier. After replacing the knee, able to pull the two "faces" of that glass back together and through bolt.

Hope that is useful,
Marty

"Poseidon" Vancouver


On 24-Apr-08, at 6:48 PM, ksmith4312 wrote:

My rigger says outboard is best. I kind of like that idea. However?
IMO having lasted 38 years is not a weakness, as a big part of the?
problem is proper sealing of the chainplates at the deck, repairing?
the existing is good too
Re: Chainplates

 

Guys,
?
I've been through the same process that Marty mentions on chainplates very recently and agree with everything he says except, beg borrow or steal a Fein Multitool to cut out the old chainplates. It only took about an hour and a half for both. Put them back in the same place! If you?do anthing different you have to buy new shrouds or reinforce the deckhouse plus you kill the valve of the boat. Re-inventing the wheel seldom works.
?
Billy Ray Davis
Scarlet #79


Marty Levenson wrote:
Actually, I disagree. Our 1968 chainplates looked fine from the outside, but when I opened up the encased knee the bolts were half gone...rusted away. There is no way to know if water has ever migrated there (even through wet core?) through the years, without looking.?

I replaced the knees with epoxy encased plywood and rebolted using ss. The bolts now go through the fiberglass as well as the knee. I'm sure you can do something quite safe taking the shroud out to the hull, but why sacrifice any pointing ability? The port knee I did mostly using a grinder and it was really arduous and suffocating! For the starboard knee I found a better system: drilled a series of approx 3/8" holes edge to edge along the inboard edge of the knee and then pried it apart with a wide chisel. Much easier. After replacing the knee, able to pull the two "faces" of that glass back together and through bolt.

Hope that is useful,
Marty

"Poseidon" Vancouver


On 24-Apr-08, at 6:48 PM, ksmith4312 wrote:

My rigger says outboard is best. I kind of like that idea. However
IMO having lasted 38 years is not a weakness, as a big part of the
problem is proper sealing of the chainplates at the deck, repairing
the existing is good too


Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.

Re: Chainplates

[email protected]
 

开云体育

I think the original Chainplate design is good for pointing.? However, I’m not a performance sailor and I’d rather have 3 inches of deck that never leaks, doesn’t bite my feet, and is easy and safe to walk past.? In addition the inspection becomes easy.

?

Structurally, the knee walls simply transfer the load to the hull anyhow.? So it’s not like they do something spectacular.? While I’m not a structural engineer (and I didn’t stay at a Holiday Inn Express last nite either….) the mechanics of it are fairly straight forward.? The knee wall is a backing plate of sorts and the glass simply transfers the load to the hull. The deck is balsa cored glass so it isn’t likely to have significant structural loading capacity.? Yes, it will hold people, but you aren’t going to anchor the PSI loads that the rig can generate in the blasa cored deck.? If the Rig generates a 2500 lb load under sail, that 2500 lb load is spread over the 3 or 4 bolts.? Those bolts might have a combined surface area of say 5 square inches for our conversation.? That’s a 2500lb load on the wire, transferred to 5sq/in of bolts at 500psi (avg).? That is then transferred over the 250 sq/I of wood to fiberglass as 10psi.

?

My point here is that the load simply needs to be spread out.? I’ve collected a few pictures of the outside chainplates.? My guess is that it isn’t a big deal as long as you create some backing plates.

?

Brian Greul

Texas Shirt Company

713-802-0369 / 713-861-6261 (fax)

Targeted, Effective Promotions to help you grow your brand
Re: Chainplates

 

Actually, I disagree. Our 1968 chainplates looked fine from the outside, but when I opened up the encased knee the bolts were half gone...rusted away. There is no way to know if water has ever migrated there (even through wet core?) through the years, without looking.?

I replaced the knees with epoxy encased plywood and rebolted using ss. The bolts now go through the fiberglass as well as the knee. I'm sure you can do something quite safe taking the shroud out to the hull, but why sacrifice any pointing ability? The port knee I did mostly using a grinder and it was really arduous and suffocating! For the starboard knee I found a better system: drilled a series of approx 3/8" holes edge to edge along the inboard edge of the knee and then pried it apart with a wide chisel. Much easier. After replacing the knee, able to pull the two "faces" of that glass back together and through bolt.

Hope that is useful,
Marty

"Poseidon" Vancouver


On 24-Apr-08, at 6:48 PM, ksmith4312 wrote:

My rigger says outboard is best. I kind of like that idea. However
IMO having lasted 38 years is not a weakness, as a big part of the
problem is proper sealing of the chainplates at the deck, repairing
the existing is good too
Hull 555

 

Sidney since you liked my photo here are some more. I took them today, first time out this year. I am on Deep Creek near the mouth of the Magothy River, Nortm of Annapolis , MD.



hull 555 Ambler





am




____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Re: Chainplates

ksmith4312
 

--- In T27Owners@..., calebjess@... wrote:

ksmith4312,
I am not an engineer and barely a mathematician with only a BA in
the
subject but I know a little about physics and construction. I
would
prefer to put chain plates outside on the hull than move the chain
plates to the doghouse roof for a couple of reasons. 1) the angle
created by the new position and the spreaders would not give the
designed 'proper' support to the mast in any respectable kind of
wind,
2) the doghouse roof is not as structurally sound (thick) as the
hull
(@1/2" on my #328 T27) and would be prone to flexing and stressing
due
to it's shape, whereas the hull is thick and solid, although it
flexes
a little bit, 3) the jib and sheets would still have to get around
them
and might make going forward more 'interesting', 4) refer to
suggestion
5, 5) don't do it, it is not safe, practical or reasonable.
It turns out that the stainless steel bolts that go through the
chain
plates need air to remain healthy and that in the original Tartan
design, these bolts were entirely glassed in, depriving them of air
and
when water intruded they decayed, leaving many of our sailboats
vulnerable to chain plate failure. I replaced the aft chain plate
after it pulled up for this (these) reasons on my T27. I used Ipe
(a
wood from South America) as the stock, the original chain plate
(chromed perhaps?), and new stainless steel bolts and re-glassed
the
entire thing (behind the rudder). The 'best' way to fix this
problem,
IMHO, is to keep the SS bolts outside of the epoxy so they get
air.
Rebuild the old knee walls with a solid piece of wood (or other
material; starboard comes to mind) and put the bolts in last OR
move
the whole thing outside, to the freeboard. You will still want
some
kind of backing plates if you mount the shrouds outboard.
Glad to know that I am not the only one contemplating this chore.
CalebD
T27 #328, Odalisque, 1967

-----Original Message-----
From: ksmith4312 <ksmith4312@...>
To: T27Owners@...
Sent: Wed, 23 Apr 2008 9:42 pm
Subject: [T27Owners] Chainplates

I ve been mulling over shrouds. I have seen a thread about placing
the
chainplates outboard.

Was wondering about moving them inboard to the doghouse? Any tech
guys
about the pro or cons.



Hull 442


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links
Thanks for the replys;

My rigger says outboard is best. I kind of like that idea. However
IMO having lasted 38 years is not a weakness, as a big part of the
problem is proper sealing of the chainplates at the deck, repairing
the existing is good too.
Re: bilge pump location

[email protected]
 

开云体育

Two things you mentioned give me pause…… Of course you are the captain of your boat…. So maybe three things.

?

1)????? Towing Insurance is really an inexpensive investment.? While we never want to be towed in, the annual cost is cheaper than the incident cost, even if you rarely use it.? I had a sponge in my fuel tank when I bought the boat.? The second time I went out I managed to be powerless? and drifting in to a shallow area about ? mile from the marina.? The tow operator came and pulled me to my slip.? He said that would be $250 if I had not been a Tow Boat US member.?? I still figure I’m ahead after 2 years at $100/yr.

2)????? Batteries are expendable.? When they get run down to the point where they require constant charging its time for new ones.? We have a sporting goods store called Academy here that has the best prices.? Wal-Mart was the next best.? Make sure to get the most recent batteries when you buy.? There is a date code sticker on each battery.? For example, 4-8 would be April 2008.? You really do not want 11-7 or 10-7 batteries that have been on the shelf for 6 months.?

3)????? Electric Bilge Pumps… Yes I have a manual, in theory it would be useful.? Yes, $56 is a lot for a BOAT toy.? However, murphy’s law section 6, part E subsection 3 states that equipment on a boat is least likely to work when most needed.? So your bilge pump won’t be a problem until…. You are in 4 foot seas, in a lightning storm, with dead batteries, and a leaking hose, 1000 yards from a ship channel.? At which point your manual pump will be of little comfort…. Other than maybe your admiral (wife) can take the handle and beat you with it…. Lol.? On a serious note, just think hard about scrimping on safety gear.? I consider my bilge pump and batteries to be safety equipment.? I even carry a little portable “jumper” pack from WalMart or Sams (I own several of them) at all times.? It’s my backup battery in case we need to start the engine with it…. It’s saved me before.?

?

As a side note, I have one of those battery conditioner/charger/maintainers installed. I’ve had it on for a year now.? It trickle charges and sends a certain frequency through my batteries that is supposed to dissolve sulfate crystals and extend the battery life.? We’ll see in a few years if it works.? It’s primary purpose is to make sure that if a minor leak were to occur or rainwater to get in, the bilge pump won’t run the battery dead.? I’ve had defective switches get stuck open and run the battery dead with the bilge pump.? I now use a electronic switch for this reason…..

?

Brian Greul

Texas Shirt Company

713-802-0369 / 713-861-6261 (fax)

Targeted, Effective Promotions to help you grow your brand
Re: Chainplates

[email protected]
 

开云体育

I’ve been waiting for my rigger to go give me his opinion and thoughts on moving my shrouds to the sides of the hull.? The biggest reason to move them inboard is to aid in pointing.? It lets you sheet closer to the wind.? All of which sounds dandy if you subscribe to the “taking a crap makes you go faster because it saves weight” theory.? The reality is that the Tartan 27 doesn’t point worth a damn anyway.? When I bought a Tartan I made a choice to have a sturdy boat capable of doing anything but sailing to wind pretty damn well.? So, my thinking is that I’d rather have something that is structurally sound and involves a minimum of fiberglass work in strange places and frees the deck of one of the more annoying places to walk.

?

I had to go up the mast twice this weekend.? The first time was to retrieve my jib halyard.? In the haste to take down the jib from the furling unit we sent the halyard to the top of the mast.? GRRR.? The furler didn’t unwind all the way at the dock and it needed my expert assistance to unfurl it.? I forgot to secure the jib halyard to something, and as soon as the furler came around the sail shot down and the halyard flew up the mast, neatly coiled.?

?

I also replaced my wire main halyard with a technora cored 1/8” line.? It has a 1800# breaking strength so I expect it to be comparable to the stainless steel.? I did modify the drum of my main halyard winch to give me a tie off point.? The sheave at the top appears to be frozen, but the profile is setup for rope.? The only caveat here is that it is a very tiny passage, so I ended up using my VHF antenna to fish the line out of the “gate”.

?

The only time I truly got scared (aside from the first 30 seconds) is when my neighbors backed down the slipway with their 45 foot hunter.? I had never seen them move that boat and it never occurred to me that yes, that was how it got there.? Needless to say my perspective from 35 feet off the water was interesting.? Lol.? I thought they were going to brush me at first and the last place I want to be is tied to the top of the mast.

?

I do recommend going up once? a year and looking at your fittings.? Unless of course you unstep your mast annually in which case you are bringing the fittings down to you.? For some of us in semi-tropical waters the mast never comes out.? As I explained to my friend who hauled me up the mast, BOAT means Bring Out Another Thousand.? The Bring Out Another Thousand Yard is always happy to help you work on your boat, and strangely the projects wind up being nearly in increments of a thousand dollars.? Lol.

?

Brian Greul

Texas Shirt Company

713-802-0369 / 713-861-6261 (fax)

Targeted, Effective Promotions to help you grow your brand
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