2022 NSE Nashville T-TRAK layout
?Putting out a call for modules for the ?T-TRAK Layout that will be presented at the 2022 NSE Convention/Show in Nashville in June of this year. (June 15th through the 19th) The layout sets up on Thursday, June 16th, and tears down on Saturday afternoon, June 18th. Those who would like to participate with a module are asked to request a participation form from layout@.... ONLY those who have submitted a participation form before the deadline (when all spaces are full) will be able to participate. Space is limited , so if you wish to participate, don't wait to request and submit a participation form.
? Registration for the convention is not required in order to participate in the layout with a module, however you are precluded from participating in any other convention activities other than the layout itself.
? The form is for participation in the T-TRAK Layout only. If you wish to participate in the NSE Convention, you must register separately for that at their website, although, those who participate with a module receive a registration discount from NSE.
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Re: Ray Stillwell's BCD Circuit Notes
I made some circuit boards and built a few according to his specs.? They seem to work fine.? Although I have not done extensive testing.? If they don't work at some point in the future I may fiddle with the capacitance but for now I see no reason to second guess.
Regards,
Ken Harstine
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Re: Ray Stillwell's BCD Circuit Notes
Martin,
I¡¯m pretty sure the 22000 was from ray¡¯s equation for the cap value depending on the resistance of your coil(s) in his doc
C = 22000 / R
I think the 22000 value is a result of using 12v and trying to get the desired pulse time and value that Ray calculated. In some of his docs he went deeper into the electrical engineering of the circuit, others he was just here¡¯s how you make it.
Cheers,
Jeff
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On Jun 7, 2021, at 4:41 PM, Martin Watts <mjwatts1962@...> wrote:
Went back through Ray's notes when discussing using the BCD circuit to throw Peco points with my friend Dave Mc and got to wonder where this value of 22000 came from which led to the question which hopefully someone will know the answer to.
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Re: Ray Stillwell's BCD Circuit Notes
Thankyou to those who have responded so far and offered to send Ray's notes.
Ray was kind enough to send me a copy of his second edition and fourth edition notes as well as a picture of how to wire in the reset on power up relay when making up the BCD circuit on a terminal strip.
I have since drawn up a PCB diagram and etched for a single controller and a double controller along with diagrams for up to eight controllers on the one board to go under my T-Trak modules in a attempt to make the wiring neater.
The single controller has been well tested while the double currently sits in a drawer until needed.
I since moved away from etching and started using isolation routing to make the boards having routed two so far, one is populated, to be tested but don't see any issues and the other waiting to be done.
Went back through Ray's notes when discussing using the BCD circuit to throw Peco points with my friend Dave Mc and got to wonder where this value of 22000 came from which led to the question which hopefully someone will know the answer to.
Regards,
Martin
Neerim South
Victoria, Australia
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Re: Ray Stillwell's BCD Circuit Notes
Ken,
Ray outlined this in one of his docs with the pulse produced from the circuit compared to a Kato controller. It was about half the current and not the hard pulse of the contact switch. The cap discharge had a rapid up then slow decline after the peak, not just staying level. This he thought would help give the better coil action and less oscillation (humming) and bounce back. Also requires less power for doing multiple throws at once (he had a lot of circuits for reset of a panel with power up or hard ladders).
Cheers
Jeff
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On Jun 7, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Ken Harstine <kharstin@...> wrote:
?I don't know what the length of the pulse is that Kato controllers send.? That would determine the minimum value of the capacitor somewhat.? The only reliable way to know would be to check for heating of the turnout motor when thrown.? In general you want it to be as high as possible but not so high as to cause melting.? This would involve a lot of experimentation to arrive at with any provision.?
Pulse length matching does not really work either.? The Kato controller will produce a pulse at full voltage for a certain length of time.? The capacitor circuits provide an exponentially decreasing voltage over a known time period.? So the pulse with a capacitor should be about 30% longer to provide the same effect (sort of ).
At some point after power is applied the coil of the Kato would saturate and and only the DC resistance mentioned previously would limit current.? Once this happens the coil quits providing additional moving force.? If you watched the current with an oscilloscope you could ascertain when this occurs.? Now you know the optimum length of the pulse and could use the approximation provided by multiplying the resistance (22 Ohms per coil) times the capacitance.? If driving multiple coils you should increase the capacitance by the same multiple in order to maintain the same reliability of throw.
Regards,
Ken Harstine
Holyoke, MA
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Re: Ray Stillwell's BCD Circuit Notes
I don't know what the length of the pulse is that Kato controllers send.? That would determine the minimum value of the capacitor somewhat.? The only reliable way to know would be to check for heating of the turnout motor when thrown.? In general you want it to be as high as possible but not so high as to cause melting.? This would involve a lot of experimentation to arrive at with any provision.?
Pulse length matching does not really work either.? The Kato controller will produce a pulse at full voltage for a certain length of time.? The capacitor circuits provide an exponentially decreasing voltage over a known time period.? So the pulse with a capacitor should be about 30% longer to provide the same effect (sort of ).
At some point after power is applied the coil of the Kato would saturate and and only the DC resistance mentioned previously would limit current.? Once this happens the coil quits providing additional moving force.? If you watched the current with an oscilloscope you could ascertain when this occurs.? Now you know the optimum length of the pulse and could use the approximation provided by multiplying the resistance (22 Ohms per coil) times the capacitance.? If driving multiple coils you should increase the capacitance by the same multiple in order to maintain the same reliability of throw.
Regards,
Ken Harstine
Holyoke, MA
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Re: Ray Stillwell's BCD Circuit Notes
Martin,
Ray used the equation
C = 22000 / R
Where R is the resistance of the coil or 22ohms in the case for Kato coils, so caps should be 1000uf. 4x coils in a double switch would be 5ohm resistance so 4400uf (or 4700uf for commercially available cap).
Happy to send you ray¡¯s documents. He said I could distribute to others that asked and just ask then not to post them publicly. While Ray has passed away, I just continue to respect his wishes he last left with me on them as they were his. I tried to contact his family after his passing to see what they thought on the matter but got no response unfortunately. Others have reverse engineered the circuit from hearing the concept and posted their designs on line and a few are identical designs to Ray¡¯s and they are free to present their circuits as they please. Hopefully someone will write up their work and publish widely one way or another and give Ray credit for his early work on the circuit.
Cheers
Jeff
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On Jun 7, 2021, at 6:44 AM, Martin Watts <mjwatts1962@...> wrote:
?Good Evening,
Hopefully a member here can enlighten me.
Ray used a value of 22000 when calculating the capacitor size in the circuit and I am wondering how he came to that figure.
If anyone knows can they please share that information.
Kindest Regards,
Martin Watts
Heading down the rabbit warren of using ESP8266 devices to drive relays to switch the BCD circuit and throw the points when not working on track detection for a T-Trak based layout.
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Re: Ray Stillwell's BCD Circuit Notes
Martin,
I don't have Ray's official notes (I disagreed with his restrictive distribution), however I came to an understanding of his circuit, and have built several iterations of it.?
The first thing to understand is the general principal. In one direction, a charged capacitor discharges across the Kato coil, energizing it as the charge is dissipated, the capacitor is then in the discharged state. In the other direction, the current through the coil charges the capacitor. gradually reducing the current until the cap is charged. The size of the capacitor determines the duration of this pulse.
I don't know where the 22000 come from. My accessory bus is 16vac, which when rectified gives about 25vdc to the BCD circuit. At this voltage I use 1000ufd for a single turnout circuit and 2200 for a dual.
I hope this helps,
Bob
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Ray Stillwell's BCD Circuit Notes
Good Evening,
Hopefully a member here can enlighten me.
Ray used a value of 22000 when calculating the capacitor size in the circuit and I am wondering how he came to that figure.
If anyone knows can they please share that information.
Kindest Regards,
Martin Watts
Heading down the rabbit warren of using ESP8266 devices to drive relays to switch the BCD circuit and throw the points when not working on track detection for a T-Trak based layout.
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? Letter from the NRail President A January 1st Announcement ? Hi Folks: ? Happy New Year. ? 1973 was a very significant year in model railroading. The first N Scale modules were designed, constructed, and displayed at a public show. That show was the MRIA show ¡ª no layout, just modules displayed. The first public NTRAK layout was the NMRA convention in 1974. These were the seminal NTRAK modules, and their debut began the widespread use of modular layouts, not only in N Scale, but in other scales as well. With the definition of NTRAK standards and the founding of the NTRAK Newsletter by Jim FitzGerald the modular concept took off. Today, almost one-half century since their freshman assembly more than an estimated 7,000 NTRAK modules have been built. ? Over the years NTRAK has evolved with variations on the basic NTRAK module including oNeTRAK, Ncat, BendTRAK, TwinTRAK, and others. Technical advances were made in the form of wireless throttles and Digital Command Control. ? In 1996, Jim FitzGerald took steps to ensure the ongoing viability of the organization with the formation of the NTRAK Modular Railroading Society, Inc. (NTRAK, Inc.). A Board of Directors was appointed to oversee the organization, which continues to this day. ? The next major advance in N Scale modular railroading was made with the introduction of T-TRAK in 2000 by Lee Monaco-FitzGerald and Jim FitzGerald. After a slow start, the growth of T-TRAK was rapid and now has more modelers than NTRAK. Standards for T-TRAK were established by Lee and Jim, and they started building T-TRAK modules and module kits. Today, multiple manufacturers are making T-TRAK module kits. ? NTRAK, the organization, has continued to be the standard bearer for NTRAK and T-TRAK by maintaining the standards function, as well as providing support to NTRAK and T-TRAK clubs, publishing the newsletter, organizing layouts at major shows, maintaining the web sites and our social media presence. But NTRAK has become more ¡ª promoting N scale in all forms including home layouts and supporting N scale activities including Free-moN and giving N Scale clinics at major shows. ? As we have expanded our scope over the past few years, it has become evident that we are more than just NTRAK and the newsletter and our show activities have reflected that. But for many N scalers, NTRAK is a specific modular standard. ? With that in mind, the Board of Directors has considered a new name and approved NRail as a more appropriate name to match our goals and our ongoing evolution as an organization. Legally, our new name is NRail, Inc. ? ? What does this mean for members? NRail will continue to focus primarily on the two most popular standards, NTRAK, and T-TRAK, but we will also continue to expand and increase attention to the other aspects such as Free-moN, Clubs, and Home Layouts. And NRail will continue to expand and enhance our relationship with the various N Scale manufacturers. ? Already our efforts have resulted in the following: ? ??????? A new, improved web site with a members¡¯ only section. ??????? Monthly ZoomTRAK meetings for members. ??????? Expansion of the Newsletter and its staff. ??????? Recognize and promote Super Clubs. ??????? Expand the use of social media channels. ? Other programs are under way and will be announced as they are ready for unveiling. ? Although the new website is NRail.org, it will continue to be available using the existing URLs of NTRAK.org and T-TRAK.org. ? We look forward to continuing the 47-year-old tradition under the new name, NRail. ? NRail, NTRAK, T-TRAK and ZoomTRAK, and their logos are trademarks of NRail, Inc. Permission to use for commercial purposes is required. ? ? More information is published in the January/February 2021 issue of the NRail Newsletter. ? Regards, ? ? John Wallis NRail, Inc. President
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T-Trak Module Kit from Kato - Part Two
Hello All, It has been about three months since I last worked on the Kato T-Trak module kits and I wanted to get back to them and start to apply the Woodland Scenics Shaper Sheets and see how it went. Here is the link to the video for anyone interested,?https://youtu.be/gOkH8ycchgM Thanks, Heath --
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Controlling a Kato turnout with an Arduino and power transistors (was Re: Kato double crossover power requirements)
Dave, Can you post a circuit diagram for the power transistor method?
200msec pulse worked for me, too.
As I've ended up making these pretty much ad hoc, I don't have a clear schematic written down. However, there are projects on the web about how to control a TIP120 from an Arduino. An example is here: What you need is to set up two circuits like this, one to push the current in either direction. I realize this is too much handwaving, however I'm having trouble posting a file with a rough schematic, so I'm going to try to describe it verbally. Essentially the circuit is a variation of how to control a single coil machine like a Kato, with a circuit for a twin coil machine. Basically you have three wires in and two out. Power normal, power route and common in, two wires to the coil out. The normal and route input go to the coil inputs. There are resistors between the inputs and ground, so that when you apply a voltage to one of the inputs, some of the current goes through the coil, back through the opposite resistor, to power the coil and some goes (wasted) through the adjacent resistor to ground. Got that? So for controlling a Kato coil with an Arduino and power transistors you need your input voltage, ground, the wires to the Kato coil, and wires from two Arduino output pins. Voltage connects through the resistor to the TIP's collector, and to on lead to the Kato coil. This is repeated for the other coil wire. The TIP emitters are connected to ground. The pins from the Arduino to the base pins on the TIPs. For the resistors, I've been using 22 ohm 5 watt units, but this is not critical, anything from about 20 to 35 ohms, and at least 1 watt should work. I hope this is clear. Bob
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Re: Kato double crossover power requirements
Bob,
Can you post a circuit diagram for the power transistor method?
200msec pulse worked for me, too.
- Dave Mc.
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Re: Kato double crossover power requirements
Brian, Hi Folks! I am looking for the safest way to actuate the above
named crossover. I have programmed an Arduino to drive a shift
register which in turn supplies a signal to an H bridge motor driver
to actuate the crossover. This works fine on the bench but fails to
work as desired when installed in a real life application. I am going
on the assumption that the crossover draws more current than I am now
providing. My question is "How much power (Watts) does the crossover
need to properly actuate?" I have read that Kato recommends 12 to 14
volts at 1.5 amps. I cannot verify this but if this is correct then
the maximum recommended wattage would be 21 Watts. I am currently
using a 12 volt supply to a buck booster, raising the voltage to 16
volts, charging a 2200 ufd capacitor and applying that to the H
bridge. On the bench this works fine, but in application it fails to
drive the crossover correctly. Can I safely increase the booster
applied voltage to say 20 volts to increase the power output to H
bridge without destroying the Kato crossover? Anyone else faced this
issue? What was your solution?
Thanks. Brian How many coils are you trying to throw at once, two or four? The Kato turnout coils take around .5A apiece at 12V. The voltage shouldn't be critical. Remember, you should be giving just a short pulse to throw the turnout, not a steady current. As long as the coil doesn't get hot you should be ok. I've used a variety of capacitive discharge circuits to throw Kato turnouts. Usually they're charge from rectified 16V ac, so about 22vdc. No problem. On the bench, I've also tried lower voltages, IIRC they worked well at 9vdc. Also I've used arduinos driving a power transistor (again at ~22vdc). a pulse of 200msec seems to be good. Bob __________________________________________________________
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Re: Kato double crossover power requirements
4700ufd 35V capacitor is recommended for the double crossover. It's throwing 4 standard turnouts at once. (My reference there is George Stillwell's BCD circuit.)
Here are my thoughts...
A boost converter will draw more current from the source voltage.
You don't need more than 12V power source, you need a bigger capacitor. Having higher voltage power on your layout brings risk of inadvertently putting the higher voltage where it shouldn't be. Don't ask how my friend knows that.
I have used a H bridge to throw a single turnout- no capacitor, just a brief pulse of 12V power, just like the Kato blue switch levers. It works but I don't recommend it.
There is a risk with a H bridge that if you don't wire it correctly to your Arduino, you can switch on the H bridge but not switch it off.? Don't ask how I know that.
The H bridge gets its own power from the input source so it's only alive while the capacitor is discharging. The surge may not be good for it.
I'm waiting for a 6 channel Arduino relay board to arrive and will be driving single turnouts with 1000ufd capacitors, a variant of George Stilwell's BCD circuit.? Another friend has done that and it seems to be working well.?
- Dave Mc.
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Kato double crossover power requirements
? Hi Folks! ? ? ?I am looking for the safest way to actuate the above named crossover. I have programmed an Arduino to drive a shift register which in turn supplies a signal to an H bridge motor driver to actuate the crossover. This works fine on the bench but fails to work as desired when installed in a real life application. I am going on the assumption that the crossover draws more current than I am now providing. My question is "How much power (Watts) does the crossover need to properly actuate?" I have read that Kato recommends 12 to 14 volts at 1.5 amps. I cannot verify this but if this is correct then the maximum recommended wattage would be 21 Watts. I am currently using a 12 volt supply to a buck booster, raising the voltage to 16 volts, charging a 2200 ufd capacitor and applying that to the H bridge. On the bench this works fine, but in application it fails to drive the crossover correctly. Can I safely increase the booster applied voltage to say 20 volts to increase the power output to H bridge without destroying the Kato crossover? Anyone else faced this issue? What was your solution? Thanks. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Brian |
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Re: T-Trak Module Kit from Kato
Bill,
Before the Kato modules, I had two corners, two doubles and two singles.
The two corners from Kato complete the loop.
Heath
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Human[c]ity Junction
Human.c.ityJunction@...
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Human[c]ity Junction
Human.c.ityJunction@...
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Re: T-Trak Module Kit from Kato
"This is another reason that the loss of Terry Nathan and his T-Trak modules will be missed."
We do miss Terry, but when he left, he graciously posted on his website to get your T-trak module kits from MasterpieceModules.com.? Thanks to Terry for getting me into the T-trak business. I've shipped over 3,000 module kits since Terry's passing.
?
David A. Petersen
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Re: T-Trak Module Kit from Kato
Hi Heath,
I¡¯m curious as to why you bought two corner kits, given that you already had three? Seems like two straights or a corner plus a couple of straights, might have been a better test. Module weight, while not critical, does seem like a reasonable concern, given that the modules are only held together by the UniJoiners. I¡¯ve made modules out of many different materials including 3/4 plywood planks, 3/16 foam core, 3/16¡± Gatorboard, 1/4¡± plywood, and 1/8¡± doorskin plywood. So far, I prefer the 1/8¡± doorskin the best, but it seems like it¡¯s getting hard to find, since most doorskin in these parts seems to be MDF with photo overlays to make it look like real wood (not real wood, just sawdust, paper, and glue). In any event, I enjoyed your review of the Kato/Woodland Scenics T-Trak kits, thanks for sharing it.
Bill in FtL
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Re: T-Trak Module Kit from Kato
Awesome!
I really like those lever nuts. I'll have to pick some up to experiment with them.
-Steve Steve Jackson Northern Virginia NTRAK T-TRAK Division Steve Jackson Membership Chair NTRAK Modular Railroading Society, Inc. membership@...???
Steve,
I absolutely kept the Kato connectors.? To convert the modules from my home setup to a show setup, I would just remove the anderson connectors and connect the Kato connectors.??
This is why I included the Lever Nuts into the design, so the wiring can be quickly changed.
Heath
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Ken Harstine
Heath @ Human[c]ity Junction
Steve Jackson