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Hi folks, a friend let me borrow his old Minifish so I can learn to sail. ?It is very very leaky. ?Two places I know leak badly are where I first drained it - where the traveler rope goes through the edge of the boat. ?It looks like the rope is intended to go through a hole in the curled deck seam. ?But apparently those holes don’t go only through the curled edge but allow water into the hull. ?Is this worth repairing?
this is not the only leak. ?But appears the most difficult to repair, so far.
my friend suggests using Flexseal on all leaks. ?I machine this will ruin any surface. ?I’d like to return the boat in better shape than I borrowed it.
thanks for help and advice.
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Worth repairing. We would inject thickened epoxy out of a caulk cartridge into a syringe, then use the syringe to slowly fill that hole. Thickened epoxy brands are either TotalBoat THIXO or Pettit FLEXPOXY
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?
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Are you sure those holes for the traveler go through the Interior hull? ?They shouldn’t. ?Can you send a picture of the damage? ?Where else is it leaking?
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On Jul 4, 2020, at 2:54 PM, Signal Charlie <lewis.kent@...> wrote:
?Worth repairing. We would inject thickened epoxy out of a caulk cartridge into a syringe, then use the syringe to slowly fill that hole. Thickened epoxy brands are either TotalBoat THIXO or Pettit FLEXPOXY
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?
|
? Your message has made me realize I made a leap in logic. ?When I pulled the swamped boat onto the sloped sand, water came out the traveler holes. But I didn’t see the source of the leak and assumed. ?
There’s a place on the right chine I can press through. ?There is a place on the keel that gives to pressing. ?These are the big ones I found on visual/manual inspection and must be repaired before a pressure leak test would do any good, I imagine.
I’m attaching pictures here and hope they come through.? 
The one on the keel is a terrible picture. My plan on it is thickened epoxy.?
On the chine, it’s going to need some fiberglass for sure.?
This is a first time epoxy project for me. I was hoping to get some smaller quantities of resin hardener and glass cloth at a big box hardware store. All they had was JB Weld and Loctite products and no glass cloth. I’ll look at Total Boat next but if there are any other ideas on getting smaller quantities I’d be much obliged.?
Thank you also to Charlie for your suggestions. I’ll look specifically for your recs for thickened epoxy. But it turns out I have a ways to go before I can even get to a leak test to determine if those traveler holes are even a source.?
My many thanks,
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On Jul 4, 2020, at 10:57 PM, Breezebender via groups.io <monicademeo@...> wrote:
? Are you sure those holes for the traveler go through the Interior hull? ?They shouldn’t. ?Can you send a picture of the damage? ?Where else is it leaking? On Jul 4, 2020, at 2:54 PM, Signal Charlie <lewis.kent@...> wrote:
?Worth repairing. We would inject thickened epoxy out of a caulk cartridge into a syringe, then use the syringe to slowly fill that hole. Thickened epoxy brands are either TotalBoat THIXO or Pettit FLEXPOXY
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?
|
This is a good starter kit, West Systems.
If you are not near a Marine Supply house we use . They have a Tech Team hotline, talk to a real person on the phone. They sell their in house brand TotalBoat, which ships free. Also sell West Systems epoxy, Interlux, Pettit, Rustoleum...One stop shopping.
If you decide on a TotalBoat product, create an account and order online, and put LEWISBOATS in the coupon code for a 15% discount on TB products in your order.
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?
|
Joel,
Lowes Home Improvement used to sell the kits that included the cloth. West Marine also has them but they are quite pricey.? If that doesn’t work I have ?cloth from previous repairs I’ll give you for the postage.
?
We gotta get more of these old neglected boats back on the water.? My repaired 64 leaks a little but the drain plug solves that for now.? I pressure tested last winter and repaired what I thought was the leak but apparently there is another.?
I can deal with draining a cup or so after? a sail for a boat over 50 years old that I found for nothing in a neighborhood back yard.
?
Mr Mike
?
Sent from for Windows 10
?
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From: Joel Grist
Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2020 7:34 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SunfishSailor] Leak at traveler - minifish
?
?Your message has made me realize I made a leap in logic. ?When I pulled the swamped boat onto the sloped sand, water came out the traveler holes. But I didn’t see the source of the leak and assumed. ?
There’s a place on the right chine I can press through. ?There is a place on the keel that gives to pressing. ?These are the big ones I found on visual/manual inspection and must be repaired before a pressure leak test would do any good,
I imagine.
I’m attaching pictures here and hope they come through.?
The one on the keel is a terrible picture. My plan on it is thickened epoxy.?
On the chine, it’s going to need some fiberglass for sure.?
This is a first time epoxy project for me. I was hoping to get some smaller quantities of resin hardener and glass cloth at a big box hardware store. All they had was JB Weld and Loctite products and no glass cloth. I’ll look at Total Boat
next but if there are any other ideas on getting smaller quantities I’d be much obliged.?
Thank you also to Charlie for your suggestions. I’ll look specifically for your recs for thickened epoxy. But it turns out I have a ways to go before I can even get to a leak test to determine if those traveler holes are even a source.?
On Jul 4, 2020, at 10:57 PM, Breezebender via groups.io <monicademeo@...> wrote:
?Are you sure those holes for the traveler go through the Interior hull? ?They shouldn’t. ?Can you send a picture of the damage? ?Where else is it leaking?
On Jul 4, 2020, at 2:54 PM, Signal Charlie <lewis.kent@...> wrote:
?Worth repairing. We would inject thickened epoxy out of a caulk cartridge into a syringe, then use the syringe to slowly fill that hole. Thickened epoxy brands are either TotalBoat THIXO or Pettit FLEXPOXY
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?
|
Perfect! ?I’m going near a West in a couple of weeks and didn’t know of Jamestown (it’s cheaper there.
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On Jul 5, 2020, at 7:44 AM, Signal Charlie <lewis.kent@...> wrote:
?This is a good starter kit, West Systems.
If you are not near a Marine Supply house we use . They have a Tech Team hotline, talk to a real person on the phone. They sell their in house brand TotalBoat, which ships free. Also sell West Systems epoxy, Interlux, Pettit, Rustoleum...One stop shopping.
If you decide on a TotalBoat product, create an account and order online, and put LEWISBOATS in the coupon code for a 15% discount on TB products in your order.
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?
|
Joel, a lot of people wish it's as simple as just smoothing on some epoxy... and sometimes it can be. ?But the "better", more thorough and lasting repair takes a bit more work; it's my opinion you should actually cut out/grind out the soft, collapsed areas and fill them back up with several layers of cut glass cloth and epoxy, to build back a solid, structural repair that will last. You might want to look at a few youtube fiberglass sailboat repair videos and see if the repairs they make look like what's wrong on your boat. If the damage is super small some Marine Tex might be all you need. But a large soft spot means there's broken glass fibers in there or fibers that never got enough resin in the original build... or resin/glass that was a bad mix or rotted from a long period of water soaking into it. If you launch and recover off a beach, I'd be concerned about that keel area.
I rebuilt the bow of my boat with polyester resin, glass cloth, and Bondo from the auto parts store. The original hull is polyester, which is why I went that way. Also the hull cost me 20 bucks and so I had no (redacteds) to give in how I repaired it. It was a learning experience and occupational therapy. With a whole heck of a lot of machine and hand-sanding, I learned how to make a finish I'm proud of. Because I was learning as I went, it took the whole first summer to finish it. But learn I did. ?Epoxy is good because you can use it on either polyester or another epoxy, and it won't damage foam, if you're glassing foam. ?But polyester does have one thing going for it: is less expensive and ubiquitous.
When patching the glass, one tip I can pass along to improve the finish is to buy some flexible plastic material made of HDPE... you often see kitchen cutting boards made of this, but I found it also comes in very thin, flexible sheets, available in my local Menards store, sold in the shelving section. ?This stuff is like a shelf liner on metal grid shelving units, it's only a buck or two per large sheet. ?Lay ?a patch of this over the wet repair to smooth the resin as it cures, and it peels right off afterwards, leaving a glassy, even surface. You'll have a much faster and easier time sanding it down afterwards.?
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Joel,
I recommend grinding and glassing the keel, too. Just applying thickened resin is unlikely to survive long.
Here's a page I created when doing similar repairs on a friend's boat: Note the resin-only patch that a previous owner had tried.
I used polyester resin instead of epoxy. I tend to use epoxy only in cases where I think I will need the adhesive characteristics. When grinding and laying up a cloth patch, that's not necessary. I prefer to keep the hull to one family of resin to make future repairs easier.
- George
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On 7/5/20 7:34 AM, Joel Grist wrote: ?Your message has made me realize I made a leap in logic. ?When I pulled the swamped boat onto the sloped sand, water came out the traveler holes. But I didn’t see the source of the leak and assumed.
There’s a place on the right chine I can press through. ?There is a place on the keel that gives to pressing. ?These are the big ones I found on visual/manual inspection and must be repaired before a pressure leak test would do any good, I imagine.
I’m attaching pictures here and hope they come through.
The one on the keel is a terrible picture. My plan on it is thickened epoxy.
On the chine, it’s going to need some fiberglass for sure.
This is a first time epoxy project for me. I was hoping to get some smaller quantities of resin hardener and glass cloth at a big box hardware store. All they had was JB Weld and Loctite products and no glass cloth. I’ll look at Total Boat next but if there are any other ideas on getting smaller quantities I’d be much obliged.
Thank you also to Charlie for your suggestions. I’ll look specifically for your recs for thickened epoxy. But it turns out I have a ways to go before I can even get to a leak test to determine if those traveler holes are even a source.
My many thanks,
-Joel
On Jul 4, 2020, at 10:57 PM, Breezebender via groups.io <monicademeo@...> wrote:
?Are you sure those holes for the traveler go through the Interior hull? ?They shouldn’t. ?Can you send a picture of the damage? ?Where else is it leaking?
On Jul 4, 2020, at 2:54 PM, Signal Charlie <lewis.kent@...> wrote:
?Worth repairing. We would inject thickened epoxy out of a caulk cartridge into a syringe, then use the syringe to slowly fill that hole. Thickened epoxy brands are either TotalBoat THIXO or Pettit FLEXPOXY
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog Small Boat Restoration <>
Our book The Sunfish Owners Manual <> _._,_._,_
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I remember bygone days George Dinwiddie
I think how evening follows morn; gdinwiddie@...
So many I loved were not yet dead,
So many I love were not yet born. also see:
'The Middle' by Ogden Nash
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|
George ?does pretty much as I did. His step by step is good.
?? An extra step I'd do, if the hole is larger, is, before glassing the outer surface, put some glass mat on a cardboard backer, a little larger than the hole... run a knotted string thru the center of that "sandwich". Add the resin, stuff this sandwich thru the hole into the interior and pull the string tight to get the wet mat up against the back of the hole from the inside. ?You can twist the string like a tourniquet to keep it tight until cured, then snip the string and finish the exterior glassing repair. ? What this does for you is lock the new glass together to the old with a ?lot more contact surface than before, and give even more surface to attach the patch to.
On my bow repair, ?a catcher's mitt-sized section of the entire bow was missing. ?The auto parts store sold some metal repair mesh used by auto body men; I sandwiched this on the inside with glass mat with a lot of overlap, to anchor it to the sound structure from the inside, then glassed and filled from the outside. This way if I hit a dock piling the repair doesn't just collapse inward.
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Is this a test? I’ve heard never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever pollster resin for a boat hull.
-Joel Grist
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On Jul 5, 2020, at 12:26 PM, gdinwiddie <sunfish@...> wrote:
?Joel,
I recommend grinding and glassing the keel, too. Just applying thickened resin is unlikely to survive long.
Here's a page I created when doing similar repairs on a friend's boat: Note the resin-only patch that a previous owner had tried.
I used polyester resin instead of epoxy. I tend to use epoxy only in cases where I think I will need the adhesive characteristics. When grinding and laying up a cloth patch, that's not necessary. I prefer to keep the hull to one family of resin to make future repairs easier.
- George
On 7/5/20 7:34 AM, Joel Grist wrote:
?Your message has made me realize I made a leap in logic. When I pulled the swamped boat onto the sloped sand, water came out the traveler holes. But I didn’t see the source of the leak and assumed.
There’s a place on the right chine I can press through. There is a place on the keel that gives to pressing. These are the big ones I found on visual/manual inspection and must be repaired before a pressure leak test would do any good, I imagine.
I’m attaching pictures here and hope they come through.
The one on the keel is a terrible picture. My plan on it is thickened epoxy.
On the chine, it’s going to need some fiberglass for sure.
This is a first time epoxy project for me. I was hoping to get some smaller quantities of resin hardener and glass cloth at a big box hardware store. All they had was JB Weld and Loctite products and no glass cloth. I’ll look at Total Boat next but if there are any other ideas on getting smaller quantities I’d be much obliged.
Thank you also to Charlie for your suggestions. I’ll look specifically for your recs for thickened epoxy. But it turns out I have a ways to go before I can even get to a leak test to determine if those traveler holes are even a source.
My many thanks,
-Joel
On Jul 4, 2020, at 10:57 PM, Breezebender via groups.io <monicademeo@...> wrote: ?Are you sure those holes for the traveler go through the Interior hull? They shouldn’t. Can you send a picture of the damage? Where else is it leaking?
On Jul 4, 2020, at 2:54 PM, Signal Charlie <lewis.kent@...> wrote:
?Worth repairing. We would inject thickened epoxy out of a caulk cartridge into a syringe, then use the syringe to slowly fill that hole. Thickened epoxy brands are either TotalBoat THIXO or Pettit FLEXPOXY
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog Small Boat Restoration <>
Our book The Sunfish Owners Manual <>
_._,_._,_ --
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I remember bygone days George Dinwiddie
I think how evening follows morn; gdinwiddie@...
So many I loved were not yet dead,
So many I love were not yet born. also see:
'The Middle' by Ogden Nash
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|
The Sunfish are made with polyester resin. Old School. It is cheaper than epoxy resin, New School. Epoxy bonds to poly but not as well the other way poly to epoxy. Boat pros I have talked to recommend epoxy for REPAIRS, and Polyester for BUILDS. One rep from Pettit told me that some insurance companies would only cover the repair?if it was done with epoxy.
Talk amongst yourselves...
Is this a test?? I’ve heard never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever pollster resin for a boat hull.
-Joel Grist
> On Jul 5, 2020, at 12:26 PM, gdinwiddie <sunfish@...> wrote:
>
> ?Joel,
>
> I recommend grinding and glassing the keel, too. Just applying thickened resin is unlikely to survive long.
>
> Here's a page I created when doing similar repairs on a friend's boat: Note the resin-only patch that a previous owner had tried.
>
> I used polyester resin instead of epoxy. I tend to use epoxy only in cases where I think I will need the adhesive characteristics. When grinding and laying up a cloth patch, that's not necessary. I prefer to keep the hull to one family of resin to make future repairs easier.
>
> - George
>
>> On 7/5/20 7:34 AM, Joel Grist wrote:
>> ?Your message has made me realize I made a leap in logic.? When I pulled the swamped boat onto the sloped sand, water came out the traveler holes. But I didn’t see the source of the leak and assumed.
>> There’s a place on the right chine I can press through.? There is a place on the keel that gives to pressing.? These are the big ones I found on visual/manual inspection and must be repaired before a pressure leak test would do any good, I imagine.
>> I’m attaching pictures here and hope they come through.
>> The one on the keel is a terrible picture. My plan on it is thickened epoxy.
>> On the chine, it’s going to need some fiberglass for sure.
>> This is a first time epoxy project for me. I was hoping to get some smaller quantities of resin hardener and glass cloth at a big box hardware store. All they had was JB Weld and Loctite products and no glass cloth. I’ll look at Total Boat next but if there are any other ideas on getting smaller quantities I’d be much obliged.
>> Thank you also to Charlie for your suggestions. I’ll look specifically for your recs for thickened epoxy. But it turns out I have a ways to go before I can even get to a leak test to determine if those traveler holes are even a source.
>> My many thanks,
>> -Joel
>>>> On Jul 4, 2020, at 10:57 PM, Breezebender via <monicademeo=[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?Are you sure those holes for the traveler go through the Interior hull?? They shouldn’t.? Can you send a picture of the damage?? Where else is it leaking?
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jul 4, 2020, at 2:54 PM, Signal Charlie <lewis.kent@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ?Worth repairing. We would inject thickened epoxy out of a caulk cartridge into a syringe, then use the syringe to slowly fill that hole. Thickened epoxy brands are either TotalBoat THIXO or Pettit FLEXPOXY
>>>> --
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Clark and Skipper
>>>> Our blog Small Boat Restoration <>
>>>> Our book The Sunfish Owners Manual <>
>>>
>> _._,_._,_
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>? When I remember bygone days? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?George Dinwiddie
>? I think how evening follows morn;? ? ? ? ? ? gdinwiddie@...
>? So many I loved were not yet dead,? ? ? ? ? ?
>? So many I love were not yet born.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? also see:
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?'The Middle' by Ogden Nash? ? ?
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
-- Kent B. Lewis
(850) 449-4841
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?
|
You need to thoroughly scrub the boat before you start the repair,? too. Agree with grinding out bd spots and appropriate fiberglass and 2 part epoxy repairs.?
|
Polyester is easier to work with, especially for amateurs. Just make sure you've got a wide enough area to bond.
And that Petit rep was trying to sell you something. And is flat-out wrong.
- George
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On 7/5/20 5:33 PM, Signal Charlie wrote: The Sunfish are made with polyester resin. Old School. It is cheaper than epoxy resin, New School. Epoxy bonds to poly but not as well the other way poly to epoxy. Boat pros I have talked to recommend epoxy for REPAIRS, and Polyester for BUILDS. One rep from Pettit told me that some insurance companies would only cover the repair?if it was done with epoxy.
Talk amongst yourselves...
On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 3:55 PM Joel Grist <TruckLawyer@... <mailto:TruckLawyer@...>> wrote:
Is this a test?? I’ve heard never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever
pollster resin for a boat hull.
-Joel Grist
> On Jul 5, 2020, at 12:26 PM, gdinwiddie <sunfish@...
<mailto:sunfish@...>> wrote:
>
> ?Joel,
>
> I recommend grinding and glassing the keel, too. Just applying
thickened resin is unlikely to survive long.
>
> Here's a page I created when doing similar repairs on a friend's
boat: Note
the resin-only patch that a previous owner had tried.
>
> I used polyester resin instead of epoxy. I tend to use epoxy only
in cases where I think I will need the adhesive characteristics.
When grinding and laying up a cloth patch, that's not necessary. I
prefer to keep the hull to one family of resin to make future
repairs easier.
>
> - George
>
>> On 7/5/20 7:34 AM, Joel Grist wrote:
>> ?Your message has made me realize I made a leap in logic.? When
I pulled the swamped boat onto the sloped sand, water came out the
traveler holes. But I didn’t see the source of the leak and assumed.
>> There’s a place on the right chine I can press through.? There
is a place on the keel that gives to pressing.? These are the big
ones I found on visual/manual inspection and must be repaired before
a pressure leak test would do any good, I imagine.
>> I’m attaching pictures here and hope they come through.
>> The one on the keel is a terrible picture. My plan on it is
thickened epoxy.
>> On the chine, it’s going to need some fiberglass for sure.
>> This is a first time epoxy project for me. I was hoping to get
some smaller quantities of resin hardener and glass cloth at a big
box hardware store. All they had was JB Weld and Loctite products
and no glass cloth. I’ll look at Total Boat next but if there are
any other ideas on getting smaller quantities I’d be much obliged.
>> Thank you also to Charlie for your suggestions. I’ll look
specifically for your recs for thickened epoxy. But it turns out I
have a ways to go before I can even get to a leak test to determine
if those traveler holes are even a source.
>> My many thanks,
>> -Joel
>>>> On Jul 4, 2020, at 10:57 PM, Breezebender via groups.io
<> <monicademeo@...
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?Are you sure those holes for the traveler go through the
Interior hull?? They shouldn’t.? Can you send a picture of the
damage?? Where else is it leaking?
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jul 4, 2020, at 2:54 PM, Signal Charlie
<lewis.kent@... <mailto:lewis.kent@...>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ?Worth repairing. We would inject thickened epoxy out of a
caulk cartridge into a syringe, then use the syringe to slowly fill
that hole. Thickened epoxy brands are either TotalBoat THIXO or
Pettit FLEXPOXY
>>>> --
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Clark and Skipper
>>>> Our blog Small Boat Restoration
<>
>>>> Our book The Sunfish Owners Manual
<>
>>>
>>
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I remember bygone days George Dinwiddie
I think how evening follows morn; gdinwiddie@...
So many I loved were not yet dead,
So many I love were not yet born. also see:
'The Middle' by Ogden Nash
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|
Hey George
You are correct, the Pettit Rep was trying to sell me something. But his experience with the insurance company, maybe just one company, came from his previous life as a big boat repair guy. I think they key bit of info I picked up from his story was that the epoxy resin supposedly made a stronger repair. So I don't want to report my story wrong or try to influence folks one way or another, it is possible that the insurance company was wrong.
Please tell us more about your experience with polyester resins. I have heard that they are a lot cheaper than epoxy resin and good to?use for large?projects. I have not noticed them for sale at my favorite haunts, but I haven't looked for them. I don't know where to look for them or who the?best manufacturers and suppliers?are. Do you have a favorite and have you worked with them a lot? I also hear they smell bad and were more hazardous to work with than epoxy. Let's see, what else...this info below came from the web (Ref:?) Some of the info sounds like sales talk, other bits of the info are in line with what the Team Epoxy folks repeat.
EPOXY RESIN CHARACTERISTICS:- -Epoxy is extremely strong and has great flexural strength. Our??and??epoxy resins have a flexural strength of 17,500 psi. Our??and 400/11 epoxy resins have a flexural strength of 12,800 psi.
- -Epoxy has a great shelf life. While we guarantee our epoxy resins for 6 months, you can reasonably expect the epoxy to last at least a few years properly? stored on the shelf.
- -You cannot vary the cure time of epoxy resin. Epoxy resin’s cure time is determined by the hardener and the temperature. Our 300 resin with 21 hardener has a cure time of 24 hours at 70 F. Our??has a cure time of 60 minutes at 70 F. Adding more hardener will not make it cure more quickly! Too much hardener will actually make the cured epoxy rubbery. You can decrease the cure time by raising the ambient temperature around the epoxy resin. For every 10 F the temperature is raised above 70F, you can cut the cure time by 10%. However, don’t raise the temperature over 100 F.
- -A gallon of epoxy generally costs slightly more than polyester resin.
- -Epoxies like ours that are 100% solids are low to no VOC. They have a hardly any odor. Epoxy is also non-flammable.
- -Epoxy cures fully when applied as a thin film, making it ideal for adhesive applications.
- -Epoxy does not shrink when cured.
- -Epoxy is very resistant to wear, cracking, peeling, corrosion and damage from chemical and environmental degradation.
- -Once cured, epoxy is moisture resistant.
- -Epoxy is not, on its own, UV resistant. Some epoxies have a UV resistant additive added to them that works moderately well. However, the best way to ensure that your epoxy doesn’t yellow or breakdown from UV rays is to top coat it with clear UV resistant urethane. Then, you will have the strength and durability of the epoxy and the UV protection of the urethane.
- -Epoxy generally has a bonding strength of up to 2,000 psi.
- -Epoxy will not bond to polyethylene, polypropylene, EPDM, anodized aluminum, Teflon or Tedlar.
POLYESTER RESIN CHARACTERISTICS:- -Polyester resin is brittle and prone to micro-cracking.
- -The shelf life of polyester resin is about 6 months – 1 year.
- -You can vary the cure time of polyester resin by adding more or less of MEKP catalyst.
- -Polyester resin generally costs slightly less than epoxy resin.
- -Polyester off-gases VOCs and has strong, flammable fumes.
- Polyester resin does not cure well as a thin film, so it doesn’t work well as an adhesive.
- -The larger the pour, the more polyester resin shrinks when cured.
- -Polyester resin is UV resistant and does not need to be top coated to prevent yellowing or degradation from sunlight.
- -Once cured, polyester resin is water permeable, meaning water can pass through it eventually.
- -The bonding strength of polyester resin is generally less than 500 psi.
- -Polyester resin will not bond to epoxy resin.
-- Kent B. Lewis
(850) 449-4841
-- Cheers Clark and Skipper Our blog Our book?
|
The entire boat was made from polyester resin, ever since they switched from using wood. At least for fifty years' worth of production. I'd be curious to know if the more recent builds in China or England are made from polyester or epoxy resin.
You can find Bondo resin, hardener, cloth and filler, cheaply in any auto parts store and also the auto parts section of Home Repair megastores. A small basic kit is around twenty bucks, some come with a small pack of glass cloth, but you generally have a better selection of cloth and mat online.
Polyester does have a pungent odor as you mix it; you want to do this outside or in a well-ventilated garage or shop, and wear nitrile gloves and maybe a respirator. OTOH, most of our repairs are not really very large, the quantities used are small, so the exposure risk isn't quite as bad. ?It's not super-common but you *can* develop an allergy to either Polyester OR epoxy if you over-expose to them, so be careful and hygienic using either one.
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I read where polyester resins used to have a higher concentration of styrene, but more recent blend have reduced levels. Dermatitis is a possible result for overexposure to both polyester and epoxy resins, so it in not recommended to bathe in them or drink them :) Read the MSDS and take proper PPE precautions.
The entire boat was made from polyester resin, ever since they switched from using wood. At least for fifty years' worth of production. I'd be curious to know if the more recent builds in China or England are made from polyester or epoxy resin.
You can find Bondo resin, hardener, cloth and filler, cheaply in any auto parts store and also the auto parts section of Home Repair megastores. A small basic kit is around twenty bucks, some come with a small pack of glass cloth, but you generally have a better selection of cloth and mat online.
Polyester does have a pungent odor as you mix it; you want to do this outside or in a well-ventilated garage or shop, and wear nitrile gloves and maybe a respirator. OTOH, most of our repairs are not really very large, the quantities used are small, so the exposure risk isn't quite as bad.? It's not super-common but you *can* develop an allergy to either Polyester OR epoxy if you over-expose to them, so be careful and hygienic using either one.
-- Kent B. Lewis
(850) 449-4841
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?
|
Charlie,
I've gotten polyester resin and hardener at many hardware stores as well as boat stores. Beware using non-marine polyester filler, but the resin is fine.
Both epoxy and polyester have their advantages and disadvantages. I prefer, in general, to repair polyester boats with polyester resins so as to not create problems for future repairs. As you note, polyester will not adhere to epoxy. In fact, polyester isn't really an adhesive. It forms a mechanical bond with the cured resin. This is why it's important to rough sand a taper around the hole, at least 3 inches, to give a good bond. When patching, I like to lay up all layers in one day, without letting the resin completely cure between layers. I let them kick off and become hard, but the next layer can still chemically bond, saving some sanding and probably giving a stronger layup. BTW, if you let epoxy cure, you need to wash the amine blush off with soap and water, and then dry the surface, before continuing.
Polyester is air-inhibited, so the surface will not cure completely in the air. That's why very thin applications don't work very well. The normal way to get the surface to cure is to coat it with PVA (poly-vinyl alcohol). On small boat repairs, I typically just sand it smooth and spray it with appliance enamel.
Polyester gives off a lot of styrene, which is what you smell. If you're working indoors, use a respirator. If you're working with large quantities and frequently, use a respirator. If you're patching a Sunfish outside, the fumes will likely blow away. Prefer working from the windward side, and hold your breath for a moment if you smell it. I have a respirator but no longer use it when doing small patches like this. When I do use it, I load my beard up with glove-cote to seal the airflow around the respirator.
I've done a lot of repairs on Sunfish and other small boats when my grandkids were in a junior sailing program. Kids are hard on boats, and they often need patches. The method of working outlined in emerged from that. It will not give the most pristine results, but they will be reasonably good, strong, and functional. If you're working on a show-quality boat, you'll want a seasoned professional working on it.
The biggest resin job I've done was helping a friend replace the rotten plywood deck of his 21' center console with Coosa board covered with glass. Another friend was mixing the resin for us as fast as they could, and we went through several gallons on one hot afternoon. That was about 20 years ago and that boat is still rock solid.
I've also done a lot of deck re-coring on my Alberg 30, also with polyester. That requires a little more care than the small boat repairs. When I repaired the forward edge of the bow, I used epoxy because I was concerned about getting enough grip across the width with the polyester. But otherwise, I've used polyester and have no trouble getting insurance.
Oh, epoxy resins have remarkably different characteristics depending on trace amounts of additives in the resin and/or hardener. I had a great conversation some decades back with the chemist for a boat builder who built with epoxy. That chemistry is not for amateurs like me. It's also a warning that not all epoxies are alike.
Use what you want. I'm not interested in re-engineering an old Sunfish, so I use what's worked for it it's whole life.
- George
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On 7/6/20 5:52 AM, Signal Charlie wrote: Hey George
You are correct, the Pettit Rep was trying to sell me something. But his experience with the insurance company, maybe just one company, came from his previous life as a big boat repair guy. I think they key bit of info I picked up from his story was that the epoxy resin supposedly made a stronger repair. So I don't want to report my story wrong or try to influence folks one way or another, it is possible that the _insurance company_ was wrong.
Please tell us more about your experience with polyester resins. I have heard that they are a lot cheaper than epoxy resin and good to?use for large?projects. I have not noticed them for sale at my favorite haunts, but I haven't looked for them. I don't know where to look for them or who the?best manufacturers and suppliers?are. Do you have a favorite and have you worked with them a lot? I also hear they smell bad and were more hazardous to work with than epoxy. Let's see, what else...this info below came from the web (Ref: ) Some of the info sounds like sales talk, other bits of the info are in line with what the Team Epoxy folks repeat.
EPOXY RESIN CHARACTERISTICS:
* -Epoxy is extremely strong and has great flexural strength. Our
300/21 <>?and
400/21
<>?epoxy
resins have a flexural strength of 17,500 psi. Our 300/11
<>?and
400/11 epoxy resins have a flexural strength of 12,800 psi.
* -Epoxy has a great shelf life. While we guarantee our epoxy resins
for 6 months, you can reasonably expect the epoxy to last at least a
few years properly? stored on the shelf.
* -You cannot vary the cure time of epoxy resin. Epoxy resin’s cure
time is determined by the hardener and the temperature. Our 300
resin with 21 hardener has a cure time of 24 hours at 70 F. Our 5
Minute Epoxy
<>?has
a cure time of 60 minutes at 70 F. Adding more hardener will not
make it cure more quickly! Too much hardener will actually make the
cured epoxy rubbery. You can decrease the cure time by raising the
ambient temperature around the epoxy resin. For every 10 F the
temperature is raised above 70F, you can cut the cure time by 10%.
However, don’t raise the temperature over 100 F.
* -A gallon of epoxy generally costs slightly more than polyester resin.
* -Epoxies like ours that are 100% solids are low to no VOC. They have
a hardly any odor. Epoxy is also non-flammable.
* -Epoxy cures fully when applied as a thin film, making it ideal for
adhesive applications.
* -Epoxy does not shrink when cured.
* -Epoxy is very resistant to wear, cracking, peeling, corrosion and
damage from chemical and environmental degradation.
* -Once cured, epoxy is moisture resistant.
* -Epoxy is not, on its own, UV resistant. Some epoxies have a UV
resistant additive added to them that works moderately well.
However, the best way to ensure that your epoxy doesn’t yellow or
breakdown from UV rays is to top coat it with clear UV resistant
urethane. Then, you will have the strength and durability of the
epoxy and the UV protection of the urethane.
* -Epoxy generally has a bonding strength of up to 2,000 psi.
* -Epoxy will not bond to polyethylene, polypropylene, EPDM, anodized
aluminum, Teflon or Tedlar.
POLYESTER RESIN CHARACTERISTICS:
* -Polyester resin is brittle and prone to micro-cracking.
* -The shelf life of polyester resin is about 6 months – 1 year.
* -You can vary the cure time of polyester resin by adding more or
less of MEKP catalyst.
* -Polyester resin generally costs slightly less than epoxy resin.
* -Polyester off-gases VOCs and has strong, flammable fumes.
* Polyester resin does not cure well as a thin film, so it doesn’t
work well as an adhesive.
* -The larger the pour, the more polyester resin shrinks when cured.
* -Polyester resin is UV resistant and does not need to be top coated
to prevent yellowing or degradation from sunlight.
* -Once cured, polyester resin is water permeable, meaning water can
pass through it eventually.
* -The bonding strength of polyester resin is generally less than 500 psi.
* -Polyester resin will not bond to epoxy resin.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I remember bygone days George Dinwiddie
I think how evening follows morn; gdinwiddie@...
So many I loved were not yet dead,
So many I love were not yet born. also see:
'The Middle' by Ogden Nash
----------------------------------------------------------------------
|
Awesome information, thank you for sharing, the?best reason that this group exists. Great tips, and I especially like the comment at the end of not reengineering the Sunfish, we are fans of the basic boat, wood blades, colorful sails, one stick one string.?
You kept a lot of kids happy fixing their boats, that's special.
Thank you again for all of the great info.
Cheers Kent
On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 3:02 PM gdinwiddie < sunfish@...> wrote: Charlie,
I've gotten polyester resin and hardener at many hardware stores as well
as boat stores. Beware using non-marine polyester filler, but the resin
is fine.
Both epoxy and polyester have their advantages and disadvantages. I
prefer, in general, to repair polyester boats with polyester resins so
as to not create problems for future repairs. As you note, polyester
will not adhere to epoxy. In fact, polyester isn't really an adhesive.
It forms a mechanical bond with the cured resin. This is why it's
important to rough sand a taper around the hole, at least 3 inches, to
give a good bond. When patching, I like to lay up all layers in one day,
without letting the resin completely cure between layers. I let them
kick off and become hard, but the next layer can still chemically bond,
saving some sanding and probably giving a stronger layup. BTW, if you
let epoxy cure, you need to wash the amine blush off with soap and
water, and then dry the surface, before continuing.
Polyester is air-inhibited, so the surface will not cure completely in
the air. That's why very thin applications don't work very well. The
normal way to get the surface to cure is to coat it with PVA (poly-vinyl
alcohol). On small boat repairs, I typically just sand it smooth and
spray it with appliance enamel.
Polyester gives off a lot of styrene, which is what you smell. If you're
working indoors, use a respirator. If you're working with large
quantities and frequently, use a respirator. If you're patching a
Sunfish outside, the fumes will likely blow away. Prefer working from
the windward side, and hold your breath for a moment if you smell it. I
have a respirator but no longer use it when doing small patches like
this. When I do use it, I load my beard up with glove-cote to seal the
airflow around the respirator.
I've done a lot of repairs on Sunfish and other small boats when my
grandkids were in a junior sailing program. Kids are hard on boats, and
they often need patches. The method of working outlined in
emerged from
that. It will not give the most pristine results, but they will be
reasonably good, strong, and functional. If you're working on a
show-quality boat, you'll want a seasoned professional working on it.
The biggest resin job I've done was helping a friend replace the rotten
plywood deck of his 21' center console with Coosa board covered with
glass. Another friend was mixing the resin for us as fast as they could,
and we went through several gallons on one hot afternoon. That was about
20 years ago and that boat is still rock solid.
I've also done a lot of deck re-coring on my Alberg 30, also with
polyester. That requires a little more care than the small boat repairs.
When I repaired the forward edge of the bow, I used epoxy because I was
concerned about getting enough grip across the width with the polyester.
But otherwise, I've used polyester and have no trouble getting insurance.
Oh, epoxy resins have remarkably different characteristics depending on
trace amounts of additives in the resin and/or hardener. I had a great
conversation some decades back with the chemist for a boat builder who
built with epoxy. That chemistry is not for amateurs like me. It's also
a warning that not all epoxies are alike.
Use what you want. I'm not interested in re-engineering an old Sunfish,
so I use what's worked for it it's whole life.
? - George
On 7/6/20 5:52 AM, Signal Charlie wrote:
> Hey George
>
> You are correct, the Pettit Rep was trying to sell me something. But his
> experience with the insurance company, maybe just one company, came from
> his previous life as a big boat repair guy. I think they key bit of info
> I picked up from his story was that the epoxy resin supposedly made a
> stronger repair. So I don't want to report my story wrong or try to
> influence folks one way or another, it is possible that the _insurance
> company_ was wrong.
>
> Please tell us more about your experience with polyester resins. I have
> heard that they are a lot cheaper than epoxy resin and good to?use for
> large?projects. I have not noticed them for sale at my favorite haunts,
> but I haven't looked for them. I don't know where to look for them or
> who the?best manufacturers and suppliers?are. Do you have a favorite and
> have you worked with them a lot? I also hear they smell bad and were
> more hazardous to work with than epoxy. Let's see, what else...this info
> below came from the web (Ref:
> ) Some
> of the info sounds like sales talk, other bits of the info are in line
> with what the Team Epoxy folks repeat.
>
>
>? ? ?EPOXY RESIN CHARACTERISTICS:
>
>? ?* -Epoxy is extremely strong and has great flexural strength. Our
>? ? ?300/21 <>?and
>? ? ?400/21
>? ? ?<>?epoxy
>? ? ?resins have a flexural strength of 17,500 psi. Our 300/11
>? ? ?<>?and
>? ? ?400/11 epoxy resins have a flexural strength of 12,800 psi.
>? ?* -Epoxy has a great shelf life. While we guarantee our epoxy resins
>? ? ?for 6 months, you can reasonably expect the epoxy to last at least a
>? ? ?few years properly? stored on the shelf.
>? ?* -You cannot vary the cure time of epoxy resin. Epoxy resin’s cure
>? ? ?time is determined by the hardener and the temperature. Our 300
>? ? ?resin with 21 hardener has a cure time of 24 hours at 70 F. Our 5
>? ? ?Minute Epoxy
>? ? ?<>?has
>? ? ?a cure time of 60 minutes at 70 F. Adding more hardener will not
>? ? ?make it cure more quickly! Too much hardener will actually make the
>? ? ?cured epoxy rubbery. You can decrease the cure time by raising the
>? ? ?ambient temperature around the epoxy resin. For every 10 F the
>? ? ?temperature is raised above 70F, you can cut the cure time by 10%.
>? ? ?However, don’t raise the temperature over 100 F.
>? ?* -A gallon of epoxy generally costs slightly more than polyester resin.
>? ?* -Epoxies like ours that are 100% solids are low to no VOC. They have
>? ? ?a hardly any odor. Epoxy is also non-flammable.
>? ?* -Epoxy cures fully when applied as a thin film, making it ideal for
>? ? ?adhesive applications.
>? ?* -Epoxy does not shrink when cured.
>? ?* -Epoxy is very resistant to wear, cracking, peeling, corrosion and
>? ? ?damage from chemical and environmental degradation.
>? ?* -Once cured, epoxy is moisture resistant.
>? ?* -Epoxy is not, on its own, UV resistant. Some epoxies have a UV
>? ? ?resistant additive added to them that works moderately well.
>? ? ?However, the best way to ensure that your epoxy doesn’t yellow or
>? ? ?breakdown from UV rays is to top coat it with clear UV resistant
>? ? ?urethane. Then, you will have the strength and durability of the
>? ? ?epoxy and the UV protection of the urethane.
>? ?* -Epoxy generally has a bonding strength of up to 2,000 psi.
>? ?* -Epoxy will not bond to polyethylene, polypropylene, EPDM, anodized
>? ? ?aluminum, Teflon or Tedlar.
>
>
>? ? ?POLYESTER RESIN CHARACTERISTICS:
>
>? ?* -Polyester resin is brittle and prone to micro-cracking.
>? ?* -The shelf life of polyester resin is about 6 months – 1 year.
>? ?* -You can vary the cure time of polyester resin by adding more or
>? ? ?less of MEKP catalyst.
>? ?* -Polyester resin generally costs slightly less than epoxy resin.
>? ?* -Polyester off-gases VOCs and has strong, flammable fumes.
>? ?* Polyester resin does not cure well as a thin film, so it doesn’t
>? ? ?work well as an adhesive.
>? ?* -The larger the pour, the more polyester resin shrinks when cured.
>? ?* -Polyester resin is UV resistant and does not need to be top coated
>? ? ?to prevent yellowing or degradation from sunlight.
>? ?* -Once cured, polyester resin is water permeable, meaning water can
>? ? ?pass through it eventually.
>? ?* -The bonding strength of polyester resin is generally less than 500 psi.
>? ?* -Polyester resin will not bond to epoxy resin.
--
? ----------------------------------------------------------------------
? ?When I remember bygone days? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?George Dinwiddie
? ?I think how evening follows morn;? ? ? ? ? ? gdinwiddie@...
? ?So many I loved were not yet dead,? ? ? ? ? ?
? ?So many I love were not yet born.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? also see:
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 'The Middle' by Ogden Nash? ? ?
? ----------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Kent B. Lewis
(850) 449-4841
--
Cheers
Clark and Skipper
Our blog
Our book?
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On Jul 6, 2020, at 4:02 PM, gdinwiddie < sunfish@...> wrote: Polyester is air-inhibited, so the surface will not cure completely in the air. That's why very thin applications don't work very well.
My understanding of this is simply that the catalyst supplied with polyester resin is a thin liquid that can evaporate, and in the resin near the surface it does evaporate, leaving the surface resin un-catalyzed. ?At least in the days when I last used polyester (35 years ago) some polyester resin would come with a little bit of wax mixed in, which would float to the surface and seal it well enough that the catalyst would stay in and the surface would cure. ?BUT then if you had another layer of glass to apply, you’d have to get that wax off or you’d get no adhesion at all.
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Signal Charlie
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