|
I recently went modern and purchased a box of subject tool bits.? I had been led to believe that tool preparation was a thing of the past.
My 9" Model A? complained with growling and chattering, making a mess of a cut.? Investigation showed that the tool had no clearance between the shank and the work.?
Setting the point on centre helped for a few seconds but then the growling restarted.?
It appears to me that although the triangular insert is shaped, and might have necessary clearances, these are only on the thin insert.? The shank is only cut away parallel to one side of the triangle, the leading edge is vertical (shaped like a WWI destroyer bow).? Is it intended that we grind the shanks to provide the necessary clearances?? ?
|
A picture would sure help here. I have put a little extra clearance on certain insert tools at times but these were for unusual cuts. Is this just normal OD turning??
--
Bill From Socal
|
The type of insert may be the problem. I recently had to turn 5" diameter 304 stainless and my "normal" inserts just were not doing a good job. Talked to a tooling guy and got some Sumitomo inserts which cut that stuff like butter. The edges appeared to be much sharper than my other inserts and last a lot longer too. I'm hooked on the new inserts and won't go back to the cheap ones.??
--
Bill From Socal
|
Bill: Could you provide suggested part numbers?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Mar 5, 2024, at 10:06 AM, William Nelson < wnnelson@...> wrote:
The type of insert may be the problem. I recently had to turn 5" diameter 304 stainless and my "normal" inserts just were not doing a good job. Talked to a tooling guy and got some Sumitomo inserts which cut that stuff like butter. The edges appeared to be much sharper than my other inserts and last a lot longer too. I'm hooked on the new inserts and won't go back to the cheap ones.??
--
Bill From Socal
|
I'm assuming TCMT tooling? ?I use this on my SB9A and SB13 all the time, no issues. ?What type of material? ?Let's see a picture of your setup.
|
Yes, I have had to grind the insert holder on some tools.? It was easy and not particularly critical.? Just support the edge of the insert as well as you can.? After that they worked fine.
|
First thing is to make sure you have the correct tool holder for the insert. There are 2 main styles. Negative and neutral (positive) style. On the negative style, if you look at your tool holder the tip will tilt at a downward angle. On a neutral, the tip will point straight out being parallel to the top of the holder. The insert for a negative the clearance angle is 90 degrees to the top. On the positive insert, you can see a clearance angle on the tip. These are one side usage only. The tool holder provides clearance. The This allows you to use both top and bottom side of the insert. Normally the holder will have a N for negative or P for positive in its part number. ? If you have the correct style, then what Bill said below applies. Al-USA ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jack Dinan
Sent: Tuesday, March 5, 2024 10:09 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Indexable carbide insert turning tools? Bill: Could you provide suggested part numbers?
On Mar 5, 2024, at 10:06 AM, William Nelson <wnnelson@...> wrote: ? The type of insert may be the problem. I recently had to turn 5" diameter 304 stainless and my "normal" inserts just were not doing a good job. Talked to a tooling guy and got some Sumitomo inserts which cut that stuff like butter. The edges appeared to be much sharper than my other inserts and last a lot longer too. I'm hooked on the new inserts and won't go back to the cheap ones.??
--
Bill From Socal
?
|
I'm using Sumitomo CCMT32.52ESU AC52OU. Most of these numbers mean something but I always have to look it up. This is the style and size of insert holder I have for external and some internal tools. Not very expensive either. I got 10 for $60 at my local tooling store (Nates Industrial Tools in Torrance CA).? I can walk there if i want but rarely do. Online I belive they are even cheaper. The inserts I had originally came from The Little Machine Shop which were fine for regular mild steel but didn't like the stainless.
--
Bill From Socal
|
?? What set of tool holder & inserts are you using? I've been
running these HSS inserts from HR Warner for years . I'm still on
the original inserts & don't think I have put any insert on
the 3rd tip yet . A couple I'm still on the one it was on when it
left the factory . Super easy to sharpen when needed . The tool
holders will also accept carbide tooling , TPMT I believe . I
can't say that I can recall the tool holders getting in the way
when using this set .
animal
On 3/5/24 7:11 AM, Rick wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I'm assuming TCMT tooling? ?I use this on my SB9A and SB13 all the
time, no issues. ?What type of material? ?Let's see a picture of
your setup.
|
Animal, I guess I just try to push my cutting to hard. I have dulled my Warners cutters many times. The front corner actually get worn down so not as easy to sharpen as just doing the top. These inserts do work well but the lack of a chip breaker is a small problem. They will custom grind them with a breaker but don't know the additional cost. Carbide just lasts longer for me. I just get to impatient I guess.
--
Bill From Socal
|
Sounds like there's something in yer setup that needs adjusting .
How big of cuts are ya trying to make ? Are you on center line
with the work piece ?
animal
On 3/6/24 9:19 AM, William Nelson
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Animal, I guess I just try to push my cutting to hard. I have
dulled my Warners cutters many times. The front corner actually
get worn down so not as easy to sharpen as just doing the top.
These inserts do work well but the lack of a chip breaker is a
small problem. They will custom grind them with a breaker but
don't know the additional cost. Carbide just lasts longer for me.
I just get to impatient I guess.
--
Bill From Socal
|
Thank you all for answering so promptly.??
The first reaction I had was, "Yes I need to grind the insert holder".? ?But before I did that I read again.? There are many references to the tool holder.? A tool holder means the iron you clamp in a tool post.? (HTRL p27 Figs45-50).? It also seems to mean the iron that the triangular inserts are screwed onto. (I am going to refer to these as "insert holders").? ? If the insert holder is mounted in a tool holder the angle of the cutter is raised, and the bottom corner of the insert holder comes into vertical alignment with the cutter tip. That seems to have been my problem.
I sorted it out by changing back to an HSS cutter.?
In future I will try to use HTRL Fig 50A - 10 in 1 holder.? ?This "detail" had not registered in my tiny brain before now.? I hope that I have learned something.
The inserts are advertised as TCMT, but the full p/n is not given.? ?I have now learned that there is much more to carbide inserts than I had thought.??
Thanks again to all who took the time to comment.?
|
What tool holder are you using to hold the insert holder? A TCMT has a 7-degree positive relief angle built into it. Mentioning HTRL makes me think you are using lantern post style holders designed for square HSS bits. As far as I know of, you cannot use those holders with insert holders. They are designed for QCTP that will clamp the insert holder in a horizontal position. Al-USA ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> On Behalf Of straitsman via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2024 3:26 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Indexable carbide insert turning tools? Thank you all for answering so promptly.??
The first reaction I had was, "Yes I need to grind the insert holder".? ?But before I did that I read again.? There are many references to the tool holder.? A tool holder means the iron you clamp in a tool post.? (HTRL p27 Figs45-50).? It also seems to mean the iron that the triangular inserts are screwed onto. (I am going to refer to these as "insert holders").? ? If the insert holder is mounted in a tool holder the angle of the cutter is raised, and the bottom corner of the insert holder comes into vertical alignment with the cutter tip. That seems to have been my problem.
I sorted it out by changing back to an HSS cutter.?
In future I will try to use HTRL Fig 50A - 10 in 1 holder.? ?This "detail" had not registered in my tiny brain before now.? I hope that I have learned something.
The inserts are advertised as TCMT, but the full p/n is not given.? ?I have now learned that there is much more to carbide inserts than I had thought.??
Thanks again to all who took the time to comment.?
|
That would make a lot of sense . The AR Warner cutters I have go
through just about anything I put in front of them like butter . I
just get them on center line & go . If ya are using a lantern
tool post I would think that ya just have to find the right recipe
for a shim to go under the tool holder & on top of the rocker
. I would get rid of the rocker & get a hunk of 1/2 or 3/8"
key stock & make the spacer/shim out of that . I'll go through
my boxes & see if I have my lantern tool post here at my new
place & see if this can even be done? . May also help someone
else down the line .
animal
On 3/6/24 12:40 PM, ww_big_al wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
What tool
holder are you using to hold the insert holder? A TCMT has a
7-degree positive relief angle built into it. Mentioning
HTRL makes me think you are using lantern post style holders
designed for square HSS bits. As far as I know of, you
cannot use those holders with insert holders. They are
designed for QCTP that will clamp the insert holder in a
horizontal position.
Al-USA
?
?
Thank you all for answering so
promptly.??
The first reaction I had was, "Yes I need to grind the
insert holder".? ?But before I did that I read again.? There
are many references to the tool holder.? A tool holder means
the iron you clamp in a tool post.? (HTRL p27 Figs45-50).?
It also seems to mean the iron that the triangular inserts
are screwed onto. (I am going to refer to these as "insert
holders").? ? If the insert holder is mounted in a tool
holder the angle of the cutter is raised, and the bottom
corner of the insert holder comes into vertical alignment
with the cutter tip. That seems to have been my problem.
I sorted it out by changing back to an HSS cutter.?
In future I will try to use HTRL Fig 50A - 10 in 1 holder.?
?This "detail" had not registered in my tiny brain before
now.? I hope that I have learned something.
The inserts are advertised as TCMT, but the full p/n is not
given.? ?I have now learned that there is much more to
carbide inserts than I had thought.??
Thanks again to all who took the time to comment.?
|
And this is why people need to post pictures, so we are not left speculating without really knowing the situation.
|
Something does not click here. are you sure that you are using the correct insert tool holder for your particular insert?
Post a pic please
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of William Nelson <wnnelson@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2024 12:19 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Indexable carbide insert turning tools
?
Animal, I guess I just try to push my cutting to hard. I have dulled my Warners cutters many times. The front corner actually get worn down so not as easy to sharpen as just doing the top. These inserts do work well but the lack of a chip breaker is a
small problem. They will custom grind them with a breaker but don't know the additional cost. Carbide just lasts longer for me. I just get to impatient I guess.
--
Bill From Socal
|
Should be easy to replace the rocker with a rectangular piece, height may have to be shimmed to get top of insert on centerline of the workpiece.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of mike allen <animal@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2024 3:24 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Indexable carbide insert turning tools
?
That would make a lot of sense . The AR Warner cutters I have go through just about anything I put in front of them like butter . I just get them on center line & go . If ya are using a lantern tool post I would think that ya just have to find the right
recipe for a shim to go under the tool holder & on top of the rocker . I would get rid of the rocker & get a hunk of 1/2 or 3/8" key stock & make the spacer/shim out of that . I'll go through my boxes & see if I have my lantern tool post here at my new place
& see if this can even be done? . May also help someone else down the line .
animal
On 3/6/24 12:40 PM, ww_big_al wrote:
What tool holder are you using to hold the insert holder? A TCMT has a 7-degree positive relief angle built into it. Mentioning HTRL makes me think you are using lantern post style holders designed for square
HSS bits. As far as I know of, you cannot use those holders with insert holders. They are designed for QCTP that will clamp the insert holder in a horizontal position.
Al-USA
?
?
Thank you all for answering so promptly.??
The first reaction I had was, "Yes I need to grind the insert holder".? ?But before I did that I read again.? There are many references to the tool holder.? A tool holder means the iron you clamp in a tool post.? (HTRL p27 Figs45-50).? It also seems to mean
the iron that the triangular inserts are screwed onto. (I am going to refer to these as "insert holders").? ? If the insert holder is mounted in a tool holder the angle of the cutter is raised, and the bottom corner of the insert holder comes into vertical
alignment with the cutter tip. That seems to have been my problem.
I sorted it out by changing back to an HSS cutter.?
In future I will try to use HTRL Fig 50A - 10 in 1 holder.? ?This "detail" had not registered in my tiny brain before now.? I hope that I have learned something.
The inserts are advertised as TCMT, but the full p/n is not given.? ?I have now learned that there is much more to carbide inserts than I had thought.??
Thanks again to all who took the time to comment.?
|
Why are people still using lanterns?? Get yourself a chunk of square steel, hold in 4 jaw, hole through the middle, clamp down on top of compound, milling cutter in chuck, 8 tapped holes & you've got a 4 way that holds any sort of tool.? This assumes you don't want to lay out €?$ on a QCTP.
Eddie
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
-------- Original message -------- From: Robert Bradley <rcbradley@...> Date: 07/03/2024 00:03 (GMT+00:00) To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Indexable carbide insert turning tools
Should be easy to replace the rocker with a rectangular piece, height may have to be shimmed to get top of insert on centerline of the workpiece.
From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of mike allen <animal@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2024 3:24 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Indexable carbide insert turning tools
?
That would make a lot of sense . The AR Warner cutters I have go through just about anything I put in front of them like butter . I just get them on center line & go . If ya are using a lantern tool post I would think that ya just have to find the right
recipe for a shim to go under the tool holder & on top of the rocker . I would get rid of the rocker & get a hunk of 1/2 or 3/8" key stock & make the spacer/shim out of that . I'll go through my boxes & see if I have my lantern tool post here at my new place
& see if this can even be done? . May also help someone else down the line .
animal
On 3/6/24 12:40 PM, ww_big_al wrote:
What tool holder are you using to hold the insert holder? A TCMT has a 7-degree positive relief angle built into it. Mentioning HTRL makes me think you are using lantern post style holders designed for square
HSS bits. As far as I know of, you cannot use those holders with insert holders. They are designed for QCTP that will clamp the insert holder in a horizontal position.
Al-USA
?
?
Thank you all for answering so promptly.??
The first reaction I had was, "Yes I need to grind the insert holder".? ?But before I did that I read again.? There are many references to the tool holder.? A tool holder means the iron you clamp in a tool post.? (HTRL p27 Figs45-50).? It also seems to mean
the iron that the triangular inserts are screwed onto. (I am going to refer to these as "insert holders").? ? If the insert holder is mounted in a tool holder the angle of the cutter is raised, and the bottom corner of the insert holder comes into vertical
alignment with the cutter tip. That seems to have been my problem.
I sorted it out by changing back to an HSS cutter.?
In future I will try to use HTRL Fig 50A - 10 in 1 holder.? ?This "detail" had not registered in my tiny brain before now.? I hope that I have learned something.
The inserts are advertised as TCMT, but the full p/n is not given.? ?I have now learned that there is much more to carbide inserts than I had thought.??
Thanks again to all who took the time to comment.?
|
I keep meaning to make a 4 way for my home built Gingery Lathe but truthful with the QCTP on the Heavy 10L I rarely use the Gingery.? Money spent on a QCTP is not wasted.? At least as you get older and time becomes more expensive. John ? ?
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io [mailto:SouthBendLathe@groups.io] On Behalf Of eddie.draper@... via groups.io
Sent: March 7, 2024 12:01 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Indexable carbide insert turning tools? Why are people still using lanterns?? Get yourself a chunk of square steel, hold in 4 jaw, hole through the middle, clamp down on top of compound, milling cutter in chuck, 8 tapped holes & you've got a 4 way that holds any sort of tool.? This assumes you don't want to lay out €?$ on a QCTP. -------- Original message -------- From: Robert Bradley <rcbradley@...> Date: 07/03/2024 00:03 (GMT+00:00) To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Indexable carbide insert turning tools Should be easy to replace the rocker with a rectangular piece, height may have to be shimmed to get top of insert on centerline of the workpiece.
From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of mike allen <animal@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2024 3:24 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Indexable carbide insert turning tools That would make a lot of sense . The AR Warner cutters I have go through just about anything I put in front of them like butter . I just get them on center line & go . If ya are using a lantern tool post I would think that ya just have to find the right recipe for a shim to go under the tool holder & on top of the rocker . I would get rid of the rocker & get a hunk of 1/2 or 3/8" key stock & make the spacer/shim out of that . I'll go through my boxes & see if I have my lantern tool post here at my new place & see if this can even be done? . May also help someone else down the line . animal On 3/6/24 12:40 PM, ww_big_al wrote: What tool holder are you using to hold the insert holder? A TCMT has a 7-degree positive relief angle built into it. Mentioning HTRL makes me think you are using lantern post style holders designed for square HSS bits. As far as I know of, you cannot use those holders with insert holders. They are designed for QCTP that will clamp the insert holder in a horizontal position. Al-USA ? ? Thank you all for answering so promptly.??
The first reaction I had was, "Yes I need to grind the insert holder".? ?But before I did that I read again.? There are many references to the tool holder.? A tool holder means the iron you clamp in a tool post.? (HTRL p27 Figs45-50).? It also seems to mean the iron that the triangular inserts are screwed onto. (I am going to refer to these as "insert holders").? ? If the insert holder is mounted in a tool holder the angle of the cutter is raised, and the bottom corner of the insert holder comes into vertical alignment with the cutter tip. That seems to have been my problem.
I sorted it out by changing back to an HSS cutter.?
In future I will try to use HTRL Fig 50A - 10 in 1 holder.? ?This "detail" had not registered in my tiny brain before now.? I hope that I have learned something.
The inserts are advertised as TCMT, but the full p/n is not given.? ?I have now learned that there is much more to carbide inserts than I had thought.??
Thanks again to all who took the time to comment.?
|
Because lanterns work better for some things. And Blocks work better for some other things, so you should have one of those, too. Likewise a QCTP and lots of tool holders to fit it. Depends on what you're doing as to which is best.?
Lantern will let you push the size limits of your lathe a bit better than the others. A block tool post works better if you have a small number of tools you usually use, and a QCTP is is best for high volume production work on complex parts.?
One advantage to the lantern post is that you can forge specialty tools in a high carbon tool steel and get incredibly sharp edges for tricky work. With a couple hundred years of fantastic work to back it up. ;)?
Blocks & QCTPs are more convenient but not quite as versatile. Which is best depends on what you need to do. And you can still do good work even if you don't have the best toolpost. It's probably going to be a bit slower, but still doable. I put a QCTP on my Atlas TH42 when I bought it, but kept the lantern post. And if I ever get my SB Heavy 10L restored, it's getting a QCTP also, but I'll be keeping the lantern post too.? Never can tell when you might need a bit more reach.
Bill in OKC?
William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)
Aphorisms to live by: Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.? SEMPER GUMBY!
Expect in one hand, expectorate in the other. See which one gets full first.
On Thursday, March 7, 2024 at 02:00:35 AM CST, eddie.draper@... via groups.io <eddie.draper@...> wrote:
Why are people still using lanterns?? Get yourself a chunk of square steel, hold in 4 jaw, hole through the middle, clamp down on top of compound, milling cutter in chuck, 8 tapped holes & you've got a 4 way that holds any sort of tool.? This assumes you don't want to lay out €?$ on a QCTP.
Eddie
Snip!
|
ww_big_al
eddie.draper@btinternet.com
Bill in OKC too