|
Hi all, I've been holding off on LFP battery conversion but the tariff thing is alarming so I'm considering the substantial purchase of an Epoch?12V 460Ah V2 Elite Series battery? for our 362.? Does anyone know if this particular Group D size battery fits under the starboard berth?? This battery is quite a bit taller than the Group 31s I have in there now (and I'm away from the boat and can't measure).? I realize there's more to LFP conversion than swapping the battery. Thanks,
Bill Graves 2003 S362 #261 'Souwester' Marblehead, MA
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With only one battery there is a single point of failure, if that battery should fail then the only battery left is the smaller start battery. Two smaller batteries would offer redundancy and might be a better physical fit.
Dave Second Star S362 #113 Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario
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On Apr 12, 2025, at 11:48?PM, Bill Graves via groups.io <elfowl77@...> wrote:
Hi all, I've been holding off on LFP battery conversion but the tariff thing is alarming so I'm considering the substantial purchase of an Epoch?12V 460Ah V2 Elite Series battery? for our 362.? Does anyone know if this particular Group D size battery fits under the starboard berth?? This battery is quite a bit taller than the Group 31s I have in there now (and I'm away from the boat and can't measure).? I realize there's more to LFP conversion than swapping the battery. Thanks,
Bill Graves 2003 S362 #261 'Souwester' Marblehead, MA
|
Bill, ? I am looking at the Epoch batteries as well, and did read [possibly in Panbo] the Victron comms in that battery were a bit sketchy and speculation was it would take a while to work the bugs out.? That seems to be the major advantage over the Essentials 460, which also is a shorter height at 8.6” [but longer] vs. the 12” of the Elite.? Is also IP54 vs IP67 so not waterproof, just water resistant.? But it will not be in an open bay like on an RV or van.? That same article indicated one could get the same information using a Victron Smart Shunt with the Essentials.? ? Also read some insurance companies either do not cover LFP, or have very specific requirements if one is making the switch, like having to use a certified ABYC electrician in addition to following all the manufacturer’s installation instructions and charging / maintenance protocols. Unfortunately, according to various online forums, my insurance company seems to be one of the one’s which does not cover LFP.? Need to confirm with them this week.? ? Brian Escapade? S426 CT - LIS ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bill Graves via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2025 11:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [SabreSailboat] Epoch 12V 460Ah LFP battery on Sabre 362?? Hi all, I've been holding off on LFP battery conversion but the tariff thing is alarming so I'm considering the substantial purchase of an Epoch?12V 460Ah V2 Elite Series battery? for our 362.? Does anyone know if this particular Group D size battery fits under the starboard berth?? This battery is quite a bit taller than the Group 31s I have in there now (and I'm away from the boat and can't measure).? I realize there's more to LFP conversion than swapping the battery. 2003 S362 #261 'Souwester'
|
Brian, thank you for reminding me to check with insurance on LFP conversion and for the other tips.? I need to do some more reading and checking.
Dave, I hear you about single point of failure. Two lighter batteries is also attractive. Bill G
On Sun, Apr 13, 2025 at 5:14?AM Nauset Beach via <nausetbeach= [email protected]> wrote: Bill, ? I am looking at the Epoch batteries as well, and did read [possibly in Panbo] the Victron comms in that battery were a bit sketchy and speculation was it would take a while to work the bugs out.? That seems to be the major advantage over the Essentials 460, which also is a shorter height at 8.6” [but longer] vs. the 12” of the Elite.? Is also IP54 vs IP67 so not waterproof, just water resistant.? But it will not be in an open bay like on an RV or van.? That same article indicated one could get the same information using a Victron Smart Shunt with the Essentials.? ? Also read some insurance companies either do not cover LFP, or have very specific requirements if one is making the switch, like having to use a certified ABYC electrician in addition to following all the manufacturer’s installation instructions and charging / maintenance protocols. Unfortunately, according to various online forums, my insurance company seems to be one of the one’s which does not cover LFP.? Need to confirm with them this week.? ? Brian Escapade? S426 CT - LIS ? ? Hi all, I've been holding off on LFP battery conversion but the tariff thing is alarming so I'm considering the substantial purchase of an Epoch?12V 460Ah V2 Elite Series battery? for our 362.? Does anyone know if this particular Group D size battery fits under the starboard berth?? This battery is quite a bit taller than the Group 31s I have in there now (and I'm away from the boat and can't measure).? I realize there's more to LFP conversion than swapping the battery. 2003 S362 #261 'Souwester'
|
I can tell you first hand that two Epoch 12v 300ah fit perfectly under the starboard settee on a 362, I just finished upgrading my electrical system with the help Jordan who is a regular contributor here. We went with a Victron Phoenix IP43 for the charger, 2 - 210w Solar panels, 2 - Victron MPPT Solar charge controllers, a Victron Orion DC-DC, and a Victron Lynx distributor.?
?
Dave
SV Indulgence
362 #229
|
Bill, ? I spoke with an insurance underwriter at my insurance carrier and they will cover LFP conversions, on a case by case basis, though do have some base line requirements: US battery manufacturer and “quality” [my phrasing] US installation.? They do not, as of yet, require ABYC certified installers.? He / they have seen some nightmare situations of “drop in” LFP installations with very poor general boat maintenance, the classic house wiring with wire nuts, unsupported wires, etc. on 30+ yo boats not designed / built to handle the much higher electrical loads of today. ??I mentioned that I doubted any “US” LFP battery was entirely US manufactured, importing parts to be assembled, and he was non-committal.? There also would be a premium increase due to LFP being onboard.? They are concerned with the limited track record of these batteries being installed in the marine environment, with salt exposure and near constant motion, which in their collective mind, increases the potential risks of these batteries.? ? So worth a call to your insurance company. ? Brian ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Bill Graves via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2025 1:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Epoch 12V 460Ah LFP battery on Sabre 362?? Brian, thank you for reminding me to check with insurance on LFP conversion and for the other tips.? I need to do some more reading and checking. Dave, I hear you about single point of failure. Two lighter batteries is also attractive. ? On Sun, Apr 13, 2025 at 5:14?AM Nauset Beach via <nausetbeach=[email protected]> wrote: Bill, ? I am looking at the Epoch batteries as well, and did read [possibly in Panbo] the Victron comms in that battery were a bit sketchy and speculation was it would take a while to work the bugs out.? That seems to be the major advantage over the Essentials 460, which also is a shorter height at 8.6” [but longer] vs. the 12” of the Elite.? Is also IP54 vs IP67 so not waterproof, just water resistant.? But it will not be in an open bay like on an RV or van.? That same article indicated one could get the same information using a Victron Smart Shunt with the Essentials.? ? Also read some insurance companies either do not cover LFP, or have very specific requirements if one is making the switch, like having to use a certified ABYC electrician in addition to following all the manufacturer’s installation instructions and charging / maintenance protocols. Unfortunately, according to various online forums, my insurance company seems to be one of the one’s which does not cover LFP.? Need to confirm with them this week.? ? Brian Escapade? S426 CT - LIS ? ? Hi all, I've been holding off on LFP battery conversion but the tariff thing is alarming so I'm considering the substantial purchase of an Epoch?12V 460Ah V2 Elite Series battery? for our 362.? Does anyone know if this particular Group D size battery fits under the starboard berth?? This battery is quite a bit taller than the Group 31s I have in there now (and I'm away from the boat and can't measure).? I realize there's more to LFP conversion than swapping the battery. 2003 S362 #261 'Souwester'
|
One more comment to add. ?There are ABYC standards for LFP. ?I suggest those of you who have LFP already, if professionally done, get drawing by your installer. ?If it is a DIY find some one to draw them for you. This way you are a step ahead of the insurance company in two ways. ?First off many think there are no standards so lets raise the premium and secondly there are some who reject it completely because they thing it isn’t safe. ?By drawing their attention to the ABYC standards not only will you educate them but you might even get (or not lose) your insurance.
Allison LehmanSwiftsure Yachtsallison@...Cell: 510.912.5800Fax: 510.860.4640
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On Apr 15, 2025, at 5:01?AM, Nauset Beach via groups.io <nausetbeach@...> wrote:
Bill, ? I spoke with an insurance underwriter at my insurance carrier and they will cover LFP conversions, on a case by case basis, though do have some base line requirements: US battery manufacturer and “quality” [my phrasing] US installation.? They do not, as of yet, require ABYC certified installers.? He / they have seen some nightmare situations of “drop in” LFP installations with very poor general boat maintenance, the classic house wiring with wire nuts, unsupported wires, etc. on 30+ yo boats not designed / built to handle the much higher electrical loads of today. ??I mentioned that I doubted any “US” LFP battery was entirely US manufactured, importing parts to be assembled, and he was non-committal.? There also would be a premium increase due to LFP being onboard.? They are concerned with the limited track record of these batteries being installed in the marine environment, with salt exposure and near constant motion, which in their collective mind, increases the potential risks of these batteries.?? ? So worth a call to your insurance company.? ? Brian ? ? Brian, thank you for reminding me to check with insurance on LFP conversion and for the other tips.? I need to do some more reading and checking. Dave, I hear you about single point of failure. Two lighter batteries is also attractive. ? On Sun, Apr 13, 2025 at 5:14?AM Nauset Beach via ?<nausetbeach= [email protected]> wrote: Bill, ? I am looking at the Epoch batteries as well, and did read [possibly in Panbo] the Victron comms in that battery were a bit sketchy and speculation was it would take a while to work the bugs out.? That seems to be the major advantage over the Essentials 460, which also is a shorter height at 8.6” [but longer] vs. the 12” of the Elite.? Is also IP54 vs IP67 so not waterproof, just water resistant.? But it will not be in an open bay like on an RV or van.? That same article indicated one could get the same information using a Victron Smart Shunt with the Essentials.?? ? Also read some insurance companies either do not cover LFP, or have very specific requirements if one is making the switch, like having to use a certified ABYC electrician in addition to following all the manufacturer’s installation instructions and charging / maintenance protocols. Unfortunately, according to various online forums, my insurance company seems to be one of the one’s which does not cover LFP.? Need to confirm with them this week.?? ? Brian Escapade? S426 CT - LIS ? ? Hi all, I've been holding off on LFP battery conversion but the tariff thing is alarming so I'm considering the substantial purchase of an Epoch?12V 460Ah V2 Elite Series battery? for our 362.? Does anyone know if this particular Group D size battery fits under the starboard berth?? This battery is quite a bit taller than the Group 31s I have in there now (and I'm away from the boat and can't measure).? I realize there's more to LFP conversion than swapping the battery. 2003 S362 #261 'Souwester'
--
Allison
S426 Kingfisher
SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest
|
Allison, ? Great suggestions.? That was essentially what the underwriter I spoke to indicated: they wanted to know / see how the installation was made.? A “professional” detailed report / description of what was done, on letterhead of the installer.? A clear diagram should help the process.? He said some people had submitted handwritten notes.? ? On the downside, he also said there are no standards, to which I mentioned ABYC E-13.? ?He sort of ignored that, only later to say ABYC had not come up with standards and maybe they would in another year...? He admitted he had a mental block on electronics and was much more comfortable with physical engineering issues.? One assumes there are other underwriters who are comfortable with electronics, and hopefully one of those people gets your file.? Sort of like building inspectors; there are good ones, and ones you never want to get when they are having a bad day.? ? I seem to recall you had some not so complementary comments on Mastervolt, though not certain if that was some customer’s poor experience, and if that included their LFP batteries or other equipment?? Might be better to take that off list if you prefer. ? Thanks, Brian ?
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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Allison Lehman via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2025 11:43 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Epoch 12V 460Ah LFP battery on Sabre 362?? One more comment to add. ?There are ABYC standards for LFP. ?I suggest those of you who have LFP already, if professionally done, get drawing by your installer. ?If it is a DIY find some one to draw them for you. This way you are a step ahead of the insurance company in two ways. ?First off many think there are no standards so lets raise the premium and secondly there are some who reject it completely because they thing it isn’t safe. ?By drawing their attention to the ABYC standards not only will you educate them but you might even get (or not lose) your insurance.
Allison Lehman
Swiftsure Yachts
allison@...
Cell: 510.912.5800
Fax: 510.860.4640
On Apr 15, 2025, at 5:01?AM, Nauset Beach via groups.io <nausetbeach@...> wrote: ? I spoke with an insurance underwriter at my insurance carrier and they will cover LFP conversions, on a case by case basis, though do have some base line requirements: US battery manufacturer and “quality” [my phrasing] US installation.? They do not, as of yet, require ABYC certified installers.? He / they have seen some nightmare situations of “drop in” LFP installations with very poor general boat maintenance, the classic house wiring with wire nuts, unsupported wires, etc. on 30+ yo boats not designed / built to handle the much higher electrical loads of today. ??I mentioned that I doubted any “US” LFP battery was entirely US manufactured, importing parts to be assembled, and he was non-committal.? There also would be a premium increase due to LFP being onboard.? They are concerned with the limited track record of these batteries being installed in the marine environment, with salt exposure and near constant motion, which in their collective mind, increases the potential risks of these batteries.?? So worth a call to your insurance company.? Brian, thank you for reminding me to check with insurance on LFP conversion and for the other tips.? I need to do some more reading and checking. Dave, I hear you about single point of failure. Two lighter batteries is also attractive. On Sun, Apr 13, 2025 at 5:14?AM Nauset Beach via?<nausetbeach=[email protected]> wrote: I am looking at the Epoch batteries as well, and did read [possibly in Panbo] the Victron comms in that battery were a bit sketchy and speculation was it would take a while to work the bugs out.? That seems to be the major advantage over the Essentials 460, which also is a shorter height at 8.6” [but longer] vs. the 12” of the Elite.? Is also IP54 vs IP67 so not waterproof, just water resistant.? But it will not be in an open bay like on an RV or van.? That same article indicated one could get the same information using a Victron Smart Shunt with the Essentials.?? Also read some insurance companies either do not cover LFP, or have very specific requirements if one is making the switch, like having to use a certified ABYC electrician in addition to following all the manufacturer’s installation instructions and charging / maintenance protocols. Unfortunately, according to various online forums, my insurance company seems to be one of the one’s which does not cover LFP.? Need to confirm with them this week.?? Hi all, I've been holding off on LFP battery conversion but the tariff thing is alarming so I'm considering the substantial purchase of an Epoch?12V 460Ah V2 Elite Series battery? for our 362.? Does anyone know if this particular Group D size battery fits under the starboard berth?? This battery is quite a bit taller than the Group 31s I have in there now (and I'm away from the boat and can't measure).? I realize there's more to LFP conversion than swapping the battery. 2003 S362 #261 'Souwester'
?
--
Allison
S426 Kingfisher
SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest
|
I'm not anti Mastervolt, I just think Victron is better equipment. ?On some of the new boats we have delivered there have been several glitches right out of the box.
Allison LehmanSwiftsure Yachtsallison@...Cell: 510.912.5800Fax: 510.860.4640
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On Apr 15, 2025, at 9:26?AM, Nauset Beach via groups.io <nausetbeach@...> wrote:
Allison,? ? Great suggestions.? That was essentially what the underwriter I spoke to indicated: they wanted to know / see how the installation was made.? A “professional” detailed report / description of what was done, on letterhead of the installer.? A clear diagram should help the process.? He said some people had submitted handwritten notes.?? ? On the downside, he also said there are no standards, to which I mentioned ABYC E-13.? ?He sort of ignored that, only later to say ABYC had not come up with standards and maybe they would in another year...? He admitted he had a mental block on electronics and was much more comfortable with physical engineering issues.? One assumes there are other underwriters who are comfortable with electronics, and hopefully one of those people gets your file.? Sort of like building inspectors; there are good ones, and ones you never want to get when they are having a bad day.?? ? I seem to recall you had some not so complementary comments on Mastervolt, though not certain if that was some customer’s poor experience, and if that included their LFP batteries or other equipment?? Might be better to take that off list if you prefer.? ? Thanks, Brian ? ? One more comment to add. ?There are ABYC standards for LFP. ?I suggest those of you who have LFP already, if professionally done, get drawing by your installer. ?If it is a DIY find some one to draw them for you. This way you are a step ahead of the insurance company in two ways. ?First off many think there are no standards so lets raise the premium and secondly there are some who reject it completely because they thing it isn’t safe. ?By drawing their attention to the ABYC standards not only will you educate them but you might even get (or not lose) your insurance.
Allison Lehman
Swiftsure Yachts
allison@...
Cell: 510.912.5800
Fax: 510.860.4640
<image001.png>
? I spoke with an insurance underwriter at my insurance carrier and they will cover LFP conversions, on a case by case basis, though do have some base line requirements: US battery manufacturer and “quality” [my phrasing] US installation.? They do not, as of yet, require ABYC certified installers.? He / they have seen some nightmare situations of “drop in” LFP installations with very poor general boat maintenance, the classic house wiring with wire nuts, unsupported wires, etc. on 30+ yo boats not designed / built to handle the much higher electrical loads of today. ??I mentioned that I doubted any “US” LFP battery was entirely US manufactured, importing parts to be assembled, and he was non-committal.? There also would be a premium increase due to LFP being onboard.? They are concerned with the limited track record of these batteries being installed in the marine environment, with salt exposure and near constant motion, which in their collective mind, increases the potential risks of these batteries.?? So worth a call to your insurance company.? Brian, thank you for reminding me to check with insurance on LFP conversion and for the other tips.? I need to do some more reading and checking. Dave, I hear you about single point of failure. Two lighter batteries is also attractive. On Sun, Apr 13, 2025 at 5:14?AM Nauset Beach via ?<nausetbeach= [email protected]> wrote: I am looking at the Epoch batteries as well, and did read [possibly in Panbo] the Victron comms in that battery were a bit sketchy and speculation was it would take a while to work the bugs out.? That seems to be the major advantage over the Essentials 460, which also is a shorter height at 8.6” [but longer] vs. the 12” of the Elite.? Is also IP54 vs IP67 so not waterproof, just water resistant.? But it will not be in an open bay like on an RV or van.? That same article indicated one could get the same information using a Victron Smart Shunt with the Essentials.?? Also read some insurance companies either do not cover LFP, or have very specific requirements if one is making the switch, like having to use a certified ABYC electrician in addition to following all the manufacturer’s installation instructions and charging / maintenance protocols. Unfortunately, according to various online forums, my insurance company seems to be one of the one’s which does not cover LFP.? Need to confirm with them this week.?? Hi all, I've been holding off on LFP battery conversion but the tariff thing is alarming so I'm considering the substantial purchase of an Epoch?12V 460Ah V2 Elite Series battery? for our 362.? Does anyone know if this particular Group D size battery fits under the starboard berth?? This battery is quite a bit taller than the Group 31s I have in there now (and I'm away from the boat and can't measure).? I realize there's more to LFP conversion than swapping the battery. 2003 S362 #261 'Souwester'
?
--?
Allison
S426 Kingfisher
SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest?
--
Allison
S426 Kingfisher
SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest
|
ABYC-13 isn't much of standard -- and it theoretically applies to
all types of lithium batteries and not specifica to LFP.? Mostly
it says, "follow the manufacturer's recommendations", put in
functional BMS and follow other ABYC standards.
Our carrier, Chubb/Ace, said only, “As long as marine grade parts
are professionally installed as per ABYC standards, there are no
coverage exclusions in the policy in regards to battery
installation.”
Professional installer probably translates to ABYC certified
tech, and an ABYC certified tech is going to want to bring
everything he or she touches up to current specifications.?
Expensive, yes.? The cost of the batteries and Zeus were the
dwarfed by the labor.
On 4/15/2025 12:26 PM, Nauset Beach via
groups.io wrote:
Allison,
?
Great
suggestions.? That was essentially what the underwriter I
spoke to indicated: they wanted to know / see how the
installation was made.? A “professional” detailed report /
description of what was done, on letterhead of the
installer.? A clear diagram should help the process.? He
said some people had submitted handwritten notes.?
?
On the
downside, he also said there are no standards, to which I
mentioned ABYC E-13.? ?He sort of ignored that, only later
to say ABYC had not come up with standards and maybe they
would in another year...? He admitted he had a mental block
on electronics and was much more comfortable with physical
engineering issues.? One assumes there are other
underwriters who are comfortable with electronics, and
hopefully one of those people gets your file.? Sort of like
building inspectors; there are good ones, and ones you never
want to get when they are having a bad day.?
?
I seem to
recall you had some not so complementary comments on
Mastervolt, though not certain if that was some customer’s
poor experience, and if that included their LFP batteries or
other equipment?? Might be better to take that off list if
you prefer.
?
Thanks,
Brian
?
?
One more comment to add. ?There are ABYC
standards for LFP. ?I suggest those of you who have LFP
already, if professionally done, get drawing by your
installer. ?If it is a DIY find some one to draw them for you.
This way you are a step ahead of the insurance company in two
ways. ?First off many think there are no standards so lets
raise the premium and secondly there are some who reject it
completely because they thing it isn’t safe. ?By drawing their
attention to the ABYC standards not only will you educate them
but you might even get (or not lose) your insurance.
Allison Lehman
Swiftsure Yachts
allison@...
Cell: 510.912.5800
Fax: 510.860.4640
On Apr 15, 2025, at 5:01?AM, Nauset
Beach via groups.io <nausetbeach@...>
wrote:
?
I
spoke with an insurance underwriter at my insurance
carrier and they will cover LFP conversions, on a
case by case basis, though do have some base line
requirements: US battery manufacturer and “quality”
[my phrasing] US installation.? They do not, as of
yet, require ABYC certified installers.? He / they
have seen some nightmare situations of “drop in” LFP
installations with very poor general boat
maintenance, the classic house wiring with wire
nuts, unsupported wires, etc. on 30+ yo boats not
designed / built to handle the much higher
electrical loads of today. ??I mentioned that I
doubted any “US” LFP battery was entirely US
manufactured, importing parts to be assembled, and
he was non-committal.? There also would be a premium
increase due to LFP being onboard.? They are
concerned with the limited track record of these
batteries being installed in the marine environment,
with salt exposure and near constant motion, which
in their collective mind, increases the potential
risks of these batteries.??
So
worth a call to your insurance company.?
Brian, thank you for
reminding me to check with insurance on LFP
conversion and for the other tips.? I need to
do some more reading and checking.
Dave, I hear you about
single point of failure. Two lighter batteries
is also attractive.
On Sun, Apr 13, 2025 at
5:14?AM Nauset Beach via?<nausetbeach=[email protected]>
wrote:
I am looking at the
Epoch batteries as well, and did
read [possibly in Panbo] the Victron
comms in that battery were a bit
sketchy and speculation was it would
take a while to work the bugs out.?
That seems to be the major advantage
over the Essentials 460, which also
is a shorter height at 8.6” [but
longer] vs. the 12” of the Elite.?
Is also IP54 vs IP67 so not
waterproof, just water resistant.?
But it will not be in an open bay
like on an RV or van.? That same
article indicated one could get the
same information using a Victron
Smart Shunt with the Essentials.??
Also read some
insurance companies either do not
cover LFP, or have very specific
requirements if one is making the
switch, like having to use a
certified ABYC electrician in
addition to following all the
manufacturer’s installation
instructions and charging /
maintenance protocols.
Unfortunately, according to various
online forums, my insurance company
seems to be one of the one’s which
does not cover LFP.? Need to confirm
with them this week.??
Hi all, I've been
holding off on LFP battery
conversion but the tariff thing is
alarming so I'm considering the
substantial purchase of an Epoch?12V
460Ah V2 Elite Series battery? for
our 362.? Does anyone know if this
particular Group D size battery fits
under the starboard berth?? This
battery is quite a bit taller than
the Group 31s I have in there now
(and I'm away from the boat and
can't measure).? I realize there's
more to LFP conversion than swapping
the battery.
2003 S362 #261
'Souwester'
?
--
Allison
S426 Kingfisher
SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest
--
Jim Starkey,
AmorphousDB, LLC
|
Bill Graves
Jim Starkey