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Class D Fire Extinguisher for LFP ?

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

The new LFP batteries are on board and getting connected today, along with a MultiPlus and Orion.? Solar in the next week.? In reading the user¡¯s manual for the batteries it recommends if there were to be a fire involving the batteries to ¡°use a Class D extinguisher, sand or a dry powder extinguisher.¡±? I have multiple dry powder A/B/C extinguishers.? Out of curiosity, does anyone with LFP batteries have a Class D extinguisher on board? ??

?

A quick search seemed to indicate LFP were a Class B type due to containing liquid electrolyte while Class D extinguishers were for metallic lithium and not for LFP batteries. ?The copper extinguishing agents used in some Class D were specifically not recommended for LFP batteries.? Sodium chloride Class D extinguishers were silent on LFP¡¯s.?

?

Am trying to anticipate what issues the insurance underwriters may raise, and if by getting the proverbial ducks lined up may improve the process.?

?

Thanks,

Brian

Escapade? S426

CT / LIS
 

Hi Brian,
?
I just had my 35 year insurance survey and the subject of fire extinguishers only came up as to where they were located and whether they were ¡°in the green¡±, nothing about a specific type for Lithiums (of which I have 600Ah).?
--
Pete Waterson
¡°°ä³ó²¹°ù»å´Ç²Ô²Ô²¹²â¡±
S38-2
Oriental, NC
 

I don't have Li (yet), but I recently completed my Safety at Sea certification, complete with a swim in chilly San Francisco Bay. ?Our instructor, who manages high end racing yachts and expedition vessels, stated that only aqueous vermiculite dispersion (AVD) ?extinguishers work on Li battery fires, Apparently, "AVD .... coats the fire with vermiculite particles, cooling and isolating the fire, which prevents re-ignition and addresses thermal runaway". ? The picture she showed looks like concrete poured over the battery! ? I think they cost about $200 per my notes. ?
?
Tim

Tim Sowerby
White Rose S426?
Sausalito ?CA

?
 

Our experience as a dealer is that in the event that LiFePo4 batteries get overheated to the point of melting the battery case, they don¡¯t actually catch fire. We had an advertising van with a lithium based system that provided power for LED signs and they had some serious battery issues which were passed on to us by Victron for us to rectify. The top of the 24V battery was blackened and charred and clearly had had a serious meltdown. At no time however did this cause a fire. There are however other variants of Lithium battery that can pose a fire hazard that might need specialized extinguishers to operate them safely. Things still seem to be in a state of flux as regards proper treatment of lithium batteries from a lot of different perspectives, so it¡¯s a bit of a waiting game until regulations catch up with technology.
?
--
Pete Waterson
¡°°ä³ó²¹°ù»å´Ç²Ô²Ô²¹²â¡±
S38-2
Oriental, NC
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

There is a big difference between a ¡°normal¡± fire and thermal runaway. LFP batteries are not subject to thermal runaways, if damaged, the electrolyte in the cells can burn in a ¡°normal¡± way. In a normal fire there are 3 essential ingredients, oxygen, fuel, and heat. In thermal runaway the chemicals in the battery cells react with each other and in the process produce heat that is accelerated by heat, the generates heat which makes the reaction go faster thereby generating more heat which makes the reaction go faster and so on. Once this happens there is no way to stop the reaction, all that can be done is to contain the heat and prevent it from igniting something near buy. Designing a fire resistant space for the batteries and then flooding that space with water will contain it as well as the vermiculite extinguishers mentioned by another member which insulate the battery from combustible material. ?None of this matters for LFP batteries because they can¡¯t go into thermal runaway.

To see an example mix some epoxy on a warm day and put it in a small cup. As it reacts and cures it generates heat this causes the reaction to go faster and the epoxy start bubbling and foaming.

When I was recently surveyed, the survey wanted to make sure i had he right number of Marine rated extinguishers and they were all current, i.e., not more than 12 years older than the year embossed on the bottom of the tank.



Dave
Second Star
S362 #113
Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario

On May 6, 2025, at 4:58?PM, Nauset Beach via groups.io <nausetbeach@...> wrote:

The new LFP batteries are on board and getting connected today, along with a MultiPlus and Orion.? Solar in the next week.? In reading the user¡¯s manual for the batteries it recommends if there were to be a fire involving the batteries to ¡°use a Class D extinguisher, sand or a dry powder extinguisher.¡±? I have multiple dry powder A/B/C extinguishers.? Out of curiosity, does anyone with LFP batteries have a Class D extinguisher on board? ??
?
A quick search seemed to indicate LFP were a Class B type due to containing liquid electrolyte while Class D extinguishers were for metallic lithium and not for LFP batteries. ?The copper extinguishing agents used in some Class D were specifically not recommended for LFP batteries.? Sodium chloride Class D extinguishers were silent on LFP¡¯s.??
?
Am trying to anticipate what issues the insurance underwriters may raise, and if by getting the proverbial ducks lined up may improve the process.??
?
Thanks,
Brian
Escapade? S426
CT / LIS
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Thanks Dave, Pete and Tim.? To say this is an evolving field may be an understatement.? It seems odd the battery User Manual cites Class D extinguishers first in their list, followed by sand and dry chemical.? Possibly a ¡°CYA¡± ?legal department phrasing??? I have 6 dry chemical A/B/C extinguishers accumulated over a few years, so one might think that would be adequate.? Will check the ages; had not heard of a 12 year life.? Was that a surveyor criteria, ABYC &/or insurance company requirement? ?Thought only requirement was the gauge be in the green.? And recommended to shake them periodically to prevent caking of the chemicals.?

?

Guess my concern is some underwriter will latch on to the Class D mentioned by the battery manual, which seems superfluous if not ineffective.? Especially as there are different types of Class D extinguisher, one of which is specifically not recommended for lithium batteries.?

?

I learned first hand about epoxy exothermic reactions decades ago when mixing too much epoxy on deck when filling bolt holes prior to redrilling to better seal the deck penetrations. ?After that always had a larger contain of water available and mixed smaller quantities.?

?

Thanks,

Brian

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of David Lochner via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, May 7, 2025 9:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Class D Fire Extinguisher for LFP ?

?

There is a big difference between a ¡°normal¡± fire and thermal runaway. LFP batteries are not subject to thermal runaways, if damaged, the electrolyte in the cells can burn in a ¡°normal¡± way. In a normal fire there are 3 essential ingredients, oxygen, fuel, and heat. In thermal runaway the chemicals in the battery cells react with each other and in the process produce heat that is accelerated by heat, the generates heat which makes the reaction go faster thereby generating more heat which makes the reaction go faster and so on. Once this happens there is no way to stop the reaction, all that can be done is to contain the heat and prevent it from igniting something near buy. Designing a fire resistant space for the batteries and then flooding that space with water will contain it as well as the vermiculite extinguishers mentioned by another member which insulate the battery from combustible material. ?None of this matters for LFP batteries because they can¡¯t go into thermal runaway.

?

To see an example mix some epoxy on a warm day and put it in a small cup. As it reacts and cures it generates heat this causes the reaction to go faster and the epoxy start bubbling and foaming.

?

When I was recently surveyed, the survey wanted to make sure i had he right number of Marine rated extinguishers and they were all current, i.e., not more than 12 years older than the year embossed on the bottom of the tank.

?

?

?

Dave

Second Star

S362 #113

Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario



On May 6, 2025, at 4:58?PM, Nauset Beach via groups.io <nausetbeach@...> wrote:

?

The new LFP batteries are on board and getting connected today, along with a MultiPlus and Orion.? Solar in the next week.? In reading the user¡¯s manual for the batteries it recommends if there were to be a fire involving the batteries to ¡°use a Class D extinguisher, sand or a dry powder extinguisher.¡±? I have multiple dry powder A/B/C extinguishers.? Out of curiosity, does anyone with LFP batteries have a Class D extinguisher on board? ??

?

A quick search seemed to indicate LFP were a Class B type due to containing liquid electrolyte while Class D extinguishers were for metallic lithium and not for LFP batteries. ?The copper extinguishing agents used in some Class D were specifically not recommended for LFP batteries.? Sodium chloride Class D extinguishers were silent on LFP¡¯s.??

?

Am trying to anticipate what issues the insurance underwriters may raise, and if by getting the proverbial ducks lined up may improve the process.??

?

Thanks,

Brian

Escapade? S426

CT / LIS

?
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

The 12 years is a USCG requirement in the CFRs.


Dave
Second Star
S362 #113
Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario



On May 8, 2025, at 6:01?AM, Nauset Beach via groups.io <nausetbeach@...> wrote:

Thanks Dave, Pete and Tim.? To say this is an evolving field may be an understatement.? It seems odd the battery User Manual cites Class D extinguishers first in their list, followed by sand and dry chemical.? Possibly a ¡°CYA¡± ?legal department phrasing??? I have 6 dry chemical A/B/C extinguishers accumulated over a few years, so one might think that would be adequate.? Will check the ages; had not heard of a 12 year life.? Was that a surveyor criteria, ABYC &/or insurance company requirement? ?Thought only requirement was the gauge be in the green.? And recommended to shake them periodically to prevent caking of the chemicals.??
?
Guess my concern is some underwriter will latch on to the Class D mentioned by the battery manual, which seems superfluous if not ineffective.? Especially as there are different types of Class D extinguisher, one of which is specifically not recommended for lithium batteries.??
?
I learned first hand about epoxy exothermic reactions decades ago when mixing too much epoxy on deck when filling bolt holes prior to redrilling to better seal the deck penetrations. ?After that always had a larger contain of water available and mixed smaller quantities.??
?
Thanks,
Brian
?
From:?[email protected]?<[email protected]>?On Behalf Of?David Lochner via?
Sent:?Wednesday, May 7, 2025 9:18 PM
To:?[email protected]
Subject:?Re: [SabreSailboat] Class D Fire Extinguisher for LFP ?
?
There is a big difference between a ¡°normal¡± fire and thermal runaway. LFP batteries are not subject to thermal runaways, if damaged, the electrolyte in the cells can burn in a ¡°normal¡± way. In a normal fire there are 3 essential ingredients, oxygen, fuel, and heat. In thermal runaway the chemicals in the battery cells react with each other and in the process produce heat that is accelerated by heat, the generates heat which makes the reaction go faster thereby generating more heat which makes the reaction go faster and so on. Once this happens there is no way to stop the reaction, all that can be done is to contain the heat and prevent it from igniting something near buy. Designing a fire resistant space for the batteries and then flooding that space with water will contain it as well as the vermiculite extinguishers mentioned by another member which insulate the battery from combustible material. ?None of this matters for LFP batteries because they can¡¯t go into thermal runaway.
?
To see an example mix some epoxy on a warm day and put it in a small cup. As it reacts and cures it generates heat this causes the reaction to go faster and the epoxy start bubbling and foaming.
?
When I was recently surveyed, the survey wanted to make sure i had he right number of Marine rated extinguishers and they were all current, i.e., not more than 12 years older than the year embossed on the bottom of the tank.
?
?
?
Dave
Second Star
S362 #113
Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario


On May 6, 2025, at 4:58?PM, Nauset Beach via??<nausetbeach@...> wrote:
?
The new LFP batteries are on board and getting connected today, along with a MultiPlus and Orion.? Solar in the next week.? In reading the user¡¯s manual for the batteries it recommends if there were to be a fire involving the batteries to ¡°use a Class D extinguisher, sand or a dry powder extinguisher.¡±? I have multiple dry powder A/B/C extinguishers.? Out of curiosity, does anyone with LFP batteries have a Class D extinguisher on board? ??
?
A quick search seemed to indicate LFP were a Class B type due to containing liquid electrolyte while Class D extinguishers were for metallic lithium and not for LFP batteries. ?The copper extinguishing agents used in some Class D were specifically not recommended for LFP batteries.? Sodium chloride Class D extinguishers were silent on LFP¡¯s.??
?
Am trying to anticipate what issues the insurance underwriters may raise, and if by getting the proverbial ducks lined up may improve the process.??
?
Thanks,
Brian
Escapade? S426
CT / LIS
?


 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Good to know.? Thanks!? It has been over 20 years since I looked into the USCG requirements.? Can see some additional reading in my future. ?

?

Brian

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of David Lochner via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, May 8, 2025 6:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [SabreSailboat] Class D Fire Extinguisher for LFP ?

?

The 12 years is a USCG requirement in the CFRs.

?

?

Dave

Second Star

S362 #113

Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario

?

?



On May 8, 2025, at 6:01?AM, Nauset Beach via groups.io <nausetbeach@...> wrote:

?

Thanks Dave, Pete and Tim.? To say this is an evolving field may be an understatement.? It seems odd the battery User Manual cites Class D extinguishers first in their list, followed by sand and dry chemical.? Possibly a ¡°CYA¡± ?legal department phrasing??? I have 6 dry chemical A/B/C extinguishers accumulated over a few years, so one might think that would be adequate.? Will check the ages; had not heard of a 12 year life.? Was that a surveyor criteria, ABYC &/or insurance company requirement? ?Thought only requirement was the gauge be in the green.? And recommended to shake them periodically to prevent caking of the chemicals.??

?

Guess my concern is some underwriter will latch on to the Class D mentioned by the battery manual, which seems superfluous if not ineffective.? Especially as there are different types of Class D extinguisher, one of which is specifically not recommended for lithium batteries.??

?

I learned first hand about epoxy exothermic reactions decades ago when mixing too much epoxy on deck when filling bolt holes prior to redrilling to better seal the deck penetrations. ?After that always had a larger contain of water available and mixed smaller quantities.??

?

Thanks,

Brian

?

From:?[email protected]?<[email protected]>?On Behalf Of?David Lochner via?
Sent:?Wednesday, May 7, 2025 9:18 PM
To:?[email protected]
Subject:?Re: [SabreSailboat] Class D Fire Extinguisher for LFP ?

?

There is a big difference between a ¡°normal¡± fire and thermal runaway. LFP batteries are not subject to thermal runaways, if damaged, the electrolyte in the cells can burn in a ¡°normal¡± way. In a normal fire there are 3 essential ingredients, oxygen, fuel, and heat. In thermal runaway the chemicals in the battery cells react with each other and in the process produce heat that is accelerated by heat, the generates heat which makes the reaction go faster thereby generating more heat which makes the reaction go faster and so on. Once this happens there is no way to stop the reaction, all that can be done is to contain the heat and prevent it from igniting something near buy. Designing a fire resistant space for the batteries and then flooding that space with water will contain it as well as the vermiculite extinguishers mentioned by another member which insulate the battery from combustible material. ?None of this matters for LFP batteries because they can¡¯t go into thermal runaway.

?

To see an example mix some epoxy on a warm day and put it in a small cup. As it reacts and cures it generates heat this causes the reaction to go faster and the epoxy start bubbling and foaming.

?

When I was recently surveyed, the survey wanted to make sure i had he right number of Marine rated extinguishers and they were all current, i.e., not more than 12 years older than the year embossed on the bottom of the tank.

?

?

?

Dave

Second Star

S362 #113

Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario




On May 6, 2025, at 4:58?PM, Nauset Beach via??<nausetbeach@...> wrote:

?

The new LFP batteries are on board and getting connected today, along with a MultiPlus and Orion.? Solar in the next week.? In reading the user¡¯s manual for the batteries it recommends if there were to be a fire involving the batteries to ¡°use a Class D extinguisher, sand or a dry powder extinguisher.¡±? I have multiple dry powder A/B/C extinguishers.? Out of curiosity, does anyone with LFP batteries have a Class D extinguisher on board? ??

?

A quick search seemed to indicate LFP were a Class B type due to containing liquid electrolyte while Class D extinguishers were for metallic lithium and not for LFP batteries. ?The copper extinguishing agents used in some Class D were specifically not recommended for LFP batteries.? Sodium chloride Class D extinguishers were silent on LFP¡¯s.??

?

Am trying to anticipate what issues the insurance underwriters may raise, and if by getting the proverbial ducks lined up may improve the process.??

?

Thanks,

Brian

Escapade? S426

CT / LIS

?

?

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