Report on Newport-Bermuda race sinkings
The attached report on 2 boats sinking during rough conditions in the?2024?race is interesting reading and has useful safety lessons.? One takeaway is that rough conditions can stir up fuel tank sediment that clogs the?fuel line and shut down the engine just when it is desperately needed.? Another is to carefully inspect the upper and lower rudder bearings per the recommendations.? Both boats carried high volume dewatering pumps that were very helpful but also had issues.
-- Bill Graves
S362 #261 Souwester
Marblehead, MA
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Re: Is this typical for crazing?
Jeff,?
?
I would agree with Bill on this one; you're going to find varying degrees of this crazing. This was most predominant on the 362, 402, and 452's that were built from 1996 to 2003. By the time they launched the 386 and 426 they had transitioned to a new gelcoat and the crazing issue seemed to go away.
?
My understanding of the story, and I'm sure someone in here can do a better job of articulating this...
Many manufacturers; Viking, Cabo, J-boats, Sabre, and others were sourcing their gelcoat from Cook Composites. In the early 90's the EPA issued new regulations which led to Cook Composites removing mercury from their gelcoat. Mercury was the ingredient that gave gelcoat its elasticity characteristics. Removing it meant that as the boat changed size and shape (microscopically) in different climates the gelcoat wouldn't match those changes and thus, would crack. The crazing issues started to present themselves in the early late 90's early 2000's and owners started to complain and file warranty claims. Many of those manufacturers went back to Cook Composites and wouldn't you know it, they went out of business by 2005. I know of one 402 that was totally re-decked by Sabre, and perhaps there are others. That boat was on the market a few years ago with a new awlgrip paintjob and new shiny decks, named 'Egret'.?
?
As for my experience with the situation, my wife and I looked at 5 - 402's in our search, and since buying one have been on 3 more. One of them was awful, and needed to see a grinding wheel and paint booth, 3-4 of them were in rough shape, but if you squinted your eyes, two of them were not bad at all, and one was exemplary. Polish and wax helps hide it. By no means does it fix it, but it puts some make up on the pimples.??
?
Long winded answer - but I hope this helps.?
?
Have fun, even it's just window shopping. :)?
?
Jordan
S402-047
formerly S36-087
?
Lake Michigan
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Re: S362 engine mount replacement (and SIgmadrive flange)
In addition to replacing the engine mounts I used Scott Schucher's very nice puller to remove the prop shaft flange and install a new PSS Pro seal, and I replaced the fixed flange with a Sigmadrive coupling that uses CV joints to permit a few degree misalignment between the tranny flange and the prop shaft.? I did carefully align the new coupling, but all this work was done out of the water.? The alignment can change when launched and also due to rig tension, and likely due to sea state at times.? Between the new engine mounts and the Sigmadrive the engine vibration at rest and underway is significantly reduced.
On Fri, May 23, 2025 at 9:42?AM Bill Graves < elfowl77@...> wrote: I'm following up on a couple of threads.? First regarding the engine mounts I followed Eric's path and bought the Bushings Inc DF-235-M3.? They custom built them in 2 days and charged $92 ea.? My W35D weighs 386 lbs which is lighter than these mounts are spec'd for.? However ALL mounts that I could find with 5" centers are for heavier engines.? It seems Sabre should have used 4" centers but didn't.? The reason I was replacing the old mounts was a suspected broken mount, which turned out not to be broken.? However all 4 old mounts were rock hard with no compliance at all - I assume the rubber became brittle with age.? The new mounts are much more flexible and initial running shows much reduced vibration in contrast to Eric's experience.? The symptom?that I had an engine mount problem was odd; last summer one of the?bolts that mounts the belt-driven fridge compressor to the engine sheared.? I replaced it figuring it sheared from 20 years of vibration, but the new one also sheared in a couple of weeks. I believe the rock hard mounts caused excessive vibration that led to this.? At idle the engine is now still to my eye.? I used the deflated basketball trick to raise the engine off each mount 1 at a time which worked great.
-- Bill Graves
S362 #261 Souwester
Marblehead, MA
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Re: Is this typical for crazing?
My 2001 S452 has mild/medium crazing in the cockpit and deck gelcoat (=all over). But not on the non-skid. A good, deep scrub and wash and then waxing makes it 'go away'. Well at least less visible. It is only cosmetic, and I have had no issues regarding leaks or structural.?
?
Jorgen Naess
2001 Sabre 452, VENTO
Safe Harbor, Greenport, NY
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Re: S362 engine mount replacement
I'm following up on a couple of threads.? First regarding the engine mounts I followed Eric's path and bought the Bushings Inc DF-235-M3.? They custom built them in 2 days and charged $92 ea.? My W35D weighs 386 lbs which is lighter than these mounts are spec'd for.? However ALL mounts that I could find with 5" centers are for heavier engines.? It seems Sabre should have used 4" centers but didn't.? The reason I was replacing the old mounts was a suspected broken mount, which turned out not to be broken.? However all 4 old mounts were rock hard with no compliance at all - I assume the rubber became brittle with age.? The new mounts are much more flexible and initial running shows much reduced vibration in contrast to Eric's experience.? The symptom?that I had an engine mount problem was odd; last summer one of the?bolts that mounts the belt-driven fridge compressor to the engine sheared.? I replaced it figuring it sheared from 20 years of vibration, but the new one also sheared in a couple of weeks. I believe the rock hard mounts caused excessive vibration that led to this.? At idle the engine is now still to my eye.? I used the deflated basketball trick to raise the engine off each mount 1 at a time which worked great.
On Mon, Mar 24, 2025 at 9:33?AM Bill Graves < elfowl77@...> wrote: Eric, thanks very much for forwarding that useful?thread on engine mounts for the 362.? It seems to answer Tim's question that the mounts were originally on 5" centers.? Interesting that my mounts have a 1/4" thick plate under them (see pics) not shown on your boat,?probably to spread the load but maybe covering other?holes.? I haven't lifted the engine yet to see if there are additional holes.? I'll think hard about drilling for 4" centers (I already bought 4 of the Dual-flex 2505-2 mounts before measuring.)? One concern is that the mount bolts are not centered in the existing mounts and there's no lateral adjustment on the 2505-2s.? You can see that in the pics below as well as the black rubber dust on the port forward mount that I think is broken.
I'm doing a similar exercise to you where I'm replacing the PSS seal and installing a Sigma drive coupling at the same time.? Now that I've detached the shaft flange from the transmission I see that the shaft has ample play within the shaft log, maybe 1/2" or more.? Reading up on aligning shaft flange to transmission flange they call for .001" variation in clearance across the flange faces.? How on earth do people do that when the thing wobbles around so much?? The Sigma drive alleviates that tight requirement.??
It was also news to me that the shaft alignment changes over time due to rig tension and boat shape changes.? How many people regularly check their shaft alignment? Bill Graves 2003 S362 #261 'Souwester' Marblehead, MA
Hi Bill, ? See below.? Bushings Inc has a 5¡± mount that is not listed on their web site.? Despite lots of suggestions from this group, I could not find reasonably priced 5 inch mounts.? If I were to do it again, I would redrill/tap for the 4¡± center mounts or pay the extortion to Westerbeast¡
I used a chain hoist and 4 x 4 over the companion way to lift the engine.? With the engine lifted and moved forward I was able to pull the shaft (with prop removed) without dropping the rudder.
Eric
Begin forwarded message:
From: Eric Wagner < ericswag@...> Date: January 5, 2025 at 11:31:01?AM EST To: davelochner@...Subject: Westerbeke Engine mounts Fwd: Website inquiry from Eric Wagner
?Hi Dave,
I saw from the email you are planning to replace the engine mounts on your 362.? I went down that road last spring: new mounts, coupler, shaft, shaft seal, cutlass.? I had a hard time justifying the cost of direct mount replacements ($408.00 each) from Westerbeke and settled on Bushings Inc. mounts.? See emails below.? FWIW, I do not recommend this path. In retrospect I should have retapped for 4 inch centers and gone with the lighter mounts. A friend with S36 and a 4 cylinder Westerbeke went that route and the result is amazingly smooth.? The larger DF 235-M3 mounts I used (photo below taken before alignment) do solve my original problem (failed mount leading to too much engine movement leading to a crack in my water lift muffler neck!!).? However, they do transfer a lot more vibration to the hull.? We aligned everything to 0.004¡±. ? Sadly, however, there is significant vibration, even in neutral.? I suspect the real problem is the inherent ¡°roughness¡± of a three cylinder diesel.? Underway, there are some ¡°smooth¡± spots around 2700 rpm, so we are living with the solution, but overall, I am not happy with it.
Hopefully, you can use 4¡± center mounts.? If you do need 5 inch center mounts and find a better replacement, I¡¯d ?appreciate hearing what worked, as I would swap out what I have now.?
THANKS for all of your excellent contributions to the Sabre group!
Eric Wagner S362 Nirvana # 248 Point Pleasant NJ  Begin forwarded message: From: Kenneth Maust < kenny@...> Date: February 12, 2024 at 8:17:39?AM EST To: Eric Wagner < ericswag@...> Subject: Website inquiry from Eric Wagner
? Hi Eric,
I would think sleeving the 3/8¡± bolt would work.? Another option would be to fill the previous holes with epoxy of some kind and redrill, but if you¡¯re going to go to that trouble, I¡¯d redrill on 4¡± centers and use the DF-2205-2 that we recommend.
? Please give us a call at 248-650-0603 if you¡¯d like to go ahead with an order. ? Thanks, ? Kenny Maust Bushings Inc. Ph: 248-650-0603 Fax: 248-650-0606
? From: Eric Wagner <ericswag@...>
Sent: Friday, February 9, 2024 4:01 PM
To: Kenneth Maust <kenny@...>
Subject: Re: Website inquiry from Eric Wagner ? Hi Kenny, Thank you for your prompt and informative reply.? I went to the boat today and it looks like the DF 235-M3 will fit.? BTW I told you it¡¯s a Westerbeke 34c, it¡¯s actually a 35C but no matter.? The only remaining issue is that my Westerbeke mounts are secured with 3/8¡± bolts and the 235-M3 has 1/2 inch holes.? I¡¯m guessing the solution would be to sleeve the 3/8¡± bolt? In any event, how do I order 4 of the 235-M3¡¯s? Eric
On Feb 8, 2024, at 3:24?PM, Kenneth Maust <kenny@...> wrote:
? Hi Eric, ? Thanks for the inquiry.? We have a softer mount within the DF-236-M3 series that is not listed on our website.? This would be the DF-235-M3.? This mount is still a bit overkill for the Westerbeke 34C as it¡¯s designed for diesel engines between 700-1100#, but this is our softest mount with 5¡± hole centers.? This mount is not listed on the DF-236-M3 spec sheet (attached), but it would be identical dimensionally to the other mounts within this series. ? Our normal recommendation for the 34C would be the DF-2205-2, but that has 4¡± hole centers. ? It¡¯s hard to say how the DF-235-M3 will isolate without actually putting the engine on the mounts and running it.? I can say that the DF-2205-2 and the DF-235-M3 both use the same 50 durometer nitrile rubber material, there is just more rubber on the DF-235-M3.? So, I would expect the DF-235-M3 to isolate the engine fairly well. ? If you¡¯d like to try the DF-235-M3, you would need to purchase it directly from us, as this is not a common mount and our distributors do not carry it.? Your cost for 4 pieces would be $97.95 each.? Lead time is 2-3 days. ? Please let me know if you have any questions. ? Thanks, ? Kenny Maust Bushings Inc. Ph: 248-650-0603 Fax: 248-650-0606
? From: Bushings Inc <admin@...>
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2024 11:16 AM
To: sales@...
Subject: Website inquiry from Eric Wagner ? Hi Bushings Inc,
I am replacing the mounts on my 3 cylinder Westerbeke 34C installed in a 36 foot sailboat. The original mounts are on 5 inch spacings (Westerbeke part 040510). It looks like your 236-M3 might fit, but is rated for heavier engines. My Westerbeke and trans weigh in at 386 pounds. Can I use the 236 M3? If so will it isolate properly? If not, can you recommend another mount? Thanks! -Eric Wagner ( ericswag@... )
--
Eric Wagner
2002 S362 #248 Nirvana
-- Bill Graves
S362 #261 Souwester
Marblehead, MA
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Re: Is this typical for crazing?
My 95 362 hull 136 has a little crazing towards the stern but none anywhere else.
Scott Johnson
Socarrat
Gig Harbor, WA
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Re: Is this typical for crazing?
When I was shopping for a 362 several years ago I saw a wide variety of crazing conditions (none of these 1997-2003 boats were free of it) and I eventually bought one with mild crazing.? As many have written it is usually primarily an esthetic issue with no apparent effect on water penetration.
On Fri, May 23, 2025 at 6:57?AM Mitchell Sogin via <mitchellsogin= [email protected]> wrote: My 2012 426 has no hint of crazing? Mitchell Sogin IPhone 5085661468 On May 23, 2025, at 6:45?AM, David Short, SV One Timer, 1997 362, Mt Desert, ME via <dhs.short=[email protected]> wrote:
?Whoa. That is way worse than my 1997 hull #189.? On May 22, 2025, at 10:27?PM, Jeff Bartlett via <Jhbartlett=[email protected]> wrote:
? No judgement please on 3 inch-itis (fore cabin headroom and berth length), but having a few extra hours last weekend, I went to check out a mid-1990's 362.? This is the first 362 I've been aboard since I saw one at a boat show in 1995.
?
I've heard that there was/is a crazing issue with many Sabres of that vintage due to a gelcoat situation, but I was not expecting what I found.? The photo is of one section of the coachroof, but this is repeated similarly all around the boat.
?
Is this typical of what I should expect to find when looking at boats of this generation?? Is it worse than typical? Better? ?
?
--
Jeff B
1988 Sabre 34-2, 347
S/V Northwood
Deale, MD
-- Dave Short SV One Timer 1997 S362 Mt Desert, ME
-- Bill Graves
S362 #261 Souwester
Marblehead, MA
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Re: S362 questions on water tanks and mast j-hook
Same here for my 2003 362 (38 gal port, 49 fwd).? From previous emails it sounds like all 362s have the same bow tanks but the later ones gained 10 gal bigger port water tanks.
I looked at my owner¡¯s manual the other day and ran across the drawing of the water system. The port tank is listed to have 38 gallons and the bow is 49 gallons.
?
Dave
S362 #229
-- Bill Graves S362 #261 'Souwester' Marblehead, MA
-- Bill Graves
S362 #261 Souwester
Marblehead, MA
?
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Re: S362 questions on water tanks and mast j-hook
I looked at my owner¡¯s manual the other day and ran across the drawing of the water system. The port tank is listed to have 38 gallons and the bow is 49 gallons.
?
Dave
S362 #229
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Re: Is this typical for crazing?
Jeff, I have only seen one Sabre 362 with this much crazing. ?My 362 does not have a lot of crazing. ?Glenn at Sabre told me that it should not cause water intrusion. ?I did use crack sealer on my crazing just to be sure. ?Sabre did do repairs on boats that had crazing at one time but not now. ?
Regards,
David Jaworski? S362 Windwalker Severna Park, MD
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On May 22, 2025, at 10:28?PM, Jeff Bartlett via groups.io <Jhbartlett@...> wrote:
? No judgement please on 3 inch-itis (fore cabin headroom and berth length), but having a few extra hours last weekend, I went to check out a mid-1990's 362. ?This is the first 362 I've been aboard since I saw one at a boat show in 1995.
?
I've heard that there was/is a crazing issue with many Sabres of that vintage due to a gelcoat situation, but I was not expecting what I found. ?The photo is of one section of the coachroof, but this is repeated similarly all around the boat.
?
Is this typical of what I should expect to find when looking at boats of this generation? ?Is it worse than typical? Better? ?
?
--
Jeff B
1988 Sabre 34-2, 347
S/V Northwood
Deale, MD
-- David JAworski
Sabre 362
Windwalker
Severna Park, MD
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Re: Is this typical for crazing?
My 2012 426 has no hint of crazing? Mitchell Sogin IPhone 5085661468
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On May 23, 2025, at 6:45?AM, David Short, SV One Timer, 1997 362, Mt Desert, ME via groups.io <dhs.short@...> wrote:
? Whoa. That is way worse than my 1997 hull #189.? On May 22, 2025, at 10:27?PM, Jeff Bartlett via groups.io <Jhbartlett@...> wrote:
? No judgement please on 3 inch-itis (fore cabin headroom and berth length), but having a few extra hours last weekend, I went to check out a mid-1990's 362. ?This is the first 362 I've been aboard since I saw one at a boat show in 1995.
?
I've heard that there was/is a crazing issue with many Sabres of that vintage due to a gelcoat situation, but I was not expecting what I found. ?The photo is of one section of the coachroof, but this is repeated similarly all around the boat.
?
Is this typical of what I should expect to find when looking at boats of this generation? ?Is it worse than typical? Better? ?
?
--
Jeff B
1988 Sabre 34-2, 347
S/V Northwood
Deale, MD
-- Dave Short SV One Timer 1997 S362 Mt Desert, ME
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Re: Is this typical for crazing?
Whoa. That is way worse than my 1997 hull #189.?
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On May 22, 2025, at 10:27?PM, Jeff Bartlett via groups.io <Jhbartlett@...> wrote:
? No judgement please on 3 inch-itis (fore cabin headroom and berth length), but having a few extra hours last weekend, I went to check out a mid-1990's 362. ?This is the first 362 I've been aboard since I saw one at a boat show in 1995.
?
I've heard that there was/is a crazing issue with many Sabres of that vintage due to a gelcoat situation, but I was not expecting what I found. ?The photo is of one section of the coachroof, but this is repeated similarly all around the boat.
?
Is this typical of what I should expect to find when looking at boats of this generation? ?Is it worse than typical? Better? ?
?
--
Jeff B
1988 Sabre 34-2, 347
S/V Northwood
Deale, MD
--
Dave Short
SV One Timer 1997 S362
Mt Desert, ME
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Re: Is this typical for crazing?
I looked at 2 402¡¯s this past weekend. The older one had a little crazing, but I would consider acceptable for a nearly 30 year old boat. The broker said the newer one had the gel coat repaired/redone at 1 year old under warranty, but the work was done locally( not by Sabre). That boat had no crazing issues. I have seen others from that era that looked like the gel coat was going to come off in giant flakes. Does anyone know what model year Sabre finally got the crazing under control? I can¡¯t imagine buyers of their million dollar motor yachts would tolerate this. Bill
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On May 23, 2025, at 12:43?AM, Bill Akins via groups.io <bakins8700@...> wrote:
? Yes. ? I looked at 6 Sabres in the last year between 1988 and 2004. ?362, 38, and 386.
the 1988 had very little crazing as does my 1982. ? All of the boats that I saw made between 1993 and 2004 regardless of model had severe crazing like your photo. ?
Bill Akins
S30
Chicago
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Re: Is this typical for crazing?
My 38MKII has crazing but not to this extent.
?
Tim R
38MKII in refit
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Re: Is this typical for crazing?
Yes. ? I looked at 6 Sabres in the last year between 1988 and 2004. ?362, 38, and 386.
the 1988 had very little crazing as does my 1982. ? All of the boats that I saw made between 1993 and 2004 regardless of model had severe crazing like your photo. ?
Bill Akins
S30
Chicago
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Is this typical for crazing?
No judgement please on 3 inch-itis (fore cabin headroom and berth length), but having a few extra hours last weekend, I went to check out a mid-1990's 362. ?This is the first 362 I've been aboard since I saw one at a boat show in 1995.
?
I've heard that there was/is a crazing issue with many Sabres of that vintage due to a gelcoat situation, but I was not expecting what I found. ?The photo is of one section of the coachroof, but this is repeated similarly all around the boat.
?
Is this typical of what I should expect to find when looking at boats of this generation? ?Is it worse than typical? Better? ?
?
--
Jeff B
1988 Sabre 34-2, 347
S/V Northwood
Deale, MD
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Re: S362 questions on water tanks and mast j-hook
I too would be proud of removing a plug like that. ?It is someone akin to a boat exorcism!
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On May 22, 2025, at 1:24?PM, David Lochner via groups.io <davelochner@...> wrote:
Allison,
Our tanks will drain almost bone dry. There is maybe a quart or two left in the tank when we can no longer draw water out.
We use the same kind of reinforced PVC hose on the end of the shut off valve. Found a ?¡± Barb x Hose thread connector. It¡¯s about 6 inches long.
When Second Star was built someone had several not so brilliant ideas about the hoses and tanks. On the settee water tank there was a ?¡± BST to ?¡± FNPT adapter with a ?¡± black iron plug closing up a hole that was then hidden next to the bulkhead. After after 20 or so years rust and galvanic action took its tool and water was seeping out of the tank and running into the bilge seeing the area under the sink nice and damp. Brilliant!?
And then on the fill hose for the forward water tank a fitting was sealed with electrical tape and of course is located where no one can easily see it. A few weeks ago, I was fueling and Susan was filling the water tank when the bilge pump came on and ran for several minutes I checked the tank gauge and it was still empty even though we had been filling for about 5 minutes. The bilge got a nice rinse.
BTW there is a new restaurant in Annapolis, soft opening is this week. We stopped for drinks and they make and they make a fantastic rum old fashioned. ?The Rumhouse is on 6th street in Eastport. Carribben themed food. Executive Chef is from Trinidad. Not sure we¡¯ll eat there as it is a little more upscale (expensive) than we usually do.
The offending plug.
<A56494CF-5BE6-48A9-BED4-1CA8952845CC_1_201_a.jpeg>
Dave Second Star S362 #113 Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario
Allison LehmanSwiftsure Yachtsallison@...Cell: 510.912.5800Fax: 510.860.4640<PastedGraphic-1.tiff> On May 22, 2025, at 11:52?AM, David Lochner via groups.io <davelochner@...> wrote:
I had the same questions about tank size, so I bought a??like this one from Amazon. The V-Berth tank was 45 gallons, the starboard settee tank was 35 gallons and the hot water heater was 6 gallons for a total of 86 gallons. The meter not only answered my question, it now makes it easier to fill the tank, no more overfilling and with the flow meter we can better estimate the time it takes to fill the tank. There is a short piece of ?¡± hose attached to the shut off valve that fits in to the in the deck fill.
<1A51E45C-044E-4E60-8C68-BDF26BC83BBE_1_105_c.jpeg>
Dave Second Star S362 #113 Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario On May 22, 2025, at 2:25?PM, Capt. A Ground via groups.io <eddymayhem@...> wrote:
Hi, Off the top of my head, I think my 362 carries about 78 gallons of water.? 29 gal. in the port tank, under settee.? 49 gal.? under the fwd berth.? Mine is a 1998.? ?My owners manual did not list capacities.
Yes, I have a j-hook on the mast.
Cheers, Ted Mendham Blue Pearl II Quahog Bay, ME
On Thu, May 22, 2025 at 9:58?AM Doug Snell via ??<douglasbriansnell= [email protected]> wrote: Hello all, ? I looked for these answers, but was unable to find them in the archives.?? ? 1) what are the volumes of the two water tanks in a S362? ? 2) does everyone use a j-hook on their mast?? My rigger just called to tell me mine is missing, yet I do not believe I ever had one from the time of purchase in 2021.? Any thoughts on sailing with and without a j-hook?? Any photos would be appriciated. ? Best Regards, Doug Snell S362 #137 "OZ" South Portland Maine
--
Allison
S426 Kingfisher
SF Bay/Pacifc Northwest
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Re: S362 questions on water tanks and mast j-hook
I have the Gobius C on the holding tank and linked to my N2K network. I¡¯ve been pleased with it. Seems pretty accurate and doesn¡¯t require drilling holes into the top of the tank. Range is fine on BT, I can get it on the app anywhere on the boat.
Dave Second Star S362 #113 Fair Haven, NY/Lake Ontario
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On May 22, 2025, at 4:41?PM, Howard Musk, Belladrum, Sabre 362 via groups.io <hrmusk@...> wrote:
Just this past weekend I put together a similar set up in anticipation of calibrating tanks for tank monitors.
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Bill Graves
Jordan
Jorgen Naess
David Short, SV One Timer, 1997 362, Mt Desert, ME
Bill D
Tim Rivard
Bill Akins