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2200 schematic found!
HEY! It's tax time, and I'm digging through stuff, and what do I find?
a 2200 Schematic sent to me about 3 years ago in the mail. One page is the Amplifier (one channel shown only), the next page is the LED Meters, and the 3rd page is the power supply config. WOW! Someone even marked it up with the replacement semiconductors. My question... Is the 2200 schematic similar to the 2201 Amp I own? What's the differences if any (besides cosmetics). -=Jeff Gross=- 450 W. Byberry Rd. #T22 Philadelphia, PA 19116 (215) 464-6077 [voice] (520) 752-4371 [E-fax] |
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Re: 8000 Tuner
sstinc:"First sstinc:Last"
Dear JGross,
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To be sure, you are virtually correct in your suspicions. May I recommend that you go back into the archives of Audio magazine circa early 80's to a two or three part article by the brilliant Dr. Grenier (I sure hope I spelled his name right) from the University of Wisconsin (I believe this is the correct univ.) and read this treatise on "wire". He absolutely nails it and nobody paid any attention. What an industry we are in. If you want to know how fast electrons travel down a wire, try holding a match under the palm of your hand and see how long it takes before you feel the pain. Need I say more? James Bongiorno jgross@... wrote: From: jgross@... |
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Re: 8000 Tuner
Interesting...you mention about the use of the fan,
whenever I used an Amp "on the road" I always strap a fan to it somehow (sae or not). I especially liked the 2201 in small club settings.. Nice warm sound, no hiss, dependable. Also...this is directed to James... Please settle this argument once and for all...about "Monster Cable". My feeling is any decent stranded heavy guage wire works great for running speakers. I recommend a 12Guage Zip Cord available at Home Depo. Knowing what I know about how electrons travel through wire, I cannot see what advantage there is using Monster Cable. There's lots of bullshit theory I've heard over the years about this, especially one guy at Home Depo insisting that the brown covered wire wouldn't work as well as the clear covered wire (even thought it was exactly the same conductor inside). In my opinion, the only important factors in selecting speaker wire is: 1- VA Rating vs. Guage 2- covering (where environment, exposure to moisture and heat, decoritive considerations.) 3- Sheilding (If you live near a radio station or broadcasting tower, you might need to run sheilded twisted pair to your speakers). That's about all I have on that. -=Jeff Gross=- On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 sstinc wrote: |
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Re: 8000 Tuner
sstinc:"First sstinc:Last"
Dear Mark,
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I will try to add some insight to the evolutionary nature of things. If you will remember, I invented the "Record Rack", which is what Dynaco people called the 400 heat sink array however, I don't believe that anyone was dumb enough to put records in there. The priciple confused alot of people at first because no one could understand how it could work because there were NO holes in the bottom of the hear sink assembly. As a matter of fact this heat sink assembly was incredibly efficient although not cheap. Anyone who wishes to know the theory behind it should contact me. Needless to say, I designed the XXXIB, the IIIC &CM, and the IVD & DM with the same functional intention. The efficiency of the heat sink assembly however, never approached what I got with the Dynaco assembly due to the following reasons. The Dynaco had true extruded fins mounted on an extruded double T platform. The SAE units used a harder metal that was fabricated into "U" shapes in the SAE metalshop. This would have been acceptable, however, Morris insisted on "time- saving" (achieving the brushed finish before anodizing) in order to make the unit look nice. Unfortunately this left thousands of little ridges between the layers which reduced the efficiency. This was however, NOT A PROBLEM FOR HOME USE. In our testing at the time, we were never able to overheat the amplifier on normal music signals and indeed, thousands of these units were made and had NO thermal problems. When Morris wanted to support the pro world, where the dynamic range is severely restricted and compressed, this made the amplfiers run alot hotter hence the need for the fan. Othere than that, the units were absolutely identical. I want to stress here that the Dynaco design was massive overkill whereas the SAE units were more practical. The only thing that I would recommend at this time which is some 25 to 27 years later, is that anyone with one of these units should have the amp disassembled by a competent technical person who can completely remove the old grease that has long dried out, and replacing with new thernal grease. This would probably add significantly to the life of the unit. I will repeat here that in my not so humble opinion, these three amplifiers were the best amps (sonically as well as measuring) that SAE ever produced. The 2400 was virtually a carbon copy of my Ampzilla circuit value for value which says volumes about the original which was in itself almost a carbon copy of the SAE circuits. James Bongiorno gurriesm wrote: From: gurriesm <gurriesm@...> |
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Re: Join SAE TALK?
gurriesm
Gish, Jeffrey S wrote:
Hello Mark,I truly hope you do and help spread the word. I collect vintage solid-state audio and do advanced repair workI to am on the EE side of SAE and have modified, repair, and upgraded various pieces of SAE equipment. I own about 11 pieces I think at last count. All but one are being used. The last one has been declared a parts box (D102 CD player). I have a few pieces of SAE and am gaining an appreciation forThere is also a Timothy.Shidu@... that appears to be a big SAE collector. I have tried to contact him with a invitation too. But his email address bounces back. Luther is a SAE_TALK member and is helping me promote this list too. He has updated his website. Last summer at an outdoor swap meet I bought an SAE 2100 preamp. The topAwesome. Luther also has some access to metal fabrication and is planning on reproducing the blank Rack Mount space panel that had the SAE logo on them. You will fit in really well in the talk list for a lot of us are into preservation efforts of SAE equipment. We got James Bongiorno, the chief SAE design engineer who is on the list, to make available all his documentation on SAE. He has info and tips on amplifier upgrades too. Luther has volunteered to scan them and come out with a new SAE website that will allow you to download all the files. At least that is the current plan. Best Regards, Mark Gurries ---------------------------------------------------------- Battery Charging and Power Systems Application Engineer Linear Technology,1630 McCarthy Blvd, Milpitas, CA, 95035 WRK(408) 954-8400 x3864 Email: gurriesm@... FAX(408) 428-9413 WebSite: ---------------------------------------------------------- Work & Hobby Related Website Info: Smart Battery Charging Systems: Model Railroad Club: ---------------------------------------------------------- |
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Re: 8000 Tuner
gurriesm
akble@... wrote:
From: akble@...Hello Andy, James Bongiorno, who is the key SAE designer engineer would be the best person to answer this. But I will give you what I believe to be true, but welcome corrections. It is my understanding that the tuners are the same except for evolutionary circuit improvement and changes. The 3200 is a completely different tuner that I believe was addressing the lower cost needs of the home consumer since the 8000 was becoming to expensive for main stream sales. Anyway, the sales literature does indicate a small semiconductor circuit change between the MkVIII and the 8000. The 8000 had one less transistor in the RF front end yet the specifications between the models remained the same. However, sales literature sometimes have mistakes in details like this. So I cannot be sure about the circuit changes at all. Anyway, for all practical purposes they are interchangeable products. The model number change is nothing more then being part of the marketing movement to make the SAE product line sound more Pro. Here are some of my personal thoughts based on limited available factual data and some conjecture on my part. Historically the difference between the Mk xxxx (Ex: Mk VIII) line and the xx00 or "thousand" (Ex: 8000) line was the marketing. The Mk product is supposed to me the original and older consumer home line and typically lacked the rack mounting option and came in two tone or solid clear/gold alodyne brushed aluminum surface (light color). The later "Thousand" line was the pro version with rack mounting and came only in dark black brushed aluminum anodize color. Internally the models are identical for all practical purposes and were built on the same production line. But from a sales point of view, the pro version took over the product line since, I believe, it was viewed as being more of a high end and robust product. But there clearly there were transitional models that become pro in terms of color and rack mounting but yet retained the older Mkxxx number. For instance, I own a black rack mount MkXXX1B amp. The original early MkXXX1B production version was clear alodyne with no rack mount option. You can see the evolutionary changes by looking at the difference in the yearly full line SAE catalogs. For the transitional high power Mkxxx amplifier models, the pro version came with a cooling fan installed whereas it was only an option for the home line. Specifically I am refereing to the MkIIIC and MkIIICM 200W/Channel amps. James, any comments here? Best Regards, Mark Gurries ---------------------------------------------------------- Battery Charging and Power Systems Application Engineer Linear Technology,1630 McCarthy Blvd, Milpitas, CA, 95035 WRK(408) 954-8400 x3864 Email: gurriesm@... FAX(408) 428-9413 WebSite: ---------------------------------------------------------- Work & Hobby Related Website Info: Smart Battery Charging Systems: Model Railroad Club: ---------------------------------------------------------- |
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Re: SAE Owner's Showcase
sstinc:"First sstinc:Last"
Dear Mark,
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Actually the 2200 was finished after I left SAE and I have susequently upgraded a few of them. To my knowledge there is no reason why this unit was rated that way. It easily puts out significantly more power into 4 ohms. Anyway, almost all of the SAE amps can have the limiters either modified or removed but, as I stated previously, do this at your own risk. The only drawback would be the inadvertant and/or unintentional short at the output which probably would wipe out the output devices. This is why, on my first big SUMO amps, the "Power" and the "Half-Power", I put a true input output realtime frequency comparator-discriminator which had no limiters of any kind in the signal path. It was impossible to blow up the amp. Yet, it would drive any load conceivable to mankind. James Bongiorno Mark Gurries wrote: From: Mark Gurries <gurriesm@...> |
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8000 Tuner
Hi guys- Guess i should be politically correct and ask in if any ladies in
group rather than to assume not. Anyway own a number of the the original series Mark items in light colored front panels. Last week noticed in local paper add for SAE equipment for sale- Called and he had 2400L, 2800, Mk1 and 8000 tuner. Original owner with boxes and manuals. Picked up them up along with his 901's real right. The only item in group I am a little short of info and knowledge is the 8000. Is it primairly a MK VIII in rack mount front? or closer to to 3200? When was it built? Any feedback will be appreciated. Thanks Andy _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit |
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Re: SAE Owner's Showcase
Mark Gurries
Wardsweb wrote:
From: "Wardsweb" <wardsweb@...>Hi James, Which SAE amps you would consider fall into this category of capability or stated another way, which amps would you NOT recommend. Also, the SAE 2200 was rated for 100W into 8 and 4 ohms. Why is the power rating for 4 ohms the same as the 8 ohms? I would think the 4 ohm rating would be around 150Watts. Best Regards, Mark Gurries (replying from home) ---------------------------------------------------------- Battery Charging and Power Systems Application Engineer Linear Technology,1630 McCarthy Blvd, Milpitas, CA, 95035 WRK(408) 954-8400 x3864 Email: gurriesm@... FAX(408) 428-9413 WebSite: ---------------------------------------------------------- Work & Hobby Related Website Info: Smart Battery Charging Systems: Model Railroad Club: ---------------------------------------------------------- |
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Re: SAE Owner's Showcase
sstinc:"First sstinc:Last"
Dear Luther,
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The mod to alter or remove protection devices remains a catch-22 situation. In other words, MOST amps do not have enough output devices or enough heat sink area to absorb the extra dissipation of the output devices hence, the need for protection circuits. The situation will have to be assessed on an individual basis. It's really very simple: either there are enough devices and heat sink area to handle a +J90 to -J90 load or there isn't. Of course this also depends upon the kind of music one listens to and how loud one listens as well as what kind of speakers one has. Even though electrostatics are generally more difficult to drive, they also have some limitations in the area of voltage limitations, especially at low frequencies where severe arcing can occur. For example, the old original Quad electrostatics could not stand more than 25 volts RMS which is around 70 watts. Any more would surely wipe them out. The newer ELS-63's on the other hand could be driven by a 200 watt amp but since the design ended up being constantly pseudo-resonated over the frequency band, the speakers were relatively easy to drive. Therefore, anyone wishing to change the protection circuits in an amplifier MUST consider all of the ramifications before attempting any alterations. James Bongiorno Wardsweb wrote: From: "Wardsweb" <wardsweb@...> |
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Re: SAE Owner's Showcase
Wardsweb
JB - thanks for the insight. As far as type, will this work with the later Computer Direct-Line? The only other amp I have is a 3100, but mainly I use A501 and A502's. I would definitly look into this, if it would work for an A1001.
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Luther ----- Original Message -----
From: sstinc: First sstinc:Last To: SAE_Talk@... Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2000 1:26 AM Subject: Re: [SAE_Talk] SAE Owner's Showcase Dear Luther, Depending on what SAE amps you have, they certainly can be adjusted to drive electrostatics. When I worked there, Morris was OVERLY concerned about protection circuits mainly because he didn't at that time understand the true nature of VA loadlines. Most engineers STILL don't understand the situation. A properly designed amplifier should be perfectly capable of driving any rated VA into a load in ALL FOUR QUADRANTS. However, this ends up being a true enigma because in order to protect against a true short circuit, volt-amp limiting must be used. You can modify or remove the limiters with no adverse effects AS LONG as you don't short the outputs. 2 ohm reactive loads should not be a problem assuming that the music you listen to has a reasonable dynamic range. If anyone wants to delve into this situation I'll be happy to discuss this situation further. James Bongiorno |
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Re: SAE Owner's Showcase
sstinc:"First sstinc:Last"
Dear Luther,
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Depending on what SAE amps you have, they certainly can be adjusted to drive electrostatics. When I worked there, Morris was OVERLY concerned about protection circuits mainly because he didn't at that time understand the true nature of VA loadlines. Most engineers STILL don't understand the situation. A properly designed amplifier should be perfectly capable of driving any rated VA into a load in ALL FOUR QUADRANTS. However, this ends up being a true enigma because in order to protect against a true short circuit, volt-amp limiting must be used. You can modify or remove the limiters with no adverse effects AS LONG as you don't short the outputs. 2 ohm reactive loads should not be a problem assuming that the music you listen to has a reasonable dynamic range. If anyone wants to delve into this situation I'll be happy to discuss this situation further. James Bongiorno Wardsweb wrote: From: "Wardsweb" <wardsweb@...> |
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Re: SAE Owner's Showcase
Wardsweb
FYI: You don't have to have full SAE systems to get posted on my site, so feel free to send me anything your proud of. I ,also, have a lot of Carver gear, but didn't think that would be of much interest here. Mainly large high current amps. I would use SAE to drive my electrostats, but they can't handle the 2 ohm load.
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Luther ----- Original Message -----
From: jgross@... To: SAE_Talk@... Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2000 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [SAE_Talk] SAE Owner's Showcase From: jgross@... I'm going to address several messages in this one message..... I'd love to show off my stuff Luther, but being the soundfile that I am, I don't use all of the SAE stuff in a single system. .....snip..... As far as sharing resources, I will be uploading some of my notes to the sae_talk file area for now, until wardsweb becomes operational. As far as the Inkel stuff goes, the only good thing about it is that they used very standard components and are readily available. I found the replacement chips I needed thrugh the ECG Sylvania website. You can download a cross reference software package from them for free. Whew! Lotta typing!. Anyhow...that's it from here. -=Jeff=- 450 W. Byberry Rd. #T22 Philadelphia, PA 19116 (215) 464-6077 [voice] (520) 752-4371 [E-fax] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Please click above to support our sponsor ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Community email addresses: Post message: SAE_Talk@... Subscribe: SAE_Talk-subscribe@... Unsubscribe: SAE_Talk-unsubscribe@... List owner: SAE_Talk-owner@... Shortcut URL to this page: |
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Member Status Update
Mark Gurries
Hello All,
We stand at 14 members so far. With WardsWeb help, we should grow quickly. Spread the word my SAE friends about the site. The more members the larger the database of SAE knowledge and experiences. And maybe we got some stories to tell too!! We have a ongoing survey still running on the SAE_TALK onelist website under surveys. Tell us what amps you own. Also we have a file upload area for documents ect. But the space is only 5 Megs which simply means that a few big JPEGS and the space is gone. Instead please use if for small pictures or scans of stuff. I also currently allow attachments to SAE_TALK email messages. But if people start to complain about download times due to large file attachments, I will have to disable this feature. So use this capability wisely. Best Regards, Mark Gurries (replying from home) ---------------------------------------------------------- Battery Charging and Power Systems Application Engineer Linear Technology,1630 McCarthy Blvd, Milpitas, CA, 95035 WRK(408) 954-8400 x3864 Email: gurriesm@... FAX(408) 428-9413 WebSite: ---------------------------------------------------------- Work & Hobby Related Website Info: Smart Battery Charging Systems: Model Railroad Club: ---------------------------------------------------------- |
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Re: SAE Owner's Showcase
I'm going to address several messages in this one message.....
I'd love to show off my stuff Luther, but being the soundfile that I am, I don't use all of the SAE stuff in a single system. The 1800 is in my studio, the 2100 amp is in a rack I use on the road, and the P102 is waiting to go into a system I'm building for the living room. In my studio I'm using a Preamp made by Sanyo when they had a line of hi-end FET stuff. It's a C55-plus preamp, one rack space, nice controls, and hasn't given me a day of trouble....Well, I blew out a transistor in the power supply, but that was due to something stupid I did. I use a Sony 59ES Dat machine that I cannot find a rack kit for, and i use a Technics ST-S4 Quartz lock Tuner, which has a rack kit. It's also one rack space high. For cassette I use a TEAC c-3x. If any of you need a great rack mount cassette or CD, I suggest the pro line from TEAC. They look great, and have that big ol' analog feel from the SAE days. and they're NEW! There's even a unit that combines a Cassette and CD in one rackmount unit (3 rack spaces high). As far as sharing resources, I will be uploading some of my notes to the sae_talk file area for now, until wardsweb becomes operational. As far as the Inkel stuff goes, the only good thing about it is that they used very standard components and are readily available. I found the replacement chips I needed thrugh the ECG Sylvania website. You can download a cross reference software package from them for free. Whew! Lotta typing!. Anyhow...that's it from here. -=Jeff=- 450 W. Byberry Rd. #T22 Philadelphia, PA 19116 (215) 464-6077 [voice] (520) 752-4371 [E-fax] |
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Re: racks
Mark Gurries
Luther Ward wrote:
From: wardsweb@...I would be interested in 1U panels. But I have no place to put them!!!! Best Regards, Mark Gurries (replying from home) ---------------------------------------------------------- Battery Charging and Power Systems Application Engineer Linear Technology,1630 McCarthy Blvd, Milpitas, CA, 95035 WRK(408) 954-8400 x3864 Email: gurriesm@... FAX(408) 428-9413 WebSite: ---------------------------------------------------------- Work & Hobby Related Website Info: Smart Battery Charging Systems: Model Railroad Club: ---------------------------------------------------------- |
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Re: SAE Owner's Showcase
Mark Gurries
Luther Ward wrote:
From: wardsweb@...I could use one for my C101. I have a 4000 owners manual and schematic. Best Regards, Mark Gurries (replying from home) ---------------------------------------------------------- Battery Charging and Power Systems Application Engineer Linear Technology,1630 McCarthy Blvd, Milpitas, CA, 95035 WRK(408) 954-8400 x3864 Email: gurriesm@... FAX(408) 428-9413 WebSite: ---------------------------------------------------------- Work & Hobby Related Website Info: Smart Battery Charging Systems: Model Railroad Club: ---------------------------------------------------------- |
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Re: C102
sstinc:"First sstinc:Last"
Dear folks,
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To be sure, I am very proud of the 31B amp that I designed. It was the first dual-differential full-complementary amp in the world. It was the model for all that followed. I believe if my memory serves me correctly that SAE made around 50,000 units. It has miraculously proven to be exceedingly reliable. As far as the output devices go, I wouldn't worry to much about them. If they haven't failed by this time, they will probably last forever. Motorola (now "ON" semiconductor) does have a much newer and much stronger set of devices that can be used if necessary however, the old saying still applies ie: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I would also strongly recommend that anyone into upgrading these amps seriously consider replacing all of the comp caps with dipped silvered mica types. Also, replace all of the ceramic bypass caps with high frequency dipped polyesters. Also, replace the input and output jacks with gold types. Finally and most important, REFURBISH ALL OF THE GROUNDS and check for cold or poor solder joints. These things creep up on you over time. All for now. James Bongiorno gurriesm wrote: From: gurriesm <gurriesm@...> |
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