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Dear James,

What more can you tell us about the sealed Filtech filters
used in the Mk. VIB tuner?

What does "barely acceptable" mean? Does that mean these
filters were:

1) generally poor filters, even when "acceptable" OR
2) a small percentage were quite good but a lot
were rejected at the SAE factory OR
3) The best ones just barely met the spec (but
the spec was a good spec to meet to begin with)

Since they are sealed, can these be "unsealed"? Are
the filters potted with epoxy (say it isn't so!) or
soldered shut or both? Does Filtech exist any longer?

Do you think the problem with the filters is design or just
poor quality control at the Filtech factory or both?

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

Hello,

Does anybody on the list have experience with the
SAE Mk. 1 Preamplifier? Is it similar to the
transistorized Marantz 7T?

What is its construction and build quality like?

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

Hello,

Is the DAK that's been mentioned as the final
purchaser of SAE the DAK as in Drew Allan Kaplan of
the mail order catalog fame?

If so, then he has just reemerged:

Check out for the
continuing story -- if so inclined.

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

Hello James,

I did some research and it appears that Stackpole
was bought out by a company called Electro-Switch,
which, apparently, is buying up a lot of switch companies.

The site that displays what they can do for the old
switch manufacturers:



Maybe this company has incorporated the switches into
their product line.

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

James Bongiorno wrote:

James,
So how does Thalia stack up against Thaedra ? !
Thanks,
Tony.

On Sun, 23 Apr 2000 16:07:29 -0700 James Bongiorno <sstinc@...>
writes:

Dear Paul,
You are correct in that the circuitry of the Charlie remained the
same and
only the final alignment wasn't done. As far as Marantz goes,
Standard Radio
of Japan was the company that built the gear and which Marantz
ultimately
bought Standard Radio after the Japanese Government relaxed the
foreign
ownership laws.
James

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Thank you for the explanation! So, if I do come across a
Charlie without the rack handles, it's a later one, but
still the same circuit-wise. Right? The later ones just need
the final alignment which you provide along with other

improvements.

What improvements would be result of your upgrades to the Charlie?
Do these changes put the Charlie right up there with the
10b (At least selectivity-wise)?

Since you mentioned Crown Radio -- didn't they do Marantz's
70's production?

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote:

Dear Paul,
Charlie's are hard to come by but on occasion one may be found.

The

only

thing to look out for is whether one has handles or not. After I

sold SUMO,

there were about 1500 more units that were brought in. However,

two

things

are of important note. The first is that the successor owners of

Sumo were

too cheap to continue to put on the very expensive front panel

handles.

Also, since all of the RF equipment used to do the final

alignment

was my

personal gear, and I took it with me when I left, they chose not

to

buy new

equipment to do the final alignment. A tribute to the design was

that it was

still pretty good WITHOUT this final alignment. I just couldn't

get

the

factory in Japan to spend the "time" to do it according to my

instructions

even though I offered to pay for it. It was against their

manufacturing

"philosophy", to waste production time. Please understand that I

designed

this unit along with the "Electra" preamp but had them made in

Japan by

Crown Radio. If I were to have made them here, they would have

cost

three or

four times more money. Also, I was the only one who did all the

alignment of

the Charlie's personally. Even though I wrote out the complete

procedure,

the new Sumo owners were to cheap or too lazy to do the proper

job.

Also,

since this was my first total complete tuner, as opposed to

working

on units

designed by others, it had a few minor shortcomings. This is

what

my upgrade

modification remedies. The problem with RF design and

modification

is that

it takes a whole lot longer to do than working on amps or

preamps.

James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Thank you for the information you have been very generous
with you time! My eye will definitely remain open for a Sumo
Charlie! When examining a Charlie for possible purchase is
there any failure to be on the lookout for -- especially
those that cannot be repaired (e.g. proprietary ICs or

transistors)?

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...>

wrote:

Dear Paul,
You are right about the photo with Saul Marantz. Now I

remember

that it was

Saul himself that fed that controversy about the IF filters.

Notice

that he

refered to the filters as Butterworth OR linear phase.

Unfortunately, Saul

was not an engineer but rather a commercial artist by trade.

A

case

of foot

in mouth disease for which on occasion, I've suffered from

too.

To

the best

of my recollection, there was no SAE Mark VI, but rather

only a

VIB. When I

got to SAE, the VIB was in the process of being produced

however,

they

didn't work. That's what I was originally hired for ie: to

get

them

fixed

and out the door.
As far as the "Charlie" is concerned, I made 5000 of them

and

as

far as

specs go, just use the 10B specs with the distortion lowered

by

a

factor of

5 or 10 times and the S/N ratio bettered by 10 to 15 dB's.
James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Thank you for the information regarding the "Butterworth"
filters! It's always nice to set things straight. In the
book "Vintage Hi-Fi Spotter's Guide Vol 1" there is a copy
of a Marantz advertisement with an "interview" of Saul
Marantz where he states: "we've developed the first

commercial

application of the "Butterworth" or phase-linear filter."
Perhaps this is were the misconception came from.

Several references have been made to a SAE VIB. Is that

the

SAE VI with the LED readout? Any other changes? How does

a

SAE VI compare with an SAE VIB?

What more can you tell us about the Charlie Tuner? I've

only

seen a few fuzzy picures. There seems to be nothing on

the

internet about it. What are its specifications and

abilities?

Does it have similar or better performance specs when

compared

to the 10b?

As you may tell, I really like RF and have restored
Collins R-390a and R-392 series of military HF
receivers.

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...>

wrote:

Dear Paul,
Probably the biggest misconception about the 10B was the

term

coined by some

idiot in Marantz marketing. The 10B (and subsequently

the

20

DID

NOT use the

"butterworth" configuration for the IF. Many people have

been

very

confused

about this over the decades. The 10B used 'LINEAR PHASE

FILTERS'

which are

much better. For the uninitiated, the alignment

proceedure

is a

nightmare.

You must remember that there was an original "10" of

which

there

were about

100 units made and Marantz would like to forget about

that

as

it

was a sort

of botch. It used torroid ferrites in the IF instead of

the

pot

cores that

went into the 10B. Anyway, no RF engineer in his right

mind

would

use the

"butterworth" configuration for the IF as the phase can

never

be

right.

Unfortunately, the SAE used filters (linear phase) but

were

sealed

units

from Filtech. Since they were sealed, there were no IF

adjustments.

Fortunately the filters were barely acceptable and held

up

pretty

good over

time. However, they were no match for the 10B.Please

bear

the

following in

mind. There have been only 3 tuners ever made in this

world

that

had 18

poles of linear phase filters in the IF: the 10B, the

original

Sequerra, and

my "Charlie". This is one of the elements that separates

these

three tuners

from all of the rest.
James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Those performance specs for the 10b are remarkable

(especially

the adjacent figure)! Would the SAE Mk. VI have

similar

performance

in this regard? Doesn't the SAE make use of

Butterworth

filters

in the IF as does the Marantz? Maybe the filters are

used in

a scaled down fashion placing the Mk. 6 performace

around

that

of the Marantz 20b?

My offer to anyone of $1000 for a working Marantz 10b

still

stands! (and probably will remain standing for a long

time!)

:-)

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno

<sstinc@e...>

wrote:

Dear Paul,
Most people, make that virtually no one, understands

the

design

of

the 10B

and this is a fact. Even though the stability of the

tuner

is

quite

remarkable over time, it is very critical in its

alignment

proceedures.

There are not 5 people in this country who could

properly

align

this unit.

If you knew the IF characteristics of the design you

would

understand that

closely spaced station interference is practically

impossible

with

this

tuner. Correctly aligned, the ADJACENT channel

selectivity

is a

whopping 38

dB's and the alternate channel selectivity is over

100

dB's.

AND

this is in

NARROW BAND which is the only mode that the 10B

operates

under.

This is

truly remarkable considering that the 10B makes

better

specs

and

performance

in its "narrow" band mode than virtually all other

tuners

in

their

wide band

mode.
James Bongiorno

pbigelow@u... wrote:

Hello James,

I have no first hand knowledge of image problems

with

the 10b, I have just encountered reports of

problems

with

the close spaced signals. The 10b's reported on,

of

course,

may have needed work or alignment. If I had a

properly

restored one, I could answer my own question

pretty

quickly.

Anybody out there want to sell me a working

Marantz

10b

for $1000? :-)

Paul Bigelow

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Hello,

So how does Thalia stack up against Thaedra ?

On Sun, 23 Apr 2000 16:07:29 -0700 James Bongiorno <sstinc@...>
writes:

Dear Paul,
You are correct in that the circuitry of the Charlie remained the
same and
only the final alignment wasn't done. As far as Marantz goes,
Standard Radio
of Japan was the company that built the gear and which Marantz
ultimately
bought Standard Radio after the Japanese Government relaxed the
foreign
ownership laws.
James

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Thank you for the explanation! So, if I do come across a
Charlie without the rack handles, it's a later one, but
still the same circuit-wise. Right? The later ones just need
the final alignment which you provide along with other

improvements.

What improvements would be result of your upgrades to the Charlie?
Do these changes put the Charlie right up there with the
10b (At least selectivity-wise)?

Since you mentioned Crown Radio -- didn't they do Marantz's
70's production?

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote:

Dear Paul,
Charlie's are hard to come by but on occasion one may be found.

The

only

thing to look out for is whether one has handles or not. After I

sold SUMO,

there were about 1500 more units that were brought in. However,

two

things

are of important note. The first is that the successor owners of

Sumo were

too cheap to continue to put on the very expensive front panel

handles.

Also, since all of the RF equipment used to do the final

alignment

was my

personal gear, and I took it with me when I left, they chose not

to

buy new

equipment to do the final alignment. A tribute to the design was

that it was

still pretty good WITHOUT this final alignment. I just couldn't

get

the

factory in Japan to spend the "time" to do it according to my

instructions

even though I offered to pay for it. It was against their

manufacturing

"philosophy", to waste production time. Please understand that I

designed

this unit along with the "Electra" preamp but had them made in

Japan by

Crown Radio. If I were to have made them here, they would have

cost

three or

four times more money. Also, I was the only one who did all the

alignment of

the Charlie's personally. Even though I wrote out the complete

procedure,

the new Sumo owners were to cheap or too lazy to do the proper

job.

Also,

since this was my first total complete tuner, as opposed to

working

on units

designed by others, it had a few minor shortcomings. This is

what

my upgrade

modification remedies. The problem with RF design and

modification

is that

it takes a whole lot longer to do than working on amps or

preamps.

James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Thank you for the information you have been very generous
with you time! My eye will definitely remain open for a Sumo
Charlie! When examining a Charlie for possible purchase is
there any failure to be on the lookout for -- especially
those that cannot be repaired (e.g. proprietary ICs or

transistors)?

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...>

wrote:

Dear Paul,
You are right about the photo with Saul Marantz. Now I

remember

that it was

Saul himself that fed that controversy about the IF filters.

Notice

that he

refered to the filters as Butterworth OR linear phase.

Unfortunately, Saul

was not an engineer but rather a commercial artist by trade.

A

case

of foot

in mouth disease for which on occasion, I've suffered from

too.

To

the best

of my recollection, there was no SAE Mark VI, but rather

only a

VIB. When I

got to SAE, the VIB was in the process of being produced

however,

they

didn't work. That's what I was originally hired for ie: to

get

them

fixed

and out the door.
As far as the "Charlie" is concerned, I made 5000 of them

and

as

far as

specs go, just use the 10B specs with the distortion lowered

by

a

factor of

5 or 10 times and the S/N ratio bettered by 10 to 15 dB's.
James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Thank you for the information regarding the "Butterworth"
filters! It's always nice to set things straight. In the
book "Vintage Hi-Fi Spotter's Guide Vol 1" there is a copy
of a Marantz advertisement with an "interview" of Saul
Marantz where he states: "we've developed the first

commercial

application of the "Butterworth" or phase-linear filter."
Perhaps this is were the misconception came from.

Several references have been made to a SAE VIB. Is that

the

SAE VI with the LED readout? Any other changes? How does

a

SAE VI compare with an SAE VIB?

What more can you tell us about the Charlie Tuner? I've

only

seen a few fuzzy picures. There seems to be nothing on

the

internet about it. What are its specifications and

abilities?

Does it have similar or better performance specs when

compared

to the 10b?

As you may tell, I really like RF and have restored
Collins R-390a and R-392 series of military HF
receivers.

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...>

wrote:

Dear Paul,
Probably the biggest misconception about the 10B was the

term

coined by some

idiot in Marantz marketing. The 10B (and subsequently

the

20

DID

NOT use the

"butterworth" configuration for the IF. Many people have

been

very

confused

about this over the decades. The 10B used 'LINEAR PHASE

FILTERS'

which are

much better. For the uninitiated, the alignment

proceedure

is a

nightmare.

You must remember that there was an original "10" of

which

there

were about

100 units made and Marantz would like to forget about

that

as

it

was a sort

of botch. It used torroid ferrites in the IF instead of

the

pot

cores that

went into the 10B. Anyway, no RF engineer in his right

mind

would

use the

"butterworth" configuration for the IF as the phase can

never

be

right.

Unfortunately, the SAE used filters (linear phase) but

were

sealed

units

from Filtech. Since they were sealed, there were no IF

adjustments.

Fortunately the filters were barely acceptable and held

up

pretty

good over

time. However, they were no match for the 10B.Please

bear

the

following in

mind. There have been only 3 tuners ever made in this

world

that

had 18

poles of linear phase filters in the IF: the 10B, the

original

Sequerra, and

my "Charlie". This is one of the elements that separates

these

three tuners

from all of the rest.
James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Those performance specs for the 10b are remarkable

(especially

the adjacent figure)! Would the SAE Mk. VI have

similar

performance

in this regard? Doesn't the SAE make use of

Butterworth

filters

in the IF as does the Marantz? Maybe the filters are

used in

a scaled down fashion placing the Mk. 6 performace

around

that

of the Marantz 20b?

My offer to anyone of $1000 for a working Marantz 10b

still

stands! (and probably will remain standing for a long

time!)

:-)

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno

<sstinc@e...>

wrote:

Dear Paul,
Most people, make that virtually no one, understands

the

design

of

the 10B

and this is a fact. Even though the stability of the

tuner

is

quite

remarkable over time, it is very critical in its

alignment

proceedures.

There are not 5 people in this country who could

properly

align

this unit.

If you knew the IF characteristics of the design you

would

understand that

closely spaced station interference is practically

impossible

with

this

tuner. Correctly aligned, the ADJACENT channel

selectivity

is a

whopping 38

dB's and the alternate channel selectivity is over

100

dB's.

AND

this is in

NARROW BAND which is the only mode that the 10B

operates

under.

This is

truly remarkable considering that the 10B makes

better

specs

and

performance

in its "narrow" band mode than virtually all other

tuners

in

their

wide band

mode.
James Bongiorno

pbigelow@u... wrote:

Hello James,

I have no first hand knowledge of image problems

with

the 10b, I have just encountered reports of

problems

with

the close spaced signals. The 10b's reported on,

of

course,

may have needed work or alignment. If I had a

properly

restored one, I could answer my own question

pretty

quickly.

Anybody out there want to sell me a working

Marantz

10b

for $1000? :-)

Paul Bigelow

---------------------------------------------------------------------

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Hello,

Pop open the hood of a Thaedra, and you will
see: Intellegently laid out card frame construction
(if you have a JRC HF communications receiver you
have an idea -- like a computer's plug in boards).
Despite the number of controls and switches, the
wiring is at a minimum. In fact, I cannot see one
shielded wire (there are some wires with a ground
wire twisted around it -- but not many). Wonderful
Noble tone, balance, and volume controls. Glass
epoxy boards, high quality sealed switches, precision
resistors, EVOX capacitors, an INCREDIBLE Leviton
power switch, a BIG transformer surronded by a thick
aluminum cage -- the list goes on and on. This was
pretty amazing stuff in 1977 and virtually unheard
of in commercial applications. There may have been
some Military communication receivers with that kind
of build (but those cost $5,000-$10,000 even then!).
Today it is still amazing!

On the outside there are solid, heavy, machined knobs
(nine, to be exact). A heavy gauge steel chassis with
a fully plated bottom and back panel. Six, yes SIX
auxilary AC plugs, scope outputs, two front panel
tape jacks, and two front panel headphone jacks. Whew!
I can't think of a single high end preamp (tube or
solid state) today (maybe McIntosh) that has these
features.

James,

What difficulties did you encounter in obatining
parts for the Thaedra in 1977? Today there are
scads of precision capacitor and resistor manufacturers
but what about then? Was mil-spec parts the primary
source?

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

Hello Tony,

I purchased the Thaedra about eight years ago (it has never
needed a repair since I bought it) because I wanted a high
end preamp with tone controls, plus, it had headphone
jacks -- what a deal! It worked, was in great physical condition,
came with a manual, and the price was right ($150!). The Thaedra
smokes the competition. I think a magazine like Stereophile
should put it up against the high-end of today and see how it
turns out. I'll bet they'll end up wondering what's been
going on all these years.

Here's what's been going on: The major manufactures have
mastered the art of creative art of injection molding (look at
all the "pretty" compact lifestyle systems with intersting
shapes at Circuit City). The high-end have learned how to
create thick faceplates.

Off the soapbox again!

To their credit, the high-end CAN use high quality parts and
materials, and the precision of those components have become
quite good. But what's been done with them? Preamps have
less and less features these days.

I guess, like art, Hi-Fi is going through its "minimalist"
period!

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., tony l scimemi <tonys34@j...> wrote:

Hello,

I have been reading the dialog about the Thaedra and it's almost

as if

this preamp has been elevated to the best the world has ever or

will ever

see ! I beleive JB and I am on the lookout for one.

James, is it really true that, in your estimate, if the Thaedra

were to

be (massed) produced today, the cost would be in excess of $10,000

?

Will you please briefly go into more detail about why this is so,

and

have you thought about doing it ?

There are many, many people who would buy the new one , i would

imagine

!

Thanks,
Tony.

On Sun, 23 Apr 2000 16:12:24 -0700 James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...>
writes:

Dear Paul,
You have justified my reason for being. After all, I set out to
prove that a
transistorized product could hold its own against the "tube"
competition.
Believe this:I designed that preamp 25 years ago and from what I

can

gather
from what's being done today, the industry has taken major steps
backwards
regarding amps and preamps. They have learned nothing. I am sorry
for
sounding arrogant and cynical, but you have said it for me.
Hopefully, you
can understand why I am doing upgrades.
James

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Inspired by our exchange, I went back into the Thaedra today
and gave it a proper going over and noticed some interesting
things such as:

1. The last 3 digits of the serial number engraved INSIDE the
plated back panel.
2. Diode markings hand etched into the circuit board.
A little bit of GAS history, huh?

During this time, all the boards were cleaned, the gold
pins treated with De-Oxit, and a couple of places where
I missed some other previous sloppy repairs. I am constantly
amazed by some of the careless solder work I run across.
The original work was, thankfully, quite good. The plated
parts have held up quite well over the years, the lettering
on the back is completely intact and the plating is still
bright, for the most part. The only area that has somewhat
dulled is the area around the RCA jacks. Still, it isn't
bad.

What is the purpose of the connector sockets on top of the
plug in boards? I can only assume that either diagnostic cards
or test equippment plug into those sockets.

When reassembled, I listened to the unit for several hours
listening to everything from Sinatra to Canned Heat. The
preamp really sounds great. Transistorized amps and preamps,
for the most part, become almost impossible for me to listen
to over extended periods of time as I almost get a headache.
Not so the Thaedra, it is real smooth and I get a sense of
"being there" especially in the vocal range as good vacuum tube
preamps also convey.

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...>

wrote:

Dear Paul,
It is truly amazing that anyone in their right mind would

sell a

Thaedra for

$175. If I see one I'll buy it. The technology that went into

that

unit was

ahead of its time and is still viable even today. The sad

truth

is

that if I

had to make that unit today with all of today's cost

structure,

if

would

have to retail for around $10,000 to $15000.
James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Thank you for the response. The upgrade is being

considered.

In my post, I was just indicating that, even today, without
modification, the Thaedra is a great performer. If anybody
finds one -- grab it!

Paul Bigelow
--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...>

wrote:

Dear Paul,
There were approximately 3000 Thaedras made and yes you

are

right

about the

serial number sequence. The only two face plates that

were

made

were the

white, which is my doing, and the normal black. There was

never

a

silver or

a gold plated unit.
If you are happy with the performance of your unit then

fine.

But

when I get

done upgrading a Thaedra, the improvements are

significant

in

all

areas.

James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

The Thaedra was a lucky find. I happened to walk
into a local stereo repair shop and there it was,
just begging for a nice home!

Because of the sloppy repair job that had been
done to it previously the boards were checked
for bad/cold solder joints. It is holding up
quite nicely.

The quiet phono preamp is real joy -- very
detailed and no annoyances like background
hum or hiss. Since headphones are used for
most of the listening, I'm real sensitive to
those kind of distractions. Plus, it has tone
controls! An audiophile preamp just cannot be
found with tone controls these days. The Thaedra's
are tastefully done and work well. Most of my
music listening comes from the 50's and 60's
so the tone controls are a significant feature
for me.

Approximately how many Thaedras were manufactured?
I have only seen one other. The hand etched serial
number on mine is A301517 -- does that mean the
1517th Thaedra?

Finally, was there ever a silver-faced Thaedra?
It seems I can recall a photograph (maybe in a
GAS-ETTE) of one.

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

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Dear James,

I'm not exactly sure what's going on with hi-fi these days.
The high-end products certainly aren't cheap and you need
$1000 interconnects to be with the "in crowd". "Keep it
simple" with battleship construction seems to be the driving
force today. The main reason I do not purchase any high
end preamps these days is lack of bass and treble controls.
The Thaedra proves it can be done right AND tastefully.

Since the early 80's crash of the major players, hi-fi just
hasn't been the same to me. I have lots of brochures from
Pioneer, Sansui, JVC, etc. from the late 70's and even these
manufacturers took pride in circuit innovations, FM selectivity,
Capture Ratio, distortion, construction, heat sinks, etc. Even
if some it was snake oil, at least some major manufacturers tried.
Not any more.

Today, the home electonic sector does not seem to care. That
leaves the small companies and the remaining enthusiasts to
"carry the torch". With inflation, maybe it's just gotten too
expensive and risky to develop something truly NEW. Maybe
accountants keep getting in the way.

Maybe if "Hi-Fi" as a hobby becomes generally popular again
maybe the trail can be picked up where it left off.

Now I'm off MY soapbox!

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote:

Dear Paul,
You have justified my reason for being. After all, I set out to

prove that a

transistorized product could hold its own against the "tube"

competition.

Believe this:I designed that preamp 25 years ago and from what I

can gather

from what's being done today, the industry has taken major steps

backwards

regarding amps and preamps. They have learned nothing. I am sorry

for

sounding arrogant and cynical, but you have said it for me.

Hopefully, you

can understand why I am doing upgrades.
James

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Inspired by our exchange, I went back into the Thaedra today
and gave it a proper going over and noticed some interesting
things such as:

1. The last 3 digits of the serial number engraved INSIDE the
plated back panel.
2. Diode markings hand etched into the circuit board.
A little bit of GAS history, huh?

During this time, all the boards were cleaned, the gold
pins treated with De-Oxit, and a couple of places where
I missed some other previous sloppy repairs. I am constantly
amazed by some of the careless solder work I run across.
The original work was, thankfully, quite good. The plated
parts have held up quite well over the years, the lettering
on the back is completely intact and the plating is still
bright, for the most part. The only area that has somewhat
dulled is the area around the RCA jacks. Still, it isn't
bad.

What is the purpose of the connector sockets on top of the
plug in boards? I can only assume that either diagnostic cards
or test equippment plug into those sockets.

When reassembled, I listened to the unit for several hours
listening to everything from Sinatra to Canned Heat. The
preamp really sounds great. Transistorized amps and preamps,
for the most part, become almost impossible for me to listen
to over extended periods of time as I almost get a headache.
Not so the Thaedra, it is real smooth and I get a sense of
"being there" especially in the vocal range as good vacuum tube
preamps also convey.

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote:

Dear Paul,
It is truly amazing that anyone in their right mind would sell

a

Thaedra for

$175. If I see one I'll buy it. The technology that went into

that

unit was

ahead of its time and is still viable even today. The sad truth

is

that if I

had to make that unit today with all of today's cost structure,

if

would

have to retail for around $10,000 to $15000.
James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Thank you for the response. The upgrade is being considered.
In my post, I was just indicating that, even today, without
modification, the Thaedra is a great performer. If anybody
finds one -- grab it!

Paul Bigelow
--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...>

wrote:

Dear Paul,
There were approximately 3000 Thaedras made and yes you are

right

about the

serial number sequence. The only two face plates that were

made

were the

white, which is my doing, and the normal black. There was

never

a

silver or

a gold plated unit.
If you are happy with the performance of your unit then

fine.

But

when I get

done upgrading a Thaedra, the improvements are significant

in

all

areas.

James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

The Thaedra was a lucky find. I happened to walk
into a local stereo repair shop and there it was,
just begging for a nice home!

Because of the sloppy repair job that had been
done to it previously the boards were checked
for bad/cold solder joints. It is holding up
quite nicely.

The quiet phono preamp is real joy -- very
detailed and no annoyances like background
hum or hiss. Since headphones are used for
most of the listening, I'm real sensitive to
those kind of distractions. Plus, it has tone
controls! An audiophile preamp just cannot be
found with tone controls these days. The Thaedra's
are tastefully done and work well. Most of my
music listening comes from the 50's and 60's
so the tone controls are a significant feature
for me.

Approximately how many Thaedras were manufactured?
I have only seen one other. The hand etched serial
number on mine is A301517 -- does that mean the
1517th Thaedra?

Finally, was there ever a silver-faced Thaedra?
It seems I can recall a photograph (maybe in a
GAS-ETTE) of one.

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

---------------------------------------------------------------------

---

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find her here. Visit your online high school class

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at:

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Dear James,

Mergers seem to have a way of destroying the original
vision. Accounts and business majors step in and
say "to survive you have to....". I'm waiting to see
what Clarion will do to McIntosh. I'm seeing signs
in their product that tell me all is not the same.

Basically, I think conglomerates are buying brand name
recognition and the audience that goes with it. The
visionary took the risk and sweated out building the business,
the corporation swoops down and milks the "brand" for
all it's worth. When the "brand" craters, move on to
pick up another "brand".

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote:

Dear Paul,
Consider yourself lucky. You have an original Thaedra, that is,

MINE. After

I sold the company to the partners, they decided to make changes

hence the

LED got changed to red and they added serration marks around the

volume and

tone controls as well as screwing up the internal circuits. Why

does it seem

that every company in our industry that gets bought seems

ultimately to go

down the tubes. SAE, GAS, SUMO, MARANTZ, DYNACO, etc. It never

ceases to

amaze me that when a company has a "formula for success", new

owners seem to

think that they have to change it. Stupid human behavior. If it

"ain't

broke, don't fix it" doesn't seem to apply in these circumstances.
James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

In going through the past postings to the SAE_Talk, I noticed
that you referred to the "GREEN LED" Thaedra. Mine has the
Green LED and I was wondering the signifcance of that feature.
Later production with improvements, perhaps? I assume there
are other LED colors...?

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Hello,

I have been reading the dialog about the Thaedra and it's almost as if

this preamp has been elevated to the best the world has ever or will ever
see ! I beleive JB and I am on the lookout for one.

James, is it really true that, in your estimate, if the Thaedra were to

be (massed) produced today, the cost would be in excess of $10,000 ?

Will you please briefly go into more detail about why this is so, and

have you thought about doing it ?

There are many, many people who would buy the new one , i would imagine

!

Thanks,
Tony.

On Sun, 23 Apr 2000 16:12:24 -0700 James Bongiorno <sstinc@...>
writes:

Dear Paul,
You have justified my reason for being. After all, I set out to
prove that a
transistorized product could hold its own against the "tube"
competition.
Believe this:I designed that preamp 25 years ago and from what I can
gather
from what's being done today, the industry has taken major steps
backwards
regarding amps and preamps. They have learned nothing. I am sorry
for
sounding arrogant and cynical, but you have said it for me.
Hopefully, you
can understand why I am doing upgrades.
James

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Inspired by our exchange, I went back into the Thaedra today
and gave it a proper going over and noticed some interesting
things such as:

1. The last 3 digits of the serial number engraved INSIDE the
plated back panel.
2. Diode markings hand etched into the circuit board.
A little bit of GAS history, huh?

During this time, all the boards were cleaned, the gold
pins treated with De-Oxit, and a couple of places where
I missed some other previous sloppy repairs. I am constantly
amazed by some of the careless solder work I run across.
The original work was, thankfully, quite good. The plated
parts have held up quite well over the years, the lettering
on the back is completely intact and the plating is still
bright, for the most part. The only area that has somewhat
dulled is the area around the RCA jacks. Still, it isn't
bad.

What is the purpose of the connector sockets on top of the
plug in boards? I can only assume that either diagnostic cards
or test equippment plug into those sockets.

When reassembled, I listened to the unit for several hours
listening to everything from Sinatra to Canned Heat. The
preamp really sounds great. Transistorized amps and preamps,
for the most part, become almost impossible for me to listen
to over extended periods of time as I almost get a headache.
Not so the Thaedra, it is real smooth and I get a sense of
"being there" especially in the vocal range as good vacuum tube
preamps also convey.

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote:

Dear Paul,
It is truly amazing that anyone in their right mind would sell a

Thaedra for

$175. If I see one I'll buy it. The technology that went into

that

unit was

ahead of its time and is still viable even today. The sad truth

is

that if I

had to make that unit today with all of today's cost structure,

if

would

have to retail for around $10,000 to $15000.
James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Thank you for the response. The upgrade is being considered.
In my post, I was just indicating that, even today, without
modification, the Thaedra is a great performer. If anybody
finds one -- grab it!

Paul Bigelow
--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...>

wrote:

Dear Paul,
There were approximately 3000 Thaedras made and yes you are

right

about the

serial number sequence. The only two face plates that were

made

were the

white, which is my doing, and the normal black. There was

never

a

silver or

a gold plated unit.
If you are happy with the performance of your unit then

fine.

But

when I get

done upgrading a Thaedra, the improvements are significant

in

all

areas.

James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

The Thaedra was a lucky find. I happened to walk
into a local stereo repair shop and there it was,
just begging for a nice home!

Because of the sloppy repair job that had been
done to it previously the boards were checked
for bad/cold solder joints. It is holding up
quite nicely.

The quiet phono preamp is real joy -- very
detailed and no annoyances like background
hum or hiss. Since headphones are used for
most of the listening, I'm real sensitive to
those kind of distractions. Plus, it has tone
controls! An audiophile preamp just cannot be
found with tone controls these days. The Thaedra's
are tastefully done and work well. Most of my
music listening comes from the 50's and 60's
so the tone controls are a significant feature
for me.

Approximately how many Thaedras were manufactured?
I have only seen one other. The hand etched serial
number on mine is A301517 -- does that mean the
1517th Thaedra?

Finally, was there ever a silver-faced Thaedra?
It seems I can recall a photograph (maybe in a
GAS-ETTE) of one.

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

---------------------------------------------------------------------

---

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million

alumni

already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good

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you'll

find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion

at:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

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Dear Paul,
You have justified my reason for being. After all, I set out to prove that a
transistorized product could hold its own against the "tube" competition.
Believe this:I designed that preamp 25 years ago and from what I can gather
from what's being done today, the industry has taken major steps backwards
regarding amps and preamps. They have learned nothing. I am sorry for
sounding arrogant and cynical, but you have said it for me. Hopefully, you
can understand why I am doing upgrades.
James

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear Paul,
You are correct in that the circuitry of the Charlie remained the same and
only the final alignment wasn't done. As far as Marantz goes, Standard Radio
of Japan was the company that built the gear and which Marantz ultimately
bought Standard Radio after the Japanese Government relaxed the foreign
ownership laws.
James

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear Paul,
Consider yourself lucky. You have an original Thaedra, that is, MINE. After
I sold the company to the partners, they decided to make changes hence the
LED got changed to red and they added serration marks around the volume and
tone controls as well as screwing up the internal circuits. Why does it seem
that every company in our industry that gets bought seems ultimately to go
down the tubes. SAE, GAS, SUMO, MARANTZ, DYNACO, etc. It never ceases to
amaze me that when a company has a "formula for success", new owners seem to
think that they have to change it. Stupid human behavior. If it "ain't
broke, don't fix it" doesn't seem to apply in these circumstances.
James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

In going through the past postings to the SAE_Talk, I noticed
that you referred to the "GREEN LED" Thaedra. Mine has the
Green LED and I was wondering the signifcance of that feature.
Later production with improvements, perhaps? I assume there
are other LED colors...?

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

Dear James,

Inspired by our exchange, I went back into the Thaedra today
and gave it a proper going over and noticed some interesting
things such as:

1. The last 3 digits of the serial number engraved INSIDE the
plated back panel.
2. Diode markings hand etched into the circuit board.
A little bit of GAS history, huh?

During this time, all the boards were cleaned, the gold
pins treated with De-Oxit, and a couple of places where
I missed some other previous sloppy repairs. I am constantly
amazed by some of the careless solder work I run across.
The original work was, thankfully, quite good. The plated
parts have held up quite well over the years, the lettering
on the back is completely intact and the plating is still
bright, for the most part. The only area that has somewhat
dulled is the area around the RCA jacks. Still, it isn't
bad.

What is the purpose of the connector sockets on top of the
plug in boards? I can only assume that either diagnostic cards
or test equippment plug into those sockets.

When reassembled, I listened to the unit for several hours
listening to everything from Sinatra to Canned Heat. The
preamp really sounds great. Transistorized amps and preamps,
for the most part, become almost impossible for me to listen
to over extended periods of time as I almost get a headache.
Not so the Thaedra, it is real smooth and I get a sense of
"being there" especially in the vocal range as good vacuum tube
preamps also convey.

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote:

Dear Paul,
It is truly amazing that anyone in their right mind would sell a

Thaedra for

$175. If I see one I'll buy it. The technology that went into that

unit was

ahead of its time and is still viable even today. The sad truth is

that if I

had to make that unit today with all of today's cost structure, if

would

have to retail for around $10,000 to $15000.
James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Thank you for the response. The upgrade is being considered.
In my post, I was just indicating that, even today, without
modification, the Thaedra is a great performer. If anybody
finds one -- grab it!

Paul Bigelow
--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote:

Dear Paul,
There were approximately 3000 Thaedras made and yes you are

right

about the

serial number sequence. The only two face plates that were made

were the

white, which is my doing, and the normal black. There was never

a

silver or

a gold plated unit.
If you are happy with the performance of your unit then fine.

But

when I get

done upgrading a Thaedra, the improvements are significant in

all

areas.

James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

The Thaedra was a lucky find. I happened to walk
into a local stereo repair shop and there it was,
just begging for a nice home!

Because of the sloppy repair job that had been
done to it previously the boards were checked
for bad/cold solder joints. It is holding up
quite nicely.

The quiet phono preamp is real joy -- very
detailed and no annoyances like background
hum or hiss. Since headphones are used for
most of the listening, I'm real sensitive to
those kind of distractions. Plus, it has tone
controls! An audiophile preamp just cannot be
found with tone controls these days. The Thaedra's
are tastefully done and work well. Most of my
music listening comes from the 50's and 60's
so the tone controls are a significant feature
for me.

Approximately how many Thaedras were manufactured?
I have only seen one other. The hand etched serial
number on mine is A301517 -- does that mean the
1517th Thaedra?

Finally, was there ever a silver-faced Thaedra?
It seems I can recall a photograph (maybe in a
GAS-ETTE) of one.

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

---------------------------------------------------------------------

---

Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4

million

alumni

already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance

you'll

find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion

at:

---------------------------------------------------------------------

---

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Dear James,

Thank you for the explanation! So, if I do come across a
Charlie without the rack handles, it's a later one, but
still the same circuit-wise. Right? The later ones just need
the final alignment which you provide along with other improvements.
What improvements would be result of your upgrades to the Charlie?
Do these changes put the Charlie right up there with the
10b (At least selectivity-wise)?

Since you mentioned Crown Radio -- didn't they do Marantz's
70's production?

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote:

Dear Paul,
Charlie's are hard to come by but on occasion one may be found. The

only

thing to look out for is whether one has handles or not. After I

sold SUMO,

there were about 1500 more units that were brought in. However, two

things

are of important note. The first is that the successor owners of

Sumo were

too cheap to continue to put on the very expensive front panel

handles.

Also, since all of the RF equipment used to do the final alignment

was my

personal gear, and I took it with me when I left, they chose not to

buy new

equipment to do the final alignment. A tribute to the design was

that it was

still pretty good WITHOUT this final alignment. I just couldn't get

the

factory in Japan to spend the "time" to do it according to my

instructions

even though I offered to pay for it. It was against their

manufacturing

"philosophy", to waste production time. Please understand that I

designed

this unit along with the "Electra" preamp but had them made in

Japan by

Crown Radio. If I were to have made them here, they would have cost

three or

four times more money. Also, I was the only one who did all the

alignment of

the Charlie's personally. Even though I wrote out the complete

procedure,

the new Sumo owners were to cheap or too lazy to do the proper job.

Also,

since this was my first total complete tuner, as opposed to working

on units

designed by others, it had a few minor shortcomings. This is what

my upgrade

modification remedies. The problem with RF design and modification

is that

it takes a whole lot longer to do than working on amps or preamps.
James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Thank you for the information you have been very generous
with you time! My eye will definitely remain open for a Sumo
Charlie! When examining a Charlie for possible purchase is
there any failure to be on the lookout for -- especially
those that cannot be repaired (e.g. proprietary ICs or

transistors)?

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote:

Dear Paul,
You are right about the photo with Saul Marantz. Now I remember

that it was

Saul himself that fed that controversy about the IF filters.

Notice

that he

refered to the filters as Butterworth OR linear phase.

Unfortunately, Saul

was not an engineer but rather a commercial artist by trade. A

case

of foot

in mouth disease for which on occasion, I've suffered from too.

To

the best

of my recollection, there was no SAE Mark VI, but rather only a

VIB. When I

got to SAE, the VIB was in the process of being produced

however,

they

didn't work. That's what I was originally hired for ie: to get

them

fixed

and out the door.
As far as the "Charlie" is concerned, I made 5000 of them and

as

far as

specs go, just use the 10B specs with the distortion lowered by

a

factor of

5 or 10 times and the S/N ratio bettered by 10 to 15 dB's.
James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Thank you for the information regarding the "Butterworth"
filters! It's always nice to set things straight. In the
book "Vintage Hi-Fi Spotter's Guide Vol 1" there is a copy
of a Marantz advertisement with an "interview" of Saul
Marantz where he states: "we've developed the first

commercial

application of the "Butterworth" or phase-linear filter."
Perhaps this is were the misconception came from.

Several references have been made to a SAE VIB. Is that the
SAE VI with the LED readout? Any other changes? How does a
SAE VI compare with an SAE VIB?

What more can you tell us about the Charlie Tuner? I've only
seen a few fuzzy picures. There seems to be nothing on the
internet about it. What are its specifications and

abilities?

Does it have similar or better performance specs when

compared

to the 10b?

As you may tell, I really like RF and have restored
Collins R-390a and R-392 series of military HF
receivers.

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...>

wrote:

Dear Paul,
Probably the biggest misconception about the 10B was the

term

coined by some

idiot in Marantz marketing. The 10B (and subsequently the

20

DID

NOT use the

"butterworth" configuration for the IF. Many people have

been

very

confused

about this over the decades. The 10B used 'LINEAR PHASE

FILTERS'

which are

much better. For the uninitiated, the alignment proceedure

is a

nightmare.

You must remember that there was an original "10" of which

there

were about

100 units made and Marantz would like to forget about that

as

it

was a sort

of botch. It used torroid ferrites in the IF instead of the

pot

cores that

went into the 10B. Anyway, no RF engineer in his right mind

would

use the

"butterworth" configuration for the IF as the phase can

never

be

right.

Unfortunately, the SAE used filters (linear phase) but were

sealed

units

from Filtech. Since they were sealed, there were no IF

adjustments.

Fortunately the filters were barely acceptable and held up

pretty

good over

time. However, they were no match for the 10B.Please bear

the

following in

mind. There have been only 3 tuners ever made in this world

that

had 18

poles of linear phase filters in the IF: the 10B, the

original

Sequerra, and

my "Charlie". This is one of the elements that separates

these

three tuners

from all of the rest.
James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Those performance specs for the 10b are remarkable

(especially

the adjacent figure)! Would the SAE Mk. VI have similar

performance

in this regard? Doesn't the SAE make use of Butterworth

filters

in the IF as does the Marantz? Maybe the filters are

used in

a scaled down fashion placing the Mk. 6 performace around

that

of the Marantz 20b?

My offer to anyone of $1000 for a working Marantz 10b

still

stands! (and probably will remain standing for a long

time!)

:-)

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno

<sstinc@e...>

wrote:

Dear Paul,
Most people, make that virtually no one, understands

the

design

of

the 10B

and this is a fact. Even though the stability of the

tuner

is

quite

remarkable over time, it is very critical in its

alignment

proceedures.

There are not 5 people in this country who could

properly

align

this unit.

If you knew the IF characteristics of the design you

would

understand that

closely spaced station interference is practically

impossible

with

this

tuner. Correctly aligned, the ADJACENT channel

selectivity

is a

whopping 38

dB's and the alternate channel selectivity is over 100

dB's.

AND

this is in

NARROW BAND which is the only mode that the 10B

operates

under.

This is

truly remarkable considering that the 10B makes better

specs

and

performance

in its "narrow" band mode than virtually all other

tuners

in

their

wide band

mode.
James Bongiorno

pbigelow@u... wrote:

Hello James,

I have no first hand knowledge of image problems with
the 10b, I have just encountered reports of problems

with

the close spaced signals. The 10b's reported on, of

course,

may have needed work or alignment. If I had a

properly

restored one, I could answer my own question pretty
quickly.

Anybody out there want to sell me a working Marantz

10b

for $1000? :-)

Paul Bigelow

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here:

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here:

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Dear Paul,
Charlie's are hard to come by but on occasion one may be found. The only
thing to look out for is whether one has handles or not. After I sold SUMO,
there were about 1500 more units that were brought in. However, two things
are of important note. The first is that the successor owners of Sumo were
too cheap to continue to put on the very expensive front panel handles.
Also, since all of the RF equipment used to do the final alignment was my
personal gear, and I took it with me when I left, they chose not to buy new
equipment to do the final alignment. A tribute to the design was that it was
still pretty good WITHOUT this final alignment. I just couldn't get the
factory in Japan to spend the "time" to do it according to my instructions
even though I offered to pay for it. It was against their manufacturing
"philosophy", to waste production time. Please understand that I designed
this unit along with the "Electra" preamp but had them made in Japan by
Crown Radio. If I were to have made them here, they would have cost three or
four times more money. Also, I was the only one who did all the alignment of
the Charlie's personally. Even though I wrote out the complete procedure,
the new Sumo owners were to cheap or too lazy to do the proper job. Also,
since this was my first total complete tuner, as opposed to working on units
designed by others, it had a few minor shortcomings. This is what my upgrade
modification remedies. The problem with RF design and modification is that
it takes a whole lot longer to do than working on amps or preamps.
James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Thank you for the information you have been very generous
with you time! My eye will definitely remain open for a Sumo
Charlie! When examining a Charlie for possible purchase is
there any failure to be on the lookout for -- especially
those that cannot be repaired (e.g. proprietary ICs or transistors)?

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote:

Dear Paul,
You are right about the photo with Saul Marantz. Now I remember

that it was

Saul himself that fed that controversy about the IF filters. Notice

that he

refered to the filters as Butterworth OR linear phase.

Unfortunately, Saul

was not an engineer but rather a commercial artist by trade. A case

of foot

in mouth disease for which on occasion, I've suffered from too. To

the best

of my recollection, there was no SAE Mark VI, but rather only a

VIB. When I

got to SAE, the VIB was in the process of being produced however,

they

didn't work. That's what I was originally hired for ie: to get them

fixed

and out the door.
As far as the "Charlie" is concerned, I made 5000 of them and as

far as

specs go, just use the 10B specs with the distortion lowered by a

factor of

5 or 10 times and the S/N ratio bettered by 10 to 15 dB's.
James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Thank you for the information regarding the "Butterworth"
filters! It's always nice to set things straight. In the
book "Vintage Hi-Fi Spotter's Guide Vol 1" there is a copy
of a Marantz advertisement with an "interview" of Saul
Marantz where he states: "we've developed the first commercial
application of the "Butterworth" or phase-linear filter."
Perhaps this is were the misconception came from.

Several references have been made to a SAE VIB. Is that the
SAE VI with the LED readout? Any other changes? How does a
SAE VI compare with an SAE VIB?

What more can you tell us about the Charlie Tuner? I've only
seen a few fuzzy picures. There seems to be nothing on the
internet about it. What are its specifications and abilities?
Does it have similar or better performance specs when compared
to the 10b?

As you may tell, I really like RF and have restored
Collins R-390a and R-392 series of military HF
receivers.

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote:

Dear Paul,
Probably the biggest misconception about the 10B was the term

coined by some

idiot in Marantz marketing. The 10B (and subsequently the 20

DID

NOT use the

"butterworth" configuration for the IF. Many people have been

very

confused

about this over the decades. The 10B used 'LINEAR PHASE

FILTERS'

which are

much better. For the uninitiated, the alignment proceedure is a

nightmare.

You must remember that there was an original "10" of which

there

were about

100 units made and Marantz would like to forget about that as

it

was a sort

of botch. It used torroid ferrites in the IF instead of the pot

cores that

went into the 10B. Anyway, no RF engineer in his right mind

would

use the

"butterworth" configuration for the IF as the phase can never

be

right.

Unfortunately, the SAE used filters (linear phase) but were

sealed

units

from Filtech. Since they were sealed, there were no IF

adjustments.

Fortunately the filters were barely acceptable and held up

pretty

good over

time. However, they were no match for the 10B.Please bear the

following in

mind. There have been only 3 tuners ever made in this world

that

had 18

poles of linear phase filters in the IF: the 10B, the original

Sequerra, and

my "Charlie". This is one of the elements that separates these

three tuners

from all of the rest.
James Bongiorno

Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:

Dear James,

Those performance specs for the 10b are remarkable

(especially

the adjacent figure)! Would the SAE Mk. VI have similar

performance

in this regard? Doesn't the SAE make use of Butterworth

filters

in the IF as does the Marantz? Maybe the filters are used in
a scaled down fashion placing the Mk. 6 performace around

that

of the Marantz 20b?

My offer to anyone of $1000 for a working Marantz 10b still
stands! (and probably will remain standing for a long time!)

:-)

Paul Bigelow

--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...>

wrote:

Dear Paul,
Most people, make that virtually no one, understands the

design

of

the 10B

and this is a fact. Even though the stability of the tuner

is

quite

remarkable over time, it is very critical in its alignment

proceedures.

There are not 5 people in this country who could properly

align

this unit.

If you knew the IF characteristics of the design you would

understand that

closely spaced station interference is practically

impossible

with

this

tuner. Correctly aligned, the ADJACENT channel selectivity

is a

whopping 38

dB's and the alternate channel selectivity is over 100

dB's.

AND

this is in

NARROW BAND which is the only mode that the 10B operates

under.

This is

truly remarkable considering that the 10B makes better

specs

and

performance

in its "narrow" band mode than virtually all other tuners

in

their

wide band

mode.
James Bongiorno

pbigelow@u... wrote:

Hello James,

I have no first hand knowledge of image problems with
the 10b, I have just encountered reports of problems with
the close spaced signals. The 10b's reported on, of

course,

may have needed work or alignment. If I had a properly
restored one, I could answer my own question pretty
quickly.

Anybody out there want to sell me a working Marantz 10b
for $1000? :-)

Paul Bigelow

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lets

you see and manage all of your finances all in one place.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

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here:

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