Dear Paul,
You are right about the photo with Saul Marantz. Now I remember that it was
Saul himself that fed that controversy about the IF filters. Notice that he
refered to the filters as Butterworth OR linear phase. Unfortunately, Saul
was not an engineer but rather a commercial artist by trade. A case of foot
in mouth disease for which on occasion, I've suffered from too. To the best
of my recollection, there was no SAE Mark VI, but rather only a VIB. When I
got to SAE, the VIB was in the process of being produced however, they
didn't work. That's what I was originally hired for ie: to get them fixed
and out the door.
As far as the "Charlie" is concerned, I made 5000 of them and as far as
specs go, just use the 10B specs with the distortion lowered by a factor of
5 or 10 times and the S/N ratio bettered by 10 to 15 dB's.
James Bongiorno
Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Dear James,
Thank you for the information regarding the "Butterworth"
filters! It's always nice to set things straight. In the
book "Vintage Hi-Fi Spotter's Guide Vol 1" there is a copy
of a Marantz advertisement with an "interview" of Saul
Marantz where he states: "we've developed the first commercial
application of the "Butterworth" or phase-linear filter."
Perhaps this is were the misconception came from.
Several references have been made to a SAE VIB. Is that the
SAE VI with the LED readout? Any other changes? How does a
SAE VI compare with an SAE VIB?
What more can you tell us about the Charlie Tuner? I've only
seen a few fuzzy picures. There seems to be nothing on the
internet about it. What are its specifications and abilities?
Does it have similar or better performance specs when compared
to the 10b?
As you may tell, I really like RF and have restored
Collins R-390a and R-392 series of military HF
receivers.
Best regards,
Paul Bigelow
--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote:
Dear Paul,
Probably the biggest misconception about the 10B was the term coined by some
idiot in Marantz marketing. The 10B (and subsequently the 20 DID NOT use the
"butterworth" configuration for the IF. Many people have been very confused
about this over the decades. The 10B used 'LINEAR PHASE FILTERS' which are
much better. For the uninitiated, the alignment proceedure is a nightmare.
You must remember that there was an original "10" of which there were about
100 units made and Marantz would like to forget about that as it was a sort
of botch. It used torroid ferrites in the IF instead of the pot cores that
went into the 10B. Anyway, no RF engineer in his right mind would use the
"butterworth" configuration for the IF as the phase can never be right.
Unfortunately, the SAE used filters (linear phase) but were sealed units
from Filtech. Since they were sealed, there were no IF adjustments.
Fortunately the filters were barely acceptable and held up pretty good over
time. However, they were no match for the 10B.Please bear the following in
mind. There have been only 3 tuners ever made in this world that had 18
poles of linear phase filters in the IF: the 10B, the original Sequerra, and
my "Charlie". This is one of the elements that separates these three tuners
from all of the rest.
James Bongiorno
Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:
Dear James,
Those performance specs for the 10b are remarkable (especially
the adjacent figure)! Would the SAE Mk. VI have similar performance
in this regard? Doesn't the SAE make use of Butterworth filters
in the IF as does the Marantz? Maybe the filters are used in
a scaled down fashion placing the Mk. 6 performace around that
of the Marantz 20b?
My offer to anyone of $1000 for a working Marantz 10b still
stands! (and probably will remain standing for a long time!) :-)
Paul Bigelow
--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote:
Dear Paul,
Most people, make that virtually no one, understands the design
of
the 10B
and this is a fact. Even though the stability of the tuner is
quite
remarkable over time, it is very critical in its alignment proceedures.
There are not 5 people in this country who could properly align this unit.
If you knew the IF characteristics of the design you would understand that
closely spaced station interference is practically impossible
with
this
tuner. Correctly aligned, the ADJACENT channel selectivity is a whopping 38
dB's and the alternate channel selectivity is over 100 dB's.
AND
this is in
NARROW BAND which is the only mode that the 10B operates under. This is
truly remarkable considering that the 10B makes better specs
and
performance
in its "narrow" band mode than virtually all other tuners in
their
wide band
mode.
James Bongiorno
pbigelow@u... wrote:
Hello James,
I have no first hand knowledge of image problems with
the 10b, I have just encountered reports of problems with
the close spaced signals. The 10b's reported on, of course,
may have needed work or alignment. If I had a properly
restored one, I could answer my own question pretty
quickly.
Anybody out there want to sell me a working Marantz 10b
for $1000? :-)
Paul Bigelow
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|
I know this is not about an SAE piece, but since there's
a lot of techies here, I wondered if anyone was
familiar with the modification that can be made to the
Denon 1000F Cd player that makes it boot up
in the continuous play mode by default?
I cannot remember if it's a jumper that you cut, or
a wire that needs to be soldered in.
Thanks.
-=Jeff=-
|
Dear James, Thank you for the information regarding the "Butterworth" filters! It's always nice to set things straight. In the book "Vintage Hi-Fi Spotter's Guide Vol 1" there is a copy of a Marantz advertisement with an "interview" of Saul Marantz where he states: "we've developed the first commercial application of the "Butterworth" or phase-linear filter." Perhaps this is were the misconception came from. Several references have been made to a SAE VIB. Is that the SAE VI with the LED readout? Any other changes? How does a SAE VI compare with an SAE VIB? What more can you tell us about the Charlie Tuner? I've only seen a few fuzzy picures. There seems to be nothing on the internet about it. What are its specifications and abilities? Does it have similar or better performance specs when compared to the 10b? As you may tell, I really like RF and have restored Collins R-390a and R-392 series of military HF receivers. Best regards, Paul Bigelow --- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote: Dear Paul,
Probably the biggest misconception about the 10B was the term coined by some idiot in Marantz marketing. The 10B (and subsequently the 20 DID NOT use the "butterworth" configuration for the IF. Many people have been very confused about this over the decades. The 10B used 'LINEAR PHASE FILTERS' which are much better. For the uninitiated, the alignment proceedure is a nightmare. You must remember that there was an original "10" of which there were about 100 units made and Marantz would like to forget about that as it was a sort of botch. It used torroid ferrites in the IF instead of the pot cores that went into the 10B. Anyway, no RF engineer in his right mind would use the "butterworth" configuration for the IF as the phase can never be right. Unfortunately, the SAE used filters (linear phase) but were sealed units from Filtech. Since they were sealed, there were no IF adjustments.
Fortunately the filters were barely acceptable and held up pretty good over time. However, they were no match for the 10B.Please bear the following in mind. There have been only 3 tuners ever made in this world that had 18 poles of linear phase filters in the IF: the 10B, the original Sequerra, and my "Charlie". This is one of the elements that separates these three tuners from all of the rest.
James Bongiorno
Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:
Dear James,
Those performance specs for the 10b are remarkable (especially
the adjacent figure)! Would the SAE Mk. VI have similar performance in this regard? Doesn't the SAE make use of Butterworth filters
in the IF as does the Marantz? Maybe the filters are used in
a scaled down fashion placing the Mk. 6 performace around that
of the Marantz 20b?
My offer to anyone of $1000 for a working Marantz 10b still
stands! (and probably will remain standing for a long time!) :-)
Paul Bigelow
--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote:
Dear Paul,
Most people, make that virtually no one, understands the design
of the 10B
and this is a fact. Even though the stability of the tuner is
quite remarkable over time, it is very critical in its alignment proceedures.
There are not 5 people in this country who could properly align this unit.
If you knew the IF characteristics of the design you would understand that
closely spaced station interference is practically impossible
with this
tuner. Correctly aligned, the ADJACENT channel selectivity is a whopping 38
dB's and the alternate channel selectivity is over 100 dB's.
AND this is in
NARROW BAND which is the only mode that the 10B operates under. This is
truly remarkable considering that the 10B makes better specs
and performance
in its "narrow" band mode than virtually all other tuners in
their wide band
mode.
James Bongiorno
pbigelow@u... wrote:
Hello James,
I have no first hand knowledge of image problems with
the 10b, I have just encountered reports of problems with
the close spaced signals. The 10b's reported on, of course,
may have needed work or alignment. If I had a properly
restored one, I could answer my own question pretty
quickly.
Anybody out there want to sell me a working Marantz 10b
for $1000? :-)
Paul Bigelow
--------------------------------------------------------------------- ---
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already registered, there's a good chance you'll find him here:
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|
Dear Paul,
It is truly amazing that anyone in their right mind would sell a Thaedra for
$175. If I see one I'll buy it. The technology that went into that unit was
ahead of its time and is still viable even today. The sad truth is that if I
had to make that unit today with all of today's cost structure, if would
have to retail for around $10,000 to $15000.
James Bongiorno
Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Dear James,
Thank you for the response. The upgrade is being considered.
In my post, I was just indicating that, even today, without
modification, the Thaedra is a great performer. If anybody
finds one -- grab it!
Paul Bigelow
--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote:
Dear Paul,
There were approximately 3000 Thaedras made and yes you are right about the
serial number sequence. The only two face plates that were made were the
white, which is my doing, and the normal black. There was never a silver or
a gold plated unit.
If you are happy with the performance of your unit then fine. But when I get
done upgrading a Thaedra, the improvements are significant in all areas.
James Bongiorno
Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:
Dear James,
The Thaedra was a lucky find. I happened to walk
into a local stereo repair shop and there it was,
just begging for a nice home!
Because of the sloppy repair job that had been
done to it previously the boards were checked
for bad/cold solder joints. It is holding up
quite nicely.
The quiet phono preamp is real joy -- very
detailed and no annoyances like background
hum or hiss. Since headphones are used for
most of the listening, I'm real sensitive to
those kind of distractions. Plus, it has tone
controls! An audiophile preamp just cannot be
found with tone controls these days. The Thaedra's
are tastefully done and work well. Most of my
music listening comes from the 50's and 60's
so the tone controls are a significant feature
for me.
Approximately how many Thaedras were manufactured?
I have only seen one other. The hand etched serial
number on mine is A301517 -- does that mean the
1517th Thaedra?
Finally, was there ever a silver-faced Thaedra?
It seems I can recall a photograph (maybe in a
GAS-ETTE) of one.
Best regards,
Paul Bigelow
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---
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alumni
already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance
you'll
find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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|
Dear Paul,
Probably the biggest misconception about the 10B was the term coined by some
idiot in Marantz marketing. The 10B (and subsequently the 20 DID NOT use the
"butterworth" configuration for the IF. Many people have been very confused
about this over the decades. The 10B used 'LINEAR PHASE FILTERS' which are
much better. For the uninitiated, the alignment proceedure is a nightmare.
You must remember that there was an original "10" of which there were about
100 units made and Marantz would like to forget about that as it was a sort
of botch. It used torroid ferrites in the IF instead of the pot cores that
went into the 10B. Anyway, no RF engineer in his right mind would use the
"butterworth" configuration for the IF as the phase can never be right.
Unfortunately, the SAE used filters (linear phase) but were sealed units
from Filtech. Since they were sealed, there were no IF adjustments.
Fortunately the filters were barely acceptable and held up pretty good over
time. However, they were no match for the 10B.Please bear the following in
mind. There have been only 3 tuners ever made in this world that had 18
poles of linear phase filters in the IF: the 10B, the original Sequerra, and
my "Charlie". This is one of the elements that separates these three tuners
from all of the rest.
James Bongiorno
Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Dear James,
Those performance specs for the 10b are remarkable (especially
the adjacent figure)! Would the SAE Mk. VI have similar performance
in this regard? Doesn't the SAE make use of Butterworth filters
in the IF as does the Marantz? Maybe the filters are used in
a scaled down fashion placing the Mk. 6 performace around that
of the Marantz 20b?
My offer to anyone of $1000 for a working Marantz 10b still
stands! (and probably will remain standing for a long time!) :-)
Paul Bigelow
--- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote:
Dear Paul,
Most people, make that virtually no one, understands the design of the 10B
and this is a fact. Even though the stability of the tuner is quite
remarkable over time, it is very critical in its alignment proceedures.
There are not 5 people in this country who could properly align this unit.
If you knew the IF characteristics of the design you would understand that
closely spaced station interference is practically impossible with this
tuner. Correctly aligned, the ADJACENT channel selectivity is a whopping 38
dB's and the alternate channel selectivity is over 100 dB's. AND this is in
NARROW BAND which is the only mode that the 10B operates under. This is
truly remarkable considering that the 10B makes better specs and performance
in its "narrow" band mode than virtually all other tuners in their wide band
mode.
James Bongiorno
pbigelow@u... wrote:
Hello James,
I have no first hand knowledge of image problems with
the 10b, I have just encountered reports of problems with
the close spaced signals. The 10b's reported on, of course,
may have needed work or alignment. If I had a properly
restored one, I could answer my own question pretty
quickly.
Anybody out there want to sell me a working Marantz 10b
for $1000? :-)
Paul Bigelow
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---
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lets
you see and manage all of your finances all in one place.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
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your online high school class reunion. With 4.4 million alumni
already registered, there's a good chance you'll find him here:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|
Dear James, Those performance specs for the 10b are remarkable (especially the adjacent figure)! Would the SAE Mk. VI have similar performance in this regard? Doesn't the SAE make use of Butterworth filters in the IF as does the Marantz? Maybe the filters are used in a scaled down fashion placing the Mk. 6 performace around that of the Marantz 20b? My offer to anyone of $1000 for a working Marantz 10b still stands! (and probably will remain standing for a long time!) :-) Paul Bigelow --- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote: Dear Paul,
Most people, make that virtually no one, understands the design of the 10B and this is a fact. Even though the stability of the tuner is quite
remarkable over time, it is very critical in its alignment proceedures. There are not 5 people in this country who could properly align this unit. If you knew the IF characteristics of the design you would understand that closely spaced station interference is practically impossible with this tuner. Correctly aligned, the ADJACENT channel selectivity is a whopping 38 dB's and the alternate channel selectivity is over 100 dB's. AND this is in NARROW BAND which is the only mode that the 10B operates under. This is truly remarkable considering that the 10B makes better specs and performance in its "narrow" band mode than virtually all other tuners in their wide band mode.
James Bongiorno
pbigelow@u... wrote:
Hello James,
I have no first hand knowledge of image problems with
the 10b, I have just encountered reports of problems with
the close spaced signals. The 10b's reported on, of course,
may have needed work or alignment. If I had a properly
restored one, I could answer my own question pretty
quickly.
Anybody out there want to sell me a working Marantz 10b
for $1000? :-)
Paul Bigelow
--------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Get your money connected @ OnMoney.com - the first Web site that
lets you see and manage all of your finances all in one place.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- ---
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Post message: SAE_Talk@...
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|
Dear James, Thank you for the response. The upgrade is being considered. In my post, I was just indicating that, even today, without modification, the Thaedra is a great performer. If anybody finds one -- grab it! Paul Bigelow --- In SAE_Talk@..., James Bongiorno <sstinc@e...> wrote: Dear Paul,
There were approximately 3000 Thaedras made and yes you are right about the serial number sequence. The only two face plates that were made were the white, which is my doing, and the normal black. There was never a silver or a gold plated unit.
If you are happy with the performance of your unit then fine. But when I get done upgrading a Thaedra, the improvements are significant in all areas. James Bongiorno
Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:
Dear James,
The Thaedra was a lucky find. I happened to walk
into a local stereo repair shop and there it was,
just begging for a nice home!
Because of the sloppy repair job that had been
done to it previously the boards were checked
for bad/cold solder joints. It is holding up
quite nicely.
The quiet phono preamp is real joy -- very
detailed and no annoyances like background
hum or hiss. Since headphones are used for
most of the listening, I'm real sensitive to
those kind of distractions. Plus, it has tone
controls! An audiophile preamp just cannot be
found with tone controls these days. The Thaedra's
are tastefully done and work well. Most of my
music listening comes from the 50's and 60's
so the tone controls are a significant feature
for me.
Approximately how many Thaedras were manufactured?
I have only seen one other. The hand etched serial
number on mine is A301517 -- does that mean the
1517th Thaedra?
Finally, was there ever a silver-faced Thaedra?
It seems I can recall a photograph (maybe in a
GAS-ETTE) of one.
Best regards,
Paul Bigelow
--------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million
alumni already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance
you'll find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at:
--------------------------------------------------------------------- ---
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|
Dear Paul,
There were approximately 3000 Thaedras made and yes you are right about the
serial number sequence. The only two face plates that were made were the
white, which is my doing, and the normal black. There was never a silver or
a gold plated unit.
If you are happy with the performance of your unit then fine. But when I get
done upgrading a Thaedra, the improvements are significant in all areas.
James Bongiorno
Paul Anthony Bigelow wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Dear James,
The Thaedra was a lucky find. I happened to walk
into a local stereo repair shop and there it was,
just begging for a nice home!
Because of the sloppy repair job that had been
done to it previously the boards were checked
for bad/cold solder joints. It is holding up
quite nicely.
The quiet phono preamp is real joy -- very
detailed and no annoyances like background
hum or hiss. Since headphones are used for
most of the listening, I'm real sensitive to
those kind of distractions. Plus, it has tone
controls! An audiophile preamp just cannot be
found with tone controls these days. The Thaedra's
are tastefully done and work well. Most of my
music listening comes from the 50's and 60's
so the tone controls are a significant feature
for me.
Approximately how many Thaedras were manufactured?
I have only seen one other. The hand etched serial
number on mine is A301517 -- does that mean the
1517th Thaedra?
Finally, was there ever a silver-faced Thaedra?
It seems I can recall a photograph (maybe in a
GAS-ETTE) of one.
Best regards,
Paul Bigelow
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll
find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|
Dear Paul,
Most people, make that virtually no one, understands the design of the 10B
and this is a fact. Even though the stability of the tuner is quite
remarkable over time, it is very critical in its alignment proceedures.
There are not 5 people in this country who could properly align this unit.
If you knew the IF characteristics of the design you would understand that
closely spaced station interference is practically impossible with this
tuner. Correctly aligned, the ADJACENT channel selectivity is a whopping 38
dB's and the alternate channel selectivity is over 100 dB's. AND this is in
NARROW BAND which is the only mode that the 10B operates under. This is
truly remarkable considering that the 10B makes better specs and performance
in its "narrow" band mode than virtually all other tuners in their wide band
mode.
James Bongiorno
pbigelow@... wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hello James,
I have no first hand knowledge of image problems with
the 10b, I have just encountered reports of problems with
the close spaced signals. The 10b's reported on, of course,
may have needed work or alignment. If I had a properly
restored one, I could answer my own question pretty
quickly.
Anybody out there want to sell me a working Marantz 10b
for $1000? :-)
Paul Bigelow
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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you see and manage all of your finances all in one place.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Community email addresses:
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|
Dear James,
The Thaedra was a lucky find. I happened to walk
into a local stereo repair shop and there it was,
just begging for a nice home!
Because of the sloppy repair job that had been
done to it previously the boards were checked
for bad/cold solder joints. It is holding up
quite nicely.
The quiet phono preamp is real joy -- very
detailed and no annoyances like background
hum or hiss. Since headphones are used for
most of the listening, I'm real sensitive to
those kind of distractions. Plus, it has tone
controls! An audiophile preamp just cannot be
found with tone controls these days. The Thaedra's
are tastefully done and work well. Most of my
music listening comes from the 50's and 60's
so the tone controls are a significant feature
for me.
Approximately how many Thaedras were manufactured?
I have only seen one other. The hand etched serial
number on mine is A301517 -- does that mean the
1517th Thaedra?
Finally, was there ever a silver-faced Thaedra?
It seems I can recall a photograph (maybe in a
GAS-ETTE) of one.
Best regards,
Paul Bigelow
|
hello, can anyone tell me what the crossover frequency and slope of the high pass inputs of this amp are? does anyone have a manual they would be willing to send a copy of?
i will pay for the cost, naturally! Thanks to all. Tony.
|
Hello James,
I have no first hand knowledge of image problems with
the 10b, I have just encountered reports of problems with
the close spaced signals. The 10b's reported on, of course,
may have needed work or alignment. If I had a properly
restored one, I could answer my own question pretty
quickly.
Anybody out there want to sell me a working Marantz 10b
for $1000? :-)
Paul Bigelow
|
Re: GAS Thedra / SAE Mk. 1
Dear Paul,
Regarding your obtaining a Thaedra for $150, that has to be the steal of the
century.I would recommend that at some point, you consider refurbishing the
unit. The improvements are very real. I know it sounds expensive ($1375-June
1 price) however, consider what you would have to pay for a preamp in the
new market today and you get NO features for megabucks. Think about it.
James Bongiorno
pbigelow@... wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hello James,
Well, despite the SAE tuner price saga, the Thaedra has
no sordid tale -- it was picked up (with manual) for $150.
The exterior condition was teriffic. All lettering was
good, no scratches, just a little oxidation of the plated
exterior (easily corrected). It did appear that a little
sloppy repair work had been done to it (the heat
sinked transistors) but that was corrected promptly.
The higher wattage resistors (hot) around that area
were matched, replaced and mounted by me just
above the board to prevent the board from getting
burned further (just starting to set in) and carbonizing.
It's been a happy preamp ever since!
Best regards,
Paul Bigelow
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Dear Paul,
It seems that you've done your homework. Your final selection probably sounds
best for you. You are dead wrong about the 10B reception problems. I suspect
that for some reason, somehow they have been tinkered with vis-a-vis the
alignment. The alignment on the 10B is critical however, after itis done
properly, there just "ain't" no comparison. Unfortunately you are right about
the price. I wouldn't sell mine for any amount of money.The SAE Mard VIB is
probably your best choice. Go for it and I'll tune it up for you properly. Good
luck.
James Bongiorno
pbigelow@... wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hello James,
Thank you for the feedback and advise. You're right,
$600 isn't cheap -- but I havn't seen one for less than
that. I tried looking for a Marantz 10b and couldn't find
one for less than $2000. Add refurbishment and tubes
and now it's up to $2500+. Somehow, I just cannot justify
to myself spending $2500 for an FM sound source. The
10b has crossed the threshold into "valuable collectible" so
the price is just going up, up, up. Even though *I* know that
hundreds of dollars more will be needed to bring the 10b up
to spec, the sellers do not consider this factor because of
market demand.
Unless you have a "sleeper" tube tuner recommendation,
that leaves solid-state. Tried looking for a SUMO Charlie --
t would go great with the Thaedra -- couldn't find one. The
solid-state McIntosh tuners are getting pricey -- the MR-73
go for about $400-500 and the MR-80 goes for around $1000
or more.
My wants:
1. Great RF
2. Great Sound
3. Scope display
RF and Sound:
The McIntosh's have pretty good RF performace but the
sound doesn't impress me. I hear that the 70's Marantz
scope tuners are not particularly good either RF-wise or
sound wise but I have no experience except for a Marantz
2110 picked up REAL cheap ($25) just to have fun with
(DREADFUL RF, but the sound isn't too bad after audio
path capacitors have been replaced).
I have heard that even the 10b has problems with close
spaced signal dynamic range causing images throughout
the tuning range. Austin, TX has a lot of strong local FM
broadcasters and images are are a problem.
Scope:
I do have a McIntosh MI-3 so that is why McIntosh tuners
(or any tuner with scope outputs -- which the Charlie has,
I believe) The Theadra preamp has scope outputs (thank you)
as does my Yamaha T2. The SAE Mk. VI fits the bill here as
do several Marantz solid state tuners.
What's left? The SAE Mark VI? Although it doesn't do
everything BEST, it, at least, does everything (my wants)
pretty good and better than the solid state Marantz's.
Any thoughts to add? Maybe I need to approach all this
from another angle?
Best regards,
Paul Bigelow
James Bongiorno <sstinc@...> on 04/20/2000 06:30:04 pm
Please respond to SAE_Talk@...
To: SAE_Talk@...
cc:
Subject: Re: [SAE_Talk] SAE Mk VI Tuner
Dear Paul,
I do believe that $600 is a bit much for the SAE Mark VI tuner. It doesn't
matter what condition its in because it will need to be refurbished or at
the
least completely realigned. Use your best judgemnent but don't spend that
much.
As far as performance goes, my assessments are ALWAYS with both performance
AND
sound quality. I have a rule that I follow. If it isn't working right, it
can't
possible sound right. I know that I'll hear it from all of the single ended
tube fanatics on this one but I CAN hear the difference.
A refurbish involves generally major surgery on most or a least a lot of
parts
bringing them up to todays high parts quality standards. I take my time and
you
should allow at least a month. Tuners are harder to work on than amps and
preamps because it is imperative that they remain stable and don't drift.
James Bongiorno
P.S. I am speculating but I think that you should look forward to spending
at
least another $400 to $500 bucks on the tuner. That's why you shouldn't pay
that much for it in the first place.
pbigelow@... wrote:
Hello James,
Thank you for the response! I'm not paying an arm AND a leg for the Mark
VI
(just an arm) $600 -- too much? It is in EXCELLENT condition.
As far are the performance goes is your evaluation based on sound quality
or RF performance or a mix of both? I may consider your offer for a
refurbish.
Based upon past experience what does a refurbish entail and how long
does it take?
Best regards,
Paul Bigelow
James Bongiorno <sstinc@...> on 04/20/2000 12:28:53 pm
Please respond to SAE_Talk@...
To: SAE_Talk@...
cc:
Subject: Re: [SAE_Talk] SAE Mk VI Tuner
Dear Paul,
I will tryto answer your questions. Please understand that I do NOT
recommend having anyone but the highest professional engineer work on a
tuner. Trust me when I say that not only most technicians but also most
engineers really don't have a clue as to what's going on in an FM tuner.
And
if that's not bad enough, hardly any of them have a truly sophisticated
laboratory with ALL of the proper test equipment.
As far as the Mark VI SAE tuner goes, it is a decent performer
however,
it is not in the league of the Marantz 10B or my Charlie or the Sequerra
Tuner (the original one that is). I would place its performance in the area
of the MR78. Please understand that more so than any other piece of audio
equipment, tuners steadily degrade over time for a lot of reasons which I
will not get into here. A tuner this old desperately needs to be
refurbished
and if nothing else, properly realigned. The scope tube probably will last
a
long, long time. The nixies do go out on occasion of which I have a small
supply. My strong recommendation is that you send this unit to me for
refubishing. Please let me know if you are so inclined and we can discuss
this further. If you aren't paying an arm and a leg, the SAE Mark VI can be
a very nice tuner again.
James Bongiorno
pbigelow@... wrote:
Hello,
I am about to become an owner of an SAE Mk, VI tuner.
Are there any recommended modifications or upgrades
to this tuner to improve performace or reliability (especially
to protect the scope and nixies)?
Does anyone have schematics or service information?
How does this tuner perform against the other "heavyweight"
tuners -- McIntohsh MR-78, Fisher FM-1000, Marantz 10B,
SUMO Charlie, Accuphase T-100, Yamaha CT-7000, etc.
I would reallly appreciate any thoughts or opinions on this
tuner!
Best regards,
Paul Bigelow
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
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already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll
find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Community email addresses:
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List owner: SAE_Talk-owner@...
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Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already
registered, there's a good chance you'll find your friends here:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Community email addresses:
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your online high school class reunion. With 4.4 million alumni
already registered, there's a good chance you'll find him here:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: GAS Thedra / SAE Mk. 1
Hello James,
Well, despite the SAE tuner price saga, the Thaedra has
no sordid tale -- it was picked up (with manual) for $150.
The exterior condition was teriffic. All lettering was
good, no scratches, just a little oxidation of the plated
exterior (easily corrected). It did appear that a little
sloppy repair work had been done to it (the heat
sinked transistors) but that was corrected promptly.
The higher wattage resistors (hot) around that area
were matched, replaced and mounted by me just
above the board to prevent the board from getting
burned further (just starting to set in) and carbonizing.
It's been a happy preamp ever since!
Best regards,
Paul Bigelow
|
Hello James, Thank you for the feedback and advise. You're right, $600 isn't cheap -- but I havn't seen one for less than that. I tried looking for a Marantz 10b and couldn't find one for less than $2000. Add refurbishment and tubes and now it's up to $2500+. Somehow, I just cannot justify to myself spending $2500 for an FM sound source. The 10b has crossed the threshold into "valuable collectible" so the price is just going up, up, up. Even though *I* know that hundreds of dollars more will be needed to bring the 10b up to spec, the sellers do not consider this factor because of market demand. Unless you have a "sleeper" tube tuner recommendation, that leaves solid-state. Tried looking for a SUMO Charlie -- t would go great with the Thaedra -- couldn't find one. The solid-state McIntosh tuners are getting pricey -- the MR-73 go for about $400-500 and the MR-80 goes for around $1000 or more. My wants: 1. Great RF 2. Great Sound 3. Scope display RF and Sound: The McIntosh's have pretty good RF performace but the sound doesn't impress me. I hear that the 70's Marantz scope tuners are not particularly good either RF-wise or sound wise but I have no experience except for a Marantz 2110 picked up REAL cheap ($25) just to have fun with (DREADFUL RF, but the sound isn't too bad after audio path capacitors have been replaced). I have heard that even the 10b has problems with close spaced signal dynamic range causing images throughout the tuning range. Austin, TX has a lot of strong local FM broadcasters and images are are a problem. Scope: I do have a McIntosh MI-3 so that is why McIntosh tuners (or any tuner with scope outputs -- which the Charlie has, I believe) The Theadra preamp has scope outputs (thank you) as does my Yamaha T2. The SAE Mk. VI fits the bill here as do several Marantz solid state tuners. What's left? The SAE Mark VI? Although it doesn't do everything BEST, it, at least, does everything (my wants) pretty good and better than the solid state Marantz's. Any thoughts to add? Maybe I need to approach all this from another angle? Best regards, Paul Bigelow James Bongiorno <sstinc@...> on 04/20/2000 06:30:04 pm Please respond to SAE_Talk@... To: SAE_Talk@... cc: Subject: Re: [SAE_Talk] SAE Mk VI Tuner Dear Paul, I do believe that $600 is a bit much for the SAE Mark VI tuner. It doesn't matter what condition its in because it will need to be refurbished or at the least completely realigned. Use your best judgemnent but don't spend that much. As far as performance goes, my assessments are ALWAYS with both performance AND sound quality. I have a rule that I follow. If it isn't working right, it can't possible sound right. I know that I'll hear it from all of the single ended tube fanatics on this one but I CAN hear the difference. A refurbish involves generally major surgery on most or a least a lot of parts bringing them up to todays high parts quality standards. I take my time and you should allow at least a month. Tuners are harder to work on than amps and preamps because it is imperative that they remain stable and don't drift. James Bongiorno P.S. I am speculating but I think that you should look forward to spending at least another $400 to $500 bucks on the tuner. That's why you shouldn't pay that much for it in the first place. pbigelow@... wrote: Hello James,
Thank you for the response! I'm not paying an arm AND a leg for the Mark
VI
(just an arm) $600 -- too much? It is in EXCELLENT condition.
As far are the performance goes is your evaluation based on sound quality
or RF performance or a mix of both? I may consider your offer for a
refurbish.
Based upon past experience what does a refurbish entail and how long
does it take?
Best regards,
Paul Bigelow
James Bongiorno <sstinc@...> on 04/20/2000 12:28:53 pm
Please respond to SAE_Talk@...
To: SAE_Talk@...
cc:
Subject: Re: [SAE_Talk] SAE Mk VI Tuner
Dear Paul,
I will tryto answer your questions. Please understand that I do NOT
recommend having anyone but the highest professional engineer work on a
tuner. Trust me when I say that not only most technicians but also most
engineers really don't have a clue as to what's going on in an FM tuner.
And
if that's not bad enough, hardly any of them have a truly sophisticated
laboratory with ALL of the proper test equipment.
As far as the Mark VI SAE tuner goes, it is a decent performer
however,
it is not in the league of the Marantz 10B or my Charlie or the Sequerra
Tuner (the original one that is). I would place its performance in the area of the MR78. Please understand that more so than any other piece of audio
equipment, tuners steadily degrade over time for a lot of reasons which I
will not get into here. A tuner this old desperately needs to be
refurbished
and if nothing else, properly realigned. The scope tube probably will last a
long, long time. The nixies do go out on occasion of which I have a small
supply. My strong recommendation is that you send this unit to me for
refubishing. Please let me know if you are so inclined and we can discuss
this further. If you aren't paying an arm and a leg, the SAE Mark VI can be a very nice tuner again.
James Bongiorno
pbigelow@... wrote:
Hello,
I am about to become an owner of an SAE Mk, VI tuner.
Are there any recommended modifications or upgrades
to this tuner to improve performace or reliability (especially
to protect the scope and nixies)?
Does anyone have schematics or service information?
How does this tuner perform against the other "heavyweight"
tuners -- McIntohsh MR-78, Fisher FM-1000, Marantz 10B,
SUMO Charlie, Accuphase T-100, Yamaha CT-7000, etc.
I would reallly appreciate any thoughts or opinions on this
tuner!
Best regards,
Paul Bigelow
------------------------------------------------------------------------ Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million alumni
already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll
find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Community email addresses:
Post message: SAE_Talk@...
Subscribe: SAE_Talk-subscribe@...
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find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------------ Good friends, school spirit, hair-dos you'd like to forget. Classmates.com has them all. And with 4.4 million alumni already registered, there's a good chance you'll find your friends here: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Community email addresses: Post message: SAE_Talk@... Subscribe: SAE_Talk-subscribe@... Unsubscribe: SAE_Talk-unsubscribe@... List owner: SAE_Talk-owner@... Shortcut URL to this page:
|
Dear Thomas,
Finding a cover for a 2400 which is about 25 years old, might be impossible.
You can check with Gale at ATI (323 278-0001) the successor company to SAE.
She might be able to help as there are a lot of parts there. But don't hold
your breath. The best way is to make drawing and find a local inexpensive
machine shop and have one made and then anodized. That's the best that I can
tell you
James Bongiorno
allergy@... wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Sorry to bother again but I was wondering if anyone had a source
where
I might be able to obtain a cover for the 2400L that I have. It was
inhereted by me without a cover and needs one badly. Any suggestions?
Thanks
Thomas Shen
allergy@...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|
Dear Paul,
I do believe that $600 is a bit much for the SAE Mark VI tuner. It doesn't
matter what condition its in because it will need to be refurbished or at the
least completely realigned. Use your best judgemnent but don't spend that much.
As far as performance goes, my assessments are ALWAYS with both performance AND
sound quality. I have a rule that I follow. If it isn't working right, it can't
possible sound right. I know that I'll hear it from all of the single ended
tube fanatics on this one but I CAN hear the difference.
A refurbish involves generally major surgery on most or a least a lot of parts
bringing them up to todays high parts quality standards. I take my time and you
should allow at least a month. Tuners are harder to work on than amps and
preamps because it is imperative that they remain stable and don't drift.
James Bongiorno
P.S. I am speculating but I think that you should look forward to spending at
least another $400 to $500 bucks on the tuner. That's why you shouldn't pay
that much for it in the first place.
pbigelow@... wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Hello James,
Thank you for the response! I'm not paying an arm AND a leg for the Mark
VI
(just an arm) $600 -- too much? It is in EXCELLENT condition.
As far are the performance goes is your evaluation based on sound quality
or RF performance or a mix of both? I may consider your offer for a
refurbish.
Based upon past experience what does a refurbish entail and how long
does it take?
Best regards,
Paul Bigelow
James Bongiorno <sstinc@...> on 04/20/2000 12:28:53 pm
Please respond to SAE_Talk@...
To: SAE_Talk@...
cc:
Subject: Re: [SAE_Talk] SAE Mk VI Tuner
Dear Paul,
I will tryto answer your questions. Please understand that I do NOT
recommend having anyone but the highest professional engineer work on a
tuner. Trust me when I say that not only most technicians but also most
engineers really don't have a clue as to what's going on in an FM tuner.
And
if that's not bad enough, hardly any of them have a truly sophisticated
laboratory with ALL of the proper test equipment.
As far as the Mark VI SAE tuner goes, it is a decent performer
however,
it is not in the league of the Marantz 10B or my Charlie or the Sequerra
Tuner (the original one that is). I would place its performance in the area
of the MR78. Please understand that more so than any other piece of audio
equipment, tuners steadily degrade over time for a lot of reasons which I
will not get into here. A tuner this old desperately needs to be
refurbished
and if nothing else, properly realigned. The scope tube probably will last
a
long, long time. The nixies do go out on occasion of which I have a small
supply. My strong recommendation is that you send this unit to me for
refubishing. Please let me know if you are so inclined and we can discuss
this further. If you aren't paying an arm and a leg, the SAE Mark VI can be
a very nice tuner again.
James Bongiorno
pbigelow@... wrote:
Hello,
I am about to become an owner of an SAE Mk, VI tuner.
Are there any recommended modifications or upgrades
to this tuner to improve performace or reliability (especially
to protect the scope and nixies)?
Does anyone have schematics or service information?
How does this tuner perform against the other "heavyweight"
tuners -- McIntohsh MR-78, Fisher FM-1000, Marantz 10B,
SUMO Charlie, Accuphase T-100, Yamaha CT-7000, etc.
I would reallly appreciate any thoughts or opinions on this
tuner!
Best regards,
Paul Bigelow
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million alumni
already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll
find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Community email addresses:
Post message: SAE_Talk@...
Subscribe: SAE_Talk-subscribe@...
Unsubscribe: SAE_Talk-unsubscribe@...
List owner: SAE_Talk-owner@...
Shortcut URL to this page:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get paid while you shop!
You also get an additional 10% off on retailers
like--Disney.com, eCost.com, FogDog.com and more.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Subscribe: SAE_Talk-subscribe@...
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List owner: SAE_Talk-owner@...
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find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|
Sorry to bother again but I was wondering if anyone had a source
where
I might be able to obtain a cover for the 2400L that I have. It was
inhereted by me without a cover and needs one badly. Any suggestions?
Thanks
Thomas Shen
allergy@...
|
Hello James, Thank you for the response! I'm not paying an arm AND a leg for the Mark VI (just an arm) $600 -- too much? It is in EXCELLENT condition. As far are the performance goes is your evaluation based on sound quality or RF performance or a mix of both? I may consider your offer for a refurbish. Based upon past experience what does a refurbish entail and how long does it take? Best regards, Paul Bigelow James Bongiorno <sstinc@...> on 04/20/2000 12:28:53 pm Please respond to SAE_Talk@... To: SAE_Talk@... cc: Subject: Re: [SAE_Talk] SAE Mk VI Tuner Dear Paul, I will tryto answer your questions. Please understand that I do NOT recommend having anyone but the highest professional engineer work on a tuner. Trust me when I say that not only most technicians but also most engineers really don't have a clue as to what's going on in an FM tuner. And if that's not bad enough, hardly any of them have a truly sophisticated laboratory with ALL of the proper test equipment. As far as the Mark VI SAE tuner goes, it is a decent performer however, it is not in the league of the Marantz 10B or my Charlie or the Sequerra Tuner (the original one that is). I would place its performance in the area of the MR78. Please understand that more so than any other piece of audio equipment, tuners steadily degrade over time for a lot of reasons which I will not get into here. A tuner this old desperately needs to be refurbished and if nothing else, properly realigned. The scope tube probably will last a long, long time. The nixies do go out on occasion of which I have a small supply. My strong recommendation is that you send this unit to me for refubishing. Please let me know if you are so inclined and we can discuss this further. If you aren't paying an arm and a leg, the SAE Mark VI can be a very nice tuner again. James Bongiorno pbigelow@... wrote: Hello,
I am about to become an owner of an SAE Mk, VI tuner.
Are there any recommended modifications or upgrades
to this tuner to improve performace or reliability (especially
to protect the scope and nixies)?
Does anyone have schematics or service information?
How does this tuner perform against the other "heavyweight"
tuners -- McIntohsh MR-78, Fisher FM-1000, Marantz 10B,
SUMO Charlie, Accuphase T-100, Yamaha CT-7000, etc.
I would reallly appreciate any thoughts or opinions on this
tuner!
Best regards,
Paul Bigelow
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your high school sweetheart-where is he now? With 4.4 million alumni
already registered at Classmates.com, there's a good chance you'll
find her here. Visit your online high school class reunion at:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Community email addresses:
Post message: SAE_Talk@...
Subscribe: SAE_Talk-subscribe@...
Unsubscribe: SAE_Talk-unsubscribe@...
List owner: SAE_Talk-owner@...
Shortcut URL to this page:
------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get paid while you shop! You also get an additional 10% off on retailers like--Disney.com, eCost.com, FogDog.com and more. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Community email addresses: Post message: SAE_Talk@... Subscribe: SAE_Talk-subscribe@... Unsubscribe: SAE_Talk-unsubscribe@... List owner: SAE_Talk-owner@... Shortcut URL to this page:
|
