Hello Jesse
Try Orange County on this website. I believe there is a packing house served by both ATSF and SP but I don't remember the location.?? ??
Regards, David Coscia
Hello my name is jesse and I grew up in Southern California in Anaheim then lake forest. And since I grew up in that area I learned and loved the history of the orange groves and also the railroads that worked in Southern California.? So me I love the Southern Pacific and the Santa Fe.? So with my layout I want to show the citrus industry on it. I model in Ho scale.? So my question I need help with is was there a area in Southern California where the SP and the ATSF both worked in the citrus industry? Like one place that served both railroads?
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Prior to August 1965 there were lines operated by the Southern Pacific and the Pacific Electric, which the SP controlled from 1911. The Pacific Electric was merged into the SP in 1965 and all the track of the railroads were operated as the SP.
The Santa Fe served town and station that were served by the SP or PE in many citrus producing places east of Los Angeles. In some area they might be indifferent parts of the town or next to each other, in some case they served the same packing house.
Here are some places served by the Santa Fe and SP: Santa Ana, Anaheim, Tustin, Pomona, Riverside, Highgrove, Redlands.
Santa Fe and PE: Orange, Fullerton, Sunny Hills, San Dimas, Lamanda Park, Azusa, Glendora, La Verne, Claremont, Upland, Rialto, Corona, Redlands and Highland.
Perhaps some more?
Locations where two RR served a packing house: Orange, Sunny Hills, San Dimas, Glendora, Claremont, Upland, Corona, Riverside, Redlands, Rialto and Highland.
cliff prather
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Hello my name is jesse and I grew up in Southern California in Anaheim then lake forest. And since I grew up in that area I learned and loved the history of the orange groves and also the railroads that worked in Southern California. ?So me I love the Southern Pacific and the Santa Fe. ?So with my layout I want to show the citrus industry on it. I model in Ho scale. ?So my question I need help with is was there a area in Southern California where the SP and the ATSF both worked in the citrus industry? Like one place that served both railroads?
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REMINDER: This Group Is Going To Groups.io
REMINDER: This Group Is Going To Groups.io
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You may have seen the notice below from Yahoo.
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I already have plans for moving the content (messages, files
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As part of that move all members of this Yahoo group
automatically will become members of the Railroad Citrus Industry Modeling
Group on Groups.io. If you are a member
of both groups I recommend you delete your membership in the Yahoo version of
this groups to avoid having two memberships in the Groups.io version.
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Bob Chaparro
Moderator
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Understand what's
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Yahoo has made the decision to no longer allow users to
upload content to the Yahoo Groups site. Beginning October 21, you won't be
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On October 21st, you will no longer be able to upload any
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Orange Crate Labels On Crates
Orange Crate Labels On Crates
Images from the Smithsonian Institution.
Some of these are from Southern California
Bob Chaparro
Moderator
|
Orange Crate Labels On Crates
Orange Crate Labels On Crates
Images from the Smithsonian Institution.
Some of these are from Southern
California
Bob Chaparro
Moderator
|
Future Of Our Group
?
You may have seen the notice below from Yahoo.
?
I already have plans for moving the content (messages, files
and photos) of our Yahoo group to the Groups.io version of this group so it is
not necessary for you to save the Yahoo content.
?
As part of that move all members of this Yahoo group
automatically will become members of the Railroad Citrus Industry Modeling
Group on Groups.io. If you are a member of both groups I recommend you delete
your membership in the Yahoo version of this groups to avoid having two
memberships in the Groups.io version.
?
Bob Chaparro
Moderator
++++
Understand what's
changing in Yahoo Groups
Yahoo has made the decision to no longer allow users to
upload content to the Yahoo Groups site. Beginning October 21, you won't be
able to upload any more content to the site, and as of December 14 all
previously posted content on the site will be permanently removed. You'll have
until that date to save anything you've uploaded.
?
What features will go
away?
?Files
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?Database
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?
What will happen to
the site?
The Yahoo Groups site will continue to exist, however, all
public groups will be made private or restricted. Any new group members will
need to request an invite or be invited by an admin. Admins will still be able
to manage various group settings, though some functionality will be limited.
?
What will happen on
October 21st?
On October 21st, you will no longer be able to upload any
content to the site. To share info with members of your groups, you'll continue
to be able to do so via email.
?
How can I keep my
Yahoo Groups content?
Photos and files can be saved right from the Yahoo Groups
site, or you can download your data from the Privacy Dashboard.
You'll still be able to communicate with your groups via
email and search for private groups on the site. In addition, admins will
continue to have limited access to group settings and administration tools.
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Still On Yahoo?
If you are also on the Yahoo version of this group you may have seen the notice below from Yahoo.
I already have plans for moving the content (messages, files and photos) of the Yahoo group to this group so it is not necessary for you to save the Yahoo content.
As part of that move all members of the Yahoo group will become members of this group. If you are a member of both groups I recommend you delete your membership in the Yahoo version of this groups to avoid having two memberships in this group.
Bob Chaparro
Moderator
++++
Understand what's changing in Yahoo Groups
Yahoo has made the decision to no longer allow users to upload content to the Yahoo Groups site. Beginning October 21, you won't be able to upload any more content to the site, and as of December 14 all previously posted content on the site will be permanently removed. You'll have until that date to save anything you've uploaded.
What features will go away?
?Files
?Polls
?Links
?Photos
?Folders
?Calendar
?Database
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?Conversations
?Email Updates
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?Message History
What will happen to the site?
The Yahoo Groups site will continue to exist, however, all public groups will be made private or restricted. Any new group members will need to request an invite or be invited by an admin. Admins will still be able to manage various group settings, though some functionality will be limited.
What will happen on October 21st?
On October 21st, you will no longer be able to upload any content to the site. To share info with members of your groups, you'll continue to be able to do so via email.
How can I keep my Yahoo Groups content?
Photos and files can be saved right from the Yahoo Groups site, or you can download your data from the Privacy Dashboard.
You'll still be able to communicate with your groups via email and search for private groups on the site. In addition, admins will continue to have limited access to group settings and administration tools.
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ITTPRODUCTS.COM is great source of sound modules with MP3 samples playable on the website.? The speaker they sell makes plenty of LOUD sound, better than several others I've tried.? For a portable public display (usually a noisey environment), I have a barnyard sounds under a farm scene and get a lot of positive feedback.? Same for a factory set up.? Needs 9V to (I think) 20V AC or DC with the ability to run continuously or only when a button is pushed (train gets to a particular location and triggers a one time station sound, etc.)
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Starting chronoligcally from 1900:
1. Sunset Fruit Company, which became the Corona Citrus Association in 1910
2. W.H. Jameson Packing Company. Jameson had two distinctions:? It never changed hands under Jamesons originall ownership (although in later years it became part of the Corona Citrus Association) and it was one of three Corona Houses to be served by both the AT&SF Ry Co. and the Pacific Electric at the same time.
3. The Flagner Packing House was short lived and disappeared in 1915 to make way for the Exchange Lemon Products plant was built. For unknown reasons, the Sanborn Map Company changed the name to Flagner.
4. Thieme Lemon Products was built in 1905, renamed the Orange Heights Fruit Association in 1907. In the 1940's it became part of the Corona Foothill Lemon Company, which owned several different packing houses under the same name
5. The Corona Packing Company became the Randolph Fruit Company and in 1928 became the Riverside County Select Groves and in the 1940's became part of the Corona Mutual Groves.
6. California Citrus Union, which became the Corona Box Company in the 1920, supplying the Houses with boxes and the groves with crates.
7. The Boston and South Riverside (which was what Corona was called for many years) Fruit Company? became the Orange Heights Fruit Association in 1911.
8. Corona Lemon Company packed for Sunkist and was eventually sold to them in 1956.
9. The Call Fruit Company, later renamed the A.F. Call Estates Orange and Lemon Packing House? was the second House (of three) in Corona to be served by both the AT&SF Ry. Co. and the Pacific Electric at the same time. Call was in business into the 1940's.
10. The Sparr Fruit Company was short lived and a smaller operation which disappeared in the 1940's.
11. The largest citrus facility in Corona was the Exchange Lemon Products Company, built? in 1915. Using cull lemons, the plant produced citric acid, pectin, lemon? oil and lemon juice. This is also where the steam whistle was located.
12. The Orange Heights Orange Association was the last House constructed? in Corona. Built in the 1940's to replace another House lost to fire (a very common death to Houses). This was the third House to be served by both the AT&SF Ry. Co and the Pacific Electric at the same time.
A perspective note: These Houses were all built alongside the Santa Fe main line in a distance of just two miles. At their height, the Santa Fe employed three switching crews for citrus service alone.
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy Tablet
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Thanks, Scott.
What were the names of the packing houses?
Bob Chaparro
Moderator
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Having spent considerable time in the Inland Empire when several houses were? open, i can tell you that the packing houses were *anything* but quiet.?
Starting with the unloading, the field trucks would bring fruit in either bulk or crates. It was then sorted according to what its eventual use would be. Lots of truck traffic noise.
A look inside most of the major houses would reveal either a conveyor system, forklifts, or manual hand trucks being used.?
Equally, most of the major houses would employ either a "flapping belt" system to power the conveyors and machines or in the later years use electrcity as it became available.
Corona, California? for example had several buildings, all devoted to different products, ranging from table fruits, juice fruits and all the way down to powdered lemonade in the much later years. A number of industrial machine noises could be heard. The evaporator for the lemonade was particularly loud.
The reefers were another source of volume. In the later years during the diesel powered refridgerated cars, there were always dozens spotted next to the docks running.?
One of the most unique sounds at the big Corona house was a steam whistle, sounded twice a day to summon the workers at the beginning of both the day and night shifts. The stationary steam plant was originally used to power the house. You could hear that whistle for miles and it was sounded well into the 1970's.
Packing houses were *anything* but quiet!
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy Tablet
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What is your source for the sound modules you mentioned?? Thanks, Stu.
On Fri, Oct 11, 2019, at 1:28 PM, Bill J. via Groups.Io wrote:
I've been slowly adding sound modules to certain buildings to heighten the industrial ambiance.? The question is, how did it sound in a packing house?? Anything special or distinguishing?? Or any sound at all?
Some very small operations are barely a roof and walls;? probably the only sounds were people talking and the occasional thud when boxes were dropped.
What say ye!
Bill Jolitz
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I've been slowly adding sound modules to certain buildings to heighten the industrial ambiance.? The question is, how did it sound in a packing house?? Anything special or distinguishing?? Or any sound at all?
Some very small operations are barely a roof and walls;? probably the only sounds were people talking and the occasional thud when boxes were dropped.
What say ye!
Bill Jolitz
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It sounds more like that the size is what was dictated, so that it would fit through the conveyors and into the ice bunkers of the reefers. You mentioned just that issue when blocks of a larger size, or inconsistent , were used. The weight is a rounded off number to easily account for weight in a piece of rolling stock, so as to account for the amount of produce or other material being carried so the rolling stock isn't overloaded. Meaning that boxes of spinach weigh less than carrots which weigh less that watermelons!?
a quick look online at a conversion program that will convert a cubic foot of an item to weight gives these as a reference:?
1 cubic foot of lettuce weighs 14.78 pounds 1 cubic foot of carrots weighs 33.78 pounds 1 cubic foot of watermelon weighs 40.11 pounds 1 cubic foot of lemon juice weighs 64.38 pounds
maybe these aren't exact but at least you get the idea of the difference of an item between the space it takes up and the amount it actually weighs.
If you really want to try to dig into it, here is a link to USDA info
I should probably get my daughter the math wizard to figure up a chart of general weights per capacity of rolling stock, hmmmm... a box car of a fifty ton capacity has x cubic feet, if totally filled with lettuce would actually weigh _____ .? but the same car with watermelons could only be filled to what cubic foot level (height) in the car so as to not overload it...., ...... :-)
On Wednesday, October 9, 2019, 03:29:10 PM EDT, Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:
I¡¯ve been told that a typical manufactured block of ice used to cool a refrigerator car load weighed about 300 pounds. That seems like a nice round number (too nice) so I did a little digging.
I know that some of the ice pans used to manufacture ice in Santa Fe ice plants were 11¡± x 22¡± x 44¡± so lets call this the dimension of the resulting ice block.? This is the equivalent of 6.16 cubic feet.
I know that a cubic foot of water weighs 62.43 pounds at 32 degrees Fahrenheit and water expands when it converted to ice, so an ice block should weigh less than 62.43 pounds.
Several sources I consulted say (without giving the temperature) that a cubic foot of ice weighs 57.4 pounds.? So 6.16 cubic feet of ice should weight 354 pounds coming out of the pan. Obviously, there would be a loss of volume (and thus weight) by the time a block made it to the icing platform.
Still, that nice even number of 300 pounds persists.
Tony Thompson stated, "I haven't checked all these calculations but this sounds generally right. In the various PFE documents I saw, the 300-lb. size was cited repeatedly for manufactured ice, so PFE must have largely standardized on that. Natural ice was different, in part because you harvested varying thicknesses depending on the freeze. PFE made its natural ice blocks 22 inches square and as thick as was naturally frozen. Those blocks were stored on edge, each layer thus 22 inches high, avoiding the irregularity that could result if they were stored on the broad face.
Private ice companies of course could cut any size they liked of natural ice (Pete Holst told me that Union Ice liked to cut 22 x 28 inch blocks), and private ice companies manufacturing ice could likewise produce any size they liked."
Charlie Schultz stated, "Everything I have read indicated that on the Santa Fe the blocks were 300 pounds and that the blocks measured as you indicated (11" x 22" x 44"). In shipping ice, as from one plant to another, or in loading ice in the bunkers of reefer cars, it was always measured in terms of tons.?
Regarding lake ice, the last superintendent of the Santa Fe's Bakersfield Ice Plant told me that they occasionally received shipments of lake ice.? According to him, the blocks were not always uniformly cut to the normal dimensions and, as a result, they often would not move well on the plant's conveyors and sometimes even caused jams that were difficult to undo."
Charlie also stated, "With one exception, everything I have ever found indicates that the Santa Fe ice plants produced 300- pound blocks of ice. (One article indicated that the Argentine Ice Plant, which was operated by the Railways Ice Company, produced both 300 and 400 pound blocks of ice.)? In fact, it appears that 300 pound blocks of ice were standard not only with the railroads, but also in non-railroad ice plants in the production ice for commercial (non residential) use.? I have never read anything which gave any indication that the 300-pound block of ice weighed anything other than 300 pounds.? At the same time, I have never read anything, or from my personal experiences seen anything, that indicated that the Santa Fe had any quality control measures to insure that a 300-pound block of ice was exactly that."
Bob Chaparro
Moderator
|
I¡¯ve been told that a typical manufactured block of ice used to cool a refrigerator car load weighed about 300 pounds. That seems like a nice round number (too nice) so I did a little digging.
I know that some of the ice pans used to manufacture ice in Santa Fe ice plants were 11¡± x 22¡± x 44¡± so lets call this the dimension of the resulting ice block.? This is the equivalent of 6.16 cubic feet.
I know that a cubic foot of water weighs 62.43 pounds at 32 degrees Fahrenheit and water expands when it converted to ice, so an ice block should weigh less than 62.43 pounds.
Several sources I consulted say (without giving the temperature) that a cubic foot of ice weighs 57.4 pounds.? So 6.16 cubic feet of ice should weight 354 pounds coming out of the pan. Obviously, there would be a loss of volume (and thus weight) by the time a block made it to the icing platform.
Still, that nice even number of 300 pounds persists.
Tony Thompson stated, "I haven't checked all these calculations but this sounds generally right. In the various PFE documents I saw, the 300-lb. size was cited repeatedly for manufactured ice, so PFE must have largely standardized on that. Natural ice was different, in part because you harvested varying thicknesses depending on the freeze. PFE made its natural ice blocks 22 inches square and as thick as was naturally frozen. Those blocks were stored on edge, each layer thus 22 inches high, avoiding the irregularity that could result if they were stored on the broad face.
Private ice companies of course could cut any size they liked of natural ice (Pete Holst told me that Union Ice liked to cut 22 x 28 inch blocks), and private ice companies manufacturing ice could likewise produce any size they liked."
Charlie Schultz stated, "Everything I have read indicated that on the Santa Fe the blocks were 300 pounds and that the blocks measured as you indicated (11" x 22" x 44"). In shipping ice, as from one plant to another, or in loading ice in the bunkers of reefer cars, it was always measured in terms of tons.?
Regarding lake ice, the last superintendent of the Santa Fe's Bakersfield Ice Plant told me that they occasionally received shipments of lake ice.? According to him, the blocks were not always uniformly cut to the normal dimensions and, as a result, they often would not move well on the plant's conveyors and sometimes even caused jams that were difficult to undo."
Charlie also stated, "With one exception, everything I have ever found indicates that the Santa Fe ice plants produced 300- pound blocks of ice. (One article indicated that the Argentine Ice Plant, which was operated by the Railways Ice Company, produced both 300 and 400 pound blocks of ice.)? In fact, it appears that 300 pound blocks of ice were standard not only with the railroads, but also in non-railroad ice plants in the production ice for commercial (non residential) use.? I have never read anything which gave any indication that the 300-pound block of ice weighed anything other than 300 pounds.? At the same time, I have never read anything, or from my personal experiences seen anything, that indicated that the Santa Fe had any quality control measures to insure that a 300-pound block of ice was exactly that."
Bob Chaparro
Moderator
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Orange County Citrus Theme Railroad In N Scale
Orange County Citrus Theme Railroad In N Scale
Here is a link to a Don Vail article on modeling Orange County's citrus industry in 1948 in N scale. There also is a track plan.
The article begins on Page 122. You can jump to that page from the Table of Contents on Page 6.
Overall a good article. However, the statement that empty reefers were set out "both iced and dry depending on the produce" is misleading. The reefers were delivered with or without ice in the bunkers at the direction of the shippers, and if iced the size also was so specified. The shippers decided to ice or not based on the season, predicted weather along the route and cost of the ice weighed against these factors.
The statement the shook wood was used to assemble field boxes for the pickers also is inaccurate. Shook would was used for packing crates. Field boxes were made from heavier wood components as these were reusable containers.
Bob Chaparro
Moderator
?
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Orange County Citrus Theme Railroad In N Scale
Orange County
Citrus Theme Railroad In
N Scale
?
Here is a link to a Don Vail article on modeling Orange County's
citrus industry in 1948 in N scale. There also is a track plan.
?
?
The article begins on Page 122. You can jump to that page
from the Table of Contents on Page 6.
?
Overall a good article. However, the statement that empty reefers
were set out "both iced and dry depending on the produce" is
inaccurate. The reefers were delivered with or without ice in the bunkers at
the direction of the shippers, and if iced the size also was so specified. The
shippers decided to ice or not based on the season, predicted weather along the
route and cost of the ice weighed against these factors.
?
The statement the shook wood was used to assemble field
boxes for the pickers also is inaccurate. Shook would was used for packing
crates. Field boxes were made from heavier wood components as these were
reusable containers.
?
Bob Chaparro
Moderator
?
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Thanks for sharing; great ideas here. Jim
On Monday, October 7, 2019, 01:38:16 AM GMT-4, Ken Adams <smadanek44g@...> wrote:
Some years ago I bought a 36 inch Tichy Ice dock kit. It is still not yet built but Tony Thompson's recent blog posts on ice decks and ice turned my attention to the Tichy #8172? ice blocks that i had purchased for the dock at the same time. I discovered they are square with beveled sides. I have known since my days very long ago as a PFE revenue clerk that the blocks should be oblong on the deck before bunkering and chopping.?Tony's most recent post is?
So what's a poor boy to do with 5 packages of these incorrectly shaped blocks of ice and little hope of finding the Campbell or Sunshine blocks readily available. It takes about 10 minutes to shape a single block as shown in the photo. It's a good thing I am retired and probably will do these in front of the TV when really bored.?
1. I cut the blocks off? the Tichy sprue. I then ensure the sprue joints are fully removed with a square Xacto blade.
2. Glue two blocks together to form an elongated block with lots of glue on the surface and let dry.?
3. Use the small bastard file to eliminate the bevel and square up the blocks. Per Tony's method, I make sure the edges of the block are not sharp. Card the file often as the plastic is soft and will clog the teeth.
4. I use the file to rough up the surface before using very fine grit sandpaper for a final cloudy look. I haven't been able to fully eliminate a clear spot in the center of the block but it can only be seen when viewing the block level and straight on.?
The resulting block has dimensions close to what Tony gives for PFE standard blocks of??3.6 feet by 1.6 feet by 1 foot.
Hope this helps anyone with icing...
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Some years ago I bought a 36 inch Tichy Ice dock kit. It is still not yet built but Tony Thompson's recent blog posts on ice decks and ice turned my attention to the Tichy #8172? ice blocks that i had purchased for the dock at the same time. I discovered they are square with beveled sides. I have known since my days very long ago as a PFE revenue clerk that the blocks should be oblong on the deck before bunkering and chopping.?Tony's most recent post is?
So what's a poor boy to do with 5 packages of these incorrectly shaped blocks of ice and little hope of finding the Campbell or Sunshine blocks readily available. It takes about 10 minutes to shape a single block as shown in the photo. It's a good thing I am retired and probably will do these in front of the TV when really bored.?
1. I cut the blocks off? the Tichy sprue. I then ensure the sprue joints are fully removed with a square Xacto blade.
2. Glue two blocks together to form an elongated block with lots of glue on the surface and let dry.?
3. Use the small bastard file to eliminate the bevel and square up the blocks. Per Tony's method, I make sure the edges of the block are not sharp. Card the file often as the plastic is soft and will clog the teeth.
4. I use the file to rough up the surface before using very fine grit sandpaper for a final cloudy look. I haven't been able to fully eliminate a clear spot in the center of the block but it can only be seen when viewing the block level and straight on.?
The resulting block has dimensions close to what Tony gives for PFE standard blocks of??3.6 feet by 1.6 feet by 1 foot.
Hope this helps anyone with icing...
|
Jesse Hosmer
Bob Chaparro
Stuart O'Guinn
James Babcock
Ken Adams