Dear all,

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I've updated my with information about the basal clades of R-Z156. This includes about 1/3 of R-Z156, namely everyone who isn't in R-DF98 or R-DF96, which are large enough and different enough that I'll deal with them separately and in that order.

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Before this analysis, my assumption from ancient DNA* was that the line between R-U106 and R-Z304 and may be even down to my own R-S1894 stayed in Bohemia during that time, because we had these two ancient DNA results from near the foundation of these haplogroups in almost exactly the same area. However, even after correcting for testing biases, every sub-clade of R-Z156 has a distribution much further west than Bohemia, so it's likely that R-Z156 grew up west of there too. I've always assumed that this was down to either testing biases or later migrations pushing testers preferentially west, but careful examination of our project's current data suggest these ideas can't be supported any more. Consequently, I'm looking at R-Z156 having a role in the Corded Ware Culture of southern Germany, which transitions into the western part of the Unetice culture when this arises.?

*PNL001 = R-U106 to I7196 = R-Z304, maybe R-DF98>S1911>S1894

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Most of R-Z156's smaller branches seem to stay in southern Germany for some time, although there's a possibility that some of them migrate westward to France at an early stage. Some may go eastward as well but, where there's any evidence, the few R-Z156xDF98xDF96 testers south and east of Bohemia seem to be from post-Roman Germanic migrations.

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Cheers,

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Iain.

Hi Ed,

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For R-S3997, I didn't feel that there was enough information to be as specific as, e.g., Gaulish. There's a huge gap of 2500 years between R-A10645 and R-S3997, and R-A10645 is likely to have split and gone multiple ways. There's definitely a significant component that went to France, but whether this included the forefathers of R-S3997, and whether they were in France at a suitable time to be Gauls is too much like guesswork for me. It's a possibility, but I think we'd need to know a lot more about what's going on in your particular line during that intervening 2500 years to say much.

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Actually, that long 2500 year absence of branches says something in itself. Specifically, it means one of two things: either your line nearly died out, or it spend most or all of that time in a region that isn't heavily tested, or possible both! It's very weak evidence, but it increases the possibility that your ancestors didn't reach the well-tested British Isles until sometime around the formation of R-S3997 itself. That would then make a Norman origin slightly more likely than it would otherwise be.

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On the other end, I always take surnames with a great pinch of salt. Patronymns continued in Wales for centuries after the Norman conquest, and took a long time to end up as patronymic surnames (around the 15th century, as I understand). A high percentage of Welsh patronymic surnames simply implies that a large proportion of the haplogroup was in Wales at least as far back as the 15th century, and that's a long way off saying anything about the Norman conquest!

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Cheers,

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Iain.

Hi Kevin,

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I would be very interested to hear others' opinions. However, I would give you the same cautions I give at the start of the document that it's hard to be that precise about these kind of origins. I rather arbitrarily placed the origin of R-Z304 on the map about as far south-west as I could within the realm of the Unetice culture, but the doesn't mean that position is exact. In my opinion, anywhere in the southern half of Germany would be perfectly reasonable, and I can't rule Luxembourg, Alsace, Lorraine, Switzerland, western Austria or Bohemia either. The presence of Jinonice I7196 really narrows down potential origins, but still doesn't allow us to be that precise.

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Cheers,

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Iain.

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