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From Gaul to Wales; a Speculation
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Things have been fairly quiet around here, so I thought I might bring up a subject from the past but with some updates. ? Back in September 2022, I had written about trying to identify the original location of S3997, but at that time we only had four or five BigY testers. There are now twelve BigY testers who are either in haplogroup S3997 or one of the five sub-branches that have since been formed. Two of the sub-branches have documented Welsh ancestry, and the third (BY137478) recently gained a new member who lives in Wales. The two lowest sub-branches¡¯ MRCA was born in America around 1764 (I know because I am of that line).?Additionally, S3997 has since gained a distant relative in the ancient remains found in Colmar, France, known as Colmar 239. These remains are of a man who was identified as having lived sometime between 740 and 390 BCE, was part of the La Tene culture, and was found to be positive for A10645 which is the parent variant of S3997. ? In light of all these updates, I went back and read many of the responses to my 2022 email, and one in particular stood out. It was written by Iain (post #6661) in which he mentioned the lack of YDNA testing in France, and it has caused me to further speculate about the origins of S3997. ? I am now certain that while the MRCA of S3997 most likely lived in Wales, I don¡¯t think the earlier ancestors of that haplogroup were necessarily Celtic Britons. Although the Discover Globetrekker has the ancestors of S3997 entering Britain as early as 1800 BCE, I am exploring the possibility of those ancestors entering much later.?I think, (based on the reported ancestry of some of the testers found to be positive for S3997 via Family Finder as well as the finding of Colmar 239) the ancestors of S3997 may have come from Gaul to Britain in the first century BCE around the time of the Roman invasion. That could still fit with the dating of S3997 being in Wales as early as 300-400 CE as indicated in Globetrekker. ? But again, this is pure speculation. ? Best Regards, Ed |
¿ªÔÆÌåÓýIt is well known that the Irish Sea was a thoroughfare for trading around the coasts of all the regions which touched upon it in the period 600-1100 AD. ? I have cited Katie Hemer's 2013 paper before - but it gives a good idea of how all this worked based on isotope analysis. ? ? Evidence of early medieval trade and migration between Wales and the Mediterranean Sea region ? I do have a full copy of the paper if you are interested.? I would be interested in the surnames of the two with documented Welsh ancestry.? It would be useful to know if the surnames had Patronymic or Cambro-Norman ancestry, although your data suggests the branch point is before the time of known surnames or patronymic names. ? Brian ? -----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of ejsteele56@... Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2024 4:13 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [R1b-U106] From Gaul to Wales; a Speculation ? Things have been fairly quiet around here, so I thought I might bring up a subject from the past but with some updates. ? Back in September 2022, I had written about trying to identify the original location of S3997, but at that time we only had four or five BigY testers. There are now twelve BigY testers who are either in haplogroup S3997 or one of the five sub-branches that have since been formed. Two of the sub-branches have documented Welsh ancestry, and the third (BY137478) recently gained a new member who lives in Wales. The two lowest sub-branches¡¯ MRCA was born in America around 1764 (I know because I am of that line). Additionally, S3997 has since gained a distant relative in the ancient remains found in Colmar, France, known as Colmar 239. These remains are of a man who was identified as having lived sometime between 740 and 390 BCE, was part of the La Tene culture, and was found to be positive for A10645 which is the parent variant of S3997. ? In light of all these updates, I went back and read many of the responses to my 2022 email, and one in particular stood out. It was written by Iain (post #6661) in which he mentioned the lack of YDNA testing in France, and it has caused me to further speculate about the origins of S3997. ? I am now certain that while the MRCA of S3997 most likely lived in Wales, I don¡¯t think the earlier ancestors of that haplogroup were necessarily Celtic Britons. Although the Discover Globetrekker has the ancestors of S3997 entering Britain as early as 1800 BCE, I am exploring the possibility of those ancestors entering much later. I think, (based on the reported ancestry of some of the testers found to be positive for S3997 via Family Finder as well as the finding of Colmar 239) the ancestors of S3997 may have come from Gaul to Britain in the first century BCE around the time of the Roman invasion. That could still fit with the dating of S3997 being in Wales as early as 300-400 CE as indicated in Globetrekker. ? But again, this is pure speculation. ? Best Regards, ? Ed ? |
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Brian,
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Thanks for the article, I look forward to reading it.? As for your question concerning surnames, those that have documented Welsh ancestry include the following surnames: Prichard, Williams, Prytherch, and ap Rheinallt. Other descendant's of S3997 also include the surnames Jones and Griffith.
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Granted, there are others with non-patronymic surnames (Steele, Word, and Lee). However, there do not seem to be any that would be considered to be of Norman origin.
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Thanks again,
Ed |
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Ed you would need some new Big Y testers to break up the huge YSNP block in your Y line!? I used to have a 25 YSNP block and two new testers have come along and broken up the block. They have a made a difference to the TMRCA and both ,I believe, have ancestors from the Isles. °ä¾±²¹°ù¨¢²Ô
On Tuesday, August 20, 2024 at 03:12:35 PM UTC, ejsteele56@... <ejsteele56@...> wrote:
Things have been fairly quiet around here, so I thought I might bring up a subject from the past but with some updates. ? Back in September 2022, I had written about trying to identify the original location of S3997, but at that time we only had four or five BigY testers. There are now twelve BigY testers who are either in haplogroup S3997 or one of the five sub-branches that have since been formed. Two of the sub-branches have documented Welsh ancestry, and the third (BY137478) recently gained a new member who lives in Wales. The two lowest sub-branches¡¯ MRCA was born in America around 1764 (I know because I am of that line).?Additionally, S3997 has since gained a distant relative in the ancient remains found in Colmar, France, known as Colmar 239. These remains are of a man who was identified as having lived sometime between 740 and 390 BCE, was part of the La Tene culture, and was found to be positive for A10645 which is the parent variant of S3997. ? In light of all these updates, I went back and read many of the responses to my 2022 email, and one in particular stood out. It was written by Iain (post #6661) in which he mentioned the lack of YDNA testing in France, and it has caused me to further speculate about the origins of S3997. ? I am now certain that while the MRCA of S3997 most likely lived in Wales, I don¡¯t think the earlier ancestors of that haplogroup were necessarily Celtic Britons. Although the Discover Globetrekker has the ancestors of S3997 entering Britain as early as 1800 BCE, I am exploring the possibility of those ancestors entering much later.?I think, (based on the reported ancestry of some of the testers found to be positive for S3997 via Family Finder as well as the finding of Colmar 239) the ancestors of S3997 may have come from Gaul to Britain in the first century BCE around the time of the Roman invasion. That could still fit with the dating of S3997 being in Wales as early as 300-400 CE as indicated in Globetrekker. ? But again, this is pure speculation. ? Best Regards, Ed |
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°ä¾±²¹°ù¨¢²Ô,
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I agree that it would be nice to know what may have happened genetically between the estimated time of the birth of the MRCA of S3997 (c. 950 BCE) and the estimated birth of the MRCA of its parent variant, A10645 (c. 1600 BCE), however there is no guarantee adding new testers will break up S3997.
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When I received my BigY700 results in January 2022, I had 3 BigY matches, though there were another 20 testers who were all unknown because they were, I believe, part of an academic test not with FTDNA. I now have 9 matches, and with those who have been found to be positive for S3997 from Family Finder tests, we have? 70 descendants from S3997 (only 9 are in downstream haplogroups). Furthermore, since April 2023 we have added 4 branches below S3997. So, we have grown quite a bit.
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Hopefully, some of those who have been found to be positive through Family Finder will take the BigY test. However, I have found through sending emails that some folks are happy with what they already know - and that's their prerogative.
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Best Regards,
Ed
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Ed In my Family Finder pages I entered S3997 in the search box and one of my matches is S3997 positive with a 111 marker YSTR test. He could be in a surname project and you could look at his YSTR pattern to see if it fits any of the branches! He has a Welsh surname, Hughes. An American from Texas was given Irish citizenship after he had a DNA test. It showed that he was 100% Irish. He is the first person ever. I think ancestry is the most precise test for ethnicity. The unknown origin Big Y testers etc. should think about an autosomal test! °ä¾±²¹°ù¨¢²Ô
On Thursday, August 22, 2024 at 09:57:05 PM UTC, <ejsteele56@...> wrote:
°ä¾±²¹°ù¨¢²Ô,
?
I agree that it would be nice to know what may have happened genetically between the estimated time of the birth of the MRCA of S3997 (c. 950 BCE) and the estimated birth of the MRCA of its parent variant, A10645 (c. 1600 BCE), however there is no guarantee adding new testers will break up S3997.
?
When I received my BigY700 results in January 2022, I had 3 BigY matches, though there were another 20 testers who were all unknown because they were, I believe, part of an academic test not with FTDNA. I now have 9 matches, and with those who have been found to be positive for S3997 from Family Finder tests, we have? 70 descendants from S3997 (only 9 are in downstream haplogroups). Furthermore, since April 2023 we have added 4 branches below S3997. So, we have grown quite a bit.
?
Hopefully, some of those who have been found to be positive through Family Finder will take the BigY test. However, I have found through sending emails that some folks are happy with what they already know - and that's their prerogative.
?
Best Regards,
Ed
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°ä¾±²¹°ù¨¢²Ô,
?
Autosomal tests do have some advantages, but like surnames they also have their limitations. It was from an Ancestry test in 2017 that I discovered I was positive for U106 which led to me taking the Y111 test in 2019. However, had it not been for YDNA testing I would not have found out I was positive for S3997, and it was in 2020 that my Y700 test that revealed I likely have Welsh ancestry. My results from the Ancestry test shows 0% for Wales because of the random way in which autosomal genes are passed.?
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So, I am a huge proponent for YDNA testing and particularly the Y700 test. If I could afford it, I would offer to have each one of my matches tested at the Y700 level. However, that is not possible so the best I can do is email them and try to convey to them the need for more Y700 testers.
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Ed
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I have 10% on My test on my father's side but the Welsh group removed me from their group.? I can't prove through paperwork that I am Welsh but everything in my DNA looks in that direction.? I was hoping that another Williams in the group would one day match me.? I believe they should look at our DNA before making these decisions. On Fri, Aug 23, 2024, 9:40?AM ejsteele56 via <ejsteele56=[email protected]> wrote:
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Wayne,
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I don't know which Welsh group you are referring to, but suggest if you have not done so, to join the Williams Surname Project and the Welsh Patronymics groups. They are both good groups where you can compare your YDNA results to others as well as ask questions. If I may ask, which test(s) have you taken?
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Ed |
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Ed The unknown origin testers are a pain. I don't have Welsh autosomal DNA but I have matches in Wales. They are beyond the autosomal threshold. I know where my MDKA comes from and ancestry is very accurate for me. The FF customers who are getting S3997 don't know how lucky they are. S3997 is well down the tree. My matches are getting U106, Z156 and S5520 and I know they are further down the tree looking at their YSTR patterns. °ä¾±²¹°ù¨¢²Ô
On Friday, August 23, 2024 at 01:40:25 PM UTC, ejsteele56@... <ejsteele56@...> wrote:
°ä¾±²¹°ù¨¢²Ô,
?
Autosomal tests do have some advantages, but like surnames they also have their limitations. It was from an Ancestry test in 2017 that I discovered I was positive for U106 which led to me taking the Y111 test in 2019. However, had it not been for YDNA testing I would not have found out I was positive for S3997, and it was in 2020 that my Y700 test that revealed I likely have Welsh ancestry. My results from the Ancestry test shows 0% for Wales because of the random way in which autosomal genes are passed.?
?
So, I am a huge proponent for YDNA testing and particularly the Y700 test. If I could afford it, I would offer to have each one of my matches tested at the Y700 level. However, that is not possible so the best I can do is email them and try to convey to them the need for more Y700 testers.
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Ed
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Ed? There are two S3997 testers in the Hughes DNA project. ? °ä¾±²¹°ù¨¢²Ô
On Friday, August 23, 2024 at 01:40:25 PM UTC, <ejsteele56@...> wrote:
°ä¾±²¹°ù¨¢²Ô,
?
Autosomal tests do have some advantages, but like surnames they also have their limitations. It was from an Ancestry test in 2017 that I discovered I was positive for U106 which led to me taking the Y111 test in 2019. However, had it not been for YDNA testing I would not have found out I was positive for S3997, and it was in 2020 that my Y700 test that revealed I likely have Welsh ancestry. My results from the Ancestry test shows 0% for Wales because of the random way in which autosomal genes are passed.?
?
So, I am a huge proponent for YDNA testing and particularly the Y700 test. If I could afford it, I would offer to have each one of my matches tested at the Y700 level. However, that is not possible so the best I can do is email them and try to convey to them the need for more Y700 testers.
?
Ed
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°ä¾±²¹°ù¨¢²Ô,
?
Thanks for pointing out the members in the Hughes Surname Project. One of them does show up in my matches and has taken the Y700 test, but since the Big Y STR Differences box is not filled in, I'm guessing his results are not finalized yet. The other one who shows as being in haplogroup S3997 is likely a close relative, but has not taken the Y700 test. Nor does he show up in any of my matches indicating he is more of distant match than what FTDNA allows at the STR levels.
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I greatly appreciate the information.
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Ed |
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Ed? I found some of my branch matches in the most common Welsh surname projects! They have similar YSTR patterns to mine. Even though they are not Big Y tested I am pretty sure which downstream branches they belong to within my group! °ä¾±²¹°ù¨¢²Ô
On Saturday, August 24, 2024 at 01:59:39 AM UTC, <ejsteele56@...> wrote:
°ä¾±²¹°ù¨¢²Ô,
?
Thanks for pointing out the members in the Hughes Surname Project. One of them does show up in my matches and has taken the Y700 test, but since the Big Y STR Differences box is not filled in, I'm guessing his results are not finalized yet. The other one who shows as being in haplogroup S3997 is likely a close relative, but has not taken the Y700 test. Nor does he show up in any of my matches indicating he is more of distant match than what FTDNA allows at the STR levels.
?
I greatly appreciate the information.
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Ed
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Hello Ed The way that DYS492=13 defines U106 there markers in our YSTR results that determine our downstream branches. One marker along with DYS492 is enough to define my branch going back 2,300 ybp!
On Tuesday, August 20, 2024 at 03:12:35 PM UTC, ejsteele56@... <ejsteele56@...> wrote:
Things have been fairly quiet around here, so I thought I might bring up a subject from the past but with some updates. ? Back in September 2022, I had written about trying to identify the original location of S3997, but at that time we only had four or five BigY testers. There are now twelve BigY testers who are either in haplogroup S3997 or one of the five sub-branches that have since been formed. Two of the sub-branches have documented Welsh ancestry, and the third (BY137478) recently gained a new member who lives in Wales. The two lowest sub-branches¡¯ MRCA was born in America around 1764 (I know because I am of that line).?Additionally, S3997 has since gained a distant relative in the ancient remains found in Colmar, France, known as Colmar 239. These remains are of a man who was identified as having lived sometime between 740 and 390 BCE, was part of the La Tene culture, and was found to be positive for A10645 which is the parent variant of S3997. ? In light of all these updates, I went back and read many of the responses to my 2022 email, and one in particular stood out. It was written by Iain (post #6661) in which he mentioned the lack of YDNA testing in France, and it has caused me to further speculate about the origins of S3997. ? I am now certain that while the MRCA of S3997 most likely lived in Wales, I don¡¯t think the earlier ancestors of that haplogroup were necessarily Celtic Britons. Although the Discover Globetrekker has the ancestors of S3997 entering Britain as early as 1800 BCE, I am exploring the possibility of those ancestors entering much later.?I think, (based on the reported ancestry of some of the testers found to be positive for S3997 via Family Finder as well as the finding of Colmar 239) the ancestors of S3997 may have come from Gaul to Britain in the first century BCE around the time of the Roman invasion. That could still fit with the dating of S3997 being in Wales as early as 300-400 CE as indicated in Globetrekker. ? But again, this is pure speculation. ? Best Regards, Ed |